In defense of Sansa Stark 

Sansa is a victim and a pawn. She doesn't save herself and is constantly saved by other people who want to use her for their own ends mostly. She herself is a pretty bad person for lying about Micah, then rewriting history regarding that. And she hasn't really changed, her last chapter is her poisoning her own disabled cousin because Sansa is too dumb to realize Littlefinger is evil. I don't hate Sansa but I feel like the Sansa fans are imagining a different character than what's on the page. Sansa is not a main character. Her arc is learning how to spot when someone is a bad guy and so far she hasn't achieved this.

​@@testcase6997 (WARNING: VERY MINOR SPOILERS) I think Sansa is a difficult character for readers to understand, requiring a lot of understanding of human psychology, and of the themes of the story. Sansa grows up believing in "fairy tales", where justice prevails and you can easily tell good from evil. Where people who do bad things get punished, and good people are rewarded. She has grown up a people-pleaser from a young age, with appropriate skills and interests, and she has been praised and rewarded for those all her life. She's "the good girl", and she's rewarded by being betrothed to the crown prince. Her life until that points fits the narrative of her entire life. When Joffrey shows her an ugly glimpse of his true colours, cracks form. Sansa has to react to that. It's easy to just blame her and be dismissive, because we know Arya is in the right, her and Mycah did nothing wrong, and obviously Joffrey is a monster. But! Here's where it gets complicated if you want to look at character, not morality. Sansa is still betrothed to Joffrey after that confrontation. She tells her father about it, and he doesn't call off the wedding. Sansa subconciously has a choice to make. She can believe, broadly speaking, in two realities. 1) Joffrey is a monster. You can do everything "right", and then have bad things coming to you instead of your "rewards". The world isn't cosmically just. Your beloved father might let you marry a monster, who as husband and king will have complete control over you. You have no control over what happens to you. 2) Actually Joffrey isn't so bad, he only did it because Arya and Mycah were doing something they weren't supposed to do, and Arya attacked him when he chasticed Mycah for hitting a highborn lady. This fits the narrative of Arya as "the willfull, disobedient child" that Sansa has grown up with. Joffrey was gallant to Sansa until that moment. Her father wouldn't marry her to Joffrey if Joffrey was such a monster, her father loves her! Sansa has control over what happens to her, she just has to not behave poorly like Arya does. Same narrative as she has lived by all her life; be good and obedient, and you will get rewarded. I think it's easy to understand why anyone, let alone a child, would be subconciously tempted to believe in the latter, because the other option is unbearable. In the character of Sandor Clegane, Sansa meets an embodiment of cynicism. Sandor knows that the world isn't just. His evil brother Gregor was knighted by Prince Rhaegar. He has served the Lannisters all his life. He was in the Sack of King's Landing at Sansa's age. And he has grown into a man who kills children when asked, when he used to be a boy who wanted to play with the wooden knight; and was literally scarred for life by his brother for wanting that, with Gregor escaping justice for that. And Sandor is moved to tears by Sansa's compassion, on more than one occassion. Sansa clings to the fairytale, even to her own detriment, because the alternative is so dark and frightening. Even when her illusions are shattered at her father's death, she holds on to the belief that "it can't all be lies". Importantly, she doesn't throw away all her beliefs when met with a world that doesn't match them. When Sandor says look at my evil brother, that's what knights actually are, Sansa says "he was no true knight". When Cersei says rule with fear, Sansa thinks "if I'm ever queen I'll make them love me". When met with Littlefinger's ruthless scheming, Sansa starts to think that lies aren't so bad "if they are kindly meant". Sansa has a lot of bad influences throughout her story. What she learns from them is different from what they have each become themselves when hurt and disappointed by life. What is so beautiful about Sansa is that she represents an alternative to their dark cynicism, especially Sandor's. As she moves slowly away from her childish naivity, she adopts a more pragmatic idealism. She hasn't completely escaped from her willfull blindness as a coping mechanism, she isn't a perfect paragon, but she is growing quite a lot in subtle ways; learning how to move about in the "real world", with the challenge being not to lose her way in that. Sansa is contrasted heavily with Sandor. Sansa has Brienne searching for her, probably the closest to a "true knight" in the series; one that defies all the traditional trappings of knighthood, but embodies all the ideal substance of it. Brienne in turn intersects with Jaime, another person who grew from an idealistic child (one that wanted to be Arthur Dayne) to cynical cruel adult (who pushes children out windows "for love"). And the quest for Sansa Stark becomes Jaime's chance at honour. Sansa's story is so integral to the story's reconstruction of idealistic romanticism. ASOIAF isn't a grimdark deconstruction of fairy tales; rather, it asks us to face a realistic perspective on our ideals, and how to defiantly maintain those ideals in the face of a world that is only just of we make it so.

@@ancatdal i agree

I have a hard time understanding how the person who believes in the good of people to the point of naivete is a bad person. She's made many questionable choices but not really malicious ones. Her whole storyline with Baelish is watching her corruption and heartbreak play out as she has a literal identity crisis. She only begins to play the game as another person and still only to get by. Even at this point, she has shown She's not very good at it because she doesn't think like them. I will avoid direct references to not spoil things as it goes as far in as the sample chapters for Winds of Winter. Also, I call bullshit. She absolutely saved herself. I think this video really highlights that point. If Arya was in her place, she would have died in days. Sansa is able to navigate extremely dangerous situations just by being genuine and a proper "lady." Is that inherently less cool than swashbuckling? Yes. Still, her skill set is what has gotten her this far. That and her name. She is absolutely a damsel in distress. That's her fantasy archetype. The way George twists it is by having her knights always be the absolute worst and take her from one bad situation to another. In terms of not seeing Petyr for what he is, almost no one does. Ned doesn't either, and it gets him killed. He is also the person who does save Sansa from a real monster. In comparison, everyone seems better especiallyher savior. She also is not entirely sold on him but knows this is her best way to stay alive and learn how to not be the damsel in distress. To paraphrase Aemon, She's killing the girl to become the woman. Which is what is so tragic. Sansa is frustrating, often irritating, and ill-equipped for the dangerous world she resides. No one trained her in combat or subterfuge. Her deadliest skill is sewing. I don't expect her to fight out of anything. I do expect to see her start to outwit and out scheme those who seek to use her. That's her character arc.

Sansa IS STRONG and I'm so tired of people claiming she isn't because she isn't fighting. How horribly sad is her story in Clash and Swords 😭Feeling like she has to say the right thing or else she or her other family will die, the entire thing is tragic

Sansa’s plotline was also physically brutal, she was literally beat and stripped in front of the nobility

@@tatumgallahair7729 yeah but I meant that she was always in the castle while arya literally ate bugs just not to starve while traveling in war lands

And pretty much everyone who does want or try to help Sansa is lusting after her, literally still a child. Even the Hound. Just because he probably wouldn't act on it doesn't make it less intimidating and wrong

@@morgan4574 yes I never justify the Hound tbh

​@@morgan4574i can't believe people seriously ship her and the hound like 😭😭 she's literally a baby

Nah I was over that 10 years ago when I realised GRRM will never finish it

now she will obsess with winds of winter

@@kityhawk2000 so? The world is still fascinating and there is a lot to discuss about, it’s not just about waiting for winds

Indeed! Much approved😆 Another one joins🌞

@mrc-rrn lol I had those discussions 15 years ago. I first started reading those books in 1998. There's only so much you discuss without actual content. I'm not someone who agrees with hassling authors or thinking I'm entitled to a book but I'm just over it. GRRM has written himself into a creative cul-de-sac. There are many other good book series which have endings and a lot of new and up and coming authors who I'm more interested in now.

I hate Sansa early on, but not because of how she is a teenage girl, but because she reminds me of how if I were in her shoes I’d somehow do worse than get my dad killed

Sansa's only flaw was thinking she was in a romance novel and taking way too long to realize she's in Game of Thrones

I think it's understandable. The thing is, if you are an adult reading the tought process of a naive preteen is extremly anmoying. And fictional characters, being annoying is a worse crime than committing fictional violance. A lot if people just can't separate "character is annoying" from "character is bad", and have to invent justifications for their dislike.

I didnt even fucking know there was a whole fandom just focused on hating such a random character. Its hilarious.

It's mainly because the book establishes that it doesn't matter who you are, children will get crippled and good men beheaded if you make a mistake. But when sansa or danny make mistakes, all the people around them die and get crippled, it's like they have a magic shield that protects them from the physical consequences that every single other character has to deal with, in favour of some drawn out spiritual and emotional consequences so they can grow as characters, but understand while they are growing, much more likeable and vulnerable characters died horribly. But I've never thought sansa is responsible for neds death, that was obviously his own fault for not drawing swords when he had the chance.

Some people just get it 💯💯💯

Not for nothing but she did know Cersei had instigated both Lady and the butchers sons death after Joffrey got himself jumped by Arya and Nymeria for being a dick. I give her a pass because she was an 11 year old girl dreaming of becoming Queen but the signs were there if she wanted to see it.

@@robwest2813 Except for the fact that Ned's murder was absolutely counter to the interests of the Lannisters, which is why he confessed in the first place. Even if Sansa didn't make that calculation, your reasoning is STILL grossly flawed. - Ned is a Lord Paramount and Warden, from the oldest once-royal family in Westeros, not a butcher's boy. That MATTERS in Westeros, and it absolutely matters to Cersei. There is no reason to believe that Cersei instigating the death of Mycah has any bearing on Ned's safety. - Mycah was accused of striking the crown prince. His death is hardly a unique idea of Cersei's. The Hound just cut him down as a fugitive, and likely did not need any special orders from Cersei to do so. The fact that zero adults think anything of the killing suggests this is hardly an event that marks out Cersei as different from anyone else. - Cersei had nothing to do with Ned's death, aside from her own incompetence in managing the situation allowing it to take place. She did not order or instigate his death, she did not even want it to happen, and it was arranged behind her back. All in all, whatever conclusions you think Sansa should have drawn about Cersei are utterly irrelevant to the issue of Ned's murder. And she's not even an 11 year old dreaming of being queen, like this is a fantasy or ambition of hers, she is an 11 year old who was told she is going to be the next queen, like it or not, and she is making the best of her fate. Joffrey is not a teenage crush she fixated on for his attractiveness, wealth or entertainment profile, he is the person her king and parents decided she is going to marry. Trying to get on Joffrey's good side is not a matter of gratifying a personal desire for his affection, it is the POINT of her betrothal, to obtain royal favor for her family, and also critical to her personal and political survival and success. When Sansa acts nice to Joffrey she is doing her fucking job, exactly the same as when Robb trains in the yard or Ned beheads a deserter!

No? Even after they slaughtered her innocent wolf Lady. That would have given me a clue.

@@pickettmandi "They?" Which they? Cersei ordered the wolf killed, Joffrey ordered Ned killed, against Cersei's wishes. If there is any lesson to be learned from the incident with the wolf, it's that Cersei is a better bet to go to when you want something than Ned. It was her wishes that prevailed at Castle Darry, which tells Sansa that Cersei can make Ned let her stay.

Joffreys actions were unpredictable To everyone - and Ned’s death was helped along by several characters, not just Sansa’s. I mean the entire book is sort of how every event leads to it

Indeed. Ned is not taken captive because his plan is to send his daughters back North, it's because he directly confronted Cersei with the truth about her children. If anyone signed his death certificate, it was he himself.

​@autje1970 Ned is not on trial here! For shame! Has he it suffered enough?

the problem with this argument is there are several child characters even younger than Sansa and they're all more mature than her. Sansa is fine. Her chapters are entertaining. She herself as a person is meh. She still did betray her father and her chapters 100% consist of her being manipulated easily by pretty evil people. She's a dumb person. And that's fine! Not every character needs to be smart or capable. Sansa's character arc isn't that important and it's simply about her learning to judge which person is trustworthy or not. So far she is far from achieving this simple goal. Currently she's helping LF poison her own disabled cousin and she feels totally fine with that. People want Sansa to be so much more than she is. She's not clever, she's not good at running a castle or fighting or using her wits to escape a dangerous situation. She's a victim with no mental tools at her disposal.

Yeah Ned was grass either way.

Nope people react negatively to sansa BC of her attitude to Arya prior to what Arya did. Arya behaviour was just a kid being a kid. I'm an older sister and sansa behaviour to Arya is further more absurd.

@@themysticwarriorgal9465 Sansa isn't that much older than Arya. They're like what, three or four years apart? People just like Arya because she's a tomboy. A feminine girl is never going to receive as much respect from fantasy nerds. Sansa was a spoiled little princess, but her parents raised her to be. Catelyn was especially disappointed that Arya wasn't like Sansa, so that attitude influenced Sansa's behavior toward Arya too.

@@Hugo-G 3 to 4 yrs is still much older. People like Arya bc she's a wild fireball. She's interesting that's y people like her. Feminine women do get respect in media even more than tomboys. Her behavior may be influenced by her mom but she knew better. I doubt she even made an effort to connect with Arya.

@@themysticwarriorgal9465Feminine women do not get respect in media. They are either love interests or villains. Femininity is very disdained in western media.

Sansa and Jayne Poole called Arya horse face. That's indicative of the disdain Sansa felt for her. Arya was compared unfavorably to Sansa. Sansa was the perfect child. Arya was imperfect according to the norms she was required to meet. This would confirm Sansa's sense of superiority while causing Arya's resentment. Arya carried that resentment to the end of the show. She even used her martial skills to terrorize Sansa when they discussed the faceless men. The show did not make much of their conflict after season 1. But it was understandable given what had happened earlier.

Thank you!!! I've been saying this exact same thing for years now. Sansa looks like Cat, but is Ned at heart. Arya looks like Ned, but is just like Cat. The sun and the moon, different as night and day. It never ceases to amaze me how blind people can be due to their biases.

I'm four months late but I just wanted to say I've been stewing in Asoiaf lore for a decade now and this is the first original thought provoking proposition I've come across in like months if not years (I've seen it all). What a cool fresh way to look at Sansa's relationship to her father :)

THANK YOU!! I've been saying this forever

Yep yep yep!! It also makes her one of the best viewpoints in the story, imo, even if she's not your fav character - she's always at the center of the most interesting politics.

I'm not sure Cat was politically savvy. Her proposition to Renly was hilarious, like, why did you even bother coming?

@@pushista9322 Cat definitely didn't want to go (chapter 22, Clash, I'll paste the relevant passage at the end) - Robb threatened to send the Greatjon if Cat didn't accept. It was her idea, but she also knew from the offset that it was hopeless and says so multiple times in her inner monologue. But over and over, Cat is "right" politically and strategically - she leads Robb to see that Bolton was a better choice than Umber for leading the foot against twyin (tho that has long term consequences), she warns against sending Theon to Balon (balon might still have attacked the north, but winterfell wouldn't have been sacked), she knew how the freys were and how to handle them (the mistake was not anticipating they'd break guest right, but that literally surprises every other character as well), and on and on. she makes mistakes and draws wrong conclusions, but ... so does every other character in the book (that's the point). but she is keenly aware of alliances, how dynasties keep and lose power, the principles of feudal power, and the natures & habits & histories of the major (and many minor) lords/ladies/houses "Catelyn had never wanted this. She had told Robb as much, back in Riverrun. “When last I saw Renly, he was a boy no older than Bran. I do not know him. Send someone else. My place is here with my father, for whatever time he has left.” Her son had looked at her unhappily. “There is no one else. I cannot go myself. Your father’s too ill. The Blackfish is my eyes and ears, I dare not lose him. Your brother I need to hold Riverrun when we march-”"

@@Bookborn also it would be really cool to see you do a RU-vid collab with @glidus @altshiftx or @interestingnerdclub - if you haven't seen @glidus "fake theories" april fools video from two years ago, it's a hilarious overview of the madness of the fan theory community. also the glidus/alt shift x "iceberg" theory discussions really get into the madness. but it would be really cool to hear you (as a critical literary analyst who clearly has a good understanding of the series themes) in discussion with people who basically only make youtube content about ASOIAF - it would be fascinating to hear a conversation between a fresh perspective and a long time expert (there are so many theories and little details that i had no idea about the first time i read, and would be really interesting doing a deep dive into some of the hidden corners of the story)

@@mollofamerika Cat's chapters are tragic in a sense that she constantly undermines her own better judgement. As a daughter of a bipolar mother I do feel bipolar vibes from Catelyn. With Robb she literally drove him crazy with her passive agressive talk, all the way thinking to herself how she is wrong to antagonise him but she can't stop doing it. Or at the inn she thinks they're not ready for war (duh, Ned had just sent her to start preparations) and the next moment she seizes Tyrion. He is her prisoner but then she arms him ("where are the chains, sweet one?" - ever sarcastic Blackfish). Not to mention the beginning when she sends half of her family to hang out in KL with Lannister murderers (to the best of her knowledge). Cat's tragedy is her inability to keep a straight perspective of her own options and the world around her. She's all over the place and extremely self-focused.

Don’t mind me just weaseling my way into the discussion two decades behind pretending I’ve been here all along

😂@@Bookborn

She's honestly probably the story I'm most interested to see how it unfolds in either book 4 or 5, whichever one she's in (4 I'm assuming by your comment!). The poor girl has been through so much, what NOW?!

@@Bookborn Really great points. People forget what it is like to be a child. How deeply and intensely they want things, and how little they truly comprehend consequences of any kind. The book is in many ways about the failings of Ned Stark to truly see how the world is around him. In that way, Sansa is very much like her father, believing in the fairy tales of honour, duty, and law. He has his paper shield, she has her noble heart and ideals. They are both doomed because they can't see what is really happening (something Arya can do, or is at least learning how to do at this point). Sansa is a Stark through and through, too stubborn to break from her worldview and notice the way the landscape is changing around her. As an aside, if I might ask, what is that shirt you are wearing? I can only see the hand holding a sword, but it has piqued my curiosity.

Her chapters are consistently the best too, imo, especially since she tends to be right in the middle of all of the politics

He ain't pulling through. The books won't be finished ever.

@@doomdrake123 even if that's the case I'm happy with the books we got :)

@@trashedx Yeah the cookbook is fun ☺️

If you “finish” the story with the show, you really get to see Sansa’s entire arc. While I am amongst those who believe the show writers basically mailed in the last season and messed it up, I believe they were working within GRRs outline and completed everyone’s story arc the way he intended. So RAFO becomes WAFO.

the kid point while true doesnt really hold tho because they are all kids and arya whos even younger is pretty much a fan favorite. i think most of the hate for her comes from the show anyway where her character is very annoying/ mostly helpless and then overnight turned into littlefinger 2.0. just bad writing from the showrunners

@@JMH3363 Sansa hate for the show in the last seasons is TOTALLY justified. THAT I will admit. But her book counterpart does not deserve it all.

But Arya is a fan favorite for things I tried to explain at the end - I think there is bias towards her because her actions *feel* so much more modern/ or at least more attractive to modern audiences. Arya acts just as selfishly as Sansa, especially when you consider time period imo @@JMH3363

@@BookbornArya's selfish actions include: 1. Learning how to fight. Something that hurts literally no one and that her father supports her so much in that he pays for one of the best swordsmen to train her. 2. Not enjoying sewing especially with people who bully her (Sansa and Jeyne) 3. Defending a boy who was in the process of having his face mutilated by Joffrey who promised he was about to torture the child. This "selfish" act nearly gets Arya killed by Joffrey. All of Arya's selfish acts are her hobbies which hurt no one or her being heroic and putting herself in danger to save a friend from mutilation and torture.

The early chapters? First appearance: Arya spends an entire chapter pissing and moaning about Sansa and her friends horrible crime of sitting and chatting politely to each other, picking a fight, throwing a tantrum and blaming it all on Sansa. Next Appearance: Arya humiliates Sansa, commits treason(while Joffrey deserved some shit, he’s still the prince), then assaults Sansa before Sansa can even comment on anyone’s behaviour, then Ned murders Lady, instead of Arya’s literal killer pet. By that point we’re half way through the book. For the rest of the book, Sansa is ignored by her father, when he isn’t yelling at her, and has to deal with Arya still trying to pick fights and behave rudely. Sansa is perfectly polite to Arya at almost every encounter, until Arya’s actions lead to Lady’s death, she’s charming, she’s kind, she’s acknowledged as a smart, sweet kid. Even Ned, who treats Sansa like a doll he can play with and put down at will, acknowledged that.

I think Sansa is both sympathetic and unlikeable. Both feelings can coexist. I’ve never liked her character but I have sympathy for the positions she’s in.

She betrayed her father.

how@@pickettmandi

@@Glexzy she blatantly told Cersi his plans to return the girls to Winterfell.

​@@pickettmandiAnd ? Cersei was already against him because he knew about the incest

After reading the first book is crazy😭😭

AH someone else who is reading them for the first time!! Glad I'm not alone here 😂

I read ASOIAF for the first time this year too!! It feels so strange being a new fan to such an old fandom lol

I wrote this before I finished the video. Glad you agree.

Maybe the fact that Sansa betrayed her father to the people who killed her wolf is why many fans hated her.

Yes, about that. When I read chapters about Tyrion and Sansa's brief marriage, I was appalled by Tyrion's inability to start any small talk with her. That's when I fully realized how fandom idealised Tyrion because of Dinklage's charisma. In the books Tyrion is painfully aware of his ugliness and he's a walking knot of nerves and trauma. So when Sansa doesn't develop attraction for him in the first few hours (!!!) he totally gives up and adopts a passive attitude instead of actively planning to get her and himself out of this snake den of Kingslanding as soon as possible. He could totally win her over by discussing his trip to the Wall, his relationship with Joffrey, for god's sake, their shared interest in books! He could have led Sansa to the library, found her a great maester to teach her something, taken her to the Citadel for a visit. And of course he should have slept with her right away, because that was the only way to get in Tywin's good graces and achieve that freedom to leave KL. And this character is specifically praised by the fandom for being witty and empathetic. His interaction with Sansa really showed how traumatized Tyrion had been by Tywin and how he self-sabotaged all along.

@@pushista9322 I think something that a lot of readers miss with Tyrion is that's it's not so much his intelligence that defines him but rather his ego. He assumes himself to be smarter than everyone around him and doesn't make much effort to understand what they're thinking or feeling beyond what that information can do for him in the immediate moment. It's no coincidence that all the people he epically owned in A Clash of Kings come back out of the woodworks to condemn him as a murderer in A Storm Of Swords, he makes a ton of enemies, usually just because he's inconsiderate. He also literally thinks when Tywin offers him Sansa that he wants her physically and for her castle, so everything Sansa thinks about Tyrion still being another Lannister is more or less confirmed by where his mind goes. And I think part of that is how the show runners chose to sand off Tyrion's edges, because George seems to think Dinklage was the perfect casting choice and there are definitely moments in the show where you see book Tyrion come out of his performance, but Tyrion is funny and it's easy to get pulled into that and not remember or want to show his darker side. Most people don't even realize he's been so egotistical until book 5 because by then there's very little redeeming about him.

@@SoCalSon395 Fortunately, Dinklage won't worry about these differences too much... "In 2014, he said on The Late Show with David Letterman that he had once tried to read the books the show is based upon, but had found them confusing."

@@pushista9322 him and most everyone else who worked on that show lol, we know why George left

I had a part with that in it but decided not to stir the pot more 🤣🤣 like crazy to me how the same people who can say they loathe Sansa but Tywin is ok is wild (not that there is anything wrong loving a complicated character!! But there’s some cognitive dissonance in their reasoning lol)

YES. Thank you.

Yeah, I checked the chronological order, Sansa had been histericly desperate about their departure for 3 full days, refused to eat, said to Ned in no uncertain terms that he thinks that his decision is horribly unfair, ASKED for un explanation, acted like a child in desperate need of comfort and reassurance and after three days when she got only neglect and offence of different treatment for Arya she went to Cersei

@@user-xs7vi3wu1u Exactly...

I know the video you're talking about, or I've seen one that came to a similar conclusion. Sansa is a lover of fantasy novels pretty much, the character closest to the viewer in that way. She loves the fantasy stories she's been told, just like we love and obsess over this fantasy story. And yet the fanbase overwhelmingly hated Sansa, the one character who, like us, enjoys stories of that period of knights and lords and queens.

(I think it's sexism too but people get really mad when you say that. For example, someone told me in a comment that "you are a bad person if you like Catelyn, I can't imagine how you could be a good person" and then told me their favorite character was Tywin like EXCUSE ME)

@@Bookborn I wonder about the responsibility of the TV show for a lot of these attitudes. I could see a show-only fan, or someone who lets the show color their conception of the characters when they read. Basically, imagine Liene saying "you are a bad person if you like Nynaeve," and that her favorite character is Liandrin. On the TV show, Tywin is not sexist. We know this because he says so in a scene where he is explaining to his closest female relative why he does not trust her judgment. Charles Dance's acting, and Michelle Fairley's old lady voice and face don't really help the fans to make accurate & objective assessments of these characters. It doesn't help that the showrunners clearly like Tywin and have no use for Catelyn. When she and Ned part in Kings Landing as she prepares to return to Winterfell, he tells her to watch her temper. This character has displayed exactly zero instances of a bad temper or rash judgment influenced by anger. All the line serves to do is raise suspicions about her arrest of Tyrion. Instead of Tyrion's internal monologue acknowledging how skillfully Catelyn outwitted and outplayed him, we have Ned's invented remark planting the suspicion that her actions were impulsive and temper-driven, rather than calculated and politically driven. At one point Catelyn says on the show that the misfortunes of her family are her karmic punishment for not loving Jon Snow. In the later years of the show, when it departs utterly from the books, there is a scene where Jon Snow is acclaimed King in the North in Winterfell, by the Lords of the North and the Vale, *with Sansa sitting by his side* because all their brothers are lost or dead, but they have the nerve to say that Catelyn is evil for not loving Jon. They made the thing she fears a reality after dumping on her for having that fear! I cannot emphasize enough how dumb the writers are, how grossly they misunderstood the characters and story they were adapting and how bad people's takes are as a result.

​@@Darius-_ He generally gets criticism for real failings, that he as an adult man is responsible for. The point is the type of criticism Sansa gets.

@@Gunleaver How was Catelyn's decision to imprison Tyrion well (I believe this is what you're implying) calculated? She outwitted him wrt where they were going and how he would inevitably plot his escape, sure. That's nothing to do with how good of a "move" it was, as we see later.

@@lircox Because she turned a position of weakness, into taking the power and capturing one of the suspects in the attempt to murder her son, and a possible player in whatever treason the Lannisters were up to. If a bunch of events over which she had no control had not conspired against her, and a few other people had not stupidly acted against their own obvious self-interest, she could have preempted the whole plot against her family by Littlefinger, and possible unraveled the twincest from a position of power for her faction.

I'm not a huge audio book person 😭 I really struggle focusing when I'm listening, so I think I'd vastly prefer just reading it physically. Maybe I could try listening on a reread when I already know the main stuff

@@BookbornI think they meant that you should record one, not listen to one. And yes, I would agree with that suggestion.

@@weepingscorpion8739oh LMAO you are right! That’s so funny, several people have told me that since starting my channel but I feel like my voice is the worst 😂

@@Bookborn Oh, trust me, your voice is very pleasant to listen to. So I encourage you to at least consider it. :)

Oh my, a book club at work! Where do you work?

lmao yes I wanted to acknowledge in the beginning that it's slightly embarrassing I'm going through the emotions everyone went through a solid decade or more ago but HERE WE ARE.

ugh RIP Ned until the end of the world, I love him so much, but like...yeah he makes so many mistakes, Ned gets Ned killed 😭

I feel you guys are a bit “try hard” in defending Sansa. Of course Ned made some critical errors but you are also ignoring Sansa’s direct role here. She DELIBERATELY went against Ned’s wishes when she went to the queen. Being 11 doesn’t mean she has no agency, you can forgive that decision but it’s still a decision she made. She’s an 11 year old in a world where people are almost considered adults at 13-14. You’re putting too much of a modern world view here. I think Sansa as a character is sympathetic and also unlikeable. Unlike Arya who’s extremely immature as well but is likeable because people see her story and her efforts being about more than herself. She constantly in her chapters worrying about her family and trying to find a way back to them. That is not true for Sansa. If I remember correctly we even get a line from Sansa where she admits to even asking about the well-being of her own sister…that says a lot. And I don’t recall her ever following up and asking about Arya once she finally remembered that she exists.

​​@@m3driver245 Sansa only betrayed Ned after he betrayed her twice, and he was her father, not the other way around. 1) He gave her away to a family of murderers, to the best of his knowledge. 2) He put her in the position where she had to testify against her future husband. And then he killed her pet direwolf. By the time Sansa went to Cersei Ned had already disowned Sansa twice.

Ned's honour doesn't kill him. Ned had a plan. He is a battle commander. It's his wife that ruins his plans. Cat captures tryion instead of doing what Ned tells her. She was meant to go back north and get the north ready for war. Instead, her actions directly resulted in Ned getting injured and lucky Jamie himself didn't kill Ned himself.

@@jamiecoleman773 Yes, exactly so

Ok you’re so valid for this we do need to start including Petyr in all of this. I’m still not sure I’ve fully processed the WILD info we learn about him at the end of ASOS 😭😭😭

I think we need to add Robert to the list as well. I blame him 100% for Lady’s death. Stick up for your friend, Robert!

⁠@@midorisour2844 I agree with you that Robert was undoubtedly responsible for Lady’s death since it’s Robert (not Cersei or Ned) who held ultimate power. Though it’s my perspective that it’s less Robert didn’t stick up for Ned, but more Ned didn’t stick up for Sansa. Robert just wanted to be done with this whole situation, and it was Cersei, not Ned, who was more insistent determining Lady’s fate. It’s heartbreaking that Ned didn’t try to leverage his friendship with Robert for his daughter’s sake and that this leads to his regret regarding Lady later.

@@katlikesgibbon20 True. I wonder if Ned wanted to support Sansa. I felt like Ned really didn't have the power to stand up to Robert. Ned didn't even seem all the interested in becoming the hand of the king in the first place but I don't think he was able to say no. When he finally does stand up to Robert, Robert freaks out and threatens him. I find it interesting that people criticize Sansa for being naive when so many of the adults are just as naive! I mean, Robert led a violent rebellion, took the throne, and then realized that being king is not exciting. Talk about naive. That being said, I love all of these characters so much, including Robert. 😆

No one is forgetting LF being the main villain lol. You're doing this pedantic thing of "um you can't blame the loss of the football game on our team's wide receiver dropping every pass. you do know the other team was trying to score points right?" yeah we know LF is evil, we're criticizing the failures of our own "team" or the protagonists. There's no need to state the obvious that the bad guy is bad.

Exactly, EXACTLY 💯💯

I don't like how she talks to Septa Mordane, or how she thinks of Jeyne Poole, Micah, and Jon

@@lorigarry5585 and I suppose your thoughts about everyone were perfectly fair and kind when you were 11?

@@thing_under_the_stairsI'm sorry, you're giving excuses and reasons why she is a bad person. You're not countering the idea that she did do those things.

Right now she is helping littlefinger poison her cousin lol.

When I first read the books (I've never seen the HBO series), I too kept unconsciously aging Sansa up do to some of the more mature elements of her chapters. Had the same problem with Dany too. I also kept forgetting that Brienne is only nineteen or eighteen years old.

Also I must say, Bookborn is one of the most important literary analysts in the RU-vid community. Her academically driven approach is 🔥Keep kickin' ass and takin' names Bookborn! You are awesome.

I agree I never understood the hate of Catelynn

Thank you so much!! I'm going to probably read the Dunk and Egg stories in Jan and then Feast in Feb! Although maybe I'll move it up...I've already purchased Feast in excitement lol Catelyn has been requested so much in the comments of this video lol so I'll for sure have to do a video on her at some point, although it won't be quite as easy as the Sansa defense video, despite the fact that I love her

i am also in love with your journey and am super happy to see you get into the world of ice and fire. i only got into it last year and have been loving your vids on it. i am also a defender of cat and sansa, tho in the sansa arya race arya will win out for me because sansa and jeyne pool were such bullies to arya in book 1. @@Bookborn

Lmao the number of people already asking for this 🤣 I’ll have to do it but it may need to wait until I do a full reread. Her defense is more complicated Lmao

​@@Bookborn There's a great RU-vidr called HillsAlive and she literally has a video in Cat's defence where she repeats every minute "actually Cat's plan was so smart", "honestly Cat's plan was the smartest possible" etc. 😂 Defending Cat is only possible from emotional perspective like "she's a mother!" and "she grieved!" From a logical perspective, Cat was bipolar and struggled to keep a stable perception of her own abilities and the world around her. One minute she is afraid that many of her father's bannermen may refuse to rally, the other minute she demands them to rally. One minute she is ready to give Walder Frey (her dad's bannerman) her two children, the other minute she hopes she doesn't have to make good on that promise. One day she sends Sansa away to marry into a family of murderers (to the best of her knowledge), the other day she starts a war while her daughter is still there with the enemies, yet another day she releases Jaime with an escort of TWO PEOPLE across the war-ridden terrain for a promise to release Sansa... through a back door? And instead of passing Ned's last instructions to Robb (i.e. keep Theon close) Cat keeps talking passive aggressive to him antagonising Robb to the point he stops listening to her completely. Even then she fails to mention it was Ned's last words! Cat's chapters are all about her own feelings and drama, she's like an actress constantly playing for some invisible audience, her inner dialogue is ridiculously self-centred and this is what gets her whole family killed.

It's not a great argument because the ages in asoiaf are all messed up and there are characters younger than Sansa who are much more mature

that means nothing. you know just because characters are treated as adults doesn't mean they are actually adults right? like rob is only 15 and shouldn't have the responsibilities placed on him. same with Jon.@@testcase6997

literally jaime, a full grown male who has so much power just in name alone was so easily manipulated by cersei… she’s vile LMFAO

Arya is def NOT more mature LMAO like she is just as selfish and acts more like a child than Sansa tbh! I think the most mature child is Jon, but he has two years on her and at that age every year counts for a lot@@testcase6997

I agree with you! Eleven is very young.

Oooh I think Arya has a HUGE chip on her shoulder, actually - I just think it's in a way that more palatable to the average modern reader, and so they overlook it when they won't for Sansa. But I guess that's why I had to make this ranting video about it 🤣

​@@Bookborn I agree!! Arya and even Robb have chips on their shoulder but it's not as easy to spot. Sansa is a literal princess in those austere surroundings of the North so she stands out. And Arya is introduced as an underdog from the get go..Arya Horseface.. that doesn't help Sansa at all, the girl who seems to have every reason to love her life, with a potential royal future. Also, never stop ranting !😂 Your Asoiaf content brought me to your channel❤ Thanks for going so in-depth into these books..What most booktubers do is a review and not much else.

Also, Sansa is not privy to the information that makes her family members suspicious of the Lannisters. Her JOB is make nice with them, and to make them sympathetic to her and through her, the Starks. Let's not forget, she did not choose Joffrey, nor pick him off the cover of Tiger Beat. She was ordered to marry him and set about making the best of it, after being raised to judge a potential husband by his rank and status! From a practical perspective, Joffrey is the best choice of a husband, just for the power he has and the influence his wife will wield. It's what sways Catelyn & Ned to agree to the match. Even when she objects to Ned breaking the betrothal, how is that different from Cersei objecting to being matched to Willas Tyrell or Balon Greyjoy? In each case, they speak of the attractions as a lover, but the proposed course of action would reduce the political power she could otherwise enjoy. Sansa is not making those calculations consciously as Cersei is, but power calculations are why noble girls are trained in Westeros to view power and rank as desirable traits. She's been trained to desire the crown prince, because as a general rule, that's the best match for her family (Ned is something of a freak in that he almost certainly uniquely among the nobles of Westeros with an unmarried pre-menopausal daughter never contemplated the idea of her marrying Joffrey before Robert proposed it). And again, she can't change her situation by sniping at Joffrey or complaining, so she tucks the bad stuff into the memory hole and goes ahead painting a rosier picture of their relationship in her mind as a coping mechanism. No one faults Daenerys "if I look back, I am lost" Targaryen for doing something similar and "loving" a slave-trading, rapist barbarian warlord or picking him over her brother, who was her sole protector and source of support for a good chunk of her life. Joffrey never compelled Sansa to have sex in spite of saddlesores and groin muscles hurting from spending days astride a horse.

Arya easily would have survived what Sansa went through. What part do you think she wouldn't have been able to do?

she's talked quite a bit about Catelyn in her previous individual book reviews, but if she did drop one about her as an individual like this, I would definitely watch it immediately as well 😂

lmao I cannot tell you how many comments I've gotten requesting I do a Catelyn defense video. I think I'd have to reread the series first for that one, it's a lot more complicated than Sansa I feel like! Right now I've mostly been like "well I like her so....the end?" 🤣

@@Bookborn Well, people blame her for urging Ned to take the Handship, for her reaction to Bran's fall and her subsequent behavior wrt managing Winterfell and caring for her other sons, her treatment of Jon, listening to Littlefinger, starting the War of Five Kings by arresting Tyrion, taking him to Lysa, instead of Winterfell, believing Lysa's letter, not returning to Winterfell with Bran and Rickon, arguing for peace, and even with her legit errors like giving away too much in her negotiations with Walder Frey, or letting Jaime go, they tend to be interpreted in the worst possible light, outright calling her a traitor who thinks of her father's family before her husband's (what kind of horrible bitch would do such a thing, that is unforgivable, except when Sansa does that opposite, then it's how dare a noblewoman take the side of her marriage family instead of her birth family), or who selfishly cares only about her kids (the rest of the time, she is heartless and doesn't love her children enough). The discourse in the fandom wrt Catelyn is well beyond the like/don't like phase.

@@Bookborn You should do an ACCUSATION of Ned Stark. Cuz the foolish man is the crux of all present Stark ills. I like the guy but he is awful father and terrible leader.

@@doomdrake123oh no but I love Ned 🥲🥲 I’m apparently a stark girl through and through

Totally agree! I always blamed Robert for what happened to Lady. He was so checked out that he had become a bad father, king, and friend.

I'm so surprised when people read ASOIAF so young! Did you find it overly long? Were some historical parts annoying? Did you find gore and sex scenes disturbing?

@@pushista9322 not at all 😂 I was fully in love with this book, it completely changed my tastes! I was super calm while reading cruel scenes. There were a lot of plot parts that I didn't get the first time and understood way later after rereading 👌

I have a feeling I will absolutely be descending into madness 🤣

it's cause arya doesn't look down on commoners and has positive virtues like self sacrifice, loyalty, resourcefulness, kindness. Aside from saving Dontas, which is a very important act of kindness and wits, Sansa acts selfishly and cruelly in book 1 and the other books she is just a victim caught in the whims of the villain who has her.

Despite some issues I have with the way Martin describes bodies, he has some of the best female characters I've read in fantasy, period. They are all allowed to be just as flawed and complex as his male characters, and represent a wide range of female experiences, imo.

Sansa gains a good grasp of politics as she goes along. She certainly didnt have that for the first couple of books at all.

@@nzcamel3She absolutely did. I think you’re mixing up childishness with political astuteness. In the first book we see her analysing Renly and it shows that she knew every single one of their houses and who they were loyal to, and she treated them accordingly. I believe in that same chapter she was even complimented for how smart she was. It is possible to be smart and naive at the same time, especially when you’re a kid 😉

@@rai2423 you are mixing up "having a good grasp on politics" with being well informed when it comes to which house is which and who is who in that house. You can know all this information (like knowing what parties are in your local government/opposition etc and who leads those parties etc) and STILL know very little about the actual politics. Especially the nuances that sit a bit beneath the surface. There are good reasons that children and youth don't understand politics well, and it is that it takes years of exposure to learn about in any detailed way.