Intel Bricked Your Interface 

This is why I stick with RME. They genuinely seem to care about making equipment that lasts.

Never gave a thought about thunderbolt as I gaze at my RME with USB and zero latency 🤷

RME put out a statement detailing why USB 2/3 is sufficient for audio applications, thunderbolt is overkill.

One thing I will always remember Barry by is his cornbread English

RME & USB ... a winning combination. Won't change from this ever. Been on it for 20 years (or more).

And the dead 1394 FireWire is still working fine even on Windows 11...

Barry, I will say that Intel dropped the ball for backwards compatibility for Thunderbolt4, but like with all "superior" mediums, it's not heavily used because Thunderbolt requires certification which requires licensing with cost manufacturers. So like Firewire of the past, we were told that USB is just good enough, even though for audio, firewire was the much best medium. I've said this in a few comments and I will say it here, it will be interesting to see how manufacturers spin USB4, seeing that Thunderbolt3 is the foundation of USB4. Everybody that is using USB4 is basically using Thunderbolt3. As always, great video!!!

Assembled my computer a few years ago without an inkling about Thunderbolt. Thank God. Only heard about it when I saw some audio interfaces running on thunderbolt.

Sorry I think this video should be remade or there should be a follow up clarifying what it's saying. Intel did NOT recently kill Thunderbolt compatibility. Thunderbolt 4 on Windows has never been compatible with TB1 or TB2 since its release in 2020. David at MixBusTV ran into TB4 > TB2 compatibility because he is building a new PC and was unaware of the TB4 > TB1/TB2 compatibility issue. Nothing new here from the Intel side. Thunderbolt 4 continues to be backwards compatible with Thunderbolt 3 on Windows with no plans to change that as far as I know.

Thunderbolt is overkill for anything audio but can have some advantages in terms of data write speeds/high bandwidth devices (like with video). Thankfully in audio, you don't need those speeds. My Mac runs my USB-C MOTU M2 and an USB-C external ssd with no hiccups! Audio only needs USB 2.0 speeds which has been around for 15+ years.

Thanks for the video, Barry. FYI to all: Mac's actually have multiple TB Controllers. As long as that's true, TB2 and 3 will keep working on Macs. PC Peeps: USB 4, in some cases has TB3 compatibility. Your MOBO may have USB 4.

I feel like this is based off David's MixBusTV video. It's important to note Thunderbolt 4 on Windows has only ever been backwards compatible with Thunderbolt 3, but not Thunderbolt 1 and 2. This is NOT new information and has been true since the release of TB4 for Windows. David is building a new PC and just discovered this issue. If you look at Intel's site, they still document TB4 is backwards compatible with TB3. David's issue was backwards compatibility with TB4 > TB2 only, which has never been supported on Windows.

This has been an issue since last year, Barry. I had 3 weeks of back and forth with Asus last year explaining to them that my Quantum was still being sold at that time and that TB2 wasn't outdated yet so they issued me with a rollback for the firmware. Seemingly I was the only one they issued it to at that time because I had to share it with multiple people over Google Drive. If you update your BIOS now though, you have to also use the rollback afterward which is available as a seperate download from their site

I am glad I went with Apogee . The Duet 3 and Desktop Symphony all usb c. I almost got a thunderbolt interface.

Great video thanks Barry, was looking at some laptops with Thunderbolt 4 ports and may now re-think. I heard similar things with AMD boards around Intel not 'playing ball' with allowing a more widespread use of TB on AMD boards, I know AMD can offer TB, but I've heard there are still challenges with compatibility.

So for PC peeps, does it make sense to look at buying a Thunderbolt 2 PCIe card (while you can still get them) and just throw that in your next build? This worked for me when manufacturers moved away from Firewire.

My RME UFX+ interface is working fine for now. It's got a thunderbolt 2 port which I connect to my thunderbolt 4 M1 Mac Studio via a thunderbolt 2 cable with a Thunderbolt 3/4 adaptor. I run a optical MADI cable from the UFX+ to my other 16 channel interface which is a SPL Madison. As long as RME continue to update the Thunderbolt drivers, it should be right for years to come.

I'm a pc user who uses the x series of apollos all tb3 and very stable but I also use tons of dante. I wish UAD would go dante and I'd just abandon usb and thunderbolt completely. Kinda just super stable and fast

I built a Thunderbolt 4 unit and purchased a Thunderbolt 4 gaming PC last year. Thank God

Let’s go back to tape.

Hi Barry. Can you please add links to the documentation you are reacting to from Intel ? kind regards Nils

There's a couple of issues at play. From what I understand, if you are running a TB3 interface, it should still work with TB4 and USB4 chipsets, but you would be out of luck with TB1 or TB2, even with a TB1/2 to TB3 adapter. On the Intel side, there has been a firmware update that has disabled all TB1/2 compatibility. When using a TB4 chipset from Intel or one of the TB compatible/certified chips like those from ASMedia, they leverage the Windows USB4 driver which also does not support TB1/2. For example, the AMD-based systems with USB4 chipsets that support Thunderbolt will not work with TB1 and TB2 because the Windows USB4 driver does not support them.

Is it possible to use a pcie tb card that's backwards compatible? As you can do with a firewire card on a new pc win 11.

I believe I understand the issue. See Apple no longer needs intel CPU's because they make their own (M-series). If I understand it correctly Apple is the one that invented and uses thunderbolt the most. I rarely see thunderbolt on a windows machine (they most likely use a daughter card to use it). So why would intel care if they do not support thunder bolt 3 and below. Apple no longer goes to them for intel CPU chips. Makes sense to me. The issue is Apple is a closed operating system. This is one reason I find it hard for me to go to Apple. People say oh Windows this and that. Apple has issues to. They both are hard to deal with.

Certainly a concern, but certain manufacturers have modular IO So for example, if this goes through, UA Apollo could come out with a thunderbolt 4 IO card

Still running strong with my RME Fireface 800.

Just completed my studio PC upgrade last weekend - had to budget £16.99 for a new firewire card to plug in my RME Fireface.

Is Apple M series computers Thunderbolt and/or USB?

You either get USB or go the AVB switch (which is just an ethernet cable) route

Wow Barry, I have Universal Audio Apollo x6 16x22 Thunderbolt 3 Audio Interface with UAD DSP, macbook pro m1 macOS Monterey ver 12.6.1 cubase 13 pro is this going to affect me? Thanks Barry.

Did they do a software/firmware change or something?!

David at MixBus TV said the problem was with MSI motherboards and said in his video that ASUS had fixed the issue with their motherboards.

Question Barry; just to be clear USB C with AMD chip set is completely Unaffected by this brick? Thanks as always.

Prism atlas 8 pres no issues with usb.. just pay for a quality interface

I’m sure there will be a Chinese t1,2,3 PCI or T4 card/adapter

Thunder what? I have 2 Babyface Pro’s and an Apogee Duet, but my main interface is still my EMU 1616m with PCIe daughter card in the computer .. like 15 years old now and still sounds as good as my others. Always having to upgrade everything and keep up with updates just kills my creativity. But best of luck to the Thunder guys.

Will stick with my Apogee Element series on TB2 because it has the best conversion, best headphone amp and great mixing variability. You can even print the FX Rack plugins. And latency is better (around 7ms @44.1/128 buffer) than RME (tested the UCXII and UFX+). Will always stay with Apple and Apogee 🙏🏻

Maybe that's why UA have been having such a drive to move existing stock?

Do you like the audio interface in the SSL Big Six in the background?

Thanks for the heads up. I have an old Apollo and have been thinking it's time to start looking for something new. Glad to know this before I purchase anything. I've always used Macs but only time will tell what Apple will do if Intel drops Thunderbolt. I agree that with USB where it stands today Thunderbolt isn't as compelling as it used to be for the average home studio user.

I can’t complain about my Clarett 8-Pre Thunderbolt. I bought it used. It came with all the necessary cables and the original packaging. It was well worth the $250.00 I paid for it.

I’m somehow still using my 828 ii firewire 🤷🏼‍♂️

Hey Barry, just so you’re aware from what I have heard, Apple is planning on dumping it as well as in not even supporting future versions and going strictly to USB. I have heard rumblings that it’s being taken out of their system completely.

The problem is now that USB4 is the same as TB4 now? Correct me if you will

2 solutions. Mac and RME. Apple is more reliable in my experience so far anyway. Also, the AXE I/O from IKMultimedia is a solid beginner interface, haven't used a mic with it yet but there is 0 latency when tracking guitars direct through plugins and it's Made in Italy! Got my UFX III on layaway and This little Axe I/O surprised me. Totally replacing my Fractal. It's that good.

As my momma always told me, don't put all your aggs in one basket. This is another argument for a la carte conversion. I have always invested the most in the part that matters the most. The converters. How they interface with the computer is irrelevant as long as they use some industry standard digital output. Aes, madi, dante, or even adat, you can always find an interface that can link to them. Whether motherboard companies allow a downgrading option or Apple makes a new series of thunderbolt adaptors to adapt to TB4 the sky isn't falling nearly that faat. Thunderbolt really only benefits most interfaces at 96k or above when it comes to track count. In my case, I have a digital only motu interface with thunderbolt, AES, AVB, and Madi and no analog so I have some options. Those include getting a newer motu interface with AVB and TB4, or another an interface from another company with MADI and TB4. I currently have a Burl mothership with MADI for all of my AD conversion and a motu 24ai for my DA conversion. Worst case scenario is having to buy a new device for digital throughput. If I can find a clearance deal on my main interface I'll probably buy a second one since it has loads of digital connectivity options besides thunderbolt and is controlled via a network protocol.

This reminds me of how bad I felt for all the people who bought the slate interface only for it to be almost worthless a couple of years later. Luckily my TB2 interface is about 10 years old, so I’ll be in the market for a new one before I ever need to worry about this, ive gotten my value from it several times over, and it has standalone mode meaning I could just get a converter and use it as preamps if I wanted to.

10:46 this is a good point

Barry do the Big 6 SSL JUST GOT MINE,and The 6 ❤

RME and Prism Audio use USB-C. Glad this is not an issue for me.

I have always used USB interfaces.

Reaper and most VST plugins work just fine on Linux via a background program called Wine (which I never have to touch). I can run the full FabFilter suite and other high-end plugins that I originally bought for Windows on Linux without any issues. Linux Mint is extremely easy to use. It's pretty much the same as Windows or Mac. Most Linux editors I know now-days don't ever need to use (or even know) console commands. It's not like it was 10-15 years ago. And if you're worried about needing Windows, then just set up a dual-boot. Dump Windows and never have to worry about Microscam's bullshit ever again.

Glad I went to RME (usb) and a win computer

NOW I understand why Antelope Audio switched to a unified driver.

If you wanna future proof - get one (or two for redundancy) TB3 addin PCIe cards; stay away from boards with onboard TB chipsets. Even if future mainboards won‘t have the headers for them, the drivers will still work, just without the hotpluging. If you boot the computer up with the old interface already running, you‘re good to go.

Thank God apple has great support for TB.

TB sounded cool when it was first announced as "Light Peak", but it turned out to be a half-baked idea that went through several revisions (read: downgrades) before its commercial launch. It was supposed to be optical, but that was scrapped. It was supposed to be much faster, but that was also scaled back. Now it is essentially Firewire but for the PCI Express era, with all the headaches and proprietary crap that made Firewire so freakin' expensive and troublesome. Only difference is, Firewire was very fast for its time. TB is only marginally faster than USB 3.2/4. TB is needed for external GPU users because that requires PCIe, but audio interfaces - even really fat ones - really don't need anything more than plain old USB. I wish hardware manufacturers would acknowledge this instead of riding the Intel hype train.

Just build an AMD Windows machine with TB4......My 5950 (16 cores/128gb Ram/8TB NVME SSD) with ASUS ProArt Mobo cost 25% of the same spec MAC and outperforms an MAC Ultra/Pro in Cinebench. It's also fully upgradable. I have FULL TB4 compatibility going back to FireWire (using Apple Dongles) and my UAD and Sonnet PCIE housing (for my UAD PCIE cards) work perfectly. I even have a Prism ADA 8-XR with firewire card connected via TB4. Ignore Intel with their eCores. Go AMD and have just Performance Cores......And fully working Thunderbolt with FULL backwards compatibility, .

ThunderBolt has always been overkill for audio

Asus motherboards has a work around.

Why when you said some of us don't know what we're doing you seemed to be looking at me?

Thunderbolt was Created by Apple and Intel and the reason for the separation of protocols is because of compliance with future specs in Intel chipsets! Apple is not affected anymore because they no longer rely on intel cpu's! When Apple does support thunderbolt 4 they Co own the rights and will build it into thier chipsets, but because of their small closed family of silicon it will be easy to implement! Intel had to do this to insure safety overall for everyone on thier chips, they drew a line in the sand! It sucks that it effects so many, but intels runs on soo many platforms and devices just like windows, its the only way to insure saftey moving forward!

**Laughs in 2013 Mac Pro** 😰

I read this as TB4 will support TB3 but not TB1 and TB2, TB3 remains backwards compatible to all, but I could be wrong, ultimately it seems like another corporate cash grab impacting its customers

Hahaa thank you 🙏

Such a stupid thing to do... no interfaces are thunderbolt 4, they are all 3 and down... who decided this?... someone only thinking about thunderbolt hubs?

SO glad firewire sttill workks in Windows 11 and has low latency. MAUDIO 2626 with Actual line ins still working. Phew. Ride or Die!

I haw a presonus 2626 Yes I am pissed. This reminds me of the BS Apple keeps doing like an example ISCSI used it for a couple of years then kilted it. I know USB 4 is coming and most likely USB 5 will be as fast as Thunderbolt. Now I was hesitant to get the Thunderbolt in the first place but I am glad I did since the speed is fast as lighting. Now for Intel to do this is why we need a lawyer with a class action law suit. I mean we can't just keep buying stuff and trashing it it's not good for our environment or our pocketbooks.

I am confused? I thought Thunderbolt was a Apple product. What is he talking about

Not winning the Powerball 3 games in a row??? 😂😂😂😂😂😂

I think Thunderbolt will go the way of Firewire someday.....be replaced with something else. Hmmmm...maybe USB 4.0 or 5.0?

Sounds like I should avoid buying any gear that uses a thunderbolt interface if I don't want end of life within the next 10 years

You can get a thunderbolt 4 pcie card.

As others have said, this is a security vulnerability (Thunderspy) that was identified in 2020. It's not new, so I don't know what you mean by 'Intel are burying their heads in the sand.' The threat exists and allows a hacker with access to your computer to clone your drive. Intel released Thunderbolt 4 in 2020, which dramatically improved security in the protocol (particularly in regards to DMA). Cyberattacks and data breaches are on the rise and technology companies are battening down the hatches (as they should). It seems what you are suggesting is that Intel should ignore security threats in order to benefit a handful of people still using older TB2 devices. Calling it a cash grab is patently ridiculous.

Macs should be fine because the Thunderbolt protocol for computers was invented by Intel in collaboration with Apple.

Love Rme

😂 The writing has been on the wall for the demise of Thunderbolt for years, Barry! I also skipped Firewire. Some stuff is too obvious for outrage. Come back down, friend. We're all OK.

Most of us PC Weenies are not into Thunderbolt so I doubt that this will be as big of a problem for us and Apple is under dictatorship so the flexibility will not exist for the Mac fans.

Thunderbolt is and always has been a design flaw masquerading as a feature, even more so on PC since they still make actual towers with PCIe slots without forcing you into HEDT. I say good riddance. I just hope that either Microsoft gets their **** together or Apple starts making real desktops again before it's time for me to buy another computer. Frankly, I don't actually care which.

Woohooo, intel bricks one interface....They got a long long long long long way to go to catch up to apple. Pretty sure nobody was drinking the Thunderbolt koolaid after maybe 2011 anyhow. Remember the marketing promise of "PCI-e on a wire"? This whole subject was actually covered pretty deeply about three years ago on the DAWBench podcast

They dont give a shit about any of us audio guys

2x⏩

Sold mine and moved on to USB-C

there is always something WAVES just pulled some more bull crap they just updated there studiorack to studioverse and now the new studioverse dose not support DSP offload so people like me that paid $3000 for there ios and other audio interface and servers to off load plugin CPU for your DAW basically it is just a audio interface now that you can buy from other manufactures for $600 or $700 they just pull the rug out every chance they get and they say they are a pro audio company bull

Easy By Apple...

💯🫡💯🫡💯🫡💯🫡💯💯💯💯

Yea, I looked for years to find a laptop with a Thunderbolt 3 port, to use my Apollo remotely! I ended up buying a refurbished 10 year old Laptop to get it to work! The other part of this story is Microsoft! If your system is old enough to run Thunderbolt 3, it is too old to run Windows 11! So, next year when Microsoft drops support for Windows 10 and forces everybody to buy a new computer, everybody should move to Apple! That should destroy both Intel and Microsoft, because of their own Stupidity! I don't particularly like Apple, but screw Intel and Microsoft! 🤑

Then don’t buy Intel.

If you’re using a PC for audio this is what you get. lol.

Not winning the Powerball 3 games in a row??? 😂😂😂😂😂😂