I regret that my report on the etymology of Maria was somewhat incomplete. BehindTheName.com has a good treatment of the various possibilities: www.behindthename.com/name/mary The Wiktionary entry lists the likelihood that Miryam comes from Aramaci Maryam, which is why I didn't mention Miryam, but I probably should have; I was being glib: en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Mary#Etymology 🦂 Sign up for my Latin Pronunciation & Conversation series on Patreon: www.patreon.com/posts/54058196 📚 Luke Ranieri Audiobooks: luke-ranieri.myshopify.com 🦂 Support my work on Patreon: www.patreon.com/LukeRanieri
"However it was most likely originally an Egyptian name, perhaps derived in part from mry 'beloved' or mr 'love'." Farsi has "mehr", 'love'. (sorry that's in transliteration; I don't know Arabic letters.)
We see Mary as the second Eve (first Eve brought death, second Eve brings life). So that the most common prayer to her should start with a greeting cognate with the Hebrew word for Eve is fitting indeed
@@juanausensi499 given St. Jermone's eriudition (assuming that the source is most certainly the Vulgate) I'd conjecture that it was - that was the dominant Latin consensus on Marian theology since Tertullian [210 AD] and arguably was the Apostolic consensus too (cf. St. Irenaeus)
So “ave” from ave maria actually comes from Phoenician by way of the Carthaginians and it’s related to the Hebrew word “hawwa”. Wow, what a journey. This is why I love this channel. Can’t wait to torment my friends with this one.
@@fallinginthed33p Was just going to make this remark as well, in standard Arabic it's Hawwā, but in my Egyptian dialect it's pronounced the same as the biblical Hebrew Hawah.
Yea there’s no confrontation at all, church pronunciation has just evolved differently from the way the Romana would have spoken it. So it would be wrong in the sense that the Latin language as a whole wouldn’t have been spoken that way. Church pronunciation is different now. But the mans gotta make money somehow. At least the clickbait isn’t sexual.
So the phrase "ave caesar, morituri te salutant" has probably a weak historical foundation? Surprise surprise. Why did I spoil my life with 5 years of latin at school.
There is exactly one source in Latin, Suetonius, Divus Claudius 21, and it's not about a gladiator fight but a naumarchia, a staged sea battle. In some Renaissance editions, Claudius replies "Avete vos", "Hail to you too", but the better manuscripts have "Aut non", "Or maybe not", Claudius being the funny guy.
@@th60of It was a single case, celebratory naumachia staged with convicted prisoners sentenced to death (combining the fights with public executions wasn't uncommon. You got several birds with one stone: the criminals dead, the bloodshed the public wanted, and you didn't waste much more valuable professional gladiators). The actual sentence was probably "ave imperator, morituri te salutant" rather than "ave, Caesar." Claudius replied "Aut non" (possibly out of common courtesy, possibly just a joke) and caused a major tantrums because the convicted interpreted it as an imperial pardon and refused to fight. It took a lot to convince them that there was no pardon and they still had to fight to death.
That feel when exploring why "Ave Maria" might be wrong Latin made you realize how deep it really is and how it actually relates so well with the story of Mary in the Bible
"Ave Maria, cheia de graça, o Senhor é convosco. Bendita sois vós entre as mulheres. Bendito é o fruto do vosso ventre, Jesus. Santa Maria, mãe de Deus, rogai por nós pecadores. Agora e na hora de nossa morte. Amém".
@@timurermolenko2013 They were working on that in the mid 1960's. I was in the US Navy then and stationed in Sicily and served Latin masses when the local English speaking priest wasn't available and an Italian priest would fill in. The Mass of the Vernacular was soon instituted and thee was soon a real revolt. I sort of joined one of the groups because I considered myself a Roman Catholic. Then one could go to any nation in the world and in a Roman Catholic Church the Mass would be in Latin. I might not understand the Sermon but I could participate in the service. Today, I don;t know what the status is but it really opened a can of worms.
@@johnemerson1363 yes, they had so called Council of Vatican II in 60s, where they limited traditional mass and made it more "fun and appealing to a modern man". I'm no catholic, but I like when each church stays true to its tradition. And now they want to get rid of it all together.
@@timurermolenko2013 like your comment. Just to let you know though that the liturgical changes were never fully accepted by lay or clergy. Some bishops too. Thousands of priests left in its aftermath, lay people too. The Modernist bishops, including the pope are working hard to protestantise The Church today. More are standing up and fighting back. Watch this space. Lol
@@martiejude625 yeah, I myself attended a traditional Mass. Before I didn't even know it exists. T h o ugh a recently, the Pope has taken further steps to get rid of it
The connection between Have, Maria and bitter life is really beautiful. I’m just getting into classical Latin, and the historical context of what these words and names mean really create a sense of wonder for the ancient world.
it is interesting that the Biblical "Eve's" name is actually based on the Hebrew word for life. In the original Hebrew her name is Cheva (pronounce the C-H as in Chanukah or Bach) b/c she is the is the mother of "all the living."
The original Hebrew ch isn't the same as the ch in Bach. That is a more recent European and then Israeli innovation. Ch was originally like the Arabic equivalent, which is written in Maltese as Ħ. The original Hebrew vav was also a waw. So Cheva is actually Ħewa. Ħewa is more similar to HAVE /hawe/.
@@NK-vd8xi The Hebrew primer I read said it was like Bach, that is a frequent analogy I've seen many times. As for the shift from waw to vav, if it is true that waw was the original pronunciation, it was a shift that occurred very early in Hebrew history. Certainly by the time of Jesus it had already occurred. it probably occurred sometime after the development of the Greek Septuagint scriptures had already begun. I understand that their are versions of the Septuagint which includes the name of King David spelled (in Greek letters) both Daoud & Dabid. Greeks did not have a letter w/ the vee sound. My guess is the beta was used to approximate the vee sound.
@@VictorLepanto yeah that's a Europeanism (for lack of a better term). Middle Eastern populations maintained the sound, as did Neo-Aramaic and Arabic. The sound you're describing is the same as khaf which wouldn't make sense to have as two separate letters. For vav/waw, there may have been dialects that were tending to /β/ in certain situations (as an allophone) but the sound was maintained by Middle Eastern Jews so it must have become a true "vav" a lot later. Most old Hebrew loans into other languages borrow it as a W sound as opposed to a V.
@@lowenzahn3976 Adamah & Eve (Chevah) are analogized throughout the creation story. The Earth & Eve are treated a typological parallels. The Earth is Mother Earth & Eve is literally called the mother of all the living. A mist is described as rising up from the primeval Earth & the Hebrew word for mist is a rhyme for the Hebrew name of Abel. Abel is supposed to illustrate how man's life like an insubstantial mist. Arising for a brief & quickly vanishing. There are many ways in which the primeval Earth is treated like the mother of all life, both plant & animal & for man as well.
Very informative video. BTW, Maryam, like Samson or Balaam, reflects standard Hebrew which was captured accurately in time in the Septuagint. Some time after the Greek and Latin translations were documented, under certain stress patterns, an -a- vowel shifted to -i-. This explains Balaam (Bal'am) > Bil'am in Masoretic Biblical Hebrew, as well as Maryam > Miryam, Samson (Shamshon) > Shimshon, magdal (Mary Magdalene) > migdal. People often make the assumption this was an innovation in the Greek or Latin or an issue of Aramaic, but indeed it is a simple, regular sound change documented between Late biblical Hebrew and the Masoretic Hebrew we have today. {Gary Rendsburg dates this "corollary to Philippi's Law" ca 400 CE or later!)
ok I made many attempts throughout my years in liceo classico to point out some of these hebrew/semitic loanwords in latin and greek but no-one cared lol - so happy to have found your video! :) thanks for the beautiful linguistic journey
Ave Maria in portuguese: Ave Maria cheia de graça O senhor é convosco Bendita sois vós entre as mulheres E bendito é o fruto do vosso ventre, Jesus. Santa Maria, Mãe de Deus Rogai por nós pecadores Agora e na hora da nossa morte. Amém! Abraços do Brasil! 🇧🇷
I remember a Greek thinking that the “h” in Homer was English people getting it wrong, and similarly the conductor of a choir thinking similarly about the “h” in Hosanna.
This use of _salvē_ as all ‘hello’, ‘goodbye’ and ‘bless you’ when it actually means ‘be well’ is still current in Catalan at least in the Northern Valencian dialect. We say _salut!_ which means ‘health!’ in the very same situations.
A wonderful video, thank you very much!By the way, a big like on the effort to try and pronounce the reconstructed spelling of חוה, the thing is the accent needs to fall on the last syllable(khaw-WA). I don't know if the Punics had the same imperative that we have in Hebrew but if so our imperative form is חיה(pronounced as kha-YE) for the infinitve form לחיות(Likhyot in Modern Hebrew, "to live") maybe this is the word the Romans heard and borrowed.
Mary comes from Hebrew Miriam, though, which means either bitter, sea/water, elevate, as well as other meanings which all appropriately apply to the Virgin Mary in respect to her titles (Our Lady of Sorrows [bitter]< Star of the Sea [water], Queen of Heaven/Theotokos/Mother of God [elevate]). Just shows the beauty and power behind the name
In hebrew "mara(h)" means "bitter", Miryam means "beloved by God", Maryam means "that with the beautiful face", this guy talks about the first word, not about these names nor about their meanings, why?. See ya.
Few Mexican speakers sometimes make this error with placing a "h" where there shouldn't be any. For example, "yo hiba" instead of "yo iba" and "yo lo heche" instead of "yo lo eche". Crazy how we are finding out the true origins of Ave. In Spanish we say "salud" after some body sneezes which means "be well" or "health to you".
Is it a coincidence that you post a video drawing a connection between the Virgin Mary and Eve (something that has been done since the Patristic Age) just on a Marian day? Today is the Feast Day of Our Lady of Mercies! Also, check the Medieval hymn Ave Maris Stella, which makes a word play with their names: "Ave Maris Stella/Dei Mater alma/Atque semper virgo/Felix caeli porta/Sumens illud AVE/Gabrielis ore/Funda nos in pace/Mutans EVAE nomen..."
Oh.. maaaan.. I'm simply flashed. I speak Hebrew and understand Aramaic. When you started your Intro... I already knew where you would (or should) go to... =) I learned latin and koine greek a looooong time ago. What I preserved is the "instinct" for fine nuances of a language and especially its correct pronounciation - I've lerned modern Hebrew in 2 years, speaking it without any accent... though I grew up with Russian and have now German as my mother tongue. I admire the old, ancient languages.... and your extraordinary great work! Keep it on, pleace 🤩
All of those languages have a ton of cognates it seems, especially from Phoenician -- remember, all those nations were right next to each other and traded often
Interesting, here in Brazil we have the expression "auê" which has many uses, among them something like "woohoo!", or even as a "hello". And we use "valeu" as a kind of goodbye.
Ḥawē (stress on the last syllable) can also be used in Mishnaic Hebrew to mean "live!"; however, Ḥayē is the more common way of saying "live!" in Biblical Hebrew. /w/ and /y/ often shift around in Semitic languages... hence, the Jewish way of saying "cheers!" is lechayyim ("to life"), with the Hebrew word's root being identical to the Punic Ḥawē: ḤWY / חוי / 𐤇𐤅𐤉. Great video!
I would say this is less an example of "bad" latin and more a comprehensive explanation of how language evolves over time. You see similar changes with modern languages all the time, including the adoption of foreign words into the lexicon.
As far as I know "Avē" began to be used first by Romans speaking to Emperors and was used commonly as vocative regardless of a puritan view of the origin of the word. Nevertheless: Grammarians 0 - I Living Languages since ancient times hahahaha
"Salve" in Portuguese is also slang, meaning basically "hi", and it's used just like when people say "I wanna give a shout-out to..." Here it's more like "I wanna say 'Hi' to.. "Quero mandar um salve para" (lit. I wanna send a "salve" to...) and then you mention the person's name who is probably watching/listening or maybe present at the show. Interesting how some words have somehow survived after centuries. Great video as always!!
The Latin Vulgate and the Old Latin Manuscripts of the Bible read "Have Gratia Plena" It was fun to find this out because the Lord's prayer in Latin comes from the Vetus Latina (2nd century) and not from the Vulgate (5th century) but the Hail Mary in Latin as a prayer is from the middle ages.
Your comment regarding Maria and the necessity of tonic accentuation reminded me of a sermon of Father António Vieira, where he at one point, and purposely, calls Maria 'Domina Maris'.
Ave (for prayers), Salve! (still used in Portuguese for Hello!, but not as frequently as Ola! or Tudo Bem?), and Vale in Spanish ( for Ok!) or in Portuguese Valeu (past, same meaning).
The ame Mary comes from Coptic just as the names of Moses and Aaron are Coptic, but were assigned Hebrew meamings later. Mary does have a meaning of bitter in the Torah as a pun. The Syrian Christians claimed Mary means "lifted up" claiming the root is rum in Hebrew. This pun seems to be suggested by Luke 1 where Luke speaks of the Mary as a humble handmade that the Lord exalted. But it is an amazing point you make about chavvah, it would mean the salvation has Eve's name in the Ave. Some have pointed out chavvah or chawah can mean or resemble serpent in Arabic/Aramaic which would be fitting too since Eve wasn't named until after she was deceived by the serpent
The Hebrew imperative of the same verb would be חיה (ḥaye) - it's not used much in Hebrew, but in Modern Hebrew there is the phrase חיה ותן לחיות - "live and let live". The regular greeting in Hebrew is of course שלום (shalom - peace) - variants of which can even be found in the Bible - though in Biblical Hebrew we also find other greeting phrases like "God is with you". A nice similar Biblical phrase to the Punic one can actually be found in the Aramaic of the Book of Daniel - we find the king often being greeted with the phrase מלכא לעלמין חיי - "may the king live forever" - pronounced there "ḥayi"
Interesting. It would seem odd to great someone as important as Our Lady with a foreign expression, but I reason it would be akin to how "tchau" (ciao) has become the standard "bye" in Brazilian Portuguese, in a way that it would not be strange to say "tchau" to Our Lady Etymology and language use is an interesting subject! Do more on this topic someday, if you please 😊 thank you Luke
The name "mary" is often linked to the Aramaic for bitter, but the form really doesn't work out (the root for bitter is m-r-r and so cannot explain the yod in the Hebrew, the lack of gemination on the resh, or the second mem, the root m-r-y "to mutiny" solves the first two, but still can't explain the second mem). More likely, it's actually from an Egyptian name; likewise Moses, for which the supposed Semitic etymology given in the Bible is similarly far-fetched). In both cases, there are common elements of Egyptian theophoric names that match the phonetics pretty closely mry/mrj for Maria (seen in feminine names like Meritamen "beloved of Amun", likely pronounced something more like /mVˈɾaːjaʔjaˈmaːnuw/, a close match for Biblical /mir'ja:m/), and msj for Moses (seen in masculine names like Rameses "Ra is born", likely pronounced something more like /ˈɾiːʕaʔ məˈsiːˌsuw/ in Middle Egyptian, a close match to Biblical /mo'ʃe/, especially as Hebrew usually borrows foreign s as /ʃ/, likely reflecting a retracted pronunciation). Whilst undergoing ethnogenesis centred around a new henotheistic religion, the foreign deities' names would have been removed from these progenitors' names to make them more acceptable (for similar processes, cf Ish-Bosheth "man of shame" < Ish-Baal "man of Baal", and Beelzebub "lord of flies" < Ba'al-Zebul "Baal the Lord")
@@ajthebestguy9th you've still got explain the lack of gemination in the resh, and the presence of the yod then, you'd just have swapped the problem of where the second mem comes from with a problem of where the aleph went
This a delicate topic for many people (me included), you didn't say anything about the meaning of the names Miryam "beloved by God" and Maryam "that with the beautiful face", i don't think that anyone would name his/her daughter "mara(h)" meaning "bitter", these meanings are widely accepted and this name can be traced to the egyptians, always meaning something related to love, if all explanations are not in the video, it will make you look a little bit suspiscious, because people can take it in many ways. See ya.
Interesting!! You do a lot on ecclesiastical vs Classical Latin but I’ve always been interested in you discussing Latin in music! Yes, the vast majority of Latin in music is in sacred music and is therefore likely written in and most properly pronounced in Ecclesiastical Latin, but at least as far back as the past century if not much further, there is a wealth of classical choral and other vocal music written in Latin not taken from biblical or ecclesiastical sources! I’ve always been curious to see you look into some of those!
This is almost like bonjour. Bonjour literally means good day, bon meaning good and jour meaning day. However, it is often used as a greeting any time of the day.
Dori me Interimo ayapare, dorime Ameno, ameno Latire, latiremo Dori me Ameno Omenare imperavi ameno Dimere, dimere matiro Matiremo, ameno Omenare imperavi emunari Ameno Omenare imperavi emunari Ameno Ameno dore Ameno dori me Ameno dori me Ameno dom Dori me reo Ameno dori me Ameno dori me Dori me am Ameno Ameno Ameno Omenare imperavi ameno Dimere dimere martiro Martiremo, ameno Omenare imperavi emunari Ameno Omenare imperavi emunari Ameno Ameno dore Ameno dori me Ameno dori me Ameno dom Dori me reo Ameno dori me Ameno dori me Dori me am Ameno, ameno Ameno dori me Ameno dori me Dori me, dori me, dori me... Ameno Ameno dore Ameno dori me Ameno dori me Ameno dom Dori me reo Ameno dori me Ameno dori me Ameno, ameno Ameno Ameno dori me Ameno Ameno dori me Ameno dom Dori me reo, ameno Ameno dori me Ameno, ameno dori me
it's remarkable how in some aspects Latin resembles Italian and in other aspects it's closer to Spanish and yet sometimes all together different , thank you for the detailed information about the origins and the correct pronunciations , when i first saw the word AVERE on the screen i immediately thought you were saying the verb TO HAVE in Italian , definitely a lot of food for thought here man
I was going to write about how the few Hebrew words you use (and yhe effort is appreciated!) have a final accent, not a penultimate one-but i figure with the rage-commenting you're about to get, you can do without. Just glad you're getting back to Hebrew these days!
🇮🇹🧐Latino che ci insegnano a scuola è completamente differente dal Latino parlato dalla gente nell'antichità. La differenza sostanziale era tra la lingua scritta e il modo in cui si pronunciava!!! ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-0LZ2tl0wvCk.html
Great video as always bro Im just wondering where did you learn to pronounce or speak Punic, been interested in it for a while but I've always imagined due to the lack of Punic sources it'd be very difficult to reconstruct/find out about the language
Is there any chance that "Ave Maria" is a form of "long live _______" as we would use in "Viva La Roma", also abbreviated to "W la Roma" (my apologies to Lazio fans)? Regardless, these days I mostly read old italian, starting from Dante and ending around Manzoni, Puccini or Verdi Operas, etc. and I find a lot of words that have changed meaning over the centuries and decades. Since I read in Spanish as well, half the time it's my knowledge of older Italian that helps me understand modern and older Spanish.
If you are the adherents of the classical music, you can recognize that most singers and choirs sing in ecclesiastical Latin. I don't know why. Probably, it is easier than classical Latin to pronounce (Yeah, it seems to be an irony when CLASSICAL music is not sung in CLASSICAL Latin).
I believe it is mostly out of tradition or preference. Tradition because it has solidified as such in Modern times (not saying tradition in the sense of ancient or medieval). Preference, because it sounds beautiful lol I personally prefer the Ecclesiastical pronunciation, though I have no problem with the Classical one.
I guess it's because it's clearly a Christian song and I believe it was composed in the Middle Ages, when the Ecclesiastical pronunciation was the norm.
@@fghsgh The Ecclesiastical Pronunciation was not the norm in the Middle Ages. It varied from place to place. But it did become the norm in Modern Times, hence the rest of your explanation is on point, truly.
Well first of all, the "classical" music we are referring to today is the art music from Europe after 17th century that emerges from both religious music to the expending repertoire of secular music coming from the courts and middle class since that period, which has little to do with "classical" period of Roman Empire. While most religion music nowadays are being sung in ecclesiastical Latin due to the dominance of church music from the catholic institutions all over the Europe, In historical informed performance practice of classical music, they would have sung in Latin regional pronunciation instead of the ecclesiastical Latin (besides Italian repertoire I guess) depends on the origins of the music. As I remember when I was singing in the university choir, we were taught to sing Mozart's requiem by using the Germany regional pronunciation of Latin instead of ecclesiastical Latin. (Although the curious case I discovered is that we should have sung in 18th century Austrian Germany accent instead due to a vowel shift occurred in 19th Century German speaking region...)
Luckily we have another prayer among Marian Antiphons which is "Salve Regina", at least that one is "safe" 😂BTW In Italy the prayer is still "Ave Maria" even though in our language we don't use the word "ave" any more, I have always wondered why (in Spanish they translated "Dios te salve, María" which makes a lot more sense).
You should try reacting to the latin in Fallout: New Vegas, considering I don’t think they’re actually meant to be very good at it it’d be interesting to see what you think of it, especially comparing members of the Legion’s Latin compared to Arcade’s (a character not an actual arcade) who I believe should know it better
Actually the name Hawa doesn't appear in the Quran. Not sure if it appears in the Hadith but it could be a later loan from Hebrew like the name Zuleikha.
Speaking of accents Luke, as a Brit I have to say you do speak with something of an English accent... you pronounce the letter t as we do... very rare in the US. Also your spoken cadences are spoken in the Brit way.
OK, Luke, so is “have” related to the ancient hailing word “evohe” a word of “ancient Bacchic frenzy”? and another question you were discussing the root of the name Maria in the Latin for “ bitter” that also must be related to quote Amara” in Italian, also meaning bitter
Thanks! Really interesting! Catullus in Carmen 101 says: accipe fraterno multum manantia fletu, atque in perpetuum, frater, ave atque vale. But Martial (3.95) teases someone for not saying “have.” Numquam dicis have sed reddis, Naevole, semper, quod prior et corvus dicere saepe solet. …… Iam iam tu prior es, Naevole, vincis: have. Is it possible that in Catullus’ time AVE was common and later HAVE was considered correct? Or were both used at the same time? Perhaps a regional difference?
I'm from Durham city and I was grinning all the way through this! Of course, it's true. When outsiders are not around we all talk to each other in Latin.
Hi, Luke. Why does English have 2 versions of the name Eve, Eve and Eva? Also do you have videos on the etymology of names, like Eve or Gabriel or Luke?
Fascinating video, as always. Thank you! Now: Schubert wrote that song in German, not in Latin (be it ecclesiastical or classic). In fact, it's a German translation by A. Storck of a poem by Sir Walter Scott contained in his novel "The Lady of the Lake" and it is in no way intended for religious purposes. So I wonder: should those first two words, which indeed open each of the three strophes, be pronounced in whatever way Latin was pronounced in Austria during the early 19th century?
The original melody was Gregorian Chant. Later, other composers set it to their melody. It is a very popular hymn and still sung in churches, so the modern pronunciation (ie: Italian pronunciation) would be used.
@@nicofp7839 If you are referring to Schubert's all-so-popular melody, the tune briefly sung by Luke with his beautiful voice at the beginning of the video, I'm sorry but no: it's not a Gregorian melody. It was written by Franz Schubert in 1825, it is firmly rooted in XVIII century classical homophonic harmony and has very little to do with the modal monody of a Gregorian hymn. There are of course several beautiful examples of Gregorian settings of the liturgical text. Let me share the most famous of them which, as you may see, has little to do with Schubert's. In fact, it precedes it by almost a thousand years!: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-jMkMEaPplhE.html
@@LauraTenora That is exactly what I wanted to say. I know it was written in German. Later, the Latin was set to the melody. Many composers set the Ave Maria to music. I do like the simplicity of the Gregorian chant. Thank you for the background information and the link. Stay well.
I learnt something new! It's interesting that OLD as well states the lemma as "auē" or "hauē" .. always with the "ē". Other than that, it agrees with what you say completely... (though I don't doubt Quintilian had it right!)
