Hey, Great Video! Just one thing, maybe I missed something with the phytic acids/malt phosphate or something but you say at 28:18 or so that we shouldn't use chalk because it will just precipitate out of solution at the pH sweet spot. Doesn't calcium carbonate precipitate out of water solution at a much higher pH (not anywhere near the sweet spot)? I understand that the calcium will later precipitate out with the malt phosphate but it doesn't sound like that's what you're referring to. Carbonate contributes more to alkalinity than bicarbonate, and if calcium is the problem in this equation, would sodium carbonate (Na2CO3) work? I think I've heard John Palmer saying something similar, but try as I might, I can't seem to make sense of it. Thanks!
I am looking all your videos about water. It is fantastic. Three days ago a end the water's chapters from Palmer, where he talks about this topic ¿how predict the mash pH? So I understand that if we want to calculate the exact pH we have to make all the proof like each malt that we are using for calculate its acid and other things. Because these grafics are with the malt that autors used. And the malt have variety. Am I ok?
Hi Lyle, I don't believe it's important to try and determine the difference between permanent and temporary hardness with regards to brewing water . Just knowing the calcium, magnesium, and alkalinity you are able to determine your residual alkalinity (RA), which is a good estimator with regards to knowing what style of beer your base water is best suited for, or better yet what things you might need to do to your water to adjust it for beer styles it's not good for. You RA results around 254, which is very high and best for stouts, the darkest of beers. The more acidic grist will temper/react with the alkaline ions in your water, but still, the more the alkalinity, the harder it will be for the water to change pH. Boiling your water first, and then siphoning it off the dropped out carbonates (temp hardness) would be a simple and cheap start before trying to brew lighter beers. Part III in this series talks more about that. Hope this helps! Cheers!
Hi Tony, thanks a lot for this great Video, that gives a lot of valuable Information on the importance of water quality. I have one question: in one of your last slides you summarized the SO4/Cl-Ratios for various categories of beer styles. Could it be that the ratios are the other way Arouca: 3:1 SO4/Cl for stouts and porters?
Hi Juergen, thanks and I'm glad this had value for you. The sulfate to chloride ratios presented for dark malty beers is correct. More sulfate than chloride would be appropriate for a Cascadian IPA, or Black IPA, but even then at low levels. Stouts and Porters should be more malt forward with a smooth mouthfeel, which is derived from a higher concentration of chloride. Cheers!
Hi Tony thanks for the extensive video! I got a extensive water report from the pump station that supplies the water to my house in the netherlands city of Roermond. The values are averaged over multiple measurements taken in 2016 there was not a high standarddeviation for each element. I used the RA-Nomograph you suplied and foud out that i can best brew dark beers. Ca= 67.63, Mg 7.04, HCO3 182.33, Cl- 37.79, SO4- 55.93, Na 23.99. It looks to me that i should find a way to reduce the high total Alkalinity to be able to brew a better blond beer. Is there a easy method to do this?
Really interesting vid Tony. Yet to analyse or modified my water. However as water is by far the largest ingredient in any beer, and us home brewers are all trying to brew the ultimate beer. We obviously need to use the ideal ingredients.
thanks Tony, another info packed video. have been looking to get my feet wet for a while with water additions and this video has given me a good shove to get it happening. I have a question: I've managed to get some data on my water from the local municipality, your video and other sources have given me a reasonable understanding of how and why to change the water profile, but I'm not sure what I should be aiming for. I remember you recommend additions for newtohomebrewtom, can you tell me what they were aiming for?? thanking you in advance.
+Stass Brewing Hi, yeah I would be glad to help. I tested Toms water and with that he took the profile and plugged it into a spreadsheet (I'm assuming) and came up with those addition on his own. With knowing what your water profile is, the next step is to figure out what your target profile is - which is going to be different for different beer styles. The different styles, or more accurately different grist acidities, will determine what treatments are needed to reach your target profile for reaching optimal mash pH, and flavor profile. Unfortunately one size does not fit all. I'm working on the next video that will compare and explore the tools for dialing in target profiles that get the mash in the pH ballpark with the correct flavor profiles for the different styles. Cheers!
ah ok cool. I must have misunderstood what Tom said in his video, I thought that you had given his the additions (or suggested the additions) to make; which is why I asked what profile you were using when you made those suggestions. Ok, I think I understand all the steps (thanks to your great vids and other online researching). The next step is to take the leap of faith into the unknown, though from all accounts, it's a good thing to do. Cheers Tony! Keep up the great work!
I was expecting this one for long! Thanks for this great "lesson". PhD level! I am really looking forward to video number 3. Starting with distilled water and building up with salts seems the safest option. Unfortunately my local water (Limburg Belgium) comes from 4 production center with different compositions. I don´t even get to know RA (or HCO3). It costs me 0,15€ per liter of distilled water. I think I will be trying to build up from that. It is time to start digging into "water" to improve my brews and your videos are coming out just perfect! Cheers
+The Full Mug Glad to know you like them! Yeah building up a profile from Distilled or RO water is easier compared to dealing with inconsistent sources. That's got to be frustrating. Best regards, cheers!
Brilliant video, thank you very much. It is all starting to make sense, just need to watch it again to get my head around it. Chemistry scares me!!! I've recently had my water tested, but they were unable to tell me the sodium levels, which is a shame, but I am assuming (at the moment), that this isn't too critical..............yet?? Thanks again.
Hi! No, if you have been brewing and things are turning out fine then no, it's probably not critical. If you have all of the other values though, it's not hard to figure it out. I have create a Sodium Calculator you can use. It's based on how sodium is calculated in the LaMotte Water Kit manual: docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1isoVuWGq_C4xnIF6CSLrwGvavl82G2QFs7mov86gE78/edit?usp=sharing Hope this helps! Cheers!
Great video! I'm happy I got really soft water, makes the whole water adjustments easier. Measured my water to 30ppm with a chinese TDS meter, which I think is similar to most Norwegian water, So I think most Norwegian are brewing with too soft water :)
thankyou so much for explaining this Tony, I live in south eastern Australia, climate here is like Oregon / Northern California it is a generally high rainfall area my water comes from a temperate rain forest and is almost the same as yours, very low in calcium....Calcium mg/L 5.5 Calcium Hardness -13.4 Magnesium 3.0 Magnesium hardness 12.4 sulfate 3.0 Total hardness 25.9 and PH is 7.4 ....going to check out that chart of John Palmer, cheers
Hi Peter, like an old friend that comes to visit from time to time, I remember you :-) I'm glad you like this video. Yes, that's a really great tool for determining your residual alkalinity and getting a ballpark idea of what beer color you water is best suited for without any adjustments. You don't mention alkalinity or chloride, but your hardness and sulfate values look useful - better to be able to add then to have to take away. :-) Cheers!
Hi Peter, what about Alkalinity? Do they report the Bicarbonate or Total Alkalinity level, or Carbonate? If I had these, I reasonably deduce your Chloride levels by finding the Cation/Anion balance. Cheers!
just total hardness which is 2.5 mg/L and sulfate, 3.0 mg/L nothing about alkalinity, it is impossible to get a full water profile from them, all I know is that it is soft, I did some research online and there are a lot of brewing blogs and people in my area have the same problem, they don't give out Total Alkalinity level, or Carbonate for some bizarre reason, I can only assume that it would be pretty low, I will try and find out, thanks
Thanks for doing this video Tony, I have the same soft water as you in the UK do you also use bru n water calculator? Last brew i used the london profile for a porter the difference is night and day when i added compared to doing nothing in the past. Do you mix the salts in hot water before adding? I threw all mine in the mash last time and it turned out alright, Im about to start brewing on a commercial setup soon so i want to make sure im getting my water the best i can make it! Thanks
Hi Daz! Yeah, I have the supporters version of BruNWater and use it when planning every brew day. Like I said at the end of this video, I add my salts directly to the mash after the malts added. The reason I do it like this instead of adding to water first has primarily to do with my process (under-let). If I were to add the grains to the strike water, like most people do, it's recommended to add the salts to the water first to ensure a good saturation in the water and therefore contact with the malts. However, since I am constantly recirculating for the duration of the mash, and stirring the grains a few times during the mash, I believe I get good saturation and it seems to work for me. With regards to moving to a difference brewing setup, yeah it's going to possibly require a different process and something you are going to have to think about. Most commercial systems I have seen have an HLT that can hold all of the water necessary for a complete brew, and therefore can be treated to a set profile and not be bothered with refilling it after striking the mash (like my HLT), ensuring a consistent strike and mash water profile. Mash pH is the most important, but I also monitor pH pre and post boil, as well as post fermentation. Hope this helps! Cheers!
Thanks for the reply Tony, Yes the HLT is big enough to hold strike and sparge ill just add it all to that then, I cant remember who now but someone told me not to go over 100 on the chloride because it gives strange mineral taste but Murphy's water report tells me to go over it? What profiles have you tried for pale ales and stouts etc? Thanks
Hi Daz, Yeah, 100 ppm limit on Chloride is what's documented in the water book, with an upper limit of 150 ppm for a handful of sweeter/stronger/darker lagers and ales. Anything higher (greater then 200) can give the beer a pasty or salty taste. I use water profiles that are in the ranges found in the Water book (chapter 7), which are also available in the downloadable spreadsheet on HowToBrew.com at the bottom of the Residual Alkalinity page: howtobrew.com/book/section-3/understanding-the-mash-ph/residual-alkalinity-and-mash-ph Hope this helps! Cheers!
Excellent video Tony. Much needed reminder for me and my garage brew house to revisit my local water report and make sure I am giving my mash proper PH. Cheers!
Hey Tony, great video! I have been doing my water chemistry for 2 years now, for lowering my PH i use citric acid, any reason why i should not be using this acid? Cheers!
I remember reading somewhere that citric acid was popular back when Charlie Papazian started homebrewing, and it was mainly because that's what was easy to get their hands on back then. While it is stronger than phosphoric, i.e. more effective at reducing alkalinity, it comes at a cost of added flavor by the citrate ions. I've also read that citric acid used to reduce the pH on fruity/citrusy hoppy beers can be complementary, but that it does not seem so with more malt-forward beers. I've personally never used it, so I can't say for sure. I have thought about it for a fruity/citrusy beer. The others I mention, lactic and phosphoric, have a more neutral flavor than citric, and is probably why they seem more popular nowadays. What's your experience with using citric acid? Have you ever experienced what I've mentioned, or am I just subject to Fake Information? :-)
These are excellent videos Tony! I am fairly new to homebrewing (made my first batch a few months ago) and have been watching your informative videos since the beginning. I enjoyed your journey to a healthy lifestyle and it was neat to see how you are able to incorporate your love of homebrew into your life still. It is reassuring to see someone else be able to accomplish this as well. But I digress. After watching hundreds of hours of video and reading multiple books on the homebrew subject, it became apparent to me that water plays a larger role than it is given credit. So I recently, today actually,stopped by my water district offices and had the GM give me some of the water report numbers that I thought I may need. I noticed in some of your previous videos that you were kind enough to help out Newtohomebrew Tom with deciphering his water report numbers. I was wondering if you would be so kind as to taking a look at the numbers I was given. I have a fair idea of what I am looking at, but it would be reassuring to have a professional such as yourself give input. Keep the terrific videos coming and I look forward to the next installment. Now to re-watch these water videos, so much information I am sure I missed something. Cheers!
Hi Chris, of course I'll help in any way I can. If you want to keep it going here, simply reply here, or send me an email to tonster321 *at* gmail dot c o m. Cheers!
Hi Tony, thank you so much for taking the time to educate most or probably all of us and helping us produce better beers, great video, as after the first instalment will need to watch several times to absorb the content, cheers mate.
Great video, I am trying to calculate my Hardness with the lamotte brew lab and I am getting a reading over 500PPM. I did the additional test with the diluted sample and I want to know if I add the results of the diluted sample to 500 considering I am using a diluted sample
ewok671 Hi! If you diluted a sample and conducted a total hardness test on that sample, then no, you would not add that to the 500 from the non diluted sample. If I understand you correctly, then I think you would have to know the factor at which you diluted by, and use that to figure out if the original nondiluted value was accurate. Where are you, roughly? That’s some pretty hard water. Cheers!
I did another test and realized I used the wrong test tube. My hardness came out to 220ppm, still high but manageable. I am in Guam getting water from limestone groundwater.
Ah, yeah that would have some impact on the results! Have you tried boiling water for 15 minutes, then give it an hour or so to settle, then take a sample and test from that water? There is likely some temporary hardness that will precipitate out and give you even better brewing water. Best regards!
Thanks Steve, I really appreciate it, and just glad you like it. Hey I learned a lot from those mead videos, speaking of which I need to get another one on...! Cheers!
Just found your page and these videos are really great. We are relatively new homebrewers so understanding these issues is key for us. We also started producing some brewing vids so if you have a chance check us out. Cheers!
Have I not commented on any of your videos yet? I am subbed and have seen a few - your last experiment and selecting ingredients video, etc. I think ever since your first HBW video about 6 months ago. I tend to queue them up and watch while I'm training/runnnig (treadmill) etc, so... Always interesting to watch brewing videos :-) Cheers!
Great work Tony, you really have pitched the right level of detail at the right pace. Got a feeling that these videos will be used for reference for along time.
Hey No Holds Beard (love that name!). Yeah I tried to keep it at a high enough level, just scratching the surface, and point out the most relevant parts. I'm glad you like the tempo. I appreciate it. Cheers!
