When Arnold Schwarzenegger wandered onto the set of The Dead Zone and Christopher Walken went Bane on his ass. This didn't happen but it did in my dreams.
boy if i had a nickel for every time DC did that with an ice character.. i'd have two nickels. which isn't a lot, but it's still weird it happened twice, right?
Personally I still remember the silly semi racist retcon they did for her backstory where they erased her whole tribe and history to say she was just... a romani thief who killed her family with her powers. When the fact we SAW her tribe and her brother was a villain was brought up... paid actors. One of whom went crazy. Yeah, sure jan.
So happy I have not seen/read that part - the multi-part story of Ice's realm in Norway is as memorable as it is defining as she was "killed" soon after...
Oh you're talking about Generation Lost? Yeah that seemed unnecessary, who knows if that was ever going to be explored more (not to mention trying to give a genuine reason for Maxwell Lord turning secretly evil being because of Coast City getting cratered and his mom lived there), but since that was Brightest Day none of it mattered since N52 wiped all that away with new stupid cannon and retcons.
Sigred replacing Ice feels like it would be a cool super-horror story where the replacement hero taking her dead predecessor's role to nightmare levels.
Worth noting is that Super Friends #25, which introduces Green Fury/Green Flame/Fire, also features a rare appearance of Nubia, Wonder Woman's "lost" twin sister. I had the entire run of the SF comics, and that issue was definitely my favorite because it had all these new characters!
Whilst aware there were/are two Ice's, I hadn't read their disambiguation storyline. I hadn't even realised that the original Ice Maiden wasn't a member of Tora's tribe! Thanks for the breakdown.
Thank you for making these comic deep dives. There's no way I'd be able to work through all those comics, so I'm grateful for you letting me dip my toes into comics where I wouldn't otherwise be able to. I find your perspective to be very balanced.
9:04 Even though this art of Ice is cute af, I bet the thoughts of the poor little seal here were: "Please, just turn me into grease jars and end with my suffering" 😢
I know this is probably an impossibility, but i would love to hear more about the team known as "The Global Guardians". They seem like a pre-Crisis proto JLI.
Their last appearance Post-Crisis was them being sent to a newly created Earth that had no be heroes to save the day. I would like to see this story. A "normal" world suddenly superheroes appear out of nowhere and there isn't a twist. They are as decent as they appear.
@@fad23 Maybe Christopher meant that it would be impossible (or just not worth it) for them to come back into present DC continuity. "Hearing more about them" meaning "Finding out what they've canonically been up to in 2023".
It's pretty curious that Ice felt in love with Guy Gardner because, when she met him by first time, the cocky green lantern was acting like a kind and innocent boy due to a brain damage he suffered shortly before. Those feelings didn't disappear at all once Guy recovered his famous personality, showing what a marvelous waifu she is
I think Guy and Ice are meant to be the epitome of the old "Opposites Attract" saying. It's a shame she was dead when Guy became Warrior and his powers healed his brain damage [thus making him more stable].
There is a special aspect about the premiere of Ice Maiden and Fire and the other characters that would go on to become the Global Guardians. And it really can only be appreciated by those of us who were alive back then and reading comics. This time period was in the aftermath of the DC Implosion. DC was only publishing a handful of comics featuring their most popular characters. And new superheroes from DC were almost unheard of during that time. While Super Friends was a kid's title, seeing new superheroes being featured was exciting and different for that era.
The "let me replace your romantic not spoken before love interest" Sigrid moment is... definitely something. 😅 I admit I just know the cliffsnotes about it, but is insane. Dressing up as a recently disease friend and trying to seduce a person, (side note, bringing ship that, far as I got, it never was really canonically explored) damn that's messed up 😂
Tora/Sigrid was excellent. I actually applaud that they made a concerted effort to "fix" the confusion by making Sigrid her own bonafide Icemaiden vs Tora's Ice. Aquaman/Thanatos soon please. It still confuses me!
I really liked this episode; I knew there was an "Icemaiden" but didn't know she was different from Tora/Ice. And that basically the duo were both created in the same line of ridiculous heroes that gave us Apache Chief, Samurai and El Dorado...but at least being in comic books they were able to get the pass to be popular and grow in noteriety.
Ya gotta love how cannon is something that is sometimes followed religiously and other times almost disregarded and everything in between. And our girl Sasha is here to get us straight when things go off the rails. Love your videos and hope everything is going good for you and your family.
We could make an entire superteam solely out of DC characters who came about because of mistakes or who had to have their backstories shuffled about because of mistakes... Donna Troy, Ice, Hawkman, the Earth 1 Wildcat, etc....
It's kind of a shame that E. Nelson Bridwell doesn't get much credit for trying so hard to make The Super Friends comic more than just a kid's book. He also did a wonderful run on Captain Marvel (before he became Shazam!) in World's Finest.
8:02 I appreciated that reference, they ever tie up that thread or is she still floating in a void with Power Girl who has now been pulled out of the void and has forgotten to mention there’s still a kid in limbo?
Can you do more videos about the justice league international? Specifically their villains, I wanna know who they fought and who were their "archenemies"
One thing about the JLI was a relative de-emphasis on villains. They had some (as Adam Coxworthy notes), but there was a lot more emphasis on conflicts within the team, shenanigans, and workplace situations.
The creators said in an interview that since Ice is an Ice Goddess they wanted to make her the DC's version of Thor, hence the name Tora Olafsdotter (Thor Odinson).
Id love to see a video on Infinity Inc. and/or All-Star Squadron, especially Atom Smasher in particular. Another great video, btw! Anything about obscure DC characters or JLI is up my alley, and Fire and Ice are really fun characters.
It's interesting how many of these stories I've read just incidentally. I read the Infinity Inc appearance when I was going through that series. I read the origin story when I was going through Guy Gardner: Warrior. I read the Glacier story because I like the seasonal anthologies. Every time I think "oh yeah, there was a blue Icemaiden at one point" and then I immediately forget.
I'm glad a generation loved these versions of the characters and all, since its always nice for people to find characters that they can invest in, but it was such disregard and even disreptect (no matter how unintended) for preCrisis versions, their creators and fans that added to my disconnect with most post-Crisis comics and why I got out of comics by the end of the 80s. I really liked Green Fury when she debuted and her other appearances. I was especially thrilled when they did finally show her and the GG in a proper Earth-One appearance ( and in a series that I collected). It was also a nice nod to see her in Crisis. But it was a disappointment she never took off; I really expected her to become more popular. She had a good look, intersting take on flame powers (which I hoped would be tied into an Earth-One version of the Earth-Two GL mystic green flames) and good backstory (Brazillian and connected to Wayne Enterprises if I recall). I even hoped she'd get her own backup series somewhere so we could expand the South American aspects of the DC universe, maybe using some Earth-Two and Earth-S SA inspired tales. Ice Maiden had an okay look, with her blue skin helping alot. And I even liked her Infinity Inc ( a post-Crisis tale?) look and hoped to get some at least one tale of her, Wildhuntsman and the Little Mermaid teaming up (maybe even against DC's Thor or Loki). But she wasn't some one I was too invested in. So her major reboot was more just annoying on principal. Had no idea though the two had held on for so long, longer than their Pre-Crisis selves, which is impressive.
Oooh yeah - do one of your oh-so-good readings about the Ice-Guy Gardner-Fire story. I’ve just reread the Guy Gardner (Warrior) series and was again surprised by how explicit the “morning after” was shown, when Guy and Beatrice “dated”…
Thanks for filling in the holes on the background of Ice for me. I liked them both during the J.L. International run. These were two C list characters that together became a great example of the whole becoming greater than the sum of its parts.
Could you do a video about the crime syndicate? I think they're a pretty interesting idea and are as enduring as their good counterparts, and the many reinventions and reintroduction of them are also fascinating. The many versions of ultraman specifically, from the downright silly initial evil superman who gained a new power every time he was exposed to kryptonite, the smart but short-tempered antimatter ultraman with a fittingly reversed origin and empowered by anti-kryptonite, the post-crisis earth-3 angry member of the crime society, and the new 52 one with his outward intimidating persona and addiction, and his inward hatred for his own weakness.
For those who say that Ice and Fire should have become lovers, it's pretty obvious that a romantic relationship between both girls would have ended up pretty...melted. 😉
@@freman007 No, it's usually people who literally weren't allowed to see their form of romantic love portrayed onscreen without it being labelled deviant or where they had to die for their transgression.
I only knew Ice first in the pages of 'Death of Superman', i was not much a fan back there although I have read a lot of older comics that my uncle left me , they were from the silver ager and much of them wee silly stories but then there was this big event with them killing SUperman and I was shocked to see so many superheroes that I have never seen and I began to collect all includin Invasion and Armageddon 2001, and I loved her character, it was a shame that they never give her the repect ishe deserved
Jesus Christ. Flayed alive? Why everytime some forgotten character is brought back or mentioned for a storyline, is always something horrific like that? It's never "yeah, the superhero business didn't worked, but they made a killing as a college professor, and now is married with 2 kids". It's always something like "they were kept on a basement being tortured and experimented on for years".
Thanks for this! Was introduced to F N' I via JLI, and never knew where they came from nor what their backstory was...loved how they were drawn by Maguire, Hughes, et al!
Actually my big frustration about this story (the actual story, not the video :) )is that even before they brought them in, Who’s Who featured a full spread on the Global Guardians with both Green Fury and Ice Maiden, along with their real names. This was even before the JLI comic debuted.
If the JLI team had simply checked the Global Guardians profile in the original Who's Who they would have found the name, but I don't mind there being two characters. I'd actually like to see the original incarnation of Green Fury brought back in some fashion because among other reasons, she was a lot smarter than Fire. The tricky thing there though is the real name is the same.
Yeah, the thing about them not even checking Who's Who is somewhat ironic since later issues would involve Giffen using characters (mainly villains) that were clearly picked simply because they were in the first few issues of Who's Who. Like, Blackrock who was a pre-Crisis Superman villain who had no business existing in the post-Crisis DC Universe. Oh, well, maybe he only read Who's Who for the pictures, not the articles.
You asked: Will always be a fan of Donna Troy... First Comic: new Titans 55, that cover just pulled me in (First Troia, I know it's an homage now...did not then)
As much as I love the bigger characters, these are the sorts I tend to recommend to new comic readers. Characters who are loved and have great stories behind them, but only have a few retcons in their past. I find their lack of wider popularity makes them less likely to get "brand synergied " with a crappy adaptation, and that makes them easier for new readers to get an idea of who they are. Fire and ice have that early Harley and Ivy feel with the maybe into each other, maybe just friends with opposing personalities and interests who get each other into messes, which can really get people invested.
They always hint at Fire and Ice being a thing, or like in JLU, joke about it, they make it clear, Fire likes her some dudes, and she's Brazilian (And sometimes they make Ice sound like Swedish Chef). Don't Worry Ice and... Now Glacier, there's like, 8 different Ice themed villains in DC, and one of you is actually in the fondly remembered section, the other one hangs out with Chillblaine.
Great info Sasha, Thanks, to make this fit, on Earth One (MY DC MULTIVERSE BTW)in the Mid Sixties, the Global Guardians we’re formed by Dr. Mist, Maxwell Lord and Captain Comet, as a United Nations strike force to combat world wide Super Villainy, ALL characters as originally introduced in the Super Friends comics would remain the temples. BTW could we have a background story on your super hero relative Godiva.?? aka Wig Woman.!! Yeaaa
I’m more curious about what they were thinking with Tora’s outfit. Like it’s a blue one piece with a half tank top over it. And big white fur-lined boots.
I'm going to be honest, I never knew they were two different characters. I only casually followed DC at the time, and I just assumed Ice's skin turned blue at some point, because 90's. Now I know better. Thanks!
Ok this was very interesting. Didnt know about that and its making me even more interested in checking out Fire and Ice (that latest comic was not great but it had somewhat given me an interest to look on their previous works).
Other mistakes that come to mind, but which didn't lead to anything: Hal Jordan's niece. When first appeared, she was called Helen. Then in the Hal Spectre series, her name was Jennifer. I think they acknowledged that on the letter page and left it as it was. In a 1978 2000ad future sport story called 'Inferno,' the first part saw team manager Don Wepener. In the next part he was suddenly called Charlie Vance. Even though he was clearly the same character. He didn't last much longer before being killed off though, so it didn't really matter.
So the justice league International was a mistake for the introduction of ice the tora version as they forgotten the sigred version then both are back in the universe nowadays
I was around when the first Icemaiden was introduced in the Super Friends comics. It was part of a three issue arc that introduced the Wonder Twins and featured the entire JLA roster at the time (plus Robin), teamed up with a "local" hero from around the globe (who would many years later become the Global Guardians). Some were given civilian names in this appearance (such as Icemaiden, Little Mermaid and Tasmanian Devil. Others, such as Tuatara, Jack O'Lantern (the original) and Owlwoman were not given identities until later appearances, if ever.
It is hard for us to remember, but back in the 1980s there wasn't this whole Interweb thing yet that you could just go to the DC wiki and look up every appearance of some character or other. There weren't (at that point) massive scholastic coffee table book encyclopedias of every DC character cross indexed with their first appearances that you can go pick up at Costco (there weren't even Costcos until the end of the 80s). So I can understand why it wouldn't be uncommon for people digging through the giant filing system they had in the DC office basement to miss an occasional detail. I recall seeing an interview or something with one of the people actually trying to put all of DC's cast into one of those new-fangled data-base things back around 1990. I wonder if that's where they spotted Ice's original name.
One thing that fed these inconsistencies was that Ice was developed straddling COIE. Crisis let "anything goes" be the rule of thumb, as long as they could recon it.
I was only ever familiar with Tora from the animated stuff. Neat video. I think calling Sigrid Glacier is a good way to differentiate the two even further [as if that's really needed at this point], but so far DC's just trotted out Sigrid for Pride Month. Once. That was mentioned in the video, but still.
🎶Shared Her Name🎶Shared Her Name🎶 🎶Non Researching Writers Gave Me Her Name🎶 Shared Her Name 🎶 Shared Her Name 🎶 They Made Fans Think Sigrid & I Are One & The Same 🎶 I Don’t Care What They Say 🎶Let Them Try To Correct, Or Retcon It Someway 🎶 Take The Maiden Away, ICE Fits Me Better Anyway 🎶 Lol …Please let us know about Fire’s relationship with Guy Gardner…Because I want to know who should be more pissed at Fire for not trying to prevent the Ice & Guy hookup…Ice because Guy is a toxic BF, or Guy after Ice & the Human Target flashed froze & shattered his body , before going to bang in the other room as his parts melted !!! Thank You Tom King …Keep Up The Outstanding Work Sasha 🖖🏾
I just had this conversation with my wife yesterday at a comic shop! She asked me if I knew Fire and Ice. I said kind of, and gave the weird Canon not Canon thing with a shrug. She replied "OK then." 😆
❤ I really like ice, she's really great. I love her costume and I love that she's wearing the full gloves now and not feels like half gloves I like it better the way she is drawn now I haven't read the new issue I'm going I plan on doing it yes and I remember it was a bit confusing on who she was, and the funny JOL. The series that concentrate a little bit too much on humor and then eventually became more of a full-blown action series. And I think they killed the rough
I have some of those issues mentioned but I never knew or noticed any errors. Granted I was never the biggest JLI or bwahaha error fan. I am open to more ice powered people in the DC universe. But my favorite is the original Killer Frost.
I remember all these stories as a Justice League fan who read the JLI series (in all it's many title name changea and spin-off). I can't argue as retcons to correct continuity errors go that was definitely one of the better done in terms of exlpaining away the continuity error without creating a bunch of new ones. That being said, the stories were SO BAD. JLI was such a great book but it's later run was a low point for the Justice League in general and I still wish I could surpress it.
I don't know why, but I was certain this was going to have something to do with Killer Frost. Doesn't help that DC has enough ice themed characters to populate a mid sized city.
