In Defence of Joseph Sugarman | BoJack Horseman | Video Essay 

If you like this video, you might also like this one I made exploring when exploitation is ok in film and television told through the lens of true crime and the Netflix Jeffery Dahmer show: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-RmiEtfeGc9o.html Or this one looking at how Spirit Halloween takes advantage of the dying suburbs: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-0K9bmtSlx3U.html ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-RKOhw8NZpXg.html Or here is the In Defence of playlist if that's what you're into: ru-vid.com/group/PLqStSJhv1GeS_4n1Fw7I-mbgo1s_QDtFF

He unknowingly ruined 3 lives when he denied his wife the ability to grieve.

I just realized that Sugerman / Creamerman merger would likely result in some kind of ice-cream production, and Beatrice loved ice-cream D: I'm crying now

Joseph Sugarman was a character that haunted me because he embodies the evils of that past that hide in our nostalgic imaginations.

I think the nail in the coffin for the way that Beatrice turned out was Honey telling her not to love anyone as much as she loved Crackerjack

He’s a product of his time, doesn’t excuse the bad he did but it explains it.

I think Joseph is a good example of how sometimes, our parents aren’t bad people. They’re just living by how they were raised and it’s difficult for them to understand the radical changes of the modern era. It’s not an excuse, of course. But Joseph was working with what he had, and still did his best given the circumstances.

It’s worth to point out that although Joeseph hated butterscotch, he gave him a job and aided both of them financially for years, till the end of his life

Joseph was actually a good father, considering the bare minimun that was expected from men on his time. He stepped up to take care of Beatrice, sent her to college (for the wrong reasons though), and supported her daughter's useless husband giving him a good job he didn't deserved. But the thing that sticks with me the most is that, from his era, it was expected that he remarried and started over after his son's death, tossing Beatrice aside for a new family. But we don't see any sings that he remarried or even dated. He could've put Honey on a psyche ward, but he kept her around the house despite not being able to do anything, and was somewhat close with Beatrice until she became an adult. I don't hate him for being sexist, because it was common on his era, we can't judge old time characters with current criteria.

I love that you brought up the fact that he was trying to help her by getting her lobotomized. He truly loves her, and it’s not secretly implied that he regrets the actions

He was just a dad, sorta just acted like a dad did back then. Not many dad's where great back then 😭

I've never clicked on a video thinking so confidently "yea, no way they pull this off" and been so wrong

Honestly I bet her dad woulda let the girl have a freezie pop. I feel like Joseph Sugarman tried to fight discomfort with humour. He had a saucy back and forth with his wife that was pretty cute. He talked about flirting with his receptionist but I don’t think he was serious because who openly talks about infidelity in front of their children? I think when he said “I was never taught, and I will not learn.” He was trying to make the situation lighter. He was trying to joke and raise his wife’s mood like she could go “haha my stupid husband”

I'd like to add that when Beatrice gave Bojack that portrait she told him it belonged to his granpa "a man who understood what marriage meant" or something along those lines. We also see her tell Butterscotch in the middle of an argument "i should have married Corbin Creamerman" Which goes to show that she does believe her father wanted the best for her too.

Yeah, I took into account the fact that he offered his son-in-law a job as well. Especially because some people would simply disown their daughters for getting pregnant without marriage.

Another aspect people forget is that Joseph and Honey would have grown up in the height of the Great Depression/Post WWI and being predisposed to aversion to financial risk

Is nobody else gonna mention the scene when Beatrice gives Bojack an old painting and speaks of her father as “a man who knew what marriage meant”? She didn’t have dementia at that point and showcases that Beatrice saw her father as a supporting figure in her life even though he did traumatize her in her childhood. She respects that part of her father but doesn’t always admit it

Consider how Beatrice's choice to ditch her party and hook up with a random party crasher, all because she knows better, impacted her life. She would have been far happier and more fulfilled if she listened to dad's advice.

The fact that Joseph was told “boys don’t cry” as a child makes sense why he said “womanly emotion” Can’t wait for the Honey Sugarman video

Honey's manic episode also put her sole surviving child, Beatrice at risk.

I honestly never hated Joseph. Was he problematic? Yes. But his actions weren't fueled by hate or spite or anything like that. He just didn't know better. Plus, I'll be honest, if my spouse got shit-faced in a manic episode and nearly killed our youngest child, I would have flipped out too. I work in a school, and one of my coworkers just stood by, watching two kids fight (I'm talking hair-pulling and slapping and grabbing each other at the neck), then threw up her hands saying: "I'm not dealing with this," and walked away. I wanted to give her a piece of my mind over that level of negligence.

I wouldn't call him a "good guy," but now I can see how he isn't a "villain."

As a therapist, particularly one who works daily with victims of trauma, couples, etc, I was genuinely curious to see how you could humanize one of the most hated characters in fiction, while also not excusing his actions and the far reaching generational impact they had. And you did an excellent job. I genuinely say here like, “Huh. Yeah. Okay.” No notes, and I love seeing you update! 🖤 Ps: I learned from watching your videos the “Defense” vs “Defence” cultural difference, and I love that you continue to stand on it. 🖤

As this series goes on, there will no bad person in Bojack Horseman eventually.

As someone who's watched the old sugarman place more than any other episode in bh, i really like that analysis. Even though i felt really bad for Honey, she nearly killed their only child, who was around 6 at the time. You can understand his anger in that scene, because if your only child was nearly killed quickly after your first died, I don't think he'd be able to suppress his emotions, especially with how young she was. And the lobotomy thing is so real; it was normalised to do that to people struggling with mental issues, like nowadays how we just put them on drugs which really dulls people down. yeah sorry for the huge rant like comment but NO ONE i know irl has even heard of bh and won't watch it 😭😭

Joeseph does remind me of my grandfather. When my father was young, one of his brothers died. My grandmother got in this really deep depressive state (she didn’t leave her room for years) and my grandfather spent all day on work. He did, practically, support her. He was there and did all she needed, but only physically

You did the damn thing, Ariana. Extremely well done.

Next up: In defense of Butterscotch Horseman.

ngl This helped me recontextualize some shit from my childhood, and I think I understand my dad a little better now. I needed to hear this. Thank you!

I know this might be a nitpick considering the show treats it as a throwaway joke in the episode about the setting, but Joseph makes remarks about complimenting his secretary's tight sweaters and keeping her self-esteem afloat in the final argument, which upon first watch gave me the impression of him having an affair or at the very least that he was actively flirtatious with other women back at work. I might be looking at him in bad faith, but I still am a bit under the impression that even if he was a man who ultimately wanted to good by his family, he was also a selfish prick at times, prioritizing himself

"i know it sounds horrible. DON'T YELL AT ME" got me 🤣

This is what I love about shows like Bojack - they give every character motivation and context. Yes, in Beatrise’s memories, he appeared as a villain and he did traumatize her. But he was just a man doing what he thought made sense at the time. He made many mistakes but he never wanted to hurt his own family.

you did a good job here, touching on some good points. its always irritated me how, when viewing morality throughout history, modern people sit on a high horse and neglect the context and norms of the time. 100% there will be common beliefs and/or actions we maintain today that will be considered horrifying in 50 years.

Another thing to mention is that he never abandoned Honey. Often, patients like Rosemary Kennedy would be hidden away to spend the rest of their lives in nursing homes or asylums. But Joseph kept Honey home. He had the wealth to put her up somewhere, but he didn’t. This shows that he does care about Honey, he just can’t express himself well.

HONEST TO GOD THIS WAS SUCH A GOOD DEFENSE. i think this is an interesting perspective to view the character of joseph through and much MUCH better reflects the nuanced nature of most of this show rather than simply saying "joseph was a villain who ruined his family." this gave me a lot to think about and was really well presented.

This really clears up his character, also it leads me to think that he was just doing his best, in this context of defence. The lobotomy was one of the only “cures” known and he did it because honey asked, he tried to help and regretted it because he didn’t know what would happen when honey got one.

Bro I never got angrier in a second than here and now. You're pure chaos

I kinda love how he says "yes especially your baby"

Waiting for: In defence (sic) of Greg, the guy Mr Peanutbutter met at a gas station that one time.

They weren't exactly wrong about the scarlet fever thing either. I'm no medical expert, but if somebody with the disease came into contact with, well, damn near ANYTHING, it could put others at risk of catching the illness and dying because of the contagions left behind by the infected person. Which is why they burned things. Smart move on Joseph's part, actually.

NO. FUCKING. WAY!! What's next? In defence of Thanos?

Thats the problem with looking into the past things were different. Hindsight is always 20/20 and people often refuse to acknowledge that

Waiting for that "in defence of Clay Puppington episode"

I am so happy for this video - because I never thought he was "the devil" of the show. He messed up but he was unprepared to deal with his own, his wive's and his daughter's emotions...but considering these times he did pretty ok-ish

I think his biggest crime is not questioning the morality around him, but most people don't do that before, and after, their time frame. Most people are NOT these amazing free thinkers they think they are. Like all these pop punks that think they're unique, but how many others like that?

Yeah, no. I agree that while Bojack's grandpa was somewhat better than his dad, that doesn't excuse Joseph's actions either. While "a product of his time" explains why he thought what he did was best it doesn't excuse the generational trauma that he passed on to Beatrice, and into Bojack as well. Yes, the show does establish that that trauma burden must be addressed by the latest recipient of it, however, Joseph also had a choice to reexamine his trauma when he was living his present life with his family, he just never cared to. Framing Joseph as just "emotionally stunned but did the best he could" takes away his responsibility AND accountability, not to mention that you skipped the whole cheating repeatedly on his wife's part because it was "part of social norms, it's fine". He is a powerful and privileged man who played into the role he knew how to play and never cared to reexamine his actions until it was too late and already bared a consequence on him. The exploration of his family's trauma serves the purpose of understanding the many factors that made Bojack the way he is, his flaws, and his LACK of accountability as well. By this logic, Bojack is just "a product of his time" just like his grandpapi, and if we are "forgiving" Joseph for his shortcomings we should "forgive" Bojack for his as well. Now, you can see how this is problematic because it defeats the ENTIRE PREMISE of the show. We are not supposed to like Bojack, we are to see him and his actions through a critical separate lens because we get to see his side and the side of the people he hurts, the same goes for Joseph. There is no defending the indefensible.

He wasn't a great dad or person but he certanly wasn't as horrible and abusive as people think. There are no villians in Bojack Horseman, that's kinda one of the main points of the show that many people forget.

At this rate you’ll somehow find a way to defend Walter White

Awesome take. I think about this a lot. I think WAY too much about this horse-cartoon, but I digress. They were able to take a character like Beatrice, set her up as absolutely vile (and she was), then make the audience sympathize with her deeply. I've often wondered if the same would have been done for Butterscotch or Joseph had the show gone on a few more seasons. Joseph is terrifying, but generational trauma was masterfully written into his character. You just never get to see it justified as explicitly as you do in Beatrice and Bojack's flashbacks.

love this video, sometimes i have hard time in fandom spaces when a character appears that clearly has to be seen according to very specific circumstances, time eras, and even more if the media has sometimes some level of meta/surreal aspects, like how joseph says "i was never told to manage my emotions and i will never learn" we probably have to see that as more of a personal though being said out loud for the gag to work, but it also is meant to explain the current circumstance by saying he is a MODERN man, is kind of in the same line of honey telling baby beatrice that ice scream is a boy's snack and she should suck on a lemon with sugar

The whole Bojack family is the picture of ' Being a Product of time and surroundings ' they lived in, as was Sarah Lynn. Then we get the opposite with PC, Diane, Todd maybe even Mr. Peanutbutter ( when he's talking with Diane and has a realisation - I was always US in the relationship, now I'm learning how to be ME) And that's one of the reasons the show is 👌

I’m absolutely here for this video. I find Joseph a really fascinating character to analyze, because you’re right: the different social conventions of his time vs ours make a massive impact on what’s considered moral to each of us. And you can’t quite judge the people of the past based on the morals of the present.

I think that this sort of analysis will always be constrained by the fact that we *only* see Joseph through Beatrice' perspective. There's a whole person in there, and we can see glimmers of who that person might be, but largely we see only the effects, not the causes, which limits our perception. There's something to be said for the fact that the only two emotions we ever see Joseph display are his usual benign geniality, and, occasionally, anger. We don't see his grief over losing Crackerjack, and we don't see his fear over almost losing his wife and daughter except through the lens of anger, and we don't see his grief over losing the woman his wife had been pre-lobotomy. Those aren't emotions that he displays to his daughter. He will have been taught from a young age: no one gives a shit how you are feeling. Your job is to man up and do what needs doing for your family. He will have been punished in a thousand little ways for displaying any real emotion other than anger, and rewarded for displaying his mask of calm, stoic geniality. You can't undo that kind of social programming overnight, or just by wanting to. Still, that only goes so far. Yes, he does display in many ways that he does care about his daughter and want what's best for her, and he does attempt, as far as he's capable, to step into the maternal role that Honey can no longer fulfill. But if he makes any real attempt to understand where Beatrice' seeming "ingratitude" surrounding the debutante ball is coming from, we don't see it. The video makes a lot of good points, but the essayist goes a little far in describing him as a "good guy." He has good intentions and an inadequate set of tools with which to express them, but he doesn't seemingly go out of his way to expand that toolset. End of the day, when he says "I was not taught, and I will not learn," we can recognize the tragedy of the former without letting him off the hook for the latter. The lobotomy wasn't his fault. He did nothing more than what we're all exhorted to do when it comes to climate change denial or COVID spread mitigation: listened to the experts. But when it came to handling his adult daughter, he did precious little as far as recognizing her as a subject matter expert in her own life and listening to her. He's callous, defensive, and dismissive, and no amount of "he's a product of his time!" can change that.

@1:36 In the UK: we also spell defence with a ‘c’ not an ‘s’.

Gotta be honest 7 times is almost enough times I’m doing lap 8 now

Can we also take a moment to acknowledge this is probably Matthew brodrick’s best voice acting since the lion king?

for me it's gotta be joseph's unapologetic and proud embracement of everything wrong with the culture of the time. he explains his actions in ways that make him look completely psychotic for not wanting to change. "I was never taught, and I will not learn" says everything about him. because it shows that he's aware of what's wrong with him, but he's an active agent in his own ignorance.

BoJack Horseman is a great show in that it presents its characters and situations as complex. There's nothing black and white. The cartoon with animal people presents its characters with more realism and complexity than a lot of live action shows and movies.

I had never seen one of your videos and when I saw the title I thought it was impossible, actually pulled it off! Respect.

As a Canadian who pretends to be American by spelling favourite as favorite or flavour as flavor, thank you for pointing this out!

You slayed this topic omg. Beautifully done 👏

You didn't defend his implied cheating on Honey but then again it was kinda a common thing

I'm so happy you made this vid. I love the Bojack series and I've probably seen it about 5 times but you gave me a lot of new nuance to Joseph.

Your content is immensely thought provoking and absolutely incredible. Good shit

It's always a pleasure to hear your perspective and witness your brilliant editing style .You are quite impressive, to say the least

Joseph reminds me of my grandfather that left my grandmother and 5 children after she wanted a job, she was a chronically depressed hoarder throughout her life and didn't take care of herself, the story of my great grandfather is so dark that I can't share it here

This is the beauty of BoJack Horseman. Every single character in the show, from the seemingly one-dimensional evil Joseph Sugarman to the seemingly innocent and kind Mr. Peanutbutter, is a complex morally gray character with countless personality traits to analyze. I love this show.

Glad the algorithm brought this up. I have seen the entirety of Bojack almost the same amount of times but never thought to have this take. Thank you!

The thing we must understand about Beatrice's memories, is that she's a unreliable narrator. The biggest example is of her former maid.

jellied beeAAANnnsss this made me cry in the best way. You've done the impossible and I appreciate you so much.

This video is fantastic, you make incredibly good points

this video was so incredibly insightful. i never would have thought of it, as someone who has watched bojack around 5 times. super well done.

Basically this video is: "it's fine, it was the '20's!"

me personally i've watched bojack horseman 13 times

I like how they leave it vague as to whether Joseph truly cared about his family and was a product of his time, a cruel sociopath who cared more about status than the people in his life, or likely both.

This video has floated around my recommended for a while now and I couldn't bring myself to click on it. Wow, I'm glad I did. You're awesome. You intellectualized his character perfectly.

Not sure if it’s mentioned in the video but didn’t Joseph also give Butterscotch a job?

She didn't even touch on the affair Joseph had with his secretary? Also in the begging when explaining the the whole biological morality it just sounded like she was evaluating the morality of a characted representing an adult and educated individual on the level of a toddler. Sure we have basic moral instincts but those basic morals grow and get refined with experience.

yay another canadian bojack fan!!!! tank you so much for adding another layer of depth to an already amazing show! this backstory always intrigued me, so you saved me the thc induced wiki searching lol

This was a really good video. I thought this kind of unbiased character analysis could be done for Joseph Sugarman I was glad to see you were up to the challenge.

This was an interesting take. It didn’t change my mind, primarily due to him openly stating a refusal to change rather than just not changing (which is still shitty, but at least you can claim ignorance) throughout the years. I can somewhat get it with Honey when it’s in the midst of everything, but not still refusing to do so even as his relationship with Beatrice deteriorated and time moved forward. Change is incredibly hard. There are changes I still have trouble implementing, but there’s not really any legitimate excuse for it other than just finding solace in the familiar, despite its effects. At some point, you have to take responsibility for your own actions and refusal to change and for your own ignorance irt how it affects the people around you., much like Beatrice and Bojack. And like both of them, I feel like there’s a difference between defending and contextualizing. Calling “era” a defense is kinda like when people try to defend slave owners or pre-1950s domestic abusers who were either “nice for the time” or made societal contributions. More extreme examples, but the point still stands. Much like a lot of the characters in this show, their backgrounds shouldn’t (and more often than not *cant*) be used as a defense, just as an explanation. Again, though, still a very interesting video.

The lobotomy bit reminds me of meatcanyon’s asylum video.

I think its very weird how people watch Times Arrow and take away from it that Beatrice has her own childhood trauma and the cycle of abuse and ladida, but then go on and absolutely vilify Joseph and Butterscotch. If Times Arrow showed one of their stories instead of Beatrices, im pretty sure people would feel bad for them and completely ignore that Beatrice might have had a traumatic youth as well.

i love/hate how much this changed my perspective, this is beautiful put together and youre writing is super inspiring, overall love this vid!!!

how DARE you be so reasonable

Here's a challenge if you're up for it: Can you do an "In Defense of Slade" from 2000s Teen Titans

honestly fair points all around 10/10 yap session going to watch another rn

I just love that we're still talking about one of my favorite shows. Good video as always Ariana.

"Defense" came to Middle English from the Old French "defens," and before that the Late Latin "defensa." It's not that YOU are spelling it wrong, it's that your country inherited an incorrect spelling from the British, whose dictionary was written by a drunk who didn't do his etymology homework.

I gotta be honest and say this one in particular wasn't sold to me. I think the fact he never learned to deal with his emotions doesn't excuse the fact he could've done better and actively never did, even Beatrice with all the trauma she had did have a moments of reflection where she did do the right thing, he never did the right thing, from start until the end, he is like Butterscotch, just a selfish man with selfish desires.

You're a genious! I didn't consider it from this perspective and you actually changed my mind, great video :)

I mean, that manic episode where he yelled at his wife almost killed his daughter and said wife.

Joseph is kinda tragic. He genuinely thought he was doing the right thing every time, and every time it ended up backfired. Lobotomy used to be hailed as a "miracle cure" and he believed it. He later realized his mistake when Honey couldn't care for Beatrice. (Watch a documentary about how it came to be, it's messed up) He burnt Beatrice's things because that's what he was told to do. He didn't correctly handle Beatrice's distress, though. He tried to marry Beatrice off to a successful family so she'd be set and have a comfortable life. When she ran off with a bum, instead, he got the bum a job to try and keep them from going broke. Instead, he got her stuck with someone who ended up being worse than she thought. Edit: Ok, so I commented early in the video, and you listed all the same stuff I listed. Sorry.

All of us are products of the time period and experience

I love your analysis of the BoJack characters so much, I'd love to see you do videos about the characters from Morel Orel and Venture Brothers.

This video was absolutely perfect and it just goes to show the beauty of the writing in this show

so you did a great job here but im worried that this idea that you can't judge people in the past for the standards of their time leaves us with nowhere to go in a lot of conversations. like yeah in the past it was common to give disabled people brain damage to make them easier to deal with. so we just, say oops and move on? demonizing people who made those decisions in the past is how we apply that same shaming social pressures to our current society so we don't make those choices anymore

Look, my issue with "not judging people in the past" is that harm is kinda universal. If I punched you in the face in the 1800's then did it in the 2000's, they BOTH feel like getting punched in the face. Slavery was ALWAYS slavery. Shit didn't magically hurt less just because it was more likely to kill ya and there was less people around to notice what happened to ya. When it came to his wife's "treatment", he was told by MEDICAL PROFESSIONALS that they knew how to fix it. And that shit STILL gets people hurt today! He lived in a time before Google, before most medical malpractice laws, AND a time before even television was invented! I don't excuse him being an adulterer, that was ALSO frown upon back then. I don't excuse him getting physical with his wife or ignoring pain, people still grieved and felt pain back then too. BUT, I will say the blame falls on the doctors who told him that they could "fix" his wife. He doesn't even like the outcome so I HIGHLY DOUBT he wanted it. Something tells me he kind of liked his wife the way she was BEFORE shit went down. That I will acknowledge. Because he's NOT a medical professional and therefore can't be expected to know better than them. His wife was CLEARLY going through something and wanted to be "better". He did what anyone woukd do and take her to a doctor, whose job IS to "fix" people. I'm still blaming him for being abusive tho. Because again, even back then shit like cheating on your spouse was seen as wrong. AS LONG as monogamous coupling has happened, it's been seen as a dick move. He's a product of his environment AND his own decisions. He chose to do things like cheat and he ALSO chose to try and get his wife treatment. He's not literally Hitler BUT feminism and other shit existed back then too. If you asked beaten housewives back then if they enjoyed being beaten, they would say no. And if you asked if it hurt, they would say yes. There was even a trope of "the nice gentleman who would never strike a lady" in many older stories. They knew people didn't like being treated like shit. They also knew slaves didn't like being slaves as well as other VERY obvious facts. The nuance here comes from a lack of access to education and proper medical care, NOT the idea that his abuse was somehow any less abusive back then OR more necessary. It wasn't and empathy has always been a thing. So has communication and respect, just people EVEN TODAY suck at those things and are not as above people of the past as they might think.

Dare you to try and defend butterscotch 💀

Ugh what a perfect little video essay