It's too bad we struggle with language, though that's nothing new. When I consider "getting rid" of a part, I really mean just stopping the suffering, like a three-year-old wanting their mother to "go away" when they're not getting what they want. As a person may mature and develop more liminal space from thought to thought or action, language will shift even if it isn't expressed outwardly. Do I really want to get rid of a hungry ghost? No, I just want them to stop driving my life into the ground, and the way to do that is to stop feeding them the nutrients that allow their behavior. Any time an entity gets the right food they generate tremendous change. Kindness is the most delicious and healthful food! Negative actions are, indeed, negative, even if they're rooted in childhood trauma or not getting what we needed. Else they wouldn't be called that. Calling them "bad", getting rid of them, is simply a way to draw attention to the fact that they are not to be left as they are. A lot of people do that these days. "Accept" people's misbehaviors as unchangeable qualities and so don't give any negative feedback.
Hello! Resourceful show. I think its also vital for you to go with the works of Jo Watson (drop the disorder) and Dr. Lucy Johnstone (Power Threat Meaning Framework) since you already tackled a non pathologizing model which is IFS Also anyone who is in the critical psychiatry/psychology field
This was so huge for me. I've been struggling and fighting with these parts for the better part of the year. And as Rick says, what you resist, persists. I believe this will be a huge game changer for me. And on so many levels as I struggle with RA. You guys are changing my life one episode at a time, and I'm so grateful. Over the course of the pandemic, I had essentially shut down and was literally on death's door. You guys helped save me and I have come so very far. Never think that what you're doing is pointless. You're a force for the greater, highest good in the world. Thank you!
New viewer here. Slowly beginning my journey of getting help for my cptsd. This discussion was a gift. Being able to see myself as parts of a whole rather than a batched Jerkyll and Hyde science experiment 😅. Truly, thank you 🙏🏾
I liked the way Dr. Schwartz called a pause on the concept of personification of parts as if you are creating those parts. For me it's like hearing a mass of voices in a darkened room all striving to be heard, some arguing, some crying, some shouting, and it's total confusion. IFS flicks the lightswitch on and allows the parts to be seen and identified and appreciated for who they are so they can be worked with. My only regret is how late I've come to this party
I love your description of the darkened room and how working with parts illuminates the fullness of who we are. I hope it's okay to use your words as a quote in a programme I'm writing?
As a recovering buddhist (I practiced it for two decades) and a recent discoverer of IFS, I enjoyed this interview so much. I've been a longtime fan of Rick Hanson. He's someone who seems to have made the most of his relationship with buddhism. It seems he didnt get caught up in the social drama and trauma of so many western buddhist societies. His questions and thoughts about this are all familiar to me. But mainly, before coming on this interview, I'd been thinking that doing Schwartze's work has taken me to internal places that buddhism talks about, but never instructed ME how to actually get there. (I know others--like Rick Hanson here, have have had better experiences within buddhism). Schwartz is teaching non-duality and kindness more effectively and simply than most teachers of buddhism.
Something I've noticed about people who focus a lot on non-duality (and I say this as someone who recognizes it's importance) is that they get to a point where they just deny that anything exists at all. They mistake the map for the territory and decide that because they _can_ strip away the world of forms and see the whole universe as one lump of meh, that cognitively thinking of it that way 24/7 is useful. They're insufferable to talk to because they refuse to acknowledge that categorizing and dividing things in our heads is a strategy that evolved because it's useful in our moment to moment lives. It's something that I appreciate about Thelema- taking that concept and adding this to it: Know your real core identity before learning to think about the world this way. Instead of striving for nothing, know what you really, truly are striving for, so you don't just become a completely passive person. Now since your will is a natural part of the universe, what's stopping you? Act upon it.
This is the best interview with Richard Schwartz I’ve seen - your insightful perspectives and questions helped bring so much depth into the conversation! Would love a follow up with more discussion by this group!
O, had this all been available 50 years ago! I started studying psychology informally as a teenager, after a trauma-filled childhood, and have been in therapy four times. What you gents have described is exactly what worked for me, not to be "cured", but to be whole. Two comments on content: first, kindness is the main thing. In Dutch and German, the word for child is 'kind'. Second, in recent work with traumatized refugees*, it really helped in addressing the parentification of a struggling eldest sister (whose mom was overwhelmed) to congratulate them that the girl had risen to the task. Then to point out that, if you build a boat as the water rises, and it takes you to a beautiful leafy shore, you need to decide what to do with the boat, unless you want to drag it through the forest. * As an unpaid community mentor (retired human rights lawyer), not a shrink - I am not qualified for that!
10+ years ago I was diagnosed as mpd and everything was pathologized. My parts did their own written therapy…talking to each other, caring for each other. The therapy, with the therapist was more abusive than the original abuse. I had inner therapists who conducted our own healing.
No way! Haven't started the ep yet but so excited you got Dick back on the podcast to sit down with you and Rick. I'm halfway through No Bad Parts at the moment so I'm incredibly excited for this one 💪
I agree with the closing sentence of Dr Schwartz :D. Exactly! Beside the great and informative discussions in all episodes I listened to, it's a special delight to observe the kind relation between Dr Rick and you, Forrest. Thank you so much for your work.
Hi, this is very interesting, thank you! I was wondering, is this kind of what Jung was doing with active imagination? I also read that in ancient polytheistic religions, for example in Greek mythology, the various gods were in a sense the personification of these inner parts. So for example Aphrodite represented sexuality, Ares our aggressive protective part, Hera family and stability, and so on. In this way, everyone could talk and pray to these gods and honor them all, and try to calm them when they got angry or out of balance. Were these ancient religions in a similar way, trying to achieve this kind of therapeutic results? I am also very curious about other polytheistic religions, for example, Hinduism. And then, monoteistic religions went a step further maybe, and grasped at the Self, which is what they call “God”, “Tao”, “Emptyness”, that cannot be described and personified, that doesn’t have any specific attribute.
Listening to this great episode of Being Well- most are great incidently- I was struck by how Richard would stop Rick when Rick used negative terms such as Greed, Sloth etc. I loved how Richard said those terms were dehumanizing in a way. I always thought of the connection between IFS and Buddhism was with the Buddha not dismissing but acknowledging Mara. He invited her in for tea. Did not reject her or make her wrong. She came to him in many different forms, trying to pull him away from his endeavors for enlightenment. Yet he was steadfast in his commitment in Self and did not try to push her away.
Yesterday I sat with my feeling of deep pain in heart, like sadness or grief. I did conscious breathing for couple of hrs, like saying to myself “breathing through” the feeling-while breathing in, “breathing over” the feeling while breathing out. After this process as if I felt more connected to the feeling where feeling started opening up to me. Still, I saw that there is a cocoon over the feeling I asked it to open up the cocoon and tell me what message it has for me And then suddenly sad image of my mother came up. Like in my infantile years, my mother felt lonely depressed and as an infant I absorbed her pain that is still pulsating in me in my psyche as my sad inner child. I talked to that infant and my mother, reassured them, was with them without any judgement and sent lots of love from here in year 2024 to them in year 1977-78. I told them I understand your pain, I am proud of you both and you both are winner as I am proving it as adult self now. I kept engaged to them for around 2 hrs while keeping the breathing-through, breathing-into exercise live again and again. To especially my infant self. I reminded him about how we overcame past hurdles, and how resourceful I am now. Looked like the infant felt relief and smiled, I continued my engagement. Felt little tired, but saw peace within, I felt my feeling is at rest, I did not feel happy more than yesterday since years. Guys IFST is real Feel the feelings and talking to them for reeducating them or reparenting them is real. I was hearing on this since 2019, but was not having that deeper trust in it but slowly when my circumstances pushed me to apply this healing fully, the results were there. Be very intense and compassionate in reaching to these feelings, breathing exercise will help you, and then say to these feelings that it did not hear when it was formed first time......and here you will have the healing.... for me it worked after 30 yrs of puzzle and confusion.... :). By evening that day in years I first time felt my CPTSD inner pain inner sadness is at 0%. And one thing is sure u need a lot of patience, courage and acceptance to the inner pain when you dive in to your feelings. Feelings want you to listen to it, to feel it to get it validated and then to complete with the pressing issue that was there when first time the feeling got created. Your psyche, soul, spirit, nafs is a real entity. May be it is easy for this internal energy form of you to fragment and become many sub-selves, and these sub-selves got stuck in the time. You need to time travel back in time in your meditation having focus on your feeling, talking to them with compassion and then provide their unmet need. Once you do this completion process again and again the feelings come to rest and you get inner peace, joy and happiness, freedom to feel your true self fully and engage in life powerfully. And in all this above process bringing God to your side always helps after even your inner psyche is a created entity, the basic energy form and its creation that only its creator knows very well. Bring this higher power to your side and start your journey
Parts as characters vs defenses, etc. I have 2 thoughts to add. The first is that, in general, people have no problem thinking of ourselves as people. I think of myself as a self, a person, the kind that characters are based on. It’s something that we just know about ourselves, without really needing proof. Understanding that my sense of self is created physically with a brain and neurotransmitters does not change my personal sense of self. I am no less a person. So for me the question that is being asked is not about whether I am a character or not, but whether am I one character or many characters. IFS gave me the ability to see myself as many characters, rather than just the one. This was a huge relief! It enabled me to have a better relationship with myself. The parts of myself I don’t enjoy are just parts of me, and the part that doesn’t enjoy them is also just a part. So now when going through life, I have the ability to connect to more of my whole self, even contradictory parts, or parts that I would normally prefer to suppress or ignore. I don’t have to be afraid of them, or dislike them, the way I might if I had to create a single story of my identity. (How can I be both very intelligent, and an idiot? Different parts of me, and a loud inner critic…) So I’m freer to be real, and to have a better relationship with myself, making me wiser and more at peace. The second thing is that these parts can’t be reduced to a single feeling, a single defense, a single anything. Like people, they are complex, with different sets of significant memories, feelings, goals, needs, fears, defenses, different ways of being in the body.And like the unified me that I perceive myself as, they can grow and change. So in fact, each of these characters is like a simplified reflection of me - what I wish I were, and am sometimes, what I wish I weren’t, and am sometimes - and it doesn’t seem like a big leap to think that I could be made of more than one rather than just one. When all are put together, the complexity of a human makes more sense.
As a soon-to-be therapist and long-time Zen practitioner, I found this episode especially enjoyable. It also reminds me of the "Big Mind" Zen practice of Dennis Merzel, as well as Hal and Sidra Stone's "Voice Dialog" method (Gestalt-ish). I am very interested in studying more about the IFS model of therapy. Thanks for another amazing episode!
Great conversation. I was first introduced to Dr. Schwartz at a talk with Dr. Gabor Maté in Victoria BC approx 13 years ago. I have now acquired a series of his books and find IFS compelling as a stepping stone on the pathway toward resolving global conflict which begins within each and every one of our selves (not sure if upper case S or lower case s is appropriate here!) The notion of exiles is so apropos. Once we accept, heal, and integrate these fragmented parts within our selves this can naturally and organically lead to healing relationships in our outer world and beyond. Think the "butterfly effect." Those ripples outward keep on going, impacting the entire grid. This may sound a little woo-woo but it really isn't! Thank you for sharing this conversation. Many blessings. 🙏🕊🦄
Those are great points!! I was going to ask if anyone is using IFS in organisations or globally! Tara Brach recently interviewed someone doing amazing work bringing Palestinians and Israelis together who hold hatred towards each other as a group. Both heard the other's experience and their joint humanity was brought together. Not IFS but similarities in terms of hearing both the angry,scared and caring, hopeful parts of themselves. From the outside it can appear that people in countries in conflict with each other can forget why they're in conflict. It just seems to breed a life of it's own! Must read some of Dr Schwartz's books!
Wonderful, informative . My best part was hearing words of compassion for all the parts. So when a part is reluctant to emerge l can offer this compassion . This allows me to explore without feeling criticized . I then can thank this part for protecting me and move on to letting go.
Just found your podcast on Spotify a couple days ago and I’ve been listening to as many episodes as I can! It’s really helping me out in my personal life! Big fan!
I have learned to use curiosity where I used to just be in fear. Great big help. And I just want to add how surprised I was to learn that it was internal conflict that was stressing me out, not outer things. And parts is such a great way to think of these things rather than thinking it was me. I thought I was defective and now I see that I have parts that are out of balance.great talk. Thank You.❤
So grateful I ran across this episode today! IFS has helped me through a very difficult last 6 months; turned the last half of 2023 from the worst of times into the best of times as my parts are learning to trust Self. Thanks Rick, Dick and Forrest; you all rock!❤
The genetic predispositions to ailments like asthma, arthritis, and other autoimmune issues represent to me the culmination of unresolved mental and emotional struggles, generationally. While a dusty room or animal can trigger my asthma, it's more interesting to me to look at why the trigger is there to begin with. As a kid I felt really bad about a lot of things but had no safe way to express that. Think espresso machine - that's often an image I use. Eventually, my immune system became confused by having nothing to attack over the suffering, and "made up" a very real issue to release all that energy on. The canvass was primed for the outcome, genetically and generationally, and as I got older, more ailments came and actually did end up on life support once. To me, the worse autoimmune disfunction is, the louder the body is screaming to be heard in connection with the mental landscape but it comes out as a "foreign" language. Tough to decipher and easier to just hammer down the symptoms with drugs and surgeries. And when one is dying why wouldn't you?
What a delightful and thought-provoking conversation! Thank you, Forrest, for the excellent work you do to facilitate and share these discussions. I have a special interest in hoarding disorder, and I'm inspired to do some digging to see whether anyone has published on the use of IFS in that context. If you're ever inspired to cover that topic, I would love to hear more!
Amazing interview! I love love love the integration of the two perspectives! Also Forrest, you nailed it with your incredible depth of perception! Much gratitude to all who were involved in producing this. ❤ 1:22:15
It’s apposite that Richard Schwartz describes his own flowing into a spiritual view of the Self in this video; because I realised as I was listening to him for the nth time today that he’s the closest I have come to looking up to somebody for guidance. His presence is not simply of a therapist; it’s truly quite transcendental and calming in a way that true gurus might have. And of course the hosts are to be credited for eliciting this tone from Richard so effortlessly.
Just watched Inside Out 2. Pretty interesting to hear this insightful discussion as i continue to develop my sense of self. Great information, i have a lot more to learn!
What a fascinating discussion, especially thanks to Rick for coming forward to debate. I really feel a want to join in, as a psychiatrist and with some knowledge of ancient Sanatan Dharma scriptures, which predate even Buddha considerably ☺️🌹🙏
It's interesting that you have Sanatan darma understanding. I'm curious to know your perspective of parts through that lens? Are some parts ego, mind, intelligence etc? 🙏
This interview confirms what I’ve been thinking since I heard about IFS; It’s psychoanalysis in a new narrative. Unfortunately this interview makes it apparent that Dr. Schwartz was never properly trained in psychodynamic therapy. His characterization of it around the mid point of the video makes that clear. If he had discussions with actual psychoanalysts about how communicating with defenses is done with empathy and care he wouldn’t think what he thinks. He even admitted he shied away from transference and countertransference. His theory is his way of dealing with his own uncomfortable feelings around countertransference. Anyway, I still think IFS is great that it works for many but I find too often people denigrate or demonize psychodynamic therapies because they don’t understand it. That’s a reflection of institutions, the history of therapy and psychology and the people too stubborn to see that more than it is a reflection psychodynamics as a form of therapy.
What I think is great about IFS is that it has empathy and compassion built into the model. In contrast to psychoanalysis which, I think, has its bad rep from actual psychoanalysts, who have been working in a passive, slow way, and empathy being more up to the therapist, not built in to the model.
Great point very well made 👍 I agree & can’t help thinking it’s a push back on psychoanalysis as the originator of ALL modern modalities. The tabula rasa idea of the abstinent therapist caused many ruptures to the humanity of the analyst as perceived and/or received non-consciously by both clients in the room and observers or readers of psychoanalytic practice, which played out in the transference which wasn’t empathically “held” & “contained” by many analysts because of fear of collusion by not being abstinent. I think that was unfortunate & caused the misunderstanding of which you write…imho that is! Or am I being a silent assassin..? Or, how would that be expressed in psychoanalytical terms? And maybe that’s part of the problem that you allude to..? The expression of the analyst’s humanity as hampered by the silent thunder of psychoanalytical insistence or maybe Freud’s booming presence? In the words of Whitehead cited in Bateman & Holmes’ “Intro to Psychoanalysis” Routledge - 1995; “a science that hesitates to forget its founders is doomed”p.17.
I relate to the discussion of the insight of connectedness of all living things through use of magic mushrooms. So true. Prior to that experience, I might have called bs on this concept (as someone who has always had a personal aversion to religion broadly).
Wish it could have kept going! I enjoyed this and if I could ask one thing it's about the mind part Dick mentioned at the end! I really could have used more information about that part. I've been doing parts work for a little over a year now.
I scoured the Internet at one point for how Buddhists deal with 'negative' emotions and it left me largely unsatisfied. I think there is a good Thit nhat hanh video where he does go into 'befriending anger'. I do believe other non-traditional buddhists have integrated IFS or have borrowed enough where the urge to 'purify' the soul is not as important as acceptance and integration and has similar conclusions. I have had trips where i met "parts" of myself or entities of the self and i think IFS plus meditation can enhance the therapeutic affect of newer medicine and is highly compatible
What’s so great about Dr Swartz is that he explains things on a simple level because most of us don’t have a Buddhist degree or a counselor degree. Dr Swartz that you for helping me in a very deep kind way! ❤️❤️
Wow! Wow! Omg!!! Like the abused infant who learns it is safest to lay quietly in a crib...watching a sunbeam...or shadows on the wall. Not laziness or lethargy. Definitely a life saving defense.
As far as I know the mind (as energy and not exactly as the brain) appears in us as a splitted part of the SELF (due to a shortcircuit shock, an electrical malfunction of the brain after the bigban), and I can say that it appears in us as the impostor of the SELF (SOUL-BEING) in human... And that is as much as the ego (the ruler of the mind's parts - unconsciously called and believed as the self as well making humans believe that surviving ians subsisting is living and existing when is not exactly) appears in human life as the impostor of pure CONSCIENCE.
You need to develop a safe way people can do this on their own to avoid ‘backlash’ because many people have no other option. We buy the books and do the work. Maybe you could write a book specifically for that use.
Jill Bolte Taylor's work on the 4 quadrants of the brain, which each have their own distinct character, is helpful here. Managers would inhabit the L frontal cortex (logical, analytical); exiles in the L rear, which stores memories of trauma etc; fire fighters in the R rear, which responds emotionally to presebt time events (triggers); and the Self in the R frontal cortex, which she discovered is the area that experiences no boundaries & deep connectedness with everything. Worth listening to her podcast, " Whole Brain Living".
This ifs has almost nothing in common with actual buddhism, and there are some pretty fundamental misunderstandings of Buddhism evidenced in this episode. While ifs may have practical value for some, it is at its core a fantasy story. And fantasy stories can sometimes be useful and helpful, but it's probably best to be aware that it is a fantasy story.
Try starting all over again. This time, listening actually and trying to understand both sides ( I don't find you much knowledgeable on Buddhism also).
From my own experience and inner work: I have, in my older age and in my solitude realized that members of my family, as much as I know them, are integrated within me. Buddhist thought on Non-Self or emptiness harmonizes with the fact, I feel, that we integrate not only family systems or members but anyone we meet - to the extent that we know them. Generally, we only get in touch with some aspects... and whatever that relationship is, is the aspect that becomes part of our non-self... It just makes sense to me. Also, another Buddhist aspect that helps me is: nothing is personal - so we heal the ego and work thru stuff so we may release the attachment to the past or to the person if still around. If we really really work at realizing that nothing is personal. ---- that, in time, will reveal more clearly the other person's patterns and realizing that we do not understand the scope of their background. So it is a good idea to cut the umbilical cord or attachment. If you think about it, the child just happened to be born in that family, for better or for worse. so vulnerable and at the mercy of the adults.... that is the set up that we are to work through when we become more conscious and more adult.
Re the 5 hindrances, Dr. Schwartz's way helps with the judgement that we can easily get into when Practicing Buddhism... his way gives us a much more integrative approach to transform the hindrances. That worked much better for me when I started thanking my hindrances for helping me in my life and just wanted to transform them rather than stifle them, judge them or make them wrong. To make the ego wrong is not a good idea... but to transform it so that the Buddha Nature can guide it and be the one running the show along side it.... so much better. Buddhist dharma is not complete... for remember it was at that time when they did not even write and also so many writings and translations and interpretations have come after that--- BUT what I love about you guys is your openness and gentleness, listening and sharing perspectives and transforming understanding along the way. Great episode...as usual!! Thank you!
OMG I’ve just made up an imaginary family with Forrest as my brother and Rick and Dick as my two loving dads 😂 Already they’re doing a lot better than my actual family or my internal family lol.
I found that Forrest kept trying to come back to getting more basic details from Dick to familiarise people with the different parts however Rick kept dragging the discussion back to ‘the self’ I didn’t enjoy this podcast which is unusual as I’m usually a great fan.
I super appreciate Rick's clarification questions. As a practicing Buddhist for a decade, I can feel lots of confusion about integrating my spiritual practice with IFS. I wish I had found this even sooner!
Thank you for this wonderful interview. The discussion about how the hinderances are treated in a lot of Buddhist practice is spot on. That is exactly why I quite doing vipassana meditation. I moved to the 6Rs practice described tranquil wisdom insight meditation practice (TWIM) and meditation got so much more enjoyable when I stopped pushing the hinderances away and got to know them. Since then I've also done a number of IFS sessions and found them to be very effective. This stuff works.
This interview answered questions I had. It clarified other concepts. I wish Dick would have elaborated on how arthritis is anger. I would ask an afantasia person: If you could imagine this in your body... What would it look like, sound like, taste like, smell like or feel like? Imagine where would it be in your body. If it would live in your body, Where would it live. That way it would not paint a person into a corner. Left brain preference people, come to mind. They could bypass the part saying to them that this isn't factual (or ask the afantasia part to sit back). Left brain people understand imagination. This can humor the process. The C for creativity and the P for playfulness comes to mind. The playfulness may bring the protector forth. Unfortunately in Houston, none of the IFS Therapists will see a person with a particular diagnosis that was mentioned in this show. That is truly heart breaking. I think fear plays a roll in this which makes me wonder how well these therapists have worked with their own parts. Some are level 3 in the IFS model. For this reason I continue to learn everything I can which led me to Open Dialogue. Still I am too close to the person which makes it hard for the process plus I am not a therapist. I am eternally grateful for this interview. May you have love, may you be well, may you find peace...
This interaction between you three wonderful humans was beautiful to witness. There was so much space for your big S Self to shine that I also connected with my own Self. I learned so much about where I’m at in terms of my parts. So helpful. Thank you all so much.🙏😇
A very enjoyable conversation - the presence and calmness of the three speakers was just exquisite and helped my system calm down and get in touch with Self. Thank you! ❤
I liked the description about the Self being 'under' as I've always experienced the deep enduring place right at the centre of me, or 'underneath' everything else... and I've also experienced the Self as the wheel rim, 'out there' akin to zen buddhist views, the totality of the Self as all awareness, whether that be formed from my own awareness, as my reality is always formed by my personal awareness of it, or something inner and outer simultaneously,, that encompasses everything.
Wonderful interview. It fits in so well with my experience in voice dialogue and psychology of selves (using it with myself and working with clients). It is so natural to do parts work with people who know nothing about the frameworks we use, which really speaks to the realness of this structure/system of the psyche, and the results are another indicator of the usefulness and relevance of this work.
yeah ! thank you so much. so good to go to the Self right away. So we get used to recognize this inner benevolent state. Giving it ALL the Attention, or most of it. So we see more clearly about our moment.
From a Christian perspective, I will take away from this inspirational interview, the interpersonal way God interacts with us in a fallen world. It is through his grace, that we can learn to accept ourself and become a holistic human being. Our authentic self will/ can learn to survive the fragmentation encountered in trauma through therapeutic healing and realizing/processing that there is something greater than the self to rescue us.
Wow, another amazing deep dive into IFS, thank you, this was so informative, rooted in curiosity, and I'm so interested in the intersection of self as.... soul? As a person in IFS now, this helps me see why I experience my Self more in a faith based service and how healing I find that in my therapy journey.
This seemed like it was going to be such a wonderful subject, but unfortunately it was WAY over my head! I was also disappointed it was so focused on religion. 😢
touchingly humanizing to hear the developer of this great system of thought impart a bit of his own story regarding his father. also heartening to hear him recount his discovery of spirituality as the real core of the matter.
