Inside Tabletop - Will KILL TEAM (2024) get Games Workshop into more stores?

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Welcome back to Inside Tabletop. In this series I talk to people that live and work in Gaming, getting them to share their insights on the business of game entertainment.
My lonely solo Inside Tabletop run is over for the next month as I'm rejoined by Chris from Lords of War to talk about more current-events news in the world of Tabletop. With the Pre-Orders going live for KILL TEAM this weekned, I'm talking with Chris from Lords of War about whether or not small-scale 40k will get Games Workshop into new and different kinds of stores. Let's dive in!
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Опубликовано:

29 сен 2024

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Комментарии : 116

@saltfreegamer 7 дней назад

You're absolutely right about the value of non-purchasing players to the game ecosystem. This is well known in other industries. Supercell (who makes way more money than GW) offers their full gameplay experience for *free*, knowing that a large pool of opponents makes their games more valuable to the paying players. GW could do to be a good deal more generous with their offerings (e.g. put a second laspistol on the aquilon sprue!) to justify their premium pricing.

@davidkimball5222 6 дней назад

Kill Team now is what 1st ed. Necromunda was for me back in the day, though with that the ops campaigns were great where you could upskill your guys or gals. That build element is key it seems to me, particularly for kids coming from Fortnite or whatever. £50 teams with cards extra are a problem though 😢

@kennethphillips6006 6 дней назад

Good video. I’ll be more interested when they get a starter box for this edition.

@donjardine8734 4 дня назад

I used to be a monarchist but the only thing that would worry me about having a republic is the thought of Boris Johnson as president. Media reform first! Look after yourself, you are important to us.

@ogremark5 7 дней назад

Warcry was the "new" game system before KillTeam 2021. And KT adopted a lot of Warcry but went a little too far.

@RAINBOWBEARMAN 6 дней назад

No. Too complicated and too expensive. When scouts and mandrakes cost 95 cdn per team. It’s just too costly for some mainstream thing. They’ll buy space marine 2 which costs less. Spear head is the better game rules wise and value wise for people to get into. Just a question of if fantasy will sell them or not

@03dashk64 7 дней назад

Man I hope not.

@HandofBlake 7 дней назад

I am that guy. I just buy the core box and paint the teams plus some extra teams. People come over and play. I get my fix, everyone is happy.

@GuerrillaMiniatureGames 7 дней назад

You’re a treasure then; every gaming group needs their DM/Motivator/Person of Action.

@Chuck9852 6 дней назад

You sound like someone defending Concord on steam reviews. *20 active players* "well im having fun, who cares what anyone else thinks?"

@HandofBlake 6 дней назад

@@Chuck9852 I have no idea what that means.

@JB-tc8el 4 дня назад

@@Chuck9852 and you sound bitter 😂

@Deus888 7 дней назад

Not with these prices

@kevinb871 7 дней назад

Agreed! One of the better rule sets GW makes and they just priced out a huge potion of the market with it.

@kevinb871 7 дней назад

I will caveat that with saying it doesn’t look that bad until you look at the original starter box stuff cost. I do love the game and what they have done with the rule book.

@Havok448 7 дней назад

Prices seem to be working for my group. We’ve talked about getting into KT to have quicker games and bring in some folks (who don’t want to go full 40K) and it seems everyone is pulling the trigger on this version.

@kommisar85 7 дней назад

They’re embarrassing at this point. Walking into a lego store feels like a value now 😂

@captaincosmo6157 7 дней назад

I have too push back against this. Taking inflation into account, kill team has been the same price since 2018. The issue is that when governments inflated the money supply, the companies you worked for didn't adjust your wages for it. Games workshop isn't more expensive. You're poorer.

@willnox1 7 дней назад

These Sunday Inside Tabletops are such a great way to relax and drink a cup of coffee. Thanks Ash!

@HandofBlake 7 дней назад

Multi-player vs the game is always a win for getting my friends to just play something.

@GuerrillaMiniatureGames 7 дней назад

It takes all the adversarial stuff and directs it in a way that’s way more satisfying if you’re not playing with a full comprehension of the rules

@oldestmate5836 6 дней назад

So I'm a TTRPG guy first and foremost. The whole D&D group with a few people who buy all the stuff is literally describing my situation. I buy the big boxes, paint the terrain, etc and then my friends buy their one box and come over and build/paint then play. We run everything from Frostgrave to Mordheim to KT21.

@benpuffer7891 7 дней назад

GW? In this economy?!

@cjlewis367 7 дней назад

I’m so happy they added official rules for Co-Op. I’m making kill team Justian out of Space Marine Adventures: Tyranid Attack and the Space Marine 2 board game to recreate the Space Marine 2 characters for my friends to play against nids (not to mention my darktide teams). So now I’m getting another 4-5 people into the hobby. It’s such a small thing, but it has a huge impact on my hobby

@dominicmetzger3246 7 дней назад

I sold out of new kill team in a few days. Sold way better than skaventide

@RAINBOWBEARMAN 6 дней назад

How many boxes by comparison?

@tempusavatar 7 дней назад

Thanks for the video. Re: co-op missions: what I'd like to see is a "Saving Private Ryan" mission where the AI gets a tank/dreadnaught/carnifex with support infantry but the goal isn't to KO the tank but achieve something else.

@timunderbakke8756 7 дней назад

Man, I’d love to see something like this.

@BrettBallanger 6 дней назад

It seems like there's an opportunity for a Space Marine 2 and Kill Team box. Especially, given the PvE co-op modes.

@uriance88 6 дней назад

The discussion around GW selling 'battlesets' for Warhammer+ shows is also a lost opportunity for GW to market Warhammer+ to new people (which means they'll figure it out years from now when the zeitgeist has passed)

@asuranshadow9491 7 дней назад

Would love to see the coop side expand to meet the interests of all the coop boardgamers out there. There's so much coop trashware on kickstarter, but coop mode in 40k seems like such a no brainer

@GuyRiessen 5 дней назад

Ha! You nailed what made me leave Warhammer 20 years ago. Spent a month to paint a gorgeous set of Chaos Knights...first time getting them to the table and insane dice luck simply took them off the board. No saves no nothing, just removed. I never got to move them, or even make a single die roll with them...not to mention they were the focal unit of the army. IIRC it was an Empire cannon of some sort that if you rolled all sixes, you then rolled again and if you rolled all sixes again, the entire opposing unit was just removed from the gameboard...and to be fair I think there was a much higher chance the cannon was going to explode and take out a bunch of Empire models.

@Chuck9852 6 дней назад

Im a practing CPA of 15 years. I didnt manage a gw store like ash so im no expert on the economy, but im pretty sure my econ professor rolls over in her grave everytime he says "late stage capitalism." She also never managed a GW store, so what did she know?

@Grimmlocked 7 дней назад

This podcast went from randomly showing up in my feed to getting me back into a hobby space I abandoned a decade ago. Now I watch every Sunday. Thank you for this show

@GuerrillaMiniatureGames 7 дней назад

I’m so glad! That’s really rewarding to hear!

@BjornKuma 7 дней назад

I certainly wouldn't base my store around GW products, just because the prices will turn most away after their initial purchases and then getting their head around the new live service business model GW are now using in earnest.

@captaincosmo6157 7 дней назад

About the price. Speaking from a UK perspective. If i punch the prices of the last few editions into an inflation calculator, the kill team is about the same price as 2018, 2021, and 2024. If i go back to 2001, the current price of kill team would be £75. The issue isn't that gw is more expensive. Everytime governments print money, the value of all goods in a system change to match the new value of the money. Now put your wages into an inflation calculator. GW is no more expensive then it's ever been. You're just poorer.

@davidwasilewski 7 дней назад

Maybe they’d take bitcoin or gold? 😂🤣

@captaincosmo6157 7 дней назад

@@davidwasilewski might be a safer bet than trying to pay in interpretive dance.

@davidwasilewski 7 дней назад

@@captaincosmo6157 😂🤣

@richardpearce4988 7 дней назад

Maybe...I was a teen in the 90s in the UK, and remember a lead blister pack of 5 being £2.50, and Skeleton Horde (Sprues for 30 plastic models and loads of spares for kit-bashing) at £5. With a few birthdays and Christmas supplementing my pocket money, I had a Blood Bowl Team, Man o'war fleet, 40k Space Marines, WFB Dwarfs AND a Titan army. I hadn't looked at the GW site until last year, and I see single plastic models for £25...GW are definitely more expensive even proportionally. I have a grown-up white-collar job these days and personally couldn't justify the spend at all.

@davidwasilewski 7 дней назад

@@richardpearce4988 I remember buying ral partha and early citadel lead skeletons for 30p. The AD&D Monster Manual, and the other hard backs were less than a tenner!

@flak1939 7 дней назад

I so desperately want a small scale 40k experience that properly supports coop and narrative campaigns. I realize GW will never make 'DnD campaigns but with space marine tactical squads in a rhino' as an official product, but they have come so close to at least approaching this huge hole in their product offering it's really irritating. The fact that they introduced coop as a concept in KT24 but seem to have completely lost sight of the fact that it's a huge opportunity is basically classic GW. It's too bad, because I have loved the setting since the RT days, but only loved the game for a few years every once in a while during that time. Every time my friends and I start trying to get game night back together, it always ends up back at DnD because the 40k equivalent simply doesn't exist where you can get 4-6 people around a table and play a game for a few hours.

@Ingward87 7 дней назад

Try playing Warhammer Wrath & Glory rpg.

@flak1939 7 дней назад

@@Ingward87 We've looked at the various GW IP RPGs, but it's more that we want a 40k minis game to play in game sessions, than DnD with a 40k skinsuit. Especially since we already have a bunch of DnD stuff, if we're going to play that style of game we just do DnD instead.

@lorcannagle 6 дней назад

@@flak1939 So something more like Space Crusade?

@flak1939 6 дней назад

@@lorcannagle I think the closest right now is something like Necromunda, just instead of the PvP only focus, orient it towards pve and pvp, and make it 'real' 40k vs. hive city side thing. Aesthetically, the Astartes animation is something like an RPG dungeon but in 40k.

@kierdalemodels 5 дней назад

It sounds interesting. Did the new KT get rid of those shape-based measurements? I’ve been out of GW gaming for a few years and remember hearing about that.

@GuerrillaMiniatureGames 5 дней назад

It did. All inches

@5p3cu10 7 дней назад

Uhhhh more cards. Cards are totally fine provided the company bolting them on keeps them in stock. If they make multiple packs and I can't get the first ones years down the line... It's pointless. All these card ideas and constantly cycling definitely feeds my theory that wargames are becoming spiritually; TCGs

@Mikey__R 7 дней назад

I dislike cards, they're just something else to lose. The first multiplayer 40k Apocalypse game I played, I handed out the cards, only got some of them back.

@5p3cu10 7 дней назад

@@Mikey__R cards are fine when they are JUST a premium product. Like mission cards are fine, as long as they are in the core rulebook. The second they become a separate item... That's when the nonsense starts

@earnestwanderer2471 7 дней назад

It’s going to depend a lot on what the 2024 starter set looks like and costs (as opposed to this launch box). My other thought is... can a store sell minis without getting into paint and other accessories?

@RAINBOWBEARMAN 6 дней назад

Isn’t it odd a starter set comes after the launch of an edition?

@willnox1 7 дней назад

Nice Reference to Shadow War Armageddon being Edition Zero. Still love playing it from Time to time ESPECIALLY with added fan rules to make it Mordheim in space!

@alescervinka7501 7 дней назад

What I am missing is crazier units like vespids. So far, most boxes were just just different kinds of guys in the suits.

@danfocke 7 дней назад

Is aggressively moderate your version of matched casual play?

@GuerrillaMiniatureGames 7 дней назад

💯

@goreshadetube 7 дней назад

I think GW is in a good spot with Kill Team and Spearhead as viable smaller scale games. Players can legitimately only play those games or move into one of the larger games if they want.

@parsath_2584 7 дней назад

Tbh I'm kinda done with 40K, Kill team has better rules and my friends who aren't super into Warhammer have expressed interest in trying it since it's a one box game. Spearhead is also great for this (although I wish Warcry was close to a one box game too.)

@goreshadetube 6 дней назад

@@parsath_2584 I’ve been around since Rogue Trader. 40k has always been their weakest rule set through every edition. It’s still got a great IP and cool models.

@Kallistosprom 7 дней назад

If GW becomes like EDH then I’m done, I would walk away so fast.

@RAINBOWBEARMAN 6 дней назад

How do you mean?

@TrippyTheShroom 7 дней назад

So many friends I've tried to get into 40k have tapped out before even starting *purely* because they didn't want to "compete" against me, them knowing I've played/been in the hobby for a decade+. A co-op campaign mode for both 40k (full armies, easy to learn rules) and Killteam would probably convince 3-4 people I personally know to jump in. They already read the books, just hesitant to get into the game because they simply aren't "competitive" people.

@marccaron6008 5 дней назад

eh? GW has had RPGs since pretty much the beginning, and they have coop board games. They've tapped in every segment, even card games.

@patpaints9813 6 дней назад

How dare you be so aggressively reasonable! I have nothing to rage about now. I see Kill Team and Spearhead as GW living up to the Seinfeld joke "what we really want to see from car companies... New from Chrysler! A space!" These games offer time - I can still get my hobby/gaming fix, without spending a huge amount of time that I just don't have.

@redsands1001 7 дней назад

Some people like pathfinder for tactical crunchiness so there's surely people who would like a co op warhammer 40k ruleset.

@marccaron6008 5 дней назад

"We can hate each other and still play!" LOL

@bernhardeisl7382 7 дней назад

None of my friends have their own miniatures, but because I am painting a lot and trying all kinds of different games and run campaigns I ususally paint up forces for at least 2 players. Its a win win situation... The only one loosing is my bank account :p

@redouroboros8923 5 дней назад

Too expensive for the new player really

@misomiso8228 7 дней назад

So I have a question: When you compare Kill Team and Spearhead, which do you think is more INTERESTING to play? Which has the best gameplay experience and why? Also, how do these games compare to the best other skirmish games on the market? Ie Infinity and Rangers of Shadowdeep?

@jinofthesheep 7 дней назад

Kill team has more depth than spearhead, but spearhead is still great. In terms of how does it compare to other games in the market, I think the biggest driver is size of player base - a good game that has no players isn’t great - and KTs is growing

@RAINBOWBEARMAN 6 дней назад

Spear head is way more enjoyable in my opinion. Easier to learn and play and has a little variety in that you dont just have a single unit of guys. Or individuals

@teresaweigel3611 7 дней назад

I really like this 💎

@itsallfunandgames723 7 дней назад

For the people who read the novels and/or watch lore videos on RU-vid, Kill Team isn't going to move the needle unless they already really want to get into the miniature hobby, in which case anything will move the needle. Hearing Ash mention those people, I got to immediately thinking, it would be easy to design a series of $50 Barnes & Noble games that would get people who are nibbling around the edges into playing. Around 15 miniatures, some cheap cardboard room tiles like HeroQuest expansions have, it's 5 Space Marines from whatever chapter vs. 10 bad guys, every character gets cards like it's Imperial Assault or 7TV. It's a full little skirmish game with push-fit models, each one features a different chapter and a different enemy. I don't know if GW would sign off on a plan like that or believe they'd make more money with it, but you could print those to the moon and they'd sell out.

@GuerrillaMiniatureGames 7 дней назад

I think it will move the needle for SOME of those people… especially those that transitioned from playing earlier editions of Warhammer out to just the universe as the game grew, cost and model counts went up. As for the B&N games… I think they’ve yet to find the sweet spot for those but what you describe is a great point for them to shoot for!

@EvilBearWargames 7 дней назад

im suprised they didnt go coloured plastics for kill team

@FluteGnome 7 дней назад

My local sold 3, not even making old world numbers with this launch. 🤷

@jinofthesheep 7 дней назад

Really interesting discussion, I appreciate the different perspectives on why kill team is a great option.

@liamfishwick2943 7 дней назад

I honestly thought Warcry would have been a bigger game compared to Killteam. Maybe the "almost needed" terrain stopped it.

@andrewcook3983 7 дней назад

Always enjoy when Chris turns up on your channel, and the one-time you guest appear on his and Jay's channel. Ash, any chance you could do a video on coop game opponents for Kill Team please? I really liked how you put together that Nurgle themed force for you game with Chris and I would like to see more along those lines, especially for different factions when, say one has two players, each one with a full team. if a joint ops game involves two or more full teams, does the Core Book advice more than one board is used?

@PrimeAdvance 7 дней назад

Not unless they lower the pric-*BLAM* *Taken out by a GW Lawyer with a sniper rifle*

@iampetewyse 5 дней назад

So I've been "out" of the GW machine for a long LONG time. Used to work for them, 20 odd years back (shoutout Southampton store), and was there for the launch of The Lord of the Rings strategy battle game. I played a lot of WHQ, Mordheim, Inquisitor, and obv the core 3. I fell out with GW when they raised the prices so high etc. and never looked back. The last GW product I bought was Underworlds (first set) and WHQ Silver Tower. I am a HUGE Tolkien fan, and if they released a solo/coop mode... updated Battle Companies to be less janky, and chucked solo/coop as a key feature, I would be back in. I would jump back on board so fast.

@atragonx7939 6 дней назад

So are we adding "aggressively moderate" to the growing list of other monikers? That's one full shirt.

@Dr_Disintegrator 6 дней назад

KT is just so expensive for what it is. How can it function as a way to introduce players if they are just floored by the prices?

@mikegrant8031 7 дней назад

Hivestorm got it sale period extended. That tells me there is weak demand.

@chrisslye8125 7 дней назад

No it didn't. Every release has a two week pre-order now.

@mikegrant8031 7 дней назад

@chrisslye8125 the stockist order period is Sunday till Tuesday at 530.pm. it is a two week lead time. That is not the same thing as the order window.