Is carbon fiber worth it? Arete Supercar project. 

Comment warrior's "carbon fibre" debate shut down of the century! Quite possibly the most informative and detailed answer to a question ever uploaded to youtube.

this gentleman is a legend. we should systematically bug him about more things just to generate more wonderful and informative videos like this. the thought and time that went into what seems to be just a response to comments is staggering.

I love the methodical way you explain the engineering science behind this build and the rationale for your choice of materials 🙂

I love how this shows that you are not aiming to a luxury device, but to a damn good car.

That was really good. Trade offs are always present, but your example was impressive to help us understand the development of the car body.

Jarvie, your patience and intelligence to explain a complicated concept in a simple way is memorable. but ... you as always bring us great answers. great job.

Loving this explanation. Thanks.

Got there in the end * fibre glass is by far cheaper than carbon fibre lol👍🏼

Amazing level of detail . Love the work

Very well done. As a mechanical engineer, i knew of the trade-offs of the various materials, but i had no idea _how much_ more expensive carbon fiber would end up, nor had i seen such a through head to head comparison. It's also worth mentioning that carbon fiber is conductive (good and bad thing, eg galvanic corrosion) and so abrasive at it's free ends that fasteners need to be rethought to handle that. (Eg carbon fiber wheels are super cool, but not if you ignored that problem and the carbon fiber slowly cuts into your studs and suddenly sends your wheel off on it's own merry adventure)

Thanks for sharing your analysis of the differences of materials and thicknesses. This was so informative for someone looking to get into making composites.

Very well explained. I seem to have the same problem when explaining this to people regarding my project, but I'll just send them your video, as it would save me a lot of time. ;)

this is what youtube should be about. I wish there was more channels liken this. I cant express my gratitute sir

Thanks! This was a question I thought I knew the answer to and it looks like my assumptions were pretty close. Love the build and the info you share fills in the gaps a lot of other YT channels skip over.

Finding this video while researching for my own car project, as well as just having finished a material science course in industrial design is REALLY REALLY satisfying!!! Awesome video

One thing you can do with composites that people often overlook is just scrap an entire layer of fiberglass on your large panels and do what car companies have been doing for decades on hoods, trunks, and other large, flat panels that can't adequately support their own form: bond a skeletonized reinforcing structure to the bottom. Build this structure out of whatever you like, be it carbon fiber, fiberglass, or even aluminum. Doesn't matter terribly much, but you want to have a flanged U-section for the cross-sectional view, because this offers the best compromise between the number and size of supporting sections beneath the panel. Then you just use panel bond to stick it into place. If you've got the willingness to make quite a few more molds, you could do this for any and every large panel on your car, though it often becomes overly complicated for fenders and quarter panels to ensure that your supports don't impact panel fitment to and sub-structures in the car that the panels need to bond to. Another option is a sandwiched construction like you see for large sheets of structural carbon fiber, where the outer carbon panels are bonded to an aluminum or titanium honeycomb material to increase structural rigidity further and prevent panel flex. You see this sometimes when people decide to flex and use carbon fiber for the underbody aero control on their cars, since you can get a flat bottom for your car that adds very little weight and can also be a structural member for the car and even help keep the lower edges of body panels very firmly supported.

This vid is by far the best when comparing carbon fibre and fibre glass. We all get to see the test done. Very educational.

VERY informative video!

I love it when things are broken down Barney style for us smaller brained people. Thank you.

Awesome, i learn something today thanks 👍

I love this car build

Batt Low never underestimate the ability for low batteries to cause wonkiness!

thank you for the time spent to put this together - personally - i just like the way that carbon looks - outside of that - do as you do best - and i will continue to watch you

Pretty much nailed that across the board. I've had this conversation many a time to the event that it's just easier to point them towards certain materials engineering videos, but they still don't accept it. At that point, it's time to move along to more important ventures. =) In automotive history, Overweighting has also been called "Shelby the sh!t out of it" (power priority over less weight) and "Just Enzo it" (more engine, less aero work).

Thankyou VERY much for this video, you are a great, fair and honest teacher. Learned quite alot👍👍

Another great video, you make these very easy to understand.

Great episode !!!

Perfect explained in every context!

Very good in-depth video. thanks for all the info

your a grate mind and you will be immortalized for this,thank you for your grate work and hope to see it for many years to come

That's the best layman's guide to material I have seen to date. I'm old, so I have seen more than I should have lol.

Excellent explanation! I learned a lot and the world doesn't need an overpriced driveway ornament. Keep up the good work!

Why don't you just spin your own carbon fibers and weave your own fabric? I'm kidding of course, this video was extremely thorough and informative!

Jay Jarvie the Science Guy! Love this video, learned something new.

Great episode Jay! Nice alternative to the E&N (ego & narcissism) supercar production model!

I am making a body kit for my car (videos on my channel). I decided to go with the following: - epoxy resin (because I live in a hot climate, it will holdup better than polyester resin) - carbon fiber (because it will flex a lot more before breaking, compared to fiberglass) - Kevlar (outer layer of Kevlar to protect against rock chips and other road debris) epoxy (generally only used with carbon fiber & Kevlar, sometimes fiberglass cloth) polyester (pretty much only used with fiberglass, as the polyester resin has a chemical that breaks down binders in fiberglass) Over the past 3 years I've had a lot of exposure to fiberglass (cloth & CSM) with polyester resin. The final product is easily 3x heavier, and uses a lot more material to make (hence its heavy-ness), this also translates to minimal cost savings over carbon fiber (maybe 2/3 cheaper). in my experience, epoxy resin holds up a lot better to high temperatures (120+ F) over polyester resin. Polyester resin is brittle like glass, and will shatter when impacted. Epoxy resin is semi flexible. Epoxy tolerates high temperatures better than polyester. If polyester resin is exposed to high temperatures for extended amounts of time (maybe a few years) it will warp, epoxy resin will not. Kind of how i look at it.. Epoxy resin will out last human civilization in a land fill, polyester will not. So, if your going to make something that you want to last for many many many years, make it with epoxy. 😉

Very cool dude 💪🏾 your content is inspiring and I learn a lot from listening and seeing how u put the car together. Keep up the good work

Thanks for making this video!

What a great informative video Also like the snipe towards the end of the vid

Entertaining and educating ! Love your videos!

Brilliantly explained, thank you

Love your explanation. When I lived in Japan I designed, sculpted, and fabricated many custom body kits. Full on fender, bumper, and rear quarter replacement body kits for custom fiends like me. Rarely did we get someone who could afford Carbon Fiber. Only twice. I miss those days. 🥹

very helpfull thank you

Excellent.

very great video as always

Fantastic video as usual!!

Excellent!

As always awesome I love this project

Fantastic. That's a nice job. Greetings from Brazil.

This video was a lot of work i'm sure. Thanks so much for taking the time to do these experiments

Very interesting vid mate!!

thank you!!! this was one of the best explanations on anything... ultimately you boiled this down to "keep it simple, stupid"

Thank you for the master class

Awesomely done 👍🏾😎😊

Underrated channel.

Great video!

Excellent Visio- now I know - thanks.

Fantastic design and fabrication!!

Excellent video! Most people don't realize even in the top GT3 race classes carbon fiber isn't needed. Also you answer why there isn't a market for 1.3M dollar gt privateer race cars. Imagine your spare parts package cost going from 500k to 1.5M just cause carbon fiber.

So informative!

I agree in all areas I have used all of these in the makes of boat and car plugs, molts and parts, the carbon world is for very expensive items. However like on the keel of a powerboat i would often lay chop, weave, ten thick carbon 1 inch wide into the center line of the keel. That stops the flex in the overall boat length and removes the need to form a wooden rib in the keel tunnel to run the length, and under stress there is no delamination under high tension and speed. Excellent video.

wow like the video, i like how you explain the differences of the materials , and i like the way you say in one sentence how economy works . Gues the 21 dislikes are the ones off that 1 sentence

Flax fiber seems like a great option

Every day is a school day, thank you.

damn strong. love this. as all the others :D regards from brasil.

I think another point you could make is that any damage to CFRP tends to be much more catastrophic than with fiberglass composites, mostly due to the added stiffness. You discussed this tangentially, and I'm sure you're very aware of it, but any repairs to carbon fiber are awful and often you have to just remake the part (and repairing means you lose the weight advantage). Glass fiber is far more forgiving, so if this body is damaged it can still be repaired, at least possibly. Carbon fiber is great if you really don't care about money.

Nice tests.

Thanks

Exelent video, very clear. I would love to see in the future the explanation when you use carbon fiber, or kevlar, to explain why you choose to use it in that instance. Cheers, thx for the vid.

Don't you ever question the car God the old wizard knows his work great job man

Great comparisons. Not only do you have to overcome additional weight in acceleration but also in deceleration so brake upgrades would be desirable.

Now I am reading the book ' structure or why the things don't fall down ' by J E Gordon. A very interesting video for me at this moment.

Hi, great video! I was wondering wat the distance is between the 2 point between the sheets are bend between. 100mm?

Also, a cars person wants to drive his kit car. And when you race stuff gets damaged. Fiberglass is more resistant to damage and it is easier to patch up.

And having the moulds you can at a later date go back and remake things like doors hood fenders and other Small parts out of carbon fibre after the car is tested to get weight loss and strength in the right places. Not to mention a one-off car would then have spare panels and parts with power to weight gains left on the table

You sound like Dr Shultz in Django it’s amazing ahaha and it looks great btw!

Great Great Clip 😊👍🏼 Greatings from Germany

That really lightweight E-glass seems like an excellent choice for body panels that don't need to offer structural support, since they would resist damage from slight impacts a lot better than carbon fiber. The challenging thing about kevlar that I've learned from people trying to turn it into bullet-proof tiles or plates with resin, is that once you've bound the fibers into a matrix with resin, it loses a LOT of the energy dissipative properties because the fibers can no longer deform plastically and are instead forced into deforming through shear forces. So while a kevlar reinforced resin panel will likely still remain in one piece after taking an impact, it isn't quite as true to the characteristics of the base material. This is a wild demonstration, though. I hadn't expected the single layer of 4oz E-glass to remain so pliable while also still holding its shape when not under load. Probably has to do with the inherent ductility of the resin used, but it's pretty impressive. I haven't finished watching yet, but I hope you go into how molding composite materials for strength is quite similar to stamping sheet metal parts, for instance, the unibody construction of cars.

Given the figures you have presented I wouldn't build in carbon fibre. I agree there are many more useful ways to spend the difference in cost. Knowing me as I do I wouldn't spend the money on carbon fibre even if I had the money to spend on it. I think there is a price we need to put on a project no matter how important and interesting it is. Each part is important but not so important that it gets to dominate the whole budget. 😊

Amazing video clears it up perfectly, i was one of those wondering :D now i know! What about fire resistance though ;). Fair bit more cost as you said improve the engine and handling instead for less than half the sum.

How fast do you want to go, how much do you want to spend.

I'm massively anxious to see a similar treatment on how the shape and geometry of a structure affects (or effects) the stiffness/strength of a structure.

Nice

It would have been nice to see you test an 18 oz stitch e glass against three layers of 6 oz woven. You found you pick up 20% on the multi layers, but they say that you pick up 20% on the stitched cloth. Having said that this is the Best composite video that I have seen. And a nice included philosophical interlude.

From building body components, engine components and structural components... I find that on my projects carbon fiber is really only cost effective for engine components. Structural components end up heavier with glass but for a street vehicle I haven't seen where it would be a detriment. Interior components for the cockpit are always fine in carbon in my opinion as one layer will be enough with a good design and will retain the look. I tend to use a Kevlar glass mixed weave for bumper and inner fender body parts. Hell I use chopped mat for some large flat parts because it is extremely cheap to get in my area and is "strong" enough

Can you do a video in detail about the layups that you used and why? I’ve been curious about how many layers that you need

you are the best

very elighting

I have a boat where they used Kevlar for strength/protection. But only in certain places. As this is a car not a truck, probably not needed. ;)

Impressive, let me know some comparison in terms of cost estimation and properties of kevlar carbon and glass if you have your working on their hybridization!

I never knew it's called a 'frp' I didn't know it's classed is a plastic. Very cool to know.

Great explanation, but you haven't answered the most important question: what color will it be?

That was an astounding amount of work you prepared and analysed. Thank you. Do you think experiments in fibre glass for developing a product would give you any indication of fibre layer layup behaviour, given the basic mechanism (fibres / orientation / set resin) are the same? For experimenting I would prefer the cheapest option for mistakes and learning, and then do the final product in CF for aesthetics and its properties. Also: I have looked quite extensively and am struggling to find information on layup and fibre orientation and its impact on final product properties. Do you have any suggestions on books or papers? Thanks.

Good stuff, thanks for sharing this info and explanation! I would have liked to see the thicknesses of each sample and some discussion of how that plays into the results. In other words, since stiffness increases exponentially with an increase in thickness, maybe differences in thickness had a greater effect than differences in weight. Similarly for the sample comparing 2 layers vs 3 layers with same total weight of fabric: Is it strictly that more layers is thicker (due to less compaction of the fibers and more resin between the layers)? Or are there other factors at play that made the difference in stiffness?

great video and very informative as well. how many layers, and of what material, would you suggest to make a hood on an average car to make it lighter?

Two single layers of any material with honeycomb in between changes everything and an example through your test would be interesting.

how did you have that testing rig and all the sample? I learned something thanks!

So Kevlar and e-glass? can you shoot out quick numbers on full kevlar to compare?

the video is very informative. a small suggestion: revise the text you add before publishing. There is quite a few spelling mistakes / typos.

I always thought that the greatest advantage of kevlar was how it responds to overload compared ot say carbon?