Impossible Setup on Epiphone ES-335 Guitar 

Thanks you for this useful piece of information. Is that and old Chinese proverb? It's amazing how much useful information can fit in a short sentence. I'll definitely write this down somewhere. I'd love to go on guitar forums and share this, but I think people might be skeptical if this comment comes directly from me. Perhaps you could go on guitar forums and warn the community about the all the BS on this channel - and make sure to post links to the videos, so people know exactly what you are referring to. The community will thank you. Thanks for dropping by and for taking the time to post your comment. I've learned a lot from it.

@@GuitarQuackery Don't call us, we'll call you.

What do you mean? Seriously, I'm curious, Are you talking about his analysis of the guitar or are you saying that it's b.s. when you buy a new guitar and it has problems like this from the factory?

@@carlcarl6032 To be honest, I was also having trouble understanding which one of these two he meant to say. And it's till not clear to me... but I've moved on to editing another video.

@@carlcarl6032 No I'm not talking about the analysis or condition of the guitar from factory. I'm referring to the 'quackery' about needing super specialist tools and equipment and ending with a multiple fret polishing procedure (I think it was 9 stage). People have been repairing and setting up stringed instruments for centuries using their eyes and basic tools. Yes you can build a nuclear power station to boil water but a kettle on a wood fire gets the job done too. No reflection on the competance or quality of the work just the BS surrounding it.

That is actually one of the most common mistakes that I've seen techs make, i.e. using the notched straight edge to measure neck relief. When we measure neck relief we are only interested in the relief of the playing surface, not the surface of the board. So, if you scallop the fretboard around the 8th fret, you will measure a humongous relief, if you use a notched straight edge to measure the relief, but the scalloping will not affect the playing surface, which should be measured with a straight edge over the frets. We use a notched straight edge for other purposes. For example, we use it to straighten the actual neck before leveling the fret tops, so that the fret heights will become uniformed across the entire board, after leveling. There are other examples. Perhaps this would be a good topic for a future video. Thanks for pitching in.

@@GuitarQuackery You are welcome. Thanks for your reply. I have seen the notched straight edge used to straighten the wood part of the neck before leveling the frets (on unscalloped necks).

@@Mikex0123 Precisely, The notched straight edge is used to measure the board, so that you can work on the frets, over a straight board.

Think of a guitar setup as a wheel alignment on a car. A wheel alignment is not really possible if the steering column is bent. So, on this guitar the fretboard topography was lopsided. Hope this makes sense.

@@GuitarQuackery I watched the video to near the end, I noticed you found a 'workaround' solution by taking some of the raised material off the proud frets, with the fretboard retaining it's hi and low spots. So, the frets are now level but the board is the same as it was. I'm not critisising, I think you did a great job. I have come across one or two guitars which left me puzzled as to why they couldn't be intonated. So this kind of thing interests me.

@@zibbezabba2491 Correct. This fixed the fret tops, but did not affect the board. That's a generally acceptable budget-minded alternative to doing a full refret, which would also require planing of the fretboard, to make is true. Doing a full repair that involves a refret would cost more than buying a new Epiphone, so this is just a good alternative. Hope this makes sense.

@@GuitarQuackery Of course mate, as you said in the beginning..."how much for a setup...Well, that depends" 🤔

@@zibbezabba2491 I'm currently editing a few videos that show how and why some guitar "setups" turned into more than "just a basic setup." Doing a setup on ay guitar that has other issues is like painting a rusty car, without doing body repair work, first. Stay tuned for the Mustang Bass video, coming up.

Very good point. Coincidentally, Dylan, from the Dylan Talks Tone channel, recently published a video about pole piece adjustment. He later also said there would be a follow up video because he discovered something new after he had already published the pole piece video. Have you seen it?

Thank you kindly.

Glad to have you on board. Please feel free to tell your friends about the channel. Thanks.

Since you are the second person that made this comment, I'll just have to do a separate video on fret reseating and glue-up. I actually have the guitar just for that. Not sure when the vide will come out, but make sure you subscribe, so you don't miss it. You see, how I strategically got you to subscribe, LOL. Sneaky, sneaky... But I know you've already subscribed, anyway. The guitar I have in mind is a Squier Strat. But I can't promise that will be the one I'll use. There's also a vacation coming up and I have to finish a bunch of work before the summer break. So, I'm thinking I might be able to put it together in the fall. I didn't show it in this video because I wanted to maintain the focus of the video on topic, which was to show why a setup is not always an option. I did show some of the LCP work, simply to prove that I actually did do the work I said had to be done. Otherwise people might think I'm just a fake. Thanks for dropping by and thanks for taking the time to comment.

Thanks.

Thank you for the nice words. I do not consider myself to be the best, but I do consider myself to be in the group of the above average techs/luthiers. In fact, many of them are my friends and we talk all the time over Zoom. Some of them have RU-vid channels (Beau Hannam, David Collins... etc) and some don't. Some are better at some particular specialties and others are better at other things. I personally decided to specialize in guitar nuts and frets. Guitar Quackery is a very small repair shop inside of a big rehearsal studio called Music Makers NY. The guitars on the wall are rental guitars, owned by the studio. I just rent my work space here, but those guitars have nothing to do with Guitar Quackery. I do occasionally fix issues on them, to help the studio, though. Thanks for dropping by.

I don’t think it was John Lennon. I think you’re thinking of an old Chinese proverb.

Welcome aboard. And I'm glad to hear you like my forum posts. Now let me answer your questions. I am so super busy as it is that I can't even consider taking in work from out of NYC. As it is I actually turn down over 50% of work, as it is not humanly possible to keep up with the demand of a big city. As far as tutorials, yes, technically there is a tier on Patren that offers just that. It is the Partner tier (or above). However, my Patreon community is minuscule at the moment and I actually don't even have any Patreon supporters beyond the Contributor tier, at the moment. But, if I were to give Zoom lessons and tutorials I would be doing it from the shop, using the same cameras that you see me use when recording the RU-vid videos. Except it would be a Zoom call. Thank for dropping by and glad to have you on the channel.

I would say, always make sure you go back to the same luhier (or tech) if you are happy with the work. Not every guitar will need an LCP job and some will have a more noticeable benefit than other guitars might. In this case, there was a differential relief on the fretboard with a backbow on the treble side, so clearly, on this guitar the LCP would have more impact than it might have on a guitar with a few slightly uneven frets. Many boutique built guitars get an LCP job done right after the frets are installed and some factory guitars now get a PLEK job, such as Gibson, Martin, Taylor... I am not sure about Fender, but I can find out - probably just Custom Shop (just speculating). I literally do this and cutting nut slots every day. Thanks for dropping by,

The Looth Group is definitely the best thing on the planet for people in our line of work. Cheers.

The problem was definitely the fret board. I did briefly show this around 9:45 using a notched straight edge. The proper repair, technically speaking, would have been a full refret (as you said) which would require planing the fretboard true, before installing new frets. In my shop, that repair option would end up costing more than buying a new Epiphone. So, the LCP, in this case, was the only budget-friendly option that I could offer, short of doing a full refret, so that we can save the guitar. I know that many techs would simply do a setup, but I no longer put myself in a position to go down that rabbit hole with a guitar that I already know has some kind of issue. You are now the third viewer that asks about reseating the frets (which is actually a misnomer, since they were never seated to begin with). I did do that off camera but did not show it here because this video is about explaining why a setup is not always an option. Since there seems to be interest in reseating frets, I am happy to do a comprehensive video just about that, in the future. But in closing I have to mention that there are two closely-related old Chinese proverbs. The first one pertains to this video: "A setup is not always an option." And the second one pertains to the now requested upcoming video: "Reseating frets is not always an option." In other words, there's usually more to the story. Thanks for dropping by and thanks for taking the time to post a comment.

Thanks for dropping by. Yes, I did re-seat them and glued them with CA glue (off camera). As a finer point, I just want to mention that sometimes they pop back up and it's actually better to just do a full re-fret, but of course the cost is higher.

@@GuitarQuackery Several years back, there were a bunch of Epiphones that had frets that were too loose to glue. They seem to have straightened out that problem. I recently did a fret level and setup one of those new $550 Epiphone ES339’s. I was shocked at how well it was built. There were only a few spots where the frets were slightly high and seated back real nice. A couple passes with the beam was all it took. In contrast, I worked on a couple $3000 PRS’s that needed more fretwork done than the Epiphone. For that kind of money, a custom setup is expected from the manufacturer.

Thank you for sharing your experience. Sheratons are quite classy. I like the pick guard on the Sheraton. And, I believe, John Lee Hooker only played Sheratons.

@@GuitarQuackery You are right

I've always been a big Gibson fan, myself. Regarding the fret ends, this video was just focused on the fact that this guitar was not a good candidate for a standard setup, as one of the most frequently requested services, as it clearly had a fretboard topography issue. Since it had to go through a Level Crown & Polish job, it automatically also had fret end dressing done, at the later stages of the LCP. But, yes, good point. Thanks for dropping by.

Yes, you are absolutely right. My audio recording sucks. I am actually working on this issue, trying to improve it. I’m doing everything on my own, and the RU-vid efforts are already making a big negative impact on my bottom line at the shop. So I can only do so much, without putting my day-to-day business further on the line. There are definitely imperfections, but I just need to put out the RU-vid videos without trying to perfect every little detail. I play guitars aggressively, and I typically produce a lot of fret buzz, kind of like flamenco players also do. But, just like you said, my recording levels are off, and the attacks are actually distorted in this recording. Thanks for dropping by.

I didn't show all the fret work, as this video is actually about showing one example why a setup is not an option (if you really want to get the best possible performance out of the guitar). This is just one of many possibilities. I still wanted to show that I actually did do the fretwork, but I didn't want to turn this video into a repair video tutorial. I am actually building a playlist that will show different examples why a setup might not be an option. So, more coming up. In fact, I currently am working on two guitars that came in for setups and ended up being refrets.

@@GuitarQuackery Thank you. It would have been interesting to see how much difference the straight edge showed, after re-seating the frets, and before levelling them.

@@1man1guitarletsgo I did show that... on the neck jig. I reseated the frets before I put the guitar on the neck jig, when I showed the uneven board using the notched straight edge. That would always be the procedure, in fact. We always have to make sure the frets are seated before leveling. Hope this makes sense.

@@GuitarQuackery Yes, I see. It's a shame that guitar left the factory with such a poor build.

@@1man1guitarletsgo It's actually inevitable. Any mass production will result in rejects. Some will be caught but most will slip by. From a production POV it doesn't make sense to inspect the products. It's all about cost analysis. It costs more to pay skilled people to catch imperfections than to deal with returns and complaints. If Epiphone has real inspectors at the end of each production line, those guitars would have to cost significantly more. And of course, the 80% of people that never realize that they have a bad guitar will never cost the factory a penny.

LOL.

They just keep on coming.

True. But the one you'd buy off the shelf would not be nearly as good as the one that came out of the shop.

I like that last phrase. It sounds like an old Chinese proverb.

$75 to $100 is definitely lower than average. Although, I do not know where you are located and what kind of costs you have to keep up with, to run your shop. I don't really have set fees, because I never know what kind of fret job it will be. When people call me on the phone and ask, "How much for a setup?" or "How much for a refret?" I never answer any of those questions. Every job is different. In fact, that is one of the reasons why I am currently making a series of "impossible setup" videos. Because a lot of people call for setups, not knowing what their guitars actually need. I live and work in NYC and a setup fee in town is definitely more than $100 - in fact $110 for a platinum setup at Guitar Center, which I believe is the best price in town because as a big company they can offer lower prices than small shops.

@@GuitarQuackery I work from home or from my place of primary employment. It's rural eastern KY, and there simply isn't much money around. I keep my prices very low because I've found that charging normal prices leaves me with zero customers. If I was doing it as my primary income I would have to move someplace else.

The neck was not twisted. I checked. It had an asymmetrical fretboard.

I think there's a typo in "forgixing" - I'm sure you meant "forgiving", right? I'm not sure how that would be correct, as larger strings require more compensation than smaller strings. How did you come to that conclusion? I'm really interested to know.

While I do love Gibson, and own quite a few of them, they have plenty of manufacturing issues. As far as Martin guitars, they are falling apart at an alarming rate. I have done more structural repairs on Martin guitars, then on any other brands. The typical Martin issues are, soundboard cracks (due to the fact that they have no control at the factory when they glue together the bodies), bridge lifts, binding repairs (due to the fact that their “proprietary” glue seem to hold and also the plastic shrinks over time), pickguard repairs (due to shrinking plastic), neck resets (some Martin guitars come with overset or underset necks straight from the factory), compression refrets (due to the fact that Martin guitars introduce a truss rod only as late as in the late 1980s), unglued, braces, and the list goes on… I recommend to all of my clients, if they are going to buy Martin, to bring it to me for a full exam, during the return. You’d be amazed what we find.

If an "increase in value" is what you're looking for in a guitar, please don't buy guitars. I'd rather buy a cheaper guitar, spend the money I saved making it play perfectly, and sell it at a loss than buy an expensive guitar that still needs work, but I'm too afraid to replace parts on because it's "all original" so I end up hating the thing.

@@betterl8thannvr Hence the old Chinese proverb, "A guitar is not an investment." And investment is something that we spend money on, with the intention to make a profit. Most people don't buy guitars with that in mind.

This is just a guess, but possibly for road work. Why risk your high value or prime instruments out there? Save them for the studio gigs. Take the Epis and if one is broken or stolen, it is easily replaced.

​@@GuitarQuackeryYes on the quality issues. Used to be better than today but keep in mind they want to sell you their plecking service. It's a shame that isn't a standard considering the prices.

I've done the same exact fork, for the same exact reasons on quite a few Gibson guitars. In some cases I even had to do a full refret, to first level the board true. Both brands, Gibson or Epiphone are subject to the same unpredictable nature of the aging of the wood. So, wood can twist and tun as it ages. I am currently making a video of a blue Gibson Les Paul that had a similar situation. Although, to be fair, the blue Gibson Les Paul in this particular case also had significant fret wear. But there are similarities. You should also check out my recent video The Acoustic Guitar Setup that Can't be Done ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-SX4rTN8-77o.html which features a Gibson J-160E acoustic guitar. I'm still waiting for the customer to get back to me about that one and in fact I am about to start charging them a storage fee. But that's a separate story. Thanks for dropping by.