I Should've Done This Ages Ago! - Upgrading to an In-Wall Optical HDMI Cable 

Don't moan when your Internet goes down and you can't watch TV.. 😉 😂

You keep saying this as if internet outages are super common and just something you need to deal with, if my internet connection goes down I have bigger problems than not being able to watch Sky channels, like, being able to do my job as I work from home... Worst case I can just watch Freeview. Satellite isn't flawless either, I regularly had outages caused by snow or other severe weather - more frequent than any internet outages.

@@camerongray1515 If you don't like people's criticism don't make videos, simple. 🤷‍♂️

I'm totally open to criticism, I'm just pointing out that you've commented the same thing several times and ignored my responses...

@@camerongray1515 You ignore people when they tell you that you speak too quickly !

Thank you very much! "So Yeah" have definitely become my go-to filler words!

eARC isn't a huge deal for me, none of my equipment currently supports it but standard ARC is fine - I rarely use Freeview or TV apps and when I do, standard ARC is fine and works over the cable that I've installed. It's more important for people who heavily use apps on their TV itself however I tend to use external devices for this. As for switching devices on/off, that's done by CEC which also works over the cable I have installed here.

@@camerongray1515 Yeah, right! CEC is there for you. Nice! Thanks for your insightful reply and enjoy your setup!

🤯 I should do that! Euro module stuff aren't really available where I live, but I'll still try to get them as they look nicer than the Keystone stuff that's really available here, and I've had Euro module stuff imported in the past for network jacks.

It's definitely something I've considered (I did a full network install in flexible conduit for a friend), I don't think I'd necessarily do the entire install in it but I think when I next repaint the living room I'll possibly install some flexible conduit from in the walls up into the ceiling (accessible via the downlight holes) purely for the HDMI cables to make future upgrades easier. I think the big lesson I've learned from this is to not pack lots of cables into holes and instead leave enough free space to reduce the friction when pulling the cables back out.

Came to say exactly the same thing! No idea why people don't run conduit when they have the chance... Makes future upgrades a 10 min job with some fish tape 😎

ARC uses the same conductors as HDMI Ethernet so generally speaking, if a cable is listed as supporting Ethernet (as this one is) it will also support ARC.

I did actually see the FiberCommand stuff and was tempted however it's not available directly in the UK so I'd have had to import it and the cost was significant. That said, if I was doing a new install from scratch I'd definitely consider some sort of MPO terminated fibre solution like they offer to make upgrades much simpler (assuming they continue to develop suitable transceivers for new HDMI standards).

@@camerongray1515 is kind of where I am right now.. (months away from getting a new 3-4-bed in the UK). Right now I am trying to get the most optimal (future-proof) solution (copper vs fibre is an easy choice as the cost won't be that much of an issue). I plan to stay there for at least 5-10y.. all of your content is really good advice on the subject... Have you come across anything similar to what FiberCommand is offering but in the UK?

It's from the IKEA FJÄLLBO range (www.ikea.com/gb/en/search/products/?q=fjallbo). I made a video about it here: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-eJO6HIaOYTg.html. Unfortunately I suspect that they have discontinued the 2 door version of the cabinet that I bought since it's showing as out of stock and when I ordered mine it was listed as "Last chance to buy" however there are other items in the range that are still available.

That's annoying, I suppose the difference is that in the US an apartment is generally a rental type arrangement. In the UK, my flat is owned by me (so I suppose closer to a condo in US terminology) so while some stuff is owned communally (some of the drainage/water supply and common areas like corridors), I can realistically do anything I want in my own flat as long as it's compliant with building regulations.

Originally I connected it to the TV to get around the problem however I'd rather keep the Sky box in the cabinet along with my AV receiver - Eventually I plan on setting up a bunch of HDBaseT equipment to route HDMI devices to TVs in other rooms and for this I'd need all of the HDMI devices in one place, hence keeping them all in the cabinet.

Yeah, it's to keep the cables hidden, I can't stand wall mounted TVs with cables hanging down the wall, at that point I'd rather have it on a stand. The cable runs from the TV down to my A/V receiver (amplifier) in the cabinet in the corner of the room. This cabinet also contains all of my other A/V devices such as my Sky box, the A/V receiver handles switching between all of the different devices and sends the video from the selected device to the TV over the in-wall HDMI cable.

The pattress boxes are just standard Appleby dry lining boxes and the accessories are from the MK Dimensions range. However, these are products designed for the UK market so they aren't suitable for use outside the UK and some Asian/Middle Eastern countries that also use UK style electrical accessories.

The hole that the cable runs through is too tight to just pull it out, the friction is too high to really be able to pull it and even if that was possible, it would be tricky to get the larger HDIM connector through without first removing other cables from the hole first to free up space.

@@camerongray1515 thanks, I did think the head of the connector might snag You do a lot of cutting to make it look clean. Lots would just connect via under carpet 😂 Interesting to see and hear your thinking thru of things. I admit I won't do similar as I am rubbish at DIY 🙈

That was my original thought however unfortunately they're prohibitively expensive. There are slightly cheaper options that use multi-core fibre cables terminated with MPO connectors which are a bit cheaper since they're able to utilise multiple fibres at slower speeds rather than needing to send the full speed signal down a single fibre. Unfortunately they are still relatively expensive since they need to have a fibre tranceiver on each end to handle CEC/ARC.etc whereas a cable like this can use copper for those. Definitely something I'd be looking at in the future if budget allowed.

I've tried HDMI boosters but they didn't help. They'll only really work for repeating a signal when joining two cables that work fine individually. In this case, the single 5m cable in the wall alone struggles with 4K HDR so there's nothing a repeater can do since the signal will either be already degraded by the time it reaches the repeater (if it's connected to the TV end of the cable) or will degrade after the repeater (if it's connected at the receiver end of the cable). A cable with a repeater in the middle could work over a longer distance than a single copper cable however this has the same disadvantages as an optical cable (directionality and lack of compatibility with future standards) while still suffering from the signal degredation disadvantage of copper cable.

I could have but I'm not a fan of doing that for a couple of reasons - technically it's not a wiring zone according to BS7671, arguably this wouldn't apply for HDMI and only if it was a mains cable but I prefer to run all cables in accordance with it for consistency and since I feel it's "best practice". Removing the skirtings would likely also cause more decorative damage than the two holes in the ceiling. I'm not sure how the ones in the living room are attached however the bathroom ones were both nailed and glued on which was a nightmare when I had to take them off to fit LVT flooring. Best case they're only nailed on and can be pulled off however this would still result in a crack in the paint/caulk along the top of the board once it's back on which would need filled as well as nail holes on the front of the board that would need filled and painted along with any joints between 2 boards which given then length of that wall, there will definitely be some joins.

@@camerongray1515 so simply put …..you would rather buy an expensive digital light cable, take a risk that you can’t get the wires out and replaced with new optical cable than have a simple cracking job at the top of the sleeting board…because you want to work to a Standered that does not apply to what you are doing? Do you know why they have BS7671 standards? A) to stop death with electrical stuff, and to standardise for all possible case. Non of that applies to the job you are doing. Hay it’s your money and your time and this time you got lucky with the holes being the only thing you need. Simply put all what you wanted could be achieved much simpler….but it’s your house/ flat….good luck…. I estimate you added at least 4 to 5 meters of extra cable you did not need. Floor to ceiling is 2.5m + another 2.5m for the other drop. You could of got away with may be 1m + the run from outlet box to the other outlet box. Loved your vidios…thanks…but it was ass about face how you did it. I think if you asked anybody on the street and gave them the ceiling option or the floor option …99.99 would go for the simpler less expensive and less risky option. Good vid thanks

The cable was under £24 and I knew I'd be able to get the cables out with those two access holes since I was the one that ran the original cables in the first place. Even where a standard doesn't apply, there is still a sense of "best practice" and ultimately it's down to the judgement of the installer. Personally I don't want to run cables where people wouldn't expect them and behind a skirting board is one of them. My point is also that a crack along the top of a skirting board and between any joins as well as needing to repaint any nail heads is actually more effort to fix than patching the plasterboard in the ceiling. The paint on the skirting boards is old and has yellowed over time so if I were to just paint the parts that needed it it would stand out, so I'd need to repaint all the skirting boards and door frames in the room. Then any damage to the wall from prying the skirting board off would also be harder to fix due to the coloured paint whereas the ceiling is just plain white. It's also possible that the skirtings are also glued on which would be a nightmare to fix. In comparison, drilling those access holes took 5 minutes, filling them took under 20. I can guarantee if I hired an electrician to do this work, they would have done the same thing, or ran it horizontally notching out the wall, they would not have ran it behind the skirting boards.

@@camerongray1515 Good points. Did you consider that the 240v electrical power could cause interference to the picture or sound? In sound and Picture, they recommend no high voltage is run next to such cables? This may be your issue of picture and sound issues... Just saying, maybe you need to red the standards for sound and picture rather than following electrical standards?

While ideally you would try to keep them separate, there are always practical considerations around how far apart you realistically can get them. All of the audio cables in the wall are speaker level which aren't a concern from an interference perspective as they're already a high power, amplified signal. You're only likely to get mains interference on audio cables if they're line level which I don't have here. As for the HDMI, sure, it ran near to some mains for approximately 1m, but this isn't really different to what you'd find behind most TVs where cables end up getting bunched up, then think of how many commercial installs there are with pole mounted displays where the HDMI and mains needs to run through the same pole. I've previously tried plugging the TV into an extension lead and turning off the socket behind the TV (as it's fed from a switched FCU) and it's still exhibited the same issue which makes me confident with ruling out the mains as the source of interference. The issues are more than likely due to signal attenuation/degradation due to the length of the cable.

I'm actually considering using HDBaseT for a future project to send video to my bedroom and office TVs over the existing CAT6 cables but it's not something I'd use on my main TV. HDBaseT 2.0 only has a bandwidth of 8Gb/s which isn't enough for a full 4K60 HDMI 2.0 signal with HDR. Therefore to send such a signal, the system will use some level of compression. This isn't necessarily a bad thing and will be fine for my bedroom TV, but it's not something I'd want to do for my main TV when it's easily within the distance of a regular HDMI cable which would give full uncompressed quality. HDBaseT 3.0 promises full HDMI 2.0 bandwidth however this would require CAT6A cable whereas the cabling I have is only regular CAT6. As for MoCA, I'm not aware of any MoCA compliant hardware that can be used to carry HDMI, just Ethernet, and it looks like that even at the most recent standard it can only go up to 10Gb/s which wouldn't be enough for HDMI 2.0 which can go up to 18Gb/s.

Im running a hdbaseT on cat5e 4k@60hz around 30 meter.

I suppose it would work as a last resort but not something I'd ever recommend. Powerline networks have very limited bandwidth meaning that for HDMI they will only run at lower resolutions and will employ heavy compression in order to work. Maybe acceptable for a small bedroom TV but not something I'd ever use for my main TV where I need full uncompressed 4K60 with HDR, ARC and CEC.

@@camerongray1515 Is this also the case with wireless HDMI and HDBaseT?

Wireless HDMI will almost certainly employ some sort of compression due to the limited bandwidth available (Even HDMI 1.0 used around 4gbps for video transmission up to 1080p60 so that's not happening over a wireless system any time soon!). HDBaseT is generally a lot better since it has higher bandwidth due to being a physical cable (Versions 1 and 2 running at 8gbps) meaning that it'll be uncompressed for 1080p or 4K30 (basically matching the HDMI 1.4 spec). For things like 4K60, these can either use HDBaseT 3.0 which can go up to 16gbps but requires CAT6A cable. Alternatively, HDBaseT 2.0 kit can run at 4K60 by employing lightweight compression but these are unlikely to be noticeable in most settings, not something I'd use for my main display where running a direct HDMI cable is possible but will still give a great quality picture. In fact, I'm actually planning on setting up some sort of matrix switched HDBaseT setup to route HDMI video from devices in the living room to my bedroom and office so stay tuned for a future video with significant HDMI bodging!

@@camerongray1515 Thank you for the information, HDBaseT sounds like something I can make use of as well. I look forward to seeing how your next project will turn out.

I can't say I've ever encountered noise due to speaker cables as you described, it's always been down to the source device producing some level of noise or one of the line level cables picking up noise before the amplification. Speaker level signals are relatively high power and therefore the effect of any induced interference is minimal. With my setup here, the only noise produced when the receiver is muted is a very slight hiss that can only be heard if you place your ear right up against the tweeters. This noise is only audible with the receiver powered on and the speaker connected to it, indicating to me that the sound is coming from the receiver and not anything being picked up by the cable. There is also no noticeable difference in this noise between the closest speaker that's connected over around 2m of cable, and the furthest which is on the end of around 10m of cable which is running in amongst mains cables feeding the ceiling lights. This is also why in pro audio setups, balanced signals are commonly used for line and microphone level signals but never for amplified speaker signals.

@@camerongray1515 Not just by my experience but also in the audio forums a having power cable routed with speaker cable is a big no-no. You're obviously very fortunate not to be able to pick up any interference noise. I personally wouldn't risk it, from my experience it can also happen intermittently as well. I was only advising you to turn the TV/AVR on mute/pause so you could hear more clearly but actually it really doesn't matter whether you've got it on pause or unpause, the noise is still going to be there regardless. That's the thing about this interference noise it's kinda hard to pinpoint it.. the noise could be right in front of you and yet the culprit could be from the other side of the room or worse still the whole room can sound as if it is electrified 🤯 I used to have the same outlook as yourself that's why the second set of the cables I chose were the 14 gauge unshielded cables (Amazon basics) and when compared to my previous 18-gauge cables even though there was a slight improvement in sound quality, the unwanted noise still remained! After I dug a little deeper and realised the unshielded cables I was using were acting as antennas for attracting RF interference (EMI) and not forgetting... the longer the cable the better the antenna! Probably explains why when I used to disconnect my height cables my noise floor used to go down. You can do a simple test to see if they're on the right track... watch a movie for 10-15 minutes then turn the system off, disconnect your height and surround cables then start the movie again and see if you can hear if your noise floor has been lowered? Some people can put up with the noise but for me I couldn't tolerate it and I thought I'd mention it just the case you have the same feelings! BTW wish I had your talent for making videos coz they're enjoyable. Good luck 👍

​@@totalplonker824 If that's the case then I suspect you've either had really bad luck or have some sort of super sensitive speakers or something. Or the noise isn't coming from the speaker cables and is instead coming from the amplifier. I'm generally super sensitive to noise (I'm actually about to replace all of my smart bulbs because of a very slight whine they produce) yet I hear literally nothing that you've described. As for the mains wiring, this is simply a case of practicality - the speaker cables need to to run through the ceiling, as does the lighting wiring and I can't easily separate them without literally pulling the ceiling down. Speaker level signals are not anywhere near as susceptible to interference as line level signals are so this isn't an issue in my opinion. If I were to run a line level signal in such a situation, I'd want to run it balanced. From what I can see, the only place I see any real mention of shielded speaker cables is in "audiophile" circles which I personally ignore almost entirely! Then when it comes to comparing the difference, with audio you have to be extremely careful to avoid any bias/placebo effect, especially after spending a small fortune on cables. I'd be interested to see the results of a fully blind A/B test between shielded and unshielded cables and I'd bet that there would be no discernible difference in noise level.

@@camerongray1515 but isn't that the trouble with audio, one doesn't realise what ones putting up with until one hears something else 🤔 During the pandemic I auditioned three separate 9 channel AVRs, the Denon 3600/6500 and my current one which is the arcam avr20 and even though when using the latter there was a little less distortion noise, the interference noise still remained! And I suppose I don't have to tell you how careful I am with my cables lol. There is always the other possibility I might be just a little oversensitive, after all they do say audio is subjective! Anyway good luck to you and to your channel. You never know this could be useful to you or maybe someone else in the future.

I highly doubt this will be an issue, similar hardware is used in mission critical fibre optic transceivers used in networking without issue. A lot of the issues around LED lifespan comes from things like cheap lightbulbs where fewer LEDs are overdriven at high current to achieve maximum brightness. It's highly likely that the cable will have been upgraded to a new standard long before the LED lifespan becomes an issue. I terms of running it along a different route, not sure how "on the floor" would work here? Sure I could have run it horizontally along from the socket and then up to the TV and it would have been a bit shorter however this would have required me to drill holes in at least 3 wall studs which would have required several large holes in the painted wall. I also prefer to run cables following the same route as everything else, which in the case of this flat is vertically up from the accessory and through the ceiling.

@@camerongray1515 Maybe the LED's in these are run at a much lower power as yes it is usually lighting where they start to degrade. I meant on the carpet not in the wall. But I don't care what it looks like as long as it works but that's me.

For me running the cable along the carpet isn't an option - Everything is installed so that there are no cables on show, I definitely wouldn't be able to stand a cable dangling down from the TV and running across the floor. For me, if running cables through the wall aren't an option, I wouldn't wall mount the TV and would keep it on a stand - I can't stand it when people wall mount a TV and leave cables trailing at all sorts of angles down to sockets/devices sitting below it.

@@camerongray1515 That's why I said it's just me 😀, I have a PC where I can remove anything without cutting a cable tie.

Huh?

They're known as "Euro Modules" and are a pretty common standard in the UK, Europe and some Asian countries. The US on the other hand tend to use keystone jacks (which aren't as common over here) so I'm not sure how widely available euro module products would be in the US. Of course you could import them but we also have different sized pattress boxes over here so you'd end up needing to also install a UK sized pattress box which will likely result in a lot of swearing from the next person who comes along and wants to install a US form factor accessory onto it.

He upgraded voice bandwidth a wee while ago. I wouldn't worry about it. You'll get used to it

I'm sure you can just use RU-vid playback speed controls, as I've previously used it for some RU-vid users who speak a little too slowly for my liking.

@@kbhasi should set it to 2x on this, see if you can handle it