Iron flask is super broken in Dnd 5e! 

I mean, of course it's broken. I mean... it's a Legendary item. They're _supposed_ to be powerful. XD

@@LucanVaris +3 net is a legendary item! I don't see that breaking the game anytime soon. I'd sooner give out a Vorpal Sword, 29 strength belt of giant strength, armour of invulnerability of a invisibility cloak 1st. I read the Iron flask 1st time as random loot chart suggestion & said out loud ''there is no way I'm giving this to any table''. So gave a Moon blade out instead which made the elf happy & gave the underpowered barbarian 29st belt of strength was not as hard to deal with as you think for he did a lot of suboptimal choices. Party truly believed I gave them the better deal of loot as I gave extra items, the innocence.

@@arnijulian6241 To be fair, there _are_ exceptions to the rule, much like how Weapon of Warning proves that not all Uncommons are weak. Comparing the general selection of Legendary items to the general selection of, let's say, Uncommon and below, however, kinda tells you what the general rule of thumb happens to be. As an example, let's compare that Moonblade of yours to a Moon-Touched Sword. A Moonblade can be the Macguffin for an entire campaign, as one could be seeking out the heir to the Elven King, in order to deliver a custom version of the blade to its rightful owner. The players are then whisked away into an all-out battle between light and darkness, with that sword tipping the scales near the very end, once the Elven Prince is reunited with the blade of his people, passed down through generations immemorable. In comparison, a Moon-Touched Sword... can be an Artificer's plaything by level 2, and doubles as a glowstick.

I cast rope trick and we both went inside. I captured him there.

@@PackTactics Lies! The only explanation is ALIENS!!! @_@

Gator is from another PAIN of existence.

unlike planar binding, the iron flask has no such limitations. The creature is friendly to you and your companions

@@defensivekobra3873 the classic creature to be in an iron flask is an efreeti, an evil fire genie. that would then be forced to give you a wish but who is guaranteed to twist the wish then when the wish is done and he is free, try to kill or enslave you. the 5e version is a bit different, but if we are going on the items traditional use then the creature will still be able to twist wordings.

@@EvelynNdenial I think that is supposed to be Efreeti Bottle not Iron Flask.

*too stupid to twist [...] their benefit.

But they're charmed so it'd be like your good friend asking you to do something and you being a complete dick about it.

This is somewhat ambiguous IMO. "You" could either be referring to just the user of the flask (singular you) or both the user and target (plural you). I think the spirit of the rule is the plural reading, but definitely talk to your DM about it.

Nice catch! There are ways to cast spells across planes, it is just harder to achieve and all the good spells have 'same plane' clause!

@@RealDanteS01 well even in a plural you case, you can still easily _maintain_ control using a Rope Trick, since a command to enter the Rope Trick dimension isn't likely to result in death.

-unfortunately, from Rope Trick's spell description "Attacks and Spells can't cross through the entrance into or out of the extradimensional space"- Nevermind, I was mistaken. The flask's effect is neither of those prohibited things.

@@elliotbryant3459 ah right. Rip

Yes, but not RAW. It's actually a fairly common thing to allow a target to "choose to fail a save", but not many spells or effect actually have that written in their description.

Saves are reflexive and happen automatically unless a stipulation is written that you can choose to fail it. You don't even need to be aware of the effect, you roll the save check automatically.

@@remyb6854 While you are correct by RAW, I feel that is a very gamey way of interpreting it. If I am an iron golem and I get hit with a fireball, going by that logic I try to dodge it even though eating all of the damage would be to my benefit. That is silly. I feel that logic should supersede game rules in this case.

​@@starslayer8390 One still instinctively try to protect themselves, they do so before rationally concluding they are not in danger from the sudden appearance of a violent magical effect! It just happens that a iron golem covering it's face in this one situation causes 0 points of damage to be reduced, had it been some other effect that instinct would have been more important. However, as it still successfully made the reflex/dexterity save, it *instinctively* did something to protect it's vital spots from the blow....

@@starslayer8390 Explain how you plan to intentionally fail a constitution save against poison after getting stabbed by a poisoned blade. If you have a solid answer how someone intentionally fails that saving throw, then sure, you can characterize my take as "gamey" if you want. Until then, how about don't insult people for knowing how the rules work?

looking at you, gen 1 psychic types.

Legendary Resistance. They can just choose to succeed.

@@chrismanuel9768 Obviously you would whittle those down first

Exactly as I would if someone was stupid enough to give me the Iron Flask. Big bad end of the world demi-god? Enough debuffs and it goes in the Flask like everything else.

we had a black slaad, maybe it was death too, in an iron flask. Killed a white dragon attacking a city with it's parent Flayer, a white dracolich, which honed in on us. Asked the slaad to take us somewhere safe: planar travel ability. Ended up in Valhalla drinking and fighting vikings, our war cleric being a worshiper of Wotan. Turned into a fantastic time. Love high level D&D!

I once planned a way to capture another PC (The Monk) after the campaign was over because the grand prize of the campaign is immortality, and the Monk is probably going to betray my PC at some point. So I looked at the Iron Flask and decided that the best course of action was using (probably several) Hypnotic Patterns until she was dozed and then put her in a bag of holding, using Rope Trick to carry her to an extradimensional space and then use the flask. Once inside the flask, throw her in a demiplane using a spell scroll and voilà, she's essentially dead. She's honestly a loner so nobody would miss her. TL;DR I couldn't kill the Monk, but an eternity trapped in another dimension with nobody to rescue you is basically the same.

​@@fero_zetta pikasprey yellow could find a way out of the soft lock

It would be interesting to have a trustworthy PC capture another PC in the flask just to be able to control them in case they get mind controlled if the party is on a different plane of existence.

​@@jaredlippinghoff532 Okay then, to solidify the deal, use a wish spell scroll to erase from everyone's minds, records, souls and beyond the knowledge and destiny of the Monk in question across the multiverse. This way the demiplane cannot be opened again and she is truly stuck there forever.

@@fero_zetta you might not even need a wish spell, depending on your DM. You could, in lore (though not in gameplay RAW), cast a lengthy ritual spell with at several other powerful spellcasters to cast a powerful version of the modify memory spell, though with expanded effects. This isn't RAW in any way, but you could most certainly do this kid of thing in the lore.

that's almost 5 generations of pokemon!

-"Attacks and Spells can't cross through the entrance into or out of the extradimensional space."- edit: nevermind

@@elliotbryant3459 it's not an attack or a spell, it's the effect of a magic item, so it can cross.

@@Turminal1 oops, I'm dumb.

Considering creatures inside don't age, I would argue spell affects also do not expire inside, and in general anything time-affected does not happen

@@smbsmw1111 What if you drop concentration? I think that'd do the trick regardless of time

@@smbsmw1111 But polymorph is concentration, so it can be dropped independent of time. I don't think I would allow this reading of polymorph, though. Like, I don't think polymorph changes your native plane of existence. It just changes the creature into the shape of something from another plane.

@@johnkneeshaw8008 Only true poly is concentration? Regular one is just for duration. On the other argument - poly explicitly states that it substitutes your entire statblock except for alignment and personality. So for the duration you ARE a space eel and therefore native to other plane. Still, it's probably pretty useless as you can't cut transformation short by giving it a command to drop to 0 HP. The other possible ruling is party being unable to poly into something they have 0 idea about since forementioned space eels are from spelljammer and 99% of beasts ARE native to material plane

@@smbsmw1111 Yeah, you'd need to know of the creature, that is a weakness of this idea unfortunately.

I think that this might be more appropriate as a level 3 spell, 2nd level slots become a cheap commodity. Even at 3rd it should probably have concentration. The lighting vulnerability is pretty easily avoidable. Alternatively, in place of resistance you could instead have the spell give you a large bonus to your AC [+5?] with the bonus only applying to attacks that deal the B/P/S damage types. This makes it so it's harder for attacks to even effect you while in effect. I could see that maybe being a level 3 range-self, [no conc?] spell, or a level 3 range- [touch? or 30'?] w/ concentration spell. . Might want to add "You can't be forcefully moved by effects like forceful winds or creatures 1 or fewer size categories larger than you" given the weight increase. This text would answers the likely question about cheesing the movement penalty by using a regular mount or being grappled by a rogue/monk/tabaxi ally. Notes of nitpicking: 1.) It might be simpler mathematically to go the petrified route and have weight increased by a factor of 10. It would kind of be closer in accuracy too [iron has density of 7.8g to the body's 1.01g per cubic centimeter]. 2.) Coal or an iron bead/ore might be more thematic for the material component given the name [lead is a very soft metal]. 3.) "Range: " is missing from the description. But I figured it would be "self" given the description. text.

@@elliotbryant3459 Lead is a soft metal, sure, but it's still harder to cut than flesh, and it's got a ton of mass density. Makes sense for making a person really heavy and difficult to move, plus resistant (but not immune) to physical damage channels. I'd remove the lightning penalty altogether. It's not like metal is "more vulnerable" to being electrocuted than meat. If anything, metal is less effected. I'd probably also just make this an expensive magical potion you can craft that takes rare components with a built in material cost and prep time (like a week). Spell slots of any level become pretty disposable at higher level, especially when you can get in frequent rests.

There are no rules that allow creatures to willingly fail a saving throw unless it’s specifically stated in the spell or effect.

You still have to evoke the item in order to put the creature back, which involves a Saving Throw as per the rules.

This. Since it is possible to opt into failing a save, I wondered if that would work. It might be argued though, that continously failing this save endangers the creatures life.

As a DM I would not permit you to use a command that references game terms.

There are no rules that allow creatures to willingly fail a saving throw unless it’s specifically stated in the spell or effect.

@@dokidelta1175 I didn't mean 4th wall breaking, dictating game mechanics in-character. But if you command them to enter the flask when you open it, then wouldn't it happen naturally without resistance, aka trying to make a wisdom save? For example, I polymorph another PC and make sure they're willing by saying "Do you trust me? Then don't resist what's about to happen!" There are ways to flavor these things in character.

No

There are no rules that allow creatures to willingly fail a saving throw unless it’s specifically stated in the spell or effect.

I wouldn’t either!! 😦

How does one *travel* to the negative energy plane and not immediately cease to exist? It's an infinite dimension made of nothing but pure energy. It's like the nuclear holocaust dimension. Nukes forever all the time in every direction including inside of you, with infinite power. Who decided something lives there?

@@chrismanuel9768 Oh, that's why the only thing that lives on the NEP are Nightwalkers, which are undead made of negative energy. Most likely whoever traveled there and traded places with it did die instantly unless they were a very high level wizard or something immune to necrotic damage. Which in this case it would have been, for the sake of the plot hook, but they never investigated enough to determine that.

Waiting on the other side of that encounter is a Lich who REALLY wanted to be left alone.

cant fail a saving throw because you want to RAW

a creature can't willingly fail a saving throw unless the save effect's description says it can

Casters.

@@PackTactics examples and what kind of CR should I be thinking off.

failing a saving throw by choice is not RAW

likely to cause death not injured

I see this one a lot. Not in those words is most likely the answer. PCs don't know what a "saving throw" is so no, but they might be able to command it to willingly return to the flask as that still passes the restriction parameters.

There are no rules that allow creatures to willingly fail a saving throw unless it’s specifically stated in the spell or effect.

If you command it to do something which is not likely to cause its death, it follows your command. It only defaults to defending itself in the absence of valid commands.

@@delta3244 Well, in that case, couldn't you just command it to go back in the flask? it would obey, and auto-fail it's saving throw. Also, it could be argued that going back into the flask over and over would eventually result in the creature being put in a fatal situation, and so going back in would likely result in the creatures death, so obeying the "stay still: command no longer becomes a valid command, this allows the creature to defend itself from repeated attempts to make it go back in the flask. The "likely to result" phrase is kind of open to interpretation here - and any command that looks like you are trying to force it back in the flask becomes invalid once it's obvious that's what you are trying to do.

@@bskec2177 Yes, you could just command it to go back in the flask. One could argue that getting into fights over and over again would eventually result in death, but you can command the creature to help you in fights. More to the point, an action with a 10% chance of death is not likely to result in death, but doing 10 of that action is. In spite of this, you could command an attempt of such an action once every six minutes, since each command is not likely to result in death. "any command that looks like you are trying to force it back in the flask becomes invalid once it's obvious that's what you are trying to do." Where in the rules is that said?

@@delta3244 because if you using the creature to fight, going back in the flask is likely to result in death. Therefore any command to go back in the flask become invalid. If you are just bringing the creature out to ask for advice, or help in a non-vombat situation, then going back in the flask isn't dangerous, and maybe it would obey that.

@@bskec2177 Unless the creature has a >50% chance of dying each time you bring it out, that logic reduces to the repeated 10% chance-of-death scenario I outlined.

No. It says visiting creatures must make the save or be trapped. Native creatures don't get a save, sure, but it also doesn't say that anything happens. Presumably, nothing happens to the orc.

RAW it doesn't say what happens to a targeted creature that is native to the current plane. I'd rule that it doesn't have an effect, since it doesn't specify anything happening.

I see your point about rope trick but demiplane is its own plane.

Exactly. I have a fanmade book full of homebrew magic items, and it's great for inspiration but all the items are extremely weak. I'd still use them just 1-2 levels lower than the rarity listed

Question 1- You can give the command, it just doesn't work. Iron Flask does not say a creature can choose to fail the save, so they must roll. Question 2- Nothing preventing it at all.

failing a saving throw by choice is not RAW

There are no rules that allow creatures to willingly fail a saving throw unless it’s specifically stated in the spell or effect.

There are no rules that allow creatures to willingly fail a saving throw unless it’s specifically stated in the spell or effect.

@@adamstadick2044 you make me sad

wrong, check the SAC

@@pandanielxd the what?

failing a saving throw by choice is not RAW

The item doesn't say "the target can choose to fail this save", so no.

You cannot willingly fail a saving throw. You cannot willingly become sick, die, find someone charming, or suffer a magic effect. That's just not how it works. The magic has to succeed.