IAI Lavi; The Little Lion That Didn’t Make It…Maybe 

You check the particulars and find that the J-10 is without doubt came from transferred Lavy blueprints - modified for Chinese tastes. Nickname:"Lavi-san"

Definitely it was built with lavi tech , until the Tiananmen square massacre even the americans,british and french were helping the chinese modernize their military to fendoff the soviet union. When the protests and massacre happened the deals fell off due to western pressure but that didnt stop the Israelis from selling weapons and tech to the chinese in the 1990s and early 2000s with the abortive phalcon radar deal which was stopped with immense US pressure(its fruit is KJ-2000 awacs), they also were caught selling drones and loitering munitions technology recently. Chinese have the money and Israelis need money to maintain their heavily militarized state at constant readiness and with cutting edge technology

@@jzk3919 LMAO no. If you use 'san' as a suffix. It will be Japanese, you wrote is considered insulting to the CCP. They wouldn't mind if you said copied.

@@tachyonzero San is also used in mainland Asia. Just sayin'.........

@@patrickmichaelspencecooler4768 San means 3 in Chinese.

I've always been impressed with South African designs, ingenuity, and practicality. The Rooikat for example is neat o

The South African Cheetah was actually developed with some cooperation with Israel's IAI.

they were avia s-199 sakins. which were czech built me 109's with junkers bomber engines lol

Isn't this before the Gripen came?

Only Lavi was the source, IAI invented the idea of Steerable canards that later, Rafael, Gripen, and EuroFighters will copy

@@SUomiist I wonder if Israel was a larger nation with more people what more they could've done

You are right but it lacks the Jas 39 low drag.

@@mnd7381 Yes, but unfortunately one third of them had been murdered.

It is not the physical aspects of the jet that is derived from Lavi, but the tech involved in how to build it. That tech itself was ' borrowed ' from the US.

LoL Please UPDATE your information, Don't brag too much when you don't know the exact info! The J-10 was developed from the J-9 of the Chengdu Aircraft Design Institute. The J-9 was designed in the 1960s. The design goal was to intercept the Soviet Tu-22M and the US B-1B. However, due to insufficient engine performance, the flight performance of the J-9 could not meet the design targets, so it was planned to cancel in the late 1970s.In the 1960s design, the J-9 had adopted the long arm canard. IAI LAVI is close coupled canard, which is completely different. More similar to EF2000.

@@creativevines3535 you do not master the delta wing - canard configuration easily, hence why there are so few aircraft that has it as a wing layout. The J series had always been swept wing but the J-10 was a unique breed of its own. Hes not saying that the J-10 is a Chinese copy, the J-10 is simply the Lavi with Chinese characteristics and it works.

American pressure led to the liquidation of the Avro CF-105 Arrow fighter jet project .Even now, Israel manufactures Kfir fighter jets in Block 60 ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-kJnDrRjYUW4.html

Canada 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂 Canada is always aware a US invasion, this is not a joke!

Our (Canadian) aviation abilities in any shape or form are equal to or less than that of poorest third world countries. ........yea. 😑

@@gabrieljoseph6310 "Even now, Israel manufactures Kfir fighter jets".... Really? On which conspiracy website did you read this??

@@s.marcus3669 Today IAI produces Kfir Block 60 which is better than any F16's, but the Israeli Air Force fell in love with American aid so they closed the Lavi project.

With 'Merikan taxes... just saying

@@billhanna2148 Aircraft are expensive and Israel is a small country. I still think credit where it's due.

@@vaclav_fejt True enough He did say they built it mostly on credit.

Yes, Israel is very good at developing technology.

@@billhanna2148 So predictable.

There are. In fact, the only major difference is the russian, reverse engineered engine which is longer then the american pw1120. Hence, the enlargement in the overall length of the fuselage and also in some minor visual dissimilarities

J-20 looks similar to MIG 1.44 too... J-31 looks similar to F-35... JF-17 looks similar to Izdeliye 33... Checkmate looks similar to Northrop MRF-54E.

Lavi is a small fighter with a close-range canard wing, and its swept wing is not a complete delta wing, with the maximum engine thrust of 93kn. J-10 is a medium-sized fighter with a mid-range canard wing, one size larger than Lavi , and the maximum engine thrust of 130-144kn, which is a complete delta wing.

Mig 1. 44 has nothing to do with stealth fighters.Mig1.44 is just an enlarged rafale.

Russia and China have long history of copying and reverse engineering and saying" no I didn't, we did it first" Proven fact.

Yes, especially when they are gifted 200 billion dollars.

@@syedshah9836" he said 2 billion" never the less, the other way one can look at it; Money resources and knowledge is given and gifted all the time all around the world on a daily basis, (Africa, Middle East, Asia, South America and Europe) and yet very few actually managed to use it to better the situation. specialy when you think of the undergoing building of a nation in a desert land with water scarcity while fighting several wars with several countries and still able to establish a country at the top tier in 80 years or so... Respect.

@@aaaccc8707 Has any other country been given such largesse in the last 70 years, no thought not. So keep your nonsensical ramblings to yourself and answer the actual question...

@@syedshah9836 And saving the Americans as twice.

@@syedshah9836 Not one single Cent and not in 70 years.

Well technically kfir should be pronounced as kefir, but nobody pronounce it like that today.

'Da-sohw', surely?

kfir is ok

@@arielbemeliahu8619 close enough for government work.

Kfir - how does it pronounced?

but america eont let any nation have better stuff than it. they legit started a cold war with russia so they could show how big their "stick" is (and russia got carried away too)

@@BlackMasterRoshi i have no idea whats your news source but irl israel tries too much to look like the "good guys" it costs us our own solider's lives. a poor IDF solider was shot in thr head near a border because theres no restrictions for palestinians to amass near the border. the current goverment is way too soft with hamas, giving them anything they want and ignoring all their attacks. one day an extremist will rise and the hamas will regret it refusing the prace treaty offers...

@@ofekk213 Wrong buddy. You can not blame ONE country for the "cold war". That's just plain idiotic. BOTH countries tried to one up the other since day one after WW2 ended. The "cold war" was the culmination of years of back and forth on who had more of what in terms of arms, but it was RUSSIA that lied first with the TU95, they were proven liars with U2 over flights of Russian, and it went from there. Check your history facts and data.

what a shocker....

Perhaps Israel would be flying F-22's if the J-10 hadn't shown a need to keep US tech locked down tight.

Being chinese copies, they would be lucky to even last 5 minutes. None of china's copycat aircraft are very good at matching the aircraft they copy.

I understand the Chinese engines are no match.

@@BigBrainBrian Thats my understanding as well. Chinese aircraft copies are very capable aircraft but they have trouble creating engines as powerful as the original in the same size factor. Underpowered. Once they solve this issue they will be even more formidable. Even now though they are a serious adversary. Just as the Soviet Union was a dangerous adversary even if (if) aircraft may not have been a 1 for 1 match with western aircraft, they had a lot of positive advantages like sturdy reliable build, ease of maintenance, and large numbers. Imagine a china that now has those same qualities but a national economy that isn't going to go away and collapse anytime soon.

My first thoughts exactly!

I seen a photo somewhere speculating on a modern delta F-16 with stealthy design elements and F-35 avionics. Looked pretty sick. A single engine longer ranged super cruising weapons truckster.

@@gibu002 en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Dynamics_F-16XL

the "cranked arrow" on the XL is way cooler than a basic delta.

@@gibbsm Agreed... especially when it "accidentally" achieved super-cruse in testing. Mach 1.1 without the aid of re-heat.

It did not. The F-16 had better T/W even with AA weapon load out and 50% fuel weight... The engine of the F-16 was the PW F110-220 and it produced literally thousands of lbs of thrust more than the Lavi's did - Israel, going for an indigenous engine with the help of PW, gave up a lot in doing so. Propoulsion technology is something the Americans have excelled at for over 70 years and it's usually the breaking factor between aircraft. The F-16's higher thrust meant it would maintain a higher sustained turned rate than the Lavi. Much like other delta's however; where the Lavi would shine is having better low speed control than non-canard fighters AND the high instantaneous turn rate (snaps) that delta winged fighters are known for. However, this snap dumps all energy; making it viable in 1v1 dogfights but not in full on brawls where energy endurance matters NOR does it help in sustained SAM defense maneuvering. Where the Israeli's are very good is in electronics. One of the best in the world. By far. They and Japan are known for the component quality and in Israel's case, they're so damned good with their electronics that they often order US aircraft without certain avionics onboard as they're the only ones allowed to modify and make their own. They do this even with the brand new F-35 "Adir".

Nah. The US knew that the Lavi was intended for "non-aligned" countries, as an alternative to the F-16, and less politically constraining to buy. Buying US weapons has huge political implications, and the US are super protective about their tech. Israel doesn't care about patents and ownership.

La-vi (a Lion in Hebrew), not Navi.

It was less because he wanted to sell the F-16 but because Carters old policy was because he wanted to improve relations with the Soviets by restricting American arms trade, however by Reagans time relations had begun to sour so no need to keep the Soviets happy by restricting arms. Might as well arm your allies and keep your own defense industry happy

Nope, with Grunmman's extensive involvement the Lavi was as much an American program as it was Israeli

I’m glad they wiped the slate clean and started with a new design. I’m gonna assume they used flush riveting on the prototypes, both number one and number two.

Not just WWII fighters, but a variant of the Nazis' most-produced warplane. The irony is delicious...I'd love to see a video about the Israeli Avias.

When you wear blinders to avoid getting tied up in the politics, Israeli military gear really is fasinating. Scraps, leftovers, reverse-engineering, retrofitting, refurbishing, hoegrown genius, and half-finished plans, but so much trial by fire that only the best equipment lasts as a standard.

"With a little help" - understatement of the millenium. Most of the tech is hijacked if not outright stolen. No access to US Treasury funds since March 2020 is going change things up a bit for "Israel". I hope Putin wipes them like a dirty arse.

The F-16 came before Lavi, and Rafale and J-10 both came after. It looks very much like the F-16XL with the addition of canards but there were also a lot of internal differences between it and the F-16. Personally I think the Israelies made the wrong call. I believe if it had been fully developed that it would have given the F-16, the Rafale and the Gripen all runs for their money.

@@ImpendingJoker ~ Israelis have loved the F-16 since it first came out and would have had knowledge of the F-16XL. They probably had access to high level information from Dassault Aviation and the Saab, fighter programs, and probably decided it was easier to buy the best equipment rather than make it. So they stopped developing the Lavi and parlayed it's engineering assets into business assets.

Kfir Block 60 ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-_icXzMYdYHY.html

@@martentrudeau6948 The Israeli IAI and the Israeli government canceled Lavi because the Israeli Air Force wanted to buy 40 planes instead of 100. The pressure from an American to cancel the project at the time Lavi was more sophisticated and more advanced aerobics than F16.

@@gabrieljoseph6310 ~ The popularity of the F-16 was it's simplicity, ease of maintenance and low cost. The Lavi was meant to be an air superiority fighter.

Aren't most 'J' aircrafts the same?

The Chinese J-10 jet was built in the 80's with the Israeli plans of the Lavi, Right after cancelling the Lavi project. One can see how similar they look like.

@@simko8665 true .

Great video though, I enjoyed it.

Big fan of Israel but if they want to be able to do their own thing, they will need to kick their dependence of US dollars.

@@irondiver2034 what do you expect them to do, such a small country. The lavi was also made in a time where the israeli economy was realy bad

Um the 12th voter was blackmailed it was even common knowledge in israel the upper ups made sure it looked Fair

It would have had to be flown exclusively by guys names “John” and “Leu”

What is this reference? My mind only went to cousin Avi. :D "You know, London! Fish, chips, cup o' tea, bad food, worse weather, Mary fuckin' Poppins - London!"

@@vaclav_fejt The Lavi - the worlds original "single seater"

Figured that this comment existed. Came in search. Found it.

@@vaclav_fejt - It’s an anti aircraft gun Vincent!

The wings were carbon fiber. What they abandoned was the co-cured concept to form the spars and the skin in a single operation. Most composite wings and control surfaces are manufactured in this manner. Japan’s F-2 was the rare exception which proceeded down the co-cured route, leading to a steep learning curve and higher development cost. As for the point of the program, that has already been described elsewhere. Delivering a strike radius of a Block 52+ F-16C (with conformal fuel tanks) with an empty weight less than a Block 15 F-16A is quite the achievement.

@@JohnGolan Thank you for the correction, it would have been a US Taxpayers funded serious Israeli competitor to a US Taxpayers funded GDs F16 no doubt

Grumman signed-on as a partner in the program, with an agreement to built a separate US assembly line to cover export orders. The airplane was as much a US development program as it was Israeli. It was no accident that nearly half of the Lavi was to be developed and produced in the US. It meant that the US could be persuaded to continue funding both development and production of the aircraft. Producing the Lavi would translate directly into US jobs. It also made the Lavi a potential contender for sales to the US Air Force - something the Rafale or Typhoon could never have contemplated. Attempts to market the Lavi to the US Air Force came to a halt, of course, when the program was cancelled.

Grumman was unable to produce the co-cured carbon fibre wing as specified by IAI. The wing used metal fasteners to attach to a carbon skin to carbon spars. This failed in static testing and they reverted to a carbon skin over aluminium ribs. The wing that was eventually delivered was found to be too small and had to be redesigned again to meet performance goals. To credit of the IAI engineers it did, though it did disrupt the flight testing program.

The difference is time or when. Saab had the Viggens.

@@tomas7158 . I know . This DOES look more like the Current Grippen nonetheless .

Actually it means lioness

@@truemediaisrael8769 Lioness is Levia, pronounced le-vee-Ah

the majority of what the Israelis theoretically sold isnt the outside bits, ideas from the wing design and canards were supposedly implemented, but the avionics on the plane are world class even today compared to the Typhoon, Rafale, and SuperHornet; which is what was most likely copied over. i doubt the chinese would pay anything for a plane schematic to copy over what to not do....

@@adibar9066 Lavi’s avionics wasn’t working yet. The FBW system was done completely by American, and like I said, China couldn’t use it even if it was sold to them since canard position would mandate completely different fbw system designs. The engine difference means engine control system and fuel systems are different. The intake difference would mean completely different parameters, again for flight control. We know radar systems are different. After all that, what is left of Lavi to copy? The most I would say China got was probably Lavi test data, if anything was sold at all, that probably told Chinese not to design a closed coupled canard. However, even that is unlikely given Chinese canard design always favored mid position placement even before Lavi.

@@keith6371 It's like i brought a honda city from scrap changed all it's components with my own, and did some design adjustment where it required. Will you call it honda city or new car??

If there was money to be made Israel would sell the most advanced tech to the USA's deadliest enemy.

@@mausenpai215 more like you took a look at Honda city, decided it was a piece of junk. Designed a rear wheel drive car with a different engine and transmission, is it still a Honda city? Because the difference between a close coupled canard VS middle coupled canard is as big as the difference between a rear wheel drive and a front wheel drive. You really should educate yourself more, sounds like you have no idea about basic aerodynamics

You’re off by a couple of decades. The cancellation of the Lavi occurred during the latter 1980s, and led directly to the elimination of over 4,900 jobs in the Israeli aerospace industry within the span of a single year. Most of those engineers and technicians left the aerospace industry, never to return. Many left Israel to find jobs overseas. Israel Aerospace Industries fell from a work force of 22,000 in 1987 to 14,000 by 1994. By 2013 they employed some 16,000. To this day, Israel’s aerospace manufacturers have never fully recovered. They can develop missiles, but not warplanes. They have lost that expertise and infrastructure. Iron Dome didn’t emerge until decades later, entering development in 2005.

John Golan is indeed right that the direct connection to the Iron Dome project is.. very loose. Though, the gist of the reply was right, the Lavi project made around 5000 unemployed high tech experts which have led to the boost of The Silicon Wadi. Some left Israel, but most stayed and created “Start Up Nation” www.google.nl/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/startupnationcentral/2019/09/24/the-shared-tech-roots-of-silicon-valley-and-israels-startup-nation/amp/

UAI ,Israel is the first country to use UAVs

@@amitrabin1667 IAI Manufacturing produces the Kfir Block 60 fighter jet with technology developed for the F15, F16UF35 and the most sophisticated weapon system used by the Israeli Air Force ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-MqHW69Yhy8I.html

The iron dome project was decades later, there is no connection between the things you mentioned

Everything that Israel produces is amazing

The point was that the USA became an unreliable source for future resources so long term planning had to account for that

@@nerome619 if that was what they truly thought doesn't make much sense to base it on a US technology ( that they could plug the on!)- does it?!

I did look into it, but the information is very sparse.

Keep in mind that both Israel's defense minister and Chinese J10 designer Song Wencong denied such connection. Israelies denied the collaboration and Chinese claim the design of J10 is inherited fro J9 project which is way before Lavi. Don't know why this video deliberately ignore those claims

@@aidenchen1275 Cyclists that dope say they don't too . . . But you're probably right although since they share unusual features some influence is not out of the realm of possibility. Grumman F7F looks a lot like Kawasaki Ki 102s but you can't say anything more than influence. I only mention it because Japan was always mistakenly accused of copying western designs but the Ki 102 preceded the "Tigercat". Vertical stabilizer and rudder looks Grumman, the rest looks like a "Randycat ", lol

Thank you! I'm now trying to get my head around how to say Kfir as I'll have to do that plane one day 😁

Dude, maybe we can get you to convince Ian McCollum to pronounce "Galil" properly, Lord knows, I've tried!

Completely agree. I dont think the J-10 is a straight copy. But technical defence cooperation between Israel and China in the 80s is a documented fact (as it was with most western countries as well) and so I fully suspect technical data was supplied that assisted in J-10 program. It's a bit like the YAk-41. The F-35 isn't a copy, but technical info from the program helped with development.

in al ardak

The plane was proved as a fake, not a real plane

And increase the dimensions, replacing the engine with a Soviet design, and change the wing elevators from weeping in to sweeping out.

And it only took them US$2 billion of someone else's money to do it all! What a remarkable achievement!

The Kfir was a Nether with a J-79 and better avionics

@@ronmaximilian6953 I think that's the point I was trying to make.

bullshit

Subsequent government spending on the Bomarc and Starfighter programmes exceeded that of the Arrow.

It might have looked a lot like a Typhoon with Two Engines - mind you Dassault created a thing of Beauty in the Mirage 4000,maybe Canada should have bought that.

Heh. Canada calling. Neat idea. And a dark horse in the present season of our decades-long replace-the-Hornet saga is Sweden's Gripen E, a jet not wholly unlike the Lavi. But we have this history of getting all starry-eyed over the wrong type. Thus, the F-35 is still almost a sure thing for the RCAF of the future...

@@StudeSteve62 Lavi. Israels Arrow.

Thanks to the US for forcing Canada to stop

LAVI is missing F-16's blended wing body design for an extra body lift.