I'd have to say that I agree with it only being included if necessary, BUT I also tend to gravitate toward the books that do have it because it is something I enjoy.
I’m in the “add a romantic subplot if it arises naturally from the characters”. For me, a romantic subplot is fine and I’ll usually be totally on board with it if it a) agrees with the previous statement and b) the characters are better when they’re together (as cheesy as it sounds). If the characters aren’t happier, open with each other, and just generally working together most of the time (because arguments happen, that’s life), I’m not going to be onboard.
I agree. To me, it should be something that develops organically. Sometimes it is a way for one (or both) characters to learn something about themselves from the other (and surprise, that's kind of how love comes about in life too, right?) There's subtext in my current story, but I'm not pushing it. When it happens naturally, they'll recognize all the lead-up from the previous subtext.
Exactly. In many cases the romantic subplot is not necessary. But it can be a nice bonus if the relationship is healthy and sweet. But nowadays, in mainstream medias, they are rarely sweet and healthy. I've seen so many stories trying to sell a "romantic" (sub)plot as amazing when it was actually toxic. I'm afraid of the image of romance we give to the youngsters. And I wish we would have more stories that show that romance is nice, but it's not all there is to have. I also wish more stories would show that love (deep emotional and spiritual connexion) is different from sexual attraction (physical desire that comes from reproductive needs). So late bloomers and aro/ace people would not feel like freaks and give in to social pressure.
I think the romance trope is included in most genre books because romance and the search for someone to love is the most basic and common thread of the human condition. No matter how people idenity themselves, most all want, need, or are looking for someone to love and who'll love them back, who might be that person they feel they could spend the rest of their life with. YA is tricky, especially for a 13 or 15 y.o. writer, because they have so little experience with true romance and they're most often not mature enough to fully grasp the implications of a romantic relationship. But still, teenagers, with their raging hormones, are very caught up in who likes or is hooking up with who and all that. More than anything else in a human's life, we search for that special person we can be ourselves with, who understands us. So why wouldn't it be included in most novels when it's often the single most important long term aspect of people's lives? And the greatest conflicts of our lives have a foundation in romance. Just look what otherwise stable, well-grounded, intelligent people do in the name of love, often the most horrendous things, because the pull of love and romance is exponentially strong, in fact stronger than most anything else.
I agree, it's almost as if you didn't include breathing and eating. The perpetuation of the species is based on romance and the thereafter it's like if you didn't include conflict. If it grows organiclly into your book it should be there because is a part of the character life to want love and things. Most realist stories (dostoievsky etc) will include that because is part of the mesh of society, most likely if the concept of the book is Kafkian or something then the concept will not grow organiclly a romance because the focus could be on niihilism, philosophy or else etc...
Well said about the yearning to be loved. We all feel that as humans. I would argue, in fact, that teens exhibit this yearning in hyperdrive. While love and romance are not the only things they strive for, young people are driven by this natural phenom. This to me is so true to nature, that it seems almost unrealistic not to include at least some level of interior sexual yearning for young adults in fiction. Unless the characters are in deep deep diar physical or psychological survival predicaments throughout the entire story, i find it hard to grasp that they would not have some level of longing for physical and emotional connection. Besides, from a story perspective, love and romance subplots often times provide the writer the ability to show or develop deeper vulnerability in characters, as intimacy requires so much vulnerability. Intimate longing is especially useful for characters who have had hard knocks and have been toughened through past trials. Even if the yearning is u requited. So, on one hand, romantic intimacy is a natural human longing, and on the other hand, can show vulnerability or develop vulnerability. It isn't always needed, but I'd say it's always natural when used so long as it aids in story and character development.
I agree about everyone having the desire to find acceptance and belonging. Even aro/ace people. But you can find it through other types of relationships, like friendships, (found) family... Many teenagers start looking for a significant other soon. Many partake in the hook up culture. But for many of them, is it because they are ready? Or because médias/stories made them believe this what they want? How many of them are late bloomers (or aro/ace) and feel pressured into acting like everyone else because they feel like freaks for a lack of stories telling them it is okay to not be ready... Or to not want it either? While I appreciate a cute romantic subplot, they are rarely sweet and healthy. I've seen so many stories trying to sell a "romantic" (sub)plot as amazing when it was actually toxic. I'm afraid of the image of romance we give to the youngsters. And I wish we would have more stories that shows that romance is nice, but it's not all there is to have. I also wish more stories would show that love (deep emotional and spiritual connexion) is different from sexual attraction (physical desire that comes from reproductive needs).
Could we please see 'the chosen one' next. I think it would be more useful to fully understand the trope so that I can more effectively subvert it. Good video by the way.
I liked when Sanderson said he took his mom to watch Lord of the Rings and the two things she cared about was rooting for Gollum to be good and for Aragorn to end up with the Elf Lady.
I think that we kind of have a dual problem of forcing in romances because its assumed it will make it sell, but also of shaming romance readers like they are a lesser group with lower intelligence and taste who likes dumb things. I think we should focus on just freeing people to like what they like (as long as it's not like, glorifying pedophilia or some extreme crime like that). I think we run the risk of doing the same thing to non-romance books as we did to romance heavy books: we turn it into a fad. Then it becomes another thing that is over-marketed and trendy instead of just being a story.
i think the love interest subplot is so common is bc of marketing purposes, it is a strong subplot such as in the film "The Departed," but when it is overshadows ostensibly the main plotline the audience assumed the story is going to follow, it is aggravating
I watched someone play a game recently where the plot was centered on the adopted main character's lost family connections and included no romance but was really compelling. It was really refreshing actually
I like well written romantic subplot, and especially slow burn, either because the characters already know each other before the story starts, or because it takes place in a reasonable time frame, even across the span of multiple books. In most cases the romantic sub plots that most frustrate me are the ones that feel overdone. They are too extreme in their emotions for too short at time, and it makes it very difficult to become invested. Furthermore it’s a SUB plot, it shouldn’t overtake the main plot of the story. To add spice, and tension, and maybe even a bit fluff, but not as the main focal point of the plot. There needs to be some other substance within the story arcs.
This is the ultimate reason: romance is the perfect way to add layers to the story AND it makes the story more realistic and well rounded. Most people have been in at least one relationship in their life.
While I enjoy a sweet romantic subplot when it is done well, in many cases it isn't that well done. In so many stories it is just here to add unnecessary drama and drags the story too much without adding any substance to it. It can even be detrimental to the story. And it is rarely realistic (or just believable).
@@elisa4620 I 💯 agree with you on romance. It's almost always terribly written. That's why I always say I favor love stories-- not romances, rom/coms, chickflicks. Love stories are what I call movies and books that have the relationship as the main focus but it's not developed by physical contact or big gestures, but by acts of kindness, forgiveness, and sacrifice.
@@candellina6 That's an interesting way of saying it! :) And I think I get you. I tend to prefer a love story (main or sub-plot) when most drama happens outside of it. I prefer when the relationship is more of the sweet and wholesome type, with respect and commitment from all partners and lots of "simple" but sweet and meaningful moments. When they talk and support each others and bring the best in each others, help each others grow. And yeah, sometimes make sacrifices or compromises. Of course there might/should be misunderstandings and disagreements. But no need to be immature or drama-queens about it. That to me, adds a lot to the story. :) But when you think about it, all of that can also come from family, friends, mentors,... Or even strangers sometimes.
@@elisa4620 I think on the same wave length on the deeper details. I wish I could meet you in real life. I can tell we'd be great friends. You seem like a kindred spirit.
I think what leaves me bored with so many romantic subplots is that they so often feel perfunctory, secondary, and formulaic. In the real world, if a relationship just feels perfunctory, formulaic, or secondary to whatever else you're doing, it tends to suggest you're not all that invested. Which doesn't bode well for the reader.
I think they can be used to illustrate a character's deep seeded conditions, like Kaz Brekker and Inej in Six of Crows, which shows the desperate desire for intimacy but an inability to attain it. The characters have to find another way to express love because they can't be physical as the result of trauma. The dynamics of love and intimacy are explored in a non-traditional way and it answers the question: how do you show someone you love them without physical touch or romantic words?
The concept of "love languages" helps here. Words of affirmation, acts of service, receiving gifts, quality time, and physical touch. There are probably others, and most of us use more than one. Westley in _The Princess Bride_ , except Goldman should never have needed to tell us that "as you wish" meant "I love you". It should be apparent from the actions.
The Princess Bride is a great parody. I loved it. When you read between the lines the romance is based in physical attraction only (or it seemed like it when I read it). And Buttercup is a ditz. So maybe it was done on purpose?
I don’t have a problem with the romantic subplot. But it needs to be needed to drive the plot forward. But I want less of people basically screwing on the page 🙄
tbh, I find it harder to care about my own writing when there's no romantic subplot, and it's a fairly natural subplot with the potential for character drama. And for so many movies, tv shows, books, etc, the will-they-or-won't-they is what helps to keep my interest even when the rest isn't engaging me at that moment. And, when it's taking me a while to build towards the actual romance subplot, I'll sometimes insert red herring romantic subplots... and kinda got too attached to them until it gets to the point where I consider just having that be the romantic subplot.
I really appreciate this video because that's been a question on my mind for the past year, how important is romance to a story. Great video! Thanks for making me feel validated haha
In all but one of my novels, I have a romance but there is not enough of it to even consider it a subplot. The two like each other or they are married and they act that way. :)
I'm currently starting to write a story that has a core group of 5 (later 6) characters, and the key relationship is supposed to be their team dynamic. However, I also want to include 2 very minor romantic subplots. the first is a well-established pair that is engaged before the story even starts (using them as a very consistent thing in the story and an almost parental role to the group) and the second is a budding relationship that starts out between two characters as a kinda baby crush that later develops into something more but the two don't actually get together until the very end. My issue is that none of these four characters are the narrator of the story and I don't know how to express what I want properly because these are in no way supposed to be the focus. My story is supposed to be a sort of fantasy adventure story but it just happens to have a few romance's in the background I guess?
I don't really mind either way. When I take issue is when it isn't done well. Like Daenerys and Jon in game of thrones. That relationship happened cause plot. But it was cringe inducing. Though, GRRM would certainly do it better. YA authors though, like love triangles too much. That's something easy to not do well, lol
I agree--done well, a romance plotline can be great. And I'm totally with you on the Jon and Daenerys relationship not working well (though, it seems not much of season 8 did haha)
If your story with a romantic subplot feels better, add it. But some stories, like mine, a romantic subplot is absolutely unnecessary. If it's something that will guide your story to somewhere, add it. If not, you don't need it.
AGREED on the romantic sub plot. I'm not against romance but when a woman is trying to keep from getting killed by her ex, getting involved with another guy SHOULD be pretty LOW on her list of things to do. ESPECIALLY when her ex is trying to get back at her because of jealousy, (imagined affairs she's having...or not) If he's watching her from unknown locals, and sees her making out with the detective who's supposedly protecting her, that 'romance' may do much more harm than good.
I can't seem to write without a romantic subplot. I also seem to be hooked on Hallmark, perish the thought. I just found this channel and am sharing it with my writing group. I would like to know your name so I could check out some of your writing. Love the channel thus far. :-)
Every story I've ever dreamed up since the age of 8 had a romantic "sub-plot" as a foundational purpose of the main plot. Why in the world would you want to go through an adventure without a romantic partner?
Because you are sharing this moment with other people who are equally (if not more) important to you? Like friends or family members. If the romance is sweet it could be nice though :)
Getting to the end of the video, I feel better that I decided to ditch the forced romance in my book. The relationship in my story is more rounded around friendship and family issue. (Not a YA though)
First of all, thank you for this video and the list. I do enjoy a romantic subplot. It is an endearing bonus when it is well-written and adds to the characters and to the story... Which is rarely the case. In so many stories the romantic subplot is just here to add unnecessary drama and drags the story too much without adding any interesting substance to it. It can even be detrimental to the story. And it is rarely realistic (or just believable) anyway. So I wouldn't say that I am tired of romantic subplots per se, it's more that I am tired of all the badly written ones and wary of the effects the systematisation of romance in stories has on people's mindsets. One of the main arguments for always forcing romance in stories is that everyone longs for love because we all seek acceptance and deep connections. That is is universal etc. While I agree with that desire, even for aro/ace people, we can find acceptance and deep connections through other types of relationships, like friendships, (found) family... Sometimes even more than in romantic relationships. About teenagers and YA: we know that many (young) teenagers read YA or watch the equivalent in movies and shows. They are heavily influenced by them. Many teenagers start looking for a significant other soon. Many partake in the hook up culture. But for some of them, is it really because they are ready? Is it really because they want it? Or is it because medias/stories made them believe this is what they want/should be doing? How many of them are late bloomers (or aro/ace specs) and feel pressured into acting like everyone else because they feel like freaks for a lack of stories telling them it is okay to not be ready... Or to not want it? Aro/ace specs representation is almost non-existent in mainstream medias so it's difficult for people to know it's even something that exists. And when there is representation it is rarely positive... That's not even talking about the many stories that romanticize toxic and problematic relationships... I'm concerned with the image of romance we give to the youngsters and the influence it has on their psyche. I wish we would have more stories that show that romance is nice, great even, but it's not all there is to want. That it is not the only way to find acceptance and deep connections. And what healthy relationships look like. I also wish more stories would show that not only love (deep emotional and spiritual connexion) can have many forms but that it is different from sexual attraction (physical desire that comes from reproductive "needs"). I also HATE how romantic love is always called "more" than other types of love. It isn't. That's a big pet peeves of mine.
My teens were helping me hash out my next series. I hadn't planned to add romance sub plots, but to keep my plot moving, I don't have a choice...maybe my next books can have a similar theme w/o romance. Lol My 14yo son said "it seems to have too much romance in it..." Oops 🤣 My first series is complete romance, so what can I do? 😜 I will make it my goal to make a romance free, with my chosen topic, for the next book/seriel. 🤷 I fully agree with you tho
For the record, I would rather read any story with the heroes journey than without! It's a tried and true story map that has been around since the dawn of story telling. It's what makes the old stories fun and desirable to read over and over. The romantic subplot can be good if it's not overdone. For me it should have comic relief elements and not so drippy or serious. Don't forget though, its all a matter of personal taste!
I didn't plan to have one in mine as well, but this character I created for plot kinda developed into this very fleshed out person and I fell in love with her and ended up writing a romance subplot that fortunately helped the main plot by the end.
Romantic subplots should only exist if the characters fit naturally. I've read too many books (y/a where they changed the characters to suit each other. Specifically I'm calling out Ransom Riggs. Peculiar children is my absolute favorite series but my god! EMMA AND JACOB DONT FIT!!!
I don't recall much of a romantic subplot in Hitchhiker's (apart from the comedic subplot, involving Dent's failed attempt to talk with a lady at a party, who instead goes with Beeblebrox
I tend to take a pragmatic view towards writing romance into short stories. The novel on which I've been working, includes a few different types of romances; those which are experienced by different age groups and cultures. My main motivation for including these romantic relationships was not to idealize romance, but rather because relationships are part of the human experience. Unless the character grows in complete isolation, truly cut off from the world, the character will have some form of connection with other beings. Even the "The Old Man and the Sea" deals with relationships, itself being an allegory for different forms of relationships. The connections between the characters in a story may also develop into or arise from some form of attraction. If the story is unfolding within the broader context of a hero's journey, some of these developments may be romantic. Romantic relationships act as a mirror for the characters and the reader. Depending on how the relationships are built or break apart, the author can shine lights on the whole range of human natures and speak to the reader in such a way that the reader looks within, checking their actions and motivations in their own relationships. However, when I'm writing poetry, the writing is almost always about some form of romance, or even just the ideal of a romance; a romancing of romance, as it were. Various natural and abstract wonders become personifications of the attraction that starts a romance or the feelings that motivate one. Again though, it can be viewed as or through a mirror of the soul.
Eh, I ship a lot but a guess no romantic subplots is nice, there's not much of it in what a read but the first to major books I read had romantic subplots, the first one is done really well but the second one has some good points like when they were accused of murder or teaching the main character the language they spoke around the place, but it was really thrown in there. The first one is really well done and the romantic interest of the main character is more into him then he is to her and even got her own book a couple years later in the eighth book, but the first book of that series is probably my second favorite, first being the tenth. The series is wings of fire by Tui. T. Sutherland.
i believe there should no be so much energy placed on romantic subplots. Love is love and that is fine but not everyone falls in love and a lot of relationship are not monogamous anymore.
Oh my gosh. I had just decided to bite the bullet and put rom plot in my adventure/poltical/fantasy book. Now I'm not sure. If some one replies to this you call it. Yay or nay
It's like sex and violence. People respond to it and it looks like an easy way to appeal to the audience. And it can be gratuitous, badly done, and obviously tacked on to the story.
I'm personally tired of romance in original works. I wouldn't mind it if it wasn't this common - but if I want to see two characters together, I read fanfiction, in which it's the ACTUAL center of the story, not a story that is about something completely other in which the romance was squeezed in even though the characters literally just met and that I may not even personally see any chemistry between. It also tends to add useless misunderstandings and stuff that the story would be better without. I have an issue with so many of the tropes that tend to surround romantic subplots - I think maybe that's also why I'm tired of them, they just feel like photocopies of each other. Please just stop trying to squeeze it in... Overall, I tend to gravitate towards original works that don't seem to have much romance, and towards fanfiction that either have intimate scenes (I'm horny okay) or any type of relationship between the characters I like overall (note: edited because youtube got annoying, yet it continued bothering me, what did I do wrong)
I can tell you why it's in most books in two words; it sells. Now, personally, I don't think it has to be in all of them, however you want your book to sell. Romance/sex sells.
Sadly yes, but it's a shame they often don't even try to put in the efforts to write it well. I also think that the almost constant amalgation of having strong sexual attraction = love is dangerous.
Hmmm. My romance novel has a romantic subplot. Widowed 33 y.o. Mom, 17 y.o. daughter (Heroine), 21 y.o. male Coworker of mom, and 20 y.o. Hero. Their society used to embrace arranged marriage and the bride-price, but no one's done that for a couple of generations (or at least no one admits to it). -- Of course the _real_ romance is between Hero and Heroine. -- Coworker wants a wife decides Heroine is ideal, but he barley knows her and is shy. His mother suggests the old ways are best so he approaches girl's Mom (proper old-way technique) at work and takes her to dinner to discuss something important. He gets tongue tied and Mom jumps to conclusions (he's kinda young, but damn...). They realize their slight _faux pas_ and joke about it (but Mom's disappointed). He dates Heroine (always with Mom there). As Heroine learns about Coworker's dreams and aspirations she decides, "Not for me." On first alone date she breaks up with him and let's him down by revealing Mom has the hots for him. Meanwhile Hero was powerless to counter Coworker's moves as he has his own problems to deal with. Problems partly fixed he pursues Heroine and they connect. Hero and Heroine team up to defeat the Big Bad at the climax, then it's HEA! Big Bad has his own romantic subplot, but it's not a romance. The woman is hopeful, but he's just using her (and we see those scenes from his POV). Her role fixes a specific plot hole. Once the hole is fixed, Big Bad kills her and leaves her in a dumpster.
TBF, the romance book readers are the most voracious readers...so if ppl want to make money vs just writing to be heard, or simply accomplish something most ppl don't, then romance is the way to go 🤷
I agree a romantic subplot badly executed - as you said - that does not add to the story, should go - as any badly executed subplot of any type, in any story should go. Keep what’s relevant, discard what isn’t. I must, say your personal preferences that it not be included was fairly obvious. I’ve enjoyed your videos, this one was disappointing. Write the best story you can, with the strongest, relevant elements necessary. Period.
