3 x Herschel IR heaters installed in the kitchen. We also have the original underfloor heating but as you'd expect UFH = slow response. Match that to an unpredictable day to day life schedule, we opted to stick 3 IR heaters on the ceiling for "short boost" requirements. These are linked via Tuya to HA. HA knows when we're in / out, day / night, current temp, target temp and switches the IR panels on / off if required based on a set of rules only if the house is occupied. We like them because a) they provide boost heat, b) the API linked with HA automations = seamless operation, and c) they're tucked away in the ceiling ... but would we have them as the prime source of heat for the house? Definitely not. I'd be off my rocker! Horses for courses... for this application, they're 100% Tony the Tiger!
Yes agree with all your arguments. I live in a cold flat and cannot get decent insulation installed, and having trouble finding anywhere to put a heat pump. I have a 700w infrared heater in my bathroom which is fantastic and the only way I can enjoy a shower on a winter morning without freezing. So I think there's a small part they can play as targeted secondary source. Please keep up the good work
I wonder if it would be better to modify these sort of claims to be something along the lines of "113% performance" where the baseline is standard resistive convection heat tech. Would it be less jarring for people who are going to be naturally skeptical of such claims?
I just rewatched the FC video and i want to clear a few things up. He didnt deflect the question of running costs compared to gas. In fact he outright said "we cannot compete with gas" he also pointed out that new gas boilers wont be alllowed to be fitted beyond 2025 but the video was published two years ago and that may have changed. It was also stated, by Robert I believe, that you would not save by ripping out a gas system and putting in infrared but you would be doing your bit for the planet. The comparison tests which were carried out sounded as though they were conducted under realistic conditions with an average outside winter temperature. He sounded as surprised as anyone that the heat pump performed so much less well than promised but from what I can gather from the examples I've seen a low COP is not unusual in winter and this claim of 4x is only true in warmer weather, anything higher in summer only. Regarding your comment on what he ostensibly said about the number of homes for whom a heat pump would not work. He did not say that; he said that for 90% of homes a heat pump is "not practical." Now from my own situation I can confirm that is the case.. it isn't practical for various reasons, some down to my personal circumstances and some due to the physical state of the property. I dont know where he got the figure from and yes he should have been challenged but he did not state that a heat pump would not actually work in 90% of properties. I thought the statement that because air is not being heated then meeting cold walls and condensating thus creating damp made sense. If the structure of the room is gradually heated over time then damp will not start and will likely be eliminated if present. This makes sense until you think about your experience with shading but although i accept you may be right and unheated spots may become damp I wonder if you had the right size and placement of the panels you used, that seems to be crucial when designing a system.. in the same way that a heat pump only works well when the design is good. It seems that as with all these things solar panels and battery storage are key to alleviating higher running costs. All those who are involved with selling IR point out the lack of service costs and longevity of the product. This seems to be a valid and not insignificant point to consider when looking at high running costs. So, no I dont think these people are being disingenuous, nor do I think their claims are dangerous to the cause of renewables. No more than the plethora of incompetent and uncaring installers of heat pumps. In fact I'd go so far as to say they are much more dangerous to the cause and will continue to be if some sort of standard of responsibilty is not enforced.
Whilst you do make some good points that I agree with (such as the danger of poorly installed and commissioned heat pumps!), there are others that we'll have to agree to disagree on. Such as: - Heat pumps only achieve COP of 4 in warm weather. False. - Practicability of heat pump installation is subjective and many make assumptions before having an actual survey carried out. Whilst I don't want to go through and audit every single word that was spoken, the vibe I get, rightly or wrongly is that they were pushing IR as an ideal alternative to HP for whole house heating. In further news, I have received correspondence from Herschel since the publishing of this video and I have invited them to come on the channel and put their case forward.
I understand your criticism, I certainly won't install whole house IR heating. I work from home and our house is heated by gas, I want to switch to a heat pump system but I've not done so yet (mainly due to all the conflicting information). However in the winter of 2022 I bought a portable 900W IR panel and sat it behind me where I work. My reasoning was that even at 100% efficient, it was cheaper than heating the entire house when it's just me here during the day. In the winter of 2023 I found a smaller 150W under desk IR heater that is adjustable and I'd say I never run it above 100W. It shines its heat onto the tops of my legs and the effect is stunning. So this is my issue with heat pumps, people tell me that the best way to heat the house with a heat pump is to keep it running at low temperatures for longer. They also say that zoning hammers efficiency, so if I only want to heat one small room during the day, then that heat pump big enough to heat my entire house is going to be cycling. So sure I could leave the heat pump running heating the entire house all day and the efficiency would be better than the max 100% IR panel, but I'd be actually consuming a lot more. So I see a mix of systems as being a better way to go if total usage is the main driving factor and not efficiency. While the whole house is occupied it makes sense to use the most efficient system possible and that is likely a A2A or A2W heat pump. When the house is not fully occupied then IR is a quick way to feel warm locally.
During most of winter, my heat pump would come on for 30 minutes at a time, drawing 600w or so, then it would go off for 30 minutes and repeat the cycle. Of course this was variable based on outside temp but just an example. Cycling is normal and expected, short cycling is not. Some of the heating may be able to be load shifted to cheaper TOU tariffs too. As the thermal mass of the home is built up, the whole house is an even and warm temperature. That means whichever room i'm in doesn't suffer with drafts. I also used to use the 200w IR panel I reference for heating my home office before the heat pump was commissioned. It was ok, but my hands above the desk would get cold after a while. Also keep in mind that the individual heat loss of that room will increase dramatically if the rooms around it are not heated. I too was dubious/sceptical of many of the claims surrounding heat pumps, but now that i've experienced both the comfort and possess my real world data to show the financial savings, there is no going back!
I believe as part of an overall solution to moving from gas or oil heating systems they could have a part, a small one but still viable. The ASHP will be the main think to use and getting people to understand that your whole building becomes the energy store, so all rooms should be heated equally to the same temperature.The ASHP will work well in any building, the difference being that an uninsulated one could pay 30% more. Or putting it the other way, if you have an ASHP it could be the similar price as gas due to the higher prices of electricity. But then adding insulation later will be able to lower your running costs. In my experience the house is always warm and comfortable. The difference than standard gas is that instant high heat to warm up a cold space as the heating had not been on for x hours. Infrared for a small room or as an additional heat source may work, but as you say people must understand the line of sight and the description of a camp fire is a great one!
in my office i have a 300w deep IR heater. its very good. feels like a hot sunny day outside a small window. very directional and i wish it sensed me to switch on....as its a waste of power to leave ir heaters on all the time.
I work from home in a converted garage (3m x 2.6m), so radiators off the heating system aren't an economical option. I've got a 600w IR panel on the ceiling and a 400w panel under my desk. When very cold I used both, when a bit less cold I use one or the other, depending on which part of me is cold :) I would agree that they haven't quite lived up to the expectations I got from watching the FC show about them, but as an alternative to the 1kw oil filled radiator or the 1.5kw blow heater I was previously using, they do seem a bit more cost effective on the whole, but I agree, they don't seem like they'd be good for a whole home option. I think it's a fair point that sometimes FC and EE come across more like an ad for a particular company, that a truly unbiased reviewer of technology.
@@johnhunter4181 Hahaha Ooof! Rude! ;) I've actually looked into a solo AC unit recently. Seems from what I've seen it would be around £500, plus installation on top of that, so a lot more than the ~£200 I spent on the IR panels. I may consider it in future. Also, if my math is correct, isn't your 2.5kW/400W a COP of over 6? Is that realistic?
@@theboffin1 Yep, fair enough I was pretty optimistic ...and a bit unkind but my point is there are better alternatives than fan heaters. I checked the figures on Panasonic's 2.5kW and it quotes a SCOP of 5.2 - so it's likely it could reach 6 at some high point in the season. It can modulate down to an input of 160W. There are some other self-install a/c available but a friendly f-gas man could install one pretty quickly. I think they're a perfect solution for outbuildings but we use two 3.5kW units for all the heating (and cooling!) in our fairly efficient 5-bed house.
Totally agree with your criticism. I was extremely disappointed that Roberts didn’t challenge some of the BS he was being presented with concerning the heat pump comparison.
I think he mentioned recently that while the commenters are pretty knowledgeable, the bulk of their viewers just want a feel-good video about cool new tech. If they discuss the pros and cons in detail, the number of views drops significantly. Personally I think they should split that sort of thing off to a separate channel.
@robinbennett5994 that makes a lot of sense. They already have multiple channels so why not have the main channel as short, upbeat advert type videos and one of the secondary channels could have proper detailed videos?
Robert is a high-level guy, not someone for deep tech knowledge, all he really does is introduce the stuff to the audience. I wouldn't rely on him nor many of their presenters for technical explanations except perhaps Helen.
Yes, this is really frustrating. Trying to get to the truth is so hard already. I was at an exhibition two years ago and the IR sales people put reliability as a main reason to use their product. Sure they need no maintenance but if you use it for whole house, what you gain in low or no maintenance fees, you lose in efficiency.
Social housing providers are installing Nexgen infrared wallpaper on the ceiling for some of their housing stock. They also install Battery storage to take advantage of the very cheap overnight rates. They are still in the testing phase but householders are very happy with the results
I liked the fully charged show / everything electric earlier on before it became very corporate and turned into a large enterprise. They now seem to be the promotion channel for all sorts of random companies and promoting their shows, the magic has gone for me and I no longer subscribe. Their subscriber figures are just over a million but it's grown very slowly over the last couple of years.
It's a shame, but I do think they are still doing good things and pulling the narrative in the right direction, even if there may be some room for improvement.
They're still good, but you have to have your critical brain in gear, as they seem to be a bit too gullible in the pursuit of being positive about going green.
They no longer engage with the RU-vid community, just keep pushing out content without playing 'devils advocate' as it were, this example illustrates that. As the uptake in green technologies increases they are starting to lose their credibility and direction. Often an issue when small organisations rise up against the established incumbent industries. Before they know it they fall into the same pitfalls as the ones they were replacing. I think Octopus is heading that way unfortunately. They have grown very large quickly, but there are cracks starting to appear over their customer service and billing issues.
I used to watch it but its so relentlessly optimistic/ trusting about every single thing thats on it i had to give up. Now to be fair theres an element of self selection there you wont choose to review something you know is rubbish, but even so whatever they review they are too nice and horribly cheery about it especially RL. Most likely because they dont want to be like a recent reviewer whose Honda EV was taken away half way through the week because their initial review was scathing.
I've a couple of infrared panels under my home office desks as a secondary source of heating, and they work great. However, I agree for a primary source of heating it wouldn't be an even comfortable temperature in the house, and too expensive to run.
Your headline is misleading, where I agree infrared panels are not viable as the primary heat source in a house they are not a waste of money, I use one on the ceiling of my garage workshop and it makes my workshop comfortable to work in during the winter months and cost-effective compared to convertor or oil-filled heaters, and my feed don't get cold because I have carpet on the floor. As to heat pumps, yes I would dearly love one but in my 1983 Wimpey-built house the cost to replace my gas boiler, all the radiators and piping and the subsequent redecoration not to mention the disruption is far to expensive.
Just FYI, we just installed a heat pump in our 1983 Wimpey-built home. The disruption wasn't bad and the cost was fairly affordable too. Jury is out on the efficiency as it's only been installed in May to ensure we didn't need the heating system whilest it was being installed. But! The benefit of being on mains pressure throughout the house and having the cold water storage tank in the loft removed is amazing!
Yes, that's the kind of use case that makes sense. Workshops etc... Unless you've had a couple of quotes and proposals for a heat pump I wouldn't write one off just yet. For most, the upheaval is very minimal.
Really interesting to hear the downsides of the technology as I too had only seen the positive benefits of the panels. I was considering them for the bathroom and on suite to turn on and have that instant heating whilst using the bathroom, and turning them off straight away and not having wasted heat pre-heating the bathroom or lingering there after we've left. This seems to me still to be the only sensible use of this technology. Happy to hear anyone's thoughts on this point.
Fully charged has some bias here & there like all but not as honest/clear as - well you - so well done & thanks for another great informative video & background work.
For the very specific use case of my working from home at a desk in the day and then leaving the house for a few days, would an under desk infra red heater powered by my solar panels be effective. I'd love to have a heat pump but that's not an option ATM.
@@PaulNewport yes, IR panels have their place as single point heaters. Just not as a whole house solution. You may find electric heated slippers, body warmer etc a better solution if you are just trying to keep yourself warm without losing heat to the rest of the house.
It’s like a minefield out there knowing what’s true or false, good or bad with the heat pump or heating the home with different things on the market place in today life , this government grant should be allowed by each household to spend what’s correct for them as long as they can prove they got rid of the gas boiler.
I'm willing to bet that in 20 years, almost every home will have a heat pump and other options will virtually disappear, in the same way that gas boilers currently dominate the market. Between A2A and A2W you can cover 99% of buildings in the UK.
@@UpsideDownFork Pretty obviously at this moment in time it’s a bit like the Wild West in the heat pump market , get to hear about bad instillations be it wrong size heat pump to wrong size pipe size, plastic circulating parts , just bad installer that really don’t know what parts is needed so they over complicate things rather than making it simple which in turn makes the efficiency be terrible. Basically it’s a mess . The industry needs to sort out a basic kit of what is needed to get an optimum efficiency not just for installers but a basic knowledge for household, it seems to be far to many parts and half of the parts you don’t really need expansion vessels , circular pumps again the list is endless , the industry must be limping a lot having shot themselves in the foot on a daily basis, actually that might be good for the consumer = if you see the installer limping don’t open the door.
@@UpsideDownFork one would think that the manufacturers would be insisting on a standard because in the long run it would be good for everyone = it’s not rocket science just basic economics = this is our standard which will generate more people going over to heat pumps = simple.
@@KavanOBrienthis is what's putting me off, that and all the remedial work I'd need to have done, just can't afford it either financially or in terms of my energy and health.
They have their uses but as you say heat pumps should be the majority solution, mainly to reduce UK energy consumption so that renewables can meet demand. What do you think of their 'church' specific product? Seems like a better market for IR?
Yep, if ethics were even still a thing in business, then I would encourage Herschel and the likes to skip the home market, unless they just sell bathroom mirrors and occasional garage heaters. Industrial/occasional use for things like a church make a lot of sense to me, but i'd love to see proper calculations and evidence to support it.
Bought my 1st panel, its only to help in the bathroom and on the ceiling. So far its rubbish, left on for a good 30mins and it radiates no more than about 350mm so top of head can just about feel the heat the rest of the body from shoulders down nothing! Still cold. As you said heats one part back or front or top. Will be selling it on.
Thanks for this video, I agree with everything you said. I am contemplating a heat pump with underfloor heating or skirting board heating. I have a large 1930's bungalow. The current gas heating works really well but I'm not sure what to go for... it won't be infra red panels!
@UpsideDownFork I've watched many Heat Geek videos and their debate about heat pumps with the Skill Builder channel. I also watch FC and The Everything E channel and it is all rather overwhelming and often appears too good to be true. I also don't know who to trust.
@@Goodchappy I've scrutinised heat geek, their website articles and their videos and have not yet found something that causes me any doubt. Skill builder channel is full of Roger's limited subjective views. FC and EE are great for raising awareness but lack any technical information or guidance.
that is very helpful - what about if a flat in is a new built and I have - in the last year - only needed to turn on the heating 3 or 4 times a year for less than 3/4h each time? Just to give you an idea, the average temp in my flat in the winder is 23/24 and I often open windows as well. I am considering them because the radiators that the developers installed are huge and very ugly, so I would get so much more space back in my small flat
Correct me if I'm wrong, but we live in a 2 bed bungalow, open plan, 70s build and have a 5kw log burner. When on, the log burner within an hour or two will bring the space around it up to temperature nicely, but at the cost of around £10 for just 3 - 4 hours. Since wood is significantly expensive. We don't have radiators in the main areas of the property, so getting radiators installed, pipe work, servicing, it's all going to be be many thousands of pounds. We went ahead and purchased two panels from Herschel, a 600w and a 800w, and like you say, they didn't really work well after many hours, though, unlike a log burner, would cost less for that time, but they'd never turn off. The reason? It's quite simple - we have nowhere near enough panels to top up the heat lost by the property, after getting a survey done, we've calculated that we need around 5-6kw of heat distributed around the whole property, which, when left on via a thermostat in each area would dynamically control that particular area, and, like their booklets say, that they gradually heat the space, it's not instant, and may take time to work
@@ryanholton961 when it comes to running costs, a much more cost effective option is an air to air heat pump, also known as an air conditioning unit. They will run at a cop of above 4, meaning that for every pound you spend on electricity they will provide 4 times as much heat into your property compared to IR panels. They are also a lot quicker, easier and cheaper to install than a wet heating system.
@@UpsideDownFork Sure, but the idea here I believe is that to heat a room to 20 degrees given an outdoor temperature of 0 degrees, so long as the wattage is enough, and the panels are distributed throughout, then for 1 hour at UK energy rates might cost £2, but then the property is "topped up" with heat, and then not on for longer periods - get this, to combat the winter, why not just turn the panels on in summer time, and leave them set to a temperature? In summer months the building feels physically warm to the touch
@@ryanholton961 yes, but air to air heat pumps work in exactly the same way. You can just top up as needed. They don't need to run low and slow like the air to water systems do. Ultimately, your property will lose X watts of heat during a 24 hour period. You may choose to put all that heat into the property for 5 hours of the day or spread across 24 hours but the amount of energy required to heat a property is broadly the same. I'm not saying the IR panels won't work, they will. It's just that they will ultimately cost a LOT more to run compared to heat pumps.
@@UpsideDownFork Sure, I totally agree, right now, as I say, we don't actually have radiators in anything but the bedrooms. We've opted for IR panels configured in the most efficient setup. Quite frankly, the only comparison we have is to wood, which during a winter period, we'd spend £150 for just 6 weeks and that's only 4 hours of heating in the evening, so for us, if we can get that under that - we're happy.
@@ryanholton961 I would be very surprised if you can heat your home for 6 weeks of actual winter for less than £150 if done by IR. But please do report back if you proceed and I turn out to be totally wrong! Quick example. 5kW heat loss at your design temperature will require 120kW of heat for a 24 hour period. At current rates that would cost £26.99. A cold snap of 6 days would see you spending £161.93. Now if you were using an air to air heat pump instead, that cost falls from £161.93 to £40.48.
@UpsideDownFork yes I did get into the weeds a bit there didn't I?! Thanks for the reply and I'm glad to hear that the "COP of 4 in summer only" is false, at least in the case of a well installed and handed over system. I have various health issues that make the upheaval of installation difficult for me to contemplate combined with the complexities of running the things that seem to be preferable to be understood. However since I wrote I've discovered that company that gives a whole service guarantee for fifteen years...are they called Aira...Aria, something like that, I have a note of it. I think I'd be happy to have them round to have a chat, so things are moving on at just the right pace for me as I can't afford to do anything until I reach retirement age and my mortgage is paid off around September time. Thanks for indulging me, appreciate your videos and experience.
I think the thrust of Herschel's argument is that a well insualted house (a Passivhaus if you like) barely needs any heating, in which case all the expense and disruption of installing and running an air to water heat pump may not be financially worth it. They are basically saying spend the money on insulation and I'd agree with that but add that you must have MVHR to go with it. If the Salford Uni house has all those measures in place then a ASHP will likely cost more especially because there's no ASHP small enough for a Passivhaus. I keep banging on about mini-split a/c but in a very efficient house that is the answer and negates ALL of Herschel's "disadvantages" of a Heat Pump.
This is all true apart from one thing. Why do Herschel reference 90% of housing stock? Passivhaus standard is not even 1% of houses. Otherwise, I completely agree with your point 👍
I just want to ask you about something I picked up on at 4:20. You said you had microbore pipework with your heat pump. We also have 10mm microbore pipework in our home (3 bed detached) and that is the number 1 barrier for us re heat pump adoption. You you tell me a bit more about your own system and any adaptations made to work with microbore?
Hello, I suggest you have a flick through the heat pump playlist on my channel. This video may briefly show some of what interests you. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-GM2MCaYyaHE.html Basically it is all about flow rate and meeting the heat loss. We have 10mm copper drops which means about the last 2.5M of pipe to the rads is 10mm but spurred off 15 or 22mm under the upstairs floor boards. 10mm copper can deliver at least 1kW of heat energy to each radiator. In our case, our largest room that has a single radiator is our 4Mx4M living room which has 2 outside walls. The radiator needed to cover this heat loss is 1400mm wide, 700mm tall and a type 22 deep. 10mm copper is enough to feed this radiator but 10mm plastic probably would not have been. Our installer used a buffer cylinder to make sure the floor rates were correct but from some simple calculations we do not need a buffer tank. They design a buffer tank on every single system though, just to be on the safe side. In summary, microbore pipework isn't a barrier to heat pumps at all. In most cases, once calculations have been done, upgrading pipework from 10 to 15mm will not be needed.
I have an ASHP but work from home in an upstairs office so have installed a 700W infrared panel on the wall behind my office chair. I heat the upstairs to 18/19 degrees but I find I get cold sitting at a computer so generally keep the office at 21 degrees. To me it makes a lot of sense to use an infrared heater in this situation and the heat "feels" much nicer than the 1kW oil filled radiator I used to have and it doesn't "dry out" the air either.
I disagree any property that has a heat loss greater than 18kwh on heat loss calculations are just not sustainable for heat pumps period, further more these properties will need anywhere between 8-24k of heat insulation added to walls internally or externally (not always possible in grade listed) it’s not just as simple as adding more loft insulation, additional windows and radiators will need upgrading to at least k2+ , and modern double/tripple glazing. I know, as I had 30k worth of work done to an old farm house from diesel to heat pump, it just doesn’t work at best I hot a 2.1 kwh cop , it now uses a 40kwh condensatiing boiler by Bosch . Two years I struggle with the heat pump. Before the power loss dec 2023 (ny state) it got just 14c , it all depends on the property, the annex separated by a tripple glass morning room , was insulate to a heat loss of just 7kwh , this had air to air installed with modern insulation to r35 , (and solar 16kwh with off grid backup ) once dust off provided all the heat the building needed at 21c . There are far more properties right up to 1990 just not suitable for a heat pump at best I estimate just 40% of U.K. household could be converted. As for ir heating , I aka them to putting a frog in a pot and bringing up the temperature cooking them slowly , side on pannels just don’t work, the take up to an hour to heat the surrounding material so it warms the area . They were designed to keep outdoor seating areas warm , my experience in a 11 by 20 room need at least two even 3 1.2kwh pannels, it’s not worth going for high pannels as they font scale like conventional blowers , in empty rooms it doesn’t work well at all , the more clutter eg a mattress, a sofa a rugs/carpets then fine you do feel the difference but the energy draw to get there is about half the usage of a conventional blower not a well insulated and spec heat pump . This is why I say hydrogen mix is essential it. Can’t be just electric .
@@UpsideDownFork my U.K. Nan lives in a property built 1990, I just had the surveyor come around to do a full heat calculation, it has 3 bedrooms, walls and roof installed, yet heat loss calculation said 16 kwh I stopped her from signing and upgraded her boiler instead by there own calculation (I insisted they calculate for -6 not minus -3 due to frequent yearly low points to to open fields behind lowering anual temps ) it would have had a cop of just 2.8. And tried the hard sale on her being 94, (the total by the way was 11k for all radiators pipe work to 20mm from mivcrobore and heat pump 11kwh valliant ) and yes it was the boys in blue. I had a modern system boiler just 18kwh installed by valliant down from her old 35kwh , with a setback of 16 (so she could sleep) and modern controls, with the new 10% is 580 pounds gdb , and loves it , my calculations show if Electric yo the same level as last year now that the winter payment has been scrapped the heat pump would have cost 500 pounds more for the year . She can’t be the only one being told the wrong thing to get the grants and a better sized boiler works even better to there needs
@@ram64man There is no way on earth that a 1990 built 3 bed has a 16kW heat loss. Average size of a 3 bed in the UK is 88m2. Average heat loss for a 1990's house is 50W/m2. That means the average heat loss for a 3 bed home in the UK is 4.4kW
@@UpsideDownFork remember it’s based on -6 not -3 setup and the head loss is accurate,I was surprised as well the building is 120m2 3 full sized double with high ceiling. Original windows 1990 double glazed, and oversized garden room 14-10, it was a custom built house due to illness of late grandfather,
Everything electric has done several videos on infrared heating including one in a church. I was curious about the technology. I agree I think heat pumps are the way forward for Your main heating system. I like watching the Heatgeek channel. They have some great information. I think infrared heating should be used as a supplement heating and not a replacement for the main Heating system.
@@garysmith5025 difficult to describe but pockets of heat that rise. You see this effect when painting a ceiling.its warmer on the step ladder than sitting in an armchair
@@bernardcharlesworth9860 That's convection. You get it from IR heaters as well, the installation instructions for Herschel say not to install wall mounted panels with the plug/socket above the panel to avoid overheating the plug. It's maybe not as bad as convection from a radiator because on the lower surface area.
I guess it will depend on who you are and how you live your life. If like my brother you live in a small 1 bed where you get up 15min before you go to work and are out the house for 12 hours a day then a heat pump isnt likely to work out financially. So an infrared panel could replace the fan heater he currently uses in the morning and a couple in the living area in the evening, rather than putting the gas central heating on for a few hours in the evening. I suspect in the test why the heat pump didn't do well was that it was set to heat the object vs the panel. So the heat pump was probably set to its maximum output temperature, which in the real world you would never do. The magic of heatpumps is not really the initial heating but maintaining a set temperature. So if you are in a position where you actually "live" in a house then heatpumps are amazing. If it ends up as a place to sleep and eat a quick meal the magic is somewhat lost.
Some good points. In terms of running costs, an A2A heat pump would probably suit him better, but I get why people with very low usage might opt for IR in that scenario.
It strikes me that they are showcasing different tech on the market as even-handedly as possible. Fair dues on that. In this instance, however, and maybe all others going forward, the figures presented for transmission should have been scrutinized more closely. The results are well and truly in on heat pump efficiencies and suitability, and the only disinformation I see is from the FUD mungers and ill informed. Due diligence is called for by Fully Charged, and where figures are in doubt, they should either not have the CEOs in to make their sales pitch or add a caveat broadcast alongside the film. Well done for calling this out.
Thanks. Having spent a fair few years in sales myself, I have a strong sense of smell when i hear sales pitches and marketing rubbish. Forgive the cynic in me, but Robert could have done a 1 minute outro to caveat some of the info that Herschel presented.
I'd pretty much agree. I wouldn't necessarily say they're a con as much as they're not really for constant heating of a space. They're for occasional heating of a space, not steady heating day in day out. You want to heat up a room once a week, great. Every day, not so much. If electricity was 5p/kWh, great.
I agree, disappointed by recent Everything Electric videos. A lack of scrutiny of the products they promote. I recently contacted Octopus about their Cosy heat pump. Their on line quotation system doesn’t include the Cosy, just giving you a random £7,000 installation quote. When contacted Octopus they say it’s not currently available. The channel risks turning into a bland advocate for anything that’s not directly burning fossil fuels, even if they are not available, cost effective or appropriate. Great shame. They need a bit of tough editorial guidance to provide better consumer information. 😢
Yep, total snake oil when it comes to heating a space long term. If you need to find an electric based solution for a small space and have access to an external wall the best place to start is an all-in-one Wall Mounted Air Conditioner/Heat Pump unit. Such devices are not as efficient as full heat pump solutions, but they are also cheaper and easier to install.
I'd rather not give them any more traffic, screen time and exposure because of how the algorithm works, but you can read the same claims on their website. They have a section comparing their panels to heat pumps. www.herschel-infrared.co.uk/infrared-heater-comparisons/heat-pumps-comparison/
That's a shame that so many of us are feeling this way. Robert has done such a great job and the channel has been instrumental in so many people's awareness and journey to a better way.
IR panels need to be used sparsely, exactly the same as direct electrical water heating. Only where nothing else is possible, because all other options ate still better!
Lots of good points there and as you say, disappointing that the Fully Charged interview didn’t challenge the CEO more. I am wondering though if your wife sent you off to sit in the car when you wanted to rant 😂?
I'd rather not give them any more traffic, screen time and exposure because of how the algorithm works, but you can read the same claims on their website. They have a section comparing their panels to heat pumps. 👍
The initial graph on that site seems to be showing the annual running cost for a single year rather than the amortized cost across the product's lifetime, if that's the strategy the cheapest is probably IR heaters bought from questionable sources on eBay or AliExpress! Also that site still cites the £5k BUS grant rather than £7k5 so their stated £2280 saving is actually £220 more expensive.
I have Jigsaw infrared heating panels. I love them. I live in a flat with 4 heating zones and 6 panels of various size. By precisely programming zone times to match my routine my running costs are equivalent to what gas cost me. Panels are run for less time than gas. The speed is fast taking 30-mins to 1hr to raise room temperature from 16 degrees to 21 degrees. So you’re pretty much talking crap compared to my experience as an owner.
@@UpsideDownFork alas that might produce the longest reply ever written, so I can’t go into huge detail. I did a huge amount of research before buying, and I’m getting the results I predicted. My gas CH needed to be on for 2 hours to properly warm up the flat, my panels start putting out heat in 10 minutes and since they are zoned I have some panels on for longer than others to match my routine. Some panels are on for 30 mins and the main one for an hour. My flat is open plan but the bathroom has a door, this means the bathroom heats up very quickly in just a few minutes before I need to use it. 2 hours of gas in the morning and 2 hours in the afternoon before coming home is equivalent to 30mins - 1 hour across 6 panels in the morning and the same in the afternoon. The price of electricity is artificially high and tied to the price of gas, as this decouples over the next decade allowing cheaper electricity production panels will get cheaper to run. Currently my panels cost the same to run as my gas CH, you just need to be good at programming the system to match your routine.
Be better to have heated chairs like some cars do. Warm the human not the world. Or even heated clothing. Fortunately the UK is rarely that cold to want that much heating anyway, especially of recent years. Heat pumps sound like junk, expensive junk and based on very well insulated new houses, unrealistically for existing stock. But based on the bad recent gas created central heating bad attitude heating whole houses. These IR seem a useful option, especially from home solar and battery, 'free' power.
Don't listen to the misinformation surrounding heat pumps. They work very well indeed, in normal houses. More comfortable and more cost effective as well as greatly reducing emissions.
The garage is split into two rooms my workshop ( electronics) is 3 x 3 meters. The panel is a 300 W. I have it on a timer that I can set for 1 or 2 hours as I found I sometimes forgot to switch it off.
As it was a few years ago, this is just an estimation from my memory but the office was approx. 3Mx4M so relatively small. I do remember the panel was almost exactly the same width as the false ceiling tiles but it was about the length of 2.5 tiles. So, this would make the panel 60 x 150cm or thereabouts. Significantly larger than the 200w, 400w & 600w panels I've more recently experimented with. It was enough to keep the office warm but we didn't notice any of the claimed benefits compared to the old electric convector heaters that were in place before it.
I like my mirror panel in the bathroom and the one i have in my hallway when saying hi and bye to people and in the kitchen in which you are busy and walking around. I wouldn't get them as the only heater though... It's an on and off heating system great for small spaces and short moments, but not good for a living room. A great replacement for standard 2000w electric heaters; that can also be energy saving as opposed to gas boiler radiator if you had to keep the room warm all day, if you only use it when necessary for just an hour in a cold small room. For the entire house though, i'd just stay with a gas boiler instead. If you are still running full electric heating and maybe oil/propane the investment in a heatpump will be beneficial. A heatpump will not be beneficial if you now run on natural gas on lower temperatures if you look at the investment thats needed for a shift to a different heat source. People with gas boilers should just lower their boiler temperature to 40-50 celsius if possible instead of investing thousands in a new heat source.
Lots of good points there. The biggest saving by moving to a heat pump is carbon emissions. IR has some use cases but not a whole home system. A well setup heat pump will save some money over a gas boiler in running costs but not much and like you say it depends on the capital investment needed. In our case the boiler was 26 years old as well as the hot water cylinder and just about everything else on the system so the cost to replace it all with a new gas boiler and cylinder etc was actually significantly more than to replace it with a heat pump and it's associated system. This was down to the zero rated VAT and the government grant.
I have both an ASHP and a Herschel IR panel. The ASHP does all the "heavy lifting" for heating and hot water. The IR panel is a 500w heater/towel rail in the bathroom. Heat pumps are very good at heating large spaces for Long times at constant temperature. The IR panel is only used for a short period of time in the morning when we are having showers etc.. It's very good at producing higher temps very quickly for a short period of time, which is exactly what we want in the bathroom in the morning and which the heat pump is not designed to do. It's not that the Herschel panel is a poor product, to the contrary it suits it's use case very well, it's just a pity the company don't just own up to that, market it for specific niche use cases, and stop trying to market is as a universal solution to low carbon space heating. Its more than a pity, it' is in fact an absolute disgrace, that the make these absurd, scurrilous attacks on heat pumps, it shows very bad faith on their part in terms of the push to decarbonize our energy use. I'm sure Fully charged/Everything Electric mean well but they are very naive in how they assess and report on companies in the "decarbonization" space. They desperately want to help these companies to advance the cause of decarbonization, and this leads them to have a blind spot when it comes to occasions when these companies behave badly. For example, they continued to support the old Electric Highway long after they had proved themselves not capable of expanding the EV charging network on motorway service stations at the rate that was required but blocked anyone else from doing so with the exclusive contracts with service stations.
Agree totally IR panels, or bar heaters are nothing special! At the right price they are great for intermittent heat for people in a cold space . EG 1 hour service in a church . At £50 mark useful for some applications . But at £x00 too expensive . Fully Charged needs to be more like Transport Evolved , fact based rather than enthusiasm based. PS, This vid you're parked is better video , the other driving slightly you are distracted by the driving noticable to the viewer. ( & do check the size of your camera & position in the windscreen area of your car ,may not be lawful for driving)
Thanks. I totally agree about those other use cases. For once this was a second take video as I didn't realise that during the first take and driving, the coat i'm wearing was rustling against the seatbelt making a horrendous sound through the microphone. I don't really have the time for making youtube content so i'm trying to fit it in my busy schedule and unfortunately, trips in the car are one of the only chances I have to do it. Just a small gopro camera mounted to the rear view mirror in this case.
Heat pumps need to be going constantly to work. I have had them for over 20 years and find them dear to live with. My log burner costs me around $250 for a complete winter and the house is warm. Tell people how much it costs you, there are too many people on here that talk BS
My channel is full of videos showing the full running costs of my heat pump. Here's just one that shows the hundreds of pounds saved compared to a gas boiler. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-GM2MCaYyaHE.html
Regardless of findings, i have lived using log burners, central heating radiators, heat pumps. The best is a log burner by far, I don't like heat pumps for heating a house, i would only use them as a back up, they are expensive to use and you have a dull feeling of being warm on those cold days. So please don't give me your bull shit. Experience is what counts
@@stevehorner8302 I've also lived with all of those and a heat pump is by far the most comfortable. No hot and cold pockets throughout rooms or throughout the house. Consistent, stable temps. The heating system is designed by using science and maths. Glad we can have our opinions and choose what we want to heat our homes. When I present facts and figures as evidence, why do people start swearing to try and dismiss the point?
@@stevehorner8302That's an opinion. By data and metrics, electric cars are suitable for at least 70% of the British population. I feel for those who don't have off street parking and can't benefit from the huge financial savings that driving electric brings.
Absolutely. COP=1.000000 . I have 2 IR panels but not drawn in by erroneous green BS 1 in bathroom for intermittent use as it is pretty instant and one in bedroom for boost while getting changed for bed. The only advantage I can see is that they are safer than standard resistance heaters as they never get so hot to cause a fire or burn your skin when touching them and also provide heat quickly. Heat pumps get most of their energy from the atmosphere (which is heated by the Sun). IR panels get 100% of heat from electricity.
Well said, i have watched the video and the manufacturers vids! Whilst electric is so much more expensive these companies are on the back foot!lobby Gov to stop pricking electric off gas and the game changes for these companies!
No comparison. Infra can't compete at 100% vs 400-500% after a2a or a2w never mind for those intermediate transition warm days when cop goes right up. My Tesla has heat pump heating over the earlier resistive heating ones. A big Contributor in range extension on cold days..resistive offering similar costs to infra. The science just doesn't stack up when comparing. Infra On its own as an Occasional directional heating in a small room. Maybe Yes. As a whole house method of heating. No.
We converted part of our garage to a utility room and I installed an IR panel to heat it. It works very well and have it on a smart timer to take advantage of our time of use tariff. However, it is sooo expensive to run when compared to our old gas CH and our new 5kw ASHP. I agree, they should NEVER be used as a primary heat source. They should be promoted for use in specific, special cases; not as a heating system for a house. A well designed ASHP system wins HANDS-DOWN.
the trouble with everything electric show is that they are never subjective and they don't want to upset anyone so it make there reviews worthless and I have stop watching them as I feel like there just chasing money they feel like an advertising platform.
Yes, it was a video full of pure BS. We need these things called out. To be fair to Robert it is very hard to challenge someone that is spouting rubbish to your face.
A lot of channels out there that hurt the industry by leaving out the obvious data needed to prove their point. That's why I like this channel even though I only care about the cheapest preferably most self reliant energy system. With Britain and the US constantly starting wars I am not concerned about the weather.
Yes, apologies for mixing the wavelengths. I was going to use it as an example of the directional nature but quickly realised I should back away from that comparison 👍
AC (A2A heat pumps) are an excellent option for many properties. It's a low carbon technology that can be easily retrofitted with minimal disruption in many cases. Capital cost is lower than A2W heat pumps. It just leaves hot water production to worry about, although several options are now available on the market that can do space heating and hot water production as well as separate heat pump cylinders too. I would welcome the BUS grant to be opened up to A2A heat pumps at a reduced rate to reflect the lower capital cost. Perhaps £2500? Personally, I think A2W is still the gold standard when it comes to home heating but all heat pump technology is ok in my book!
I wandered onto the Herschel stand at an exhibition in Glasgow last year and the salesperson started giving all the usual spiel about them only heating you and not the air, there are no convection current to cause draughts, etc, etc. Personally I don't like the feeling of radiant heat but I also I pointed out two simple facts, they're ultimately controlled by a room thermostat that measures air temperature, the installation instructions say wall mounted panels must not have the plug socket above them to avoid it overheating. They can't avoid the second law of thermodynamics, all systems want to reach equilibrium so if IR heats an object, that object will pass heat to the cool air around it. I've no doubt they have a use in situations were use of a space is sporadic and a fast response is required, but not for whole house unless it's very well insulated and you only require heat a few days per year
