I Went to a Hillclimb and Saw Some Really Weird Aerodynamics... 

James Mullen thats exactly what those are.

James Mullen wouldn't be hard to modify its position to make it a true twin

Dylan Zrim it's not meant to be a twin.

Dylan Zrim and the cars in historic class musst run former wingtypes. If they put a multi Wing on it they wouldn't be allowed to Start in the class they are

Yup, the wing is exactly the same on my car from the mid 90’s. It’s single element adjusted from the rear and suits the cars of that period.

While I'm no engineer, I was thinking something similar. It occurred to me right away that the efficiency wouldn't matter that much and that it should still generate the downforce desired because at the tracks and speeds these guys are running at, the cars aren't going fast enough or fast enough for long enough for efficiency to matter that much.

Yup, came here to say exactly this. Basically a single element wing but only the back part is adjustable.

Haha for sure! Although personally I would have just stuck some play doh on it, far more aerodynamic.

negative, the real answer is the carbon fiber on top of the aluminum reduces the weight of the whole piece.. duh

They Should of just added stickers, golf ball effect and +5 Bhp for every sticker as well

Smart guy though it has to be said, painted car red which gives an extra 50hp. Now he just needs Alonso to gain 6 tenths.

Yeah

We learn from failure. Better it be from others!

I know I’m late, but I think what Kyle wanted to say was they could’ve just left a bit of gap if they’re making a multi-element wing. It might not be the main purpose for their application but free benefits are welcomed, right?

KYLE.DRIVES really awesome! Love it! :D

Awesome video!

They're just winging it..

very much enjoyed brother! In fact, this is a subject brought up in convo recently so I'll be happy to share with my friends! Basically I was explaining to them that more often than not, you'll spot street tuners of every variety adding on off the shelf aero parts that do not work at all with the rest of the car, because aero is liken to writing a song; there has to be a beginning, middle, and end; change one part of the beginning of the song, and you have to make adjustments to the middle and end to make sure it flows properly, because it's all interconnected :) When I'm at a point in my life to invest the $ I want into car art, I'll be consulting my car friends, aero friends, and conduct scientific testing of modifications; otherwise it's all a farce!

+Artist Weekly thats a great analogy

Neil Rosh a most rational rebuttal.

Thank you. I was thinking of the front wing after making this response and the bent plate third element of the front wing may in fact function as a wind deflector for the front tyre. I suspect that the Reynold's numbers would be too high for a plate aerofoil to function well, though the actual angle of attack is not relative to the direction of the vehicle, but rather to the flow from the preceding elements. The easiest way to find out if it works would be to discuss it with the driver and find out what sort of data he keeps and if he notices a difference and what sort of difference that is.

If it works, it works and would not have taken much effort to talk to the driver/owner. It is a old, heavy car and far from the current ultra-light CF turbo-hayabusa powered HC cars.

You saved me a lots of effort to write very similar comment, thank you ! Sad thing is that people dont know anything about videos they make. Cheers !

@@urospetrovic5228 - This video is two years old. The guy that made it has now been working in F1 for over a year. Sad people don't know anything about the comments they make. Cheers! ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE--VqQ0I349ns.html

Hmm I think the perspective on the camera is making it look at less alpha than it actually is, have a look here plus.google.com/u/1/b/103663408131824188800/photos/photo/103663408131824188800/6342307370224214914?icm=false&authkey=CIOn_-fWm_PlEw it's really upwards of 60 deg flap angle, on a first element with a pretty flat angle. The final edge of the surface was probably closer to 80 degrees, no way is that staying attached with only two elements! The flap was not well profiled either, very sharp edged (a result of a fairly homemade carbon construction). You are correct that the multi element construction of F1 front wings on the inboard side is critical in Y250 core size and swirl ratio control, this is why you see a lot of teams doing things like re-combining the elements at the inboard tip to get different effects. On the outboard side, in front of the tyre, you may notice that the wing often splits into more elements. This is to deal with the severe adverse pressure gradient experienced. 3 elements would be plenty in the inboard section to maintain attachment (in fact they often could get away with 2 in a low alpha config), but 6 helps a lot infront of the tyre, particularly with ensuring consistency under changing wing heights. So yes, the 6 elements on an F1 wing aren't necessary to get that angle of attack in non tyre affected air, but I was more using it as a demonstration to help the average car enthusiast understand the concept. Someone who understands, such as yourself, clearly wont need assistance ;) Although, I'm curious as to how many mesh elements you have/what your expansion ratio is to get Y+

Ah, yep. It was definitely a perspective issue. No way that flow is staying attached. Mesh count is about 50 million tets on the full car simulations. Luckily I have access to my universities computer cluster, so solving 50 million elements doesn't take more than two hours or so. The prism layer method (Last Aspect Ratio) I'm using in ANSYS doesn't have ratio control unfortunately (I normally define expansion ratio, but I haven't been able to get over 5 layers using that method without it failing). Unfortunately ANSYS doesn't give much information about how exactly it works (besides that aspect ratio part of it), but I believe it tries to keep the expansion between 1.1 and 1.2 based on my experiences using it. Thanks for the side note. I've been planning on doing some basic ride height studies for the full car (we have an undertray too, so we have all the ride height sensitivity) in addition to some dive simulations (still waiting on my suspension guy to give me max dive angle under braking for that). Also, max wing height is a very interesting way to draw the line... lol

I meeeeean, that's pretty much a flat plate! xD

Hey James! Saw your comment after making mine also pertaining to Formula SAE! ALL THE AERO!!!

@@jameswright4732 lol my university license only allows 1 million elements. I wanna know how long that took to solve. One of my hw projects took 32 comp hrs

The 'copy someone else's' mindset is quite prevalent in lower level motorsport in AU, why I don't know, half the fun for me is working things out . And anyone who gets upset about expert comments on their car needs to put their ego back in it's bag and appreciate the free advice.

It's when the advice comes in a tone that says "I'm better than you" is what makes people angry.

Yup or when the "engineer" spends 45mins explaining to you how shit your engine in your car is... On a high note while the dude was talking shit about my engine his dropped parts of a piston through the oil pan on his chevy and caught on fire....

Exactly. And half these guys just put something on because they thought it looked cool (fair enough) and don’t understand even the most basic aero principles.

Makes sense, I was wondering how many of these cars were works in progress! Techically speaking, the lower the speed the more downforce you need, otherwise all the aero parts are doing is adding weight, robbing you of acceleration and grip. There is a critical downforce point where they become useful, but below a certain level you might as well unbolt everything if the track is low speed. Take a look at some FSAE cars for example. If you need a hand with aero shoot me an email at kyle@jkfaero.com Thanks for the compliments! Did this video get shared on one of the hillclimb pages or something? I seem to be getting a lot of messages/comments from people who were competing there recently.

What material did you use to make that splitter?

The first one was made from 2 layers of 3mm alucobond (~3mm layer of polyethelene on the inside of 2 very thin aluminium layers), very easy to cut, and with cross bracing it reasonably sturdy.

The exposed front of the tyre reminded me of the aero on the old super touring cars. I think the theory was the spinning tyre created a high pressure zone that pushed down on the splitter.

What debris?

That what i thought. Compare old car with latest F1.

If this guy turns up at any other hillclimb in NSW to video & then rubbish amateur racers on the internet I have been told he will (seriously) get thumped. He is now known to us, considered a know-all smart arse, and is absolutely not welcome at any of our events. Even if you are (as he thinks), the world's genius aero engineer - you surely would try gently talking to drivers suggesting ways to improve their cars - rather than using them as a basis for international ridicule. And for those of you who worship him???? Have a look at the video of the ridiculous wing he stuck on his truck. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-x2K1bPEWs7o.html

@@BillsBuildandRace settle down karen, its a free country and last time I just checked.... thumping someone at a racetrack will get you a Motorsport Australia (or AASA) life ban

@@adamrbriggsy72 If you knew the guy - like REALLY knew the guy, you might have a different opinion. Remember - this guy is a local to these racers. And for the record I have never punched anyone in my entire life. That just illustrated the level of anger these racers felt over this arrogant video of his. Any if it's a free country, then I too am en-tilted to my opinion, and trust me buddy, if you ever come to an MGCCN hillclimb meeting and ask the guys about this, you will discover I am in large company, and quite restrained in what I said compared to them.

Why wouldn't you want an adjustable dual element wing? There's a reason why an aircraft uses flaps and not a spoiler to achieve this, and that is because it is not being actuated continuously. They are used to steer, not to sustain flight. In this situation, a dual element wing would provide a cleaner exit of air and increase the volume of air under the top wing, making significantly more downforce, especially with such a low aspect ratio. That wing is just a drag monger. It has the drag of a low aspect ratio with the downforce of a high aspect ratio. As for the formula car, those front flaps do not connect the wake over the front wheels. They don't behave like a gurney either. They stall underneath and make no attempt to connect flow over the top. The drag it makes probably negates any incremental down force gains by the lift it creates. F1 cars do not have multiple diffusers and they are not exempt from ordinary drag/downforce balancing strategies. It is impossible to cheat the effects of drag without active aerodynamics. As for the middle "element" of that front wing: it's doing the exact opposite of what you've suggested. The reason for multi element wings is to increase low pressure under the the wing while avoiding air separation. The first element needs to cleanly facilitate air to the second, and so on. Such a configuration is very sophisticated for it to be effective. This instead was clearly done by hobbyists without serious intentions of increasing grip. Also, I believe the guy who's talking in the video is a doctor of aerospace engineering or very close in status.

@@DB-fn3fz couldn't be bothered to read your whole comment but it is probably to keep it period correct so it can run in the class it wants to

@@ollierichards6508 Thanks, Sherlock.

quite a few hillclimb cars seem to go for a brute "downforce at all cost" approach, so it may be less rlevant to deal with efficiency concerns there

Mosibfu nope still used

They will break the speed limit!! 35mph limit on Guernsey yet there is no end of exotics and big superbikes as well. In the diesel Seat renter I once got up to 40mph!!

Marcus M. This was four months ago but I'm still going to reply; that front wing had a curve that was approaching vertical. Even at say 30mph, the airflow will not be continuous after coming off the trailing edge of an almost upright wing. That would create drag because the streamlining is ruined. If it was at most about 50 degrees then that might not have been a problem for this racing event.

It is intuitive IMO. :)

"the car is probably 10 years off the pace" -pretty sure you just made his point... And of course, a mid 90s F3000 is the pinnacle of man's aerodynamic achievement, and shall never be bettered. You should talk to a qualified aerodynamicist, you might learn something.

All 5 point you mentioned are very useful in their way as other comments explained.

last phrase is key , hill climb is in many ways different . a lower speeds b rough upsetting course and other considerations !

Ringwood Park Motor Complex, Balickera, NSW, Australia

@@aussieseanc oh. No way!!! Damn, can’t get you to cast your eye over my go kart then 😂

Well, the car was a Dallara ex F3000 car, so the aero would have been decently sorted for that, but those secondary flaps appear to have been just added by the owner after he bought the car, as they look very hand made compared to the rest of the car... But yes the rest of the car had its aero down! Thanks for the compliments!

No because he has no clue what hes talking about when it comes to hill climb