some thoughts while listening... You don't need to be a member of a specific church to know who is faithful. I can tell you things about friends and family and neighbors because I spend time with them. Nowhere do I have a roster of the people I interact with. No MEMBERSHIP of friends, but I can write a letter to tell you who is faithful. Putting somebody "out of the congregation" doesn't have to mean anything about a building or membership. I can tell somebody to leave my house without them being a member of my house. And the word "congregation" doesn't mean members of a church. It just means a group of people. You are 100% adding your pre-conceived ideas into what the bible says based on Catholic principles, not new testament principles. The structure, the building, the authority, all made up by Catholics, and protestants kept those man-made ideas with them as they broke away. Pre-Catholicism, first century Christians, gave us an example of what "church" should look like. It's in 1 Corinthians 14:26. Everybody participates, not just the "pastor" and some "lay readers". Whenever you come together, each of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification. How will a congregation of even 50 meet that standard? You'd be there all week listening to everybody. You're automatically part of GOD'S church as soon as you repent and believe. You ARE the church - WE are the church. No building. No "membership". Focus is on unity and love towards each other. That's what Jesus said will distinguish us from others.
Thank you and God bless you for your "straight truth" comments. The passive audience/pastor sophist dominated religious organization masquerades as the Church. The Church gathering structure of Biblical worship is shown in 1 Cor. 14: 26-31. Nothing in those verses or anywhere in the Bible about passively listening to a speech by a professional orator and singing and saying amen on cue as worship. Nothing in the Bible about becoming a "member". Roman Catholicism and her Protestant daughters have misled the world for centuries by calling the Church a building, going to Church to worship and making up a clergy/laity distinction in the Church.
The Church is the body of Christ and requires no building. The church building is an innovation of Rome when it co-opted Christianity and made the whore of Babylon called the Roman Catholic Church. Just imagine the huge amount of money that is wasted on "church" bulidings and their maintenance being used to help the poor women seeking abortions and poor people in general. The early Church had no buildings and met in homes. That should be done today because that is the Biblical Church. No need for a paid priest/pastor lord it over the Church gathering. Just imagine all the money that could go to help the poor if priests/pastors stop getting paid for doing a job that is unBiblical and go to work like honest people.
Why are you paid when you work for a company? So don’t they have family to take are ? Jesus was supported financially by group of women. I can check and write you here. Paul also talked about that. Be practical and have a rational mind. If not how can they take care of their family?
Not true at all. How else better are God's people going to lay up treasure in Heaven as Jesus commanded than by seizing the opportunity, by obeying the LORD in supporting the very men God called out to do His eternal Gospel work? (Matthew 6:19-21; 9:35-38). Christ's apostle Paul cearly took support. Read Philippians 2:25 and 4:18, etc. The apostle makes the overwhelming case for supporting the God-called out elders of Christ - and they are known by teaching the WORD itself, feeding and equipping Christ's flock to do His work - not just making country club "church members" out of them for the self-serving agenda of those greedy wolves (John 21:15-17; Ephesians 4:11-12; 1 Peter 5:1-6; 2 Peter 2:1-3). Now read 1 Corinthians 9:1-14; 1 Tim 5:17-18, etc. The levitical priesthood represented what today is called out full time ministry. They received the tithe of the other 11 tribes. The problem is not compensation for those who do the infinitely most important work on the earth, the problem is charlatans who over embellish themselves. Elders who labor, who at feeding the flock of God, studying and teaching God's Word, are to be "though worthy of double honour" which simply means twice the average pay in the economy they are in. Today in America, that would be approxominately $80k per year, being that the average person in America earns about $40k yearly. The simple fact that Jesus ordained, chose out a treasurer, clearly demonstrates that Jesus took love offerings, allowed them. Did Jesus reject the offering of the loaves and fishes in John 6? No. Jesus Himself would never cheat someone out of a blessing by not allowing them to give freely. Jesus says "It is more blessed to give than to receive." (Acts 20:35) "And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house." Luke 10:7 Specifically speaking of called-out Gospel labourers, Jesus says "the labourer is worthy of his hire." Holding back from, not supporting the labourers of Christ is sin, it's "fraud." "Behold, the hire of the labourers who have reaped down your fields, which is of you kept back by fraud, crieth: and the cries of them which have reaped are entered into the ears of the Lord of sabaoth." James 5:4
@@chirho7 Taking those things seriously is fine and they should be taken seriously but denying someone communion based on being members of a local church instead of being based on the person being members of God's family I believe is wrong.
@@irdiverdan absolutely I think it's wrong to deny communion to somebody who claims to be a Christian. We should focus on unity - with unity being extremely important based on new testament principles. Membership based communion is a very large divide. It's like saying you're not REALLY a Christian until you become a member of our church. Or at least not "good enough" unless you're part of OUR church.
I agree.. to deny one believer while giving the Lords supper to another believer who is a member is to say.. Here you take the good seat while you tell the poor person stand over here or sit by my feet. Have you not made distinctions? The speaker is addressing the issues, but he then assumes they are carrying those things out biblically just because they use the same lingo
Churches are automatically exempt, and not required to file for a 501(c)3. When they do this, they are incorporating with the US government, and accepting a gag in the process. So dumb.
Hebrews 13:17 says, ““Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.” We see three things in this passage that supports church membership : 1. The passage assumes that every Christian is expected to be in submission to church leaders. 2. The passage assumes that every leader is going to give (to God) an account for how they watched over the souls of the people under him. 3. There is a mutual understanding as to know who are the leaders any given Christian is to submit to and who are the sheep that church leaders are going to have to give an account for. Thus, with these three assumptions, we can infer that there needs to be at minimum a conversation between church leaders and potential members. That discussion must answer two questions: 1. Who are the leaders going to be who will give this account to God? 2. Who are the sheep that are going to submit to their leaders? Membership classes are designed to settle those matters. In other words every Christian should be under leaders…who are those leaders going to be? Every leaders needs to have sheep to account for…who are those sheep going to be.
Hebrews 13:17 is slightly different in the Greek. The English translation doesn't fully convey the entirety of the meaning. “Peithesthe tois hēgoumenois hymōn kai hypeikete” “BE-YE-BEING-PERSUADED to-THE ones-LEADING OF-YOU(p) AND BE-YE-UNDER-SIMULATING” A decent translation is: "Allow yourselves to be persuaded by the (ones) who (have led? do lead?) and follow their example"
@@lucasolson9132 Don’t go trying to snow me with the Greek. Here are 13 different translations and they all agree! “Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you.” (Hebrews 13:17 NASB95) “Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.”(Hebrews 13:17 ESV) “Obey your leaders and submit to them-for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account-so that they will do this with joy and not with groaning, for this would be unprofitable for you.” (Hebrews 13:17 LSB) “Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they watch on behalf of your souls, as those who will give account, that they may do this with joy, and not with groaning, for that would be unprofitable for you.” (Hebrews 13:17 WEB) “Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.” (Hebrews 13:17 KJV) “Obey your spiritual leaders, and do what they say. Their work is to watch over your souls, and they are accountable to God. Give them reason to do this with joy and not with sorrow. That would certainly not be for your benefit.” (Hebrews 13:17 NLT-SE) “Give ear to those who are rulers over you, and do as they say: for they keep watch over your souls, ready to give an account of them; let them be able to do this with joy and not with grief, because that would be of no profit to you.” (Hebrews 13:17 BBE) “Obey your leaders and be submissive to them. For they are keeping watch over your souls as those who will have to give account; that they may do this with joy and not with lamentation. For that would be of no advantage to you.” (Hebrews 13:17 WEYMTH) “Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account, so that they can do this with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you.” (Hebrews 13:17 HCSB) “Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.” (Hebrews 13:17 WEBSTR) “Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you.” (Hebrews 13:17 NIV) “Obeye the that have the oversight of you and submit youre selves to them for they watch for youre soules even as they that must geve a comptes: that they maye do it with ioye and not with grefe. For that is an vnproffitable thynge for you.” (Hebrews 13:17 TYNDALE) “Obey your leaders, and be submissive; for they watch over your souls as those that shall give account; that they may do this with joy, and not groaning, for this [would be] unprofitable for you.” (Hebrews 13:17 DRBY) “Be obedient to those leading you, and be subject, for these do watch for your souls, as about to give account, that with joy they may do this, and not sighing, for this [is] unprofitable to you.” (Hebrews 13:17 YNG)
@@Provision463 Yes, I did. I gave the text in Greek for Hebrews 13:17 in Greek and a rough translation of the text along with what I believe is a solid interpretation in English.
When we become Christians we automatically become members of God's Church. The membership in particular local church helps us as a supportive tool to keep us staying in God's Church
There's no such thing as a local church membership. You can have a local church without a church membership. The problem is, the false prophets and crooks are challenged with managing your money if you dont commit to their so-called "Church". "MEMBERSHIP" is totally unscriptural, and is an American man-made concept, just as "Tithing" for New Covenant disciples of Christ is unscriptural. It's a multi- billion dollar industry that require a pastor to attend seminary making preaching and teaching the Living Word of Yahweh a business and career opportunity opposed to Yahweh God calling and qualifying the prophet for the Masters use. American Christianity is blasphemy.
Thanks for sharing. In all my years of going to church I have not ever seen anyone get out out of the church....in all 40 years. I hope to never see that happen.
This dude is reading a few words of a few sentences, taking them out of context and using conjecture to create something that's not necessarily there! It's a far stretch at best!
Only God knows what is going on in any one person. Signing a membership book will not garentee anything about someone. Just like someone who says they are saved through grace, through faith in Christ alone (only God can know this). What about the feeing of division membership can cause in the Chruch (a them and us situation). What about the feeling of exclusion one might feel and then feel 'pressured' (by themselves) into becoming a member. To me (at the moment) it seems like its can have and thoes that cant have (becuase of a signiture in a book and for some, having to stand up in church and confess their loyalty, also it might having to comit to taking lessions and them to feel pressured to give a certain amount of money (weekly or annually). It all seems very ligalistic.
It is better to be a member of a church as an individual or family. Lot of changes happened in membership matter. Rules are already there. We have to be truthful to God. One thing is to be modified in church, membership and contribution should be separate. Membership is permanent life டைம்.
What if someone is born again, biblically baptized by immersion, but not a formal member of any local church, however they attend church regularly. Could they partake in the Lord's supper?
Yes, who else is a higher authority than the Most High who saved you into His church/family? You are a member of the one universal blood bought, born again body of Christ. Any other "membership", so-called "church membership" is a fraud and an afront to Christ. He didn't die and rise again to then hand over the reigns to a bunch of self-serving enterprising, greedy pharisaical nicolaitan wolves. Read Jeremiah 23; Ezekiel 34; Matthew 23; 2 Peter 2:; Revelation 2:6, 15).
Membership to a church is a religious spirit. As kingdom people we are citizens of the most high God s kingdom. Membership is to denominations are at times cultic in their behavior
“Is there evidence in the Bible for church membership”. This is the wrong question. Any instruction from a place of presumed authority over believers must use a command from scripture, not “evidence” that suggests or excuses it. Your evidence is circumstantial at best. Pay close attention to the way a pastor uses the two different definitions of “member” interchangeably. He is suggesting, rather insisting that because the translations take the Greek EKLESSIA and render it “churcheS” that there are definable congregations in Galatia that Paul is referring to. Even if this were the case it does not justify forms church covenants and legal documents that people are forced to sign in order to properly experience the fellowship. And let’s be clear, that’s what a pastor is really talking about when he talks of church membership. Paul himself is writing letters of recommendation for the men selected to carry the gift. He is writing the letters for Jerusalem. Then this pastor makes up a whole idea of “letters of character”. That’s nonsense. He is reading his worldview into the text. In 3rd John there was a man who was not receiving JOHN. John was not a member of their congregation! For all we know diatrophes WAS the local pastor 😂 “If you don’t know who’s IN and who’s OUT.” Open your eyes, pastor. You are a servant. Open your eyes. Are there people in front of you? Serve them. Care for them. Protect them. You protect yourself with legal documents that bind people to serving you and giving to you. The Shepherd is coming and He will save His people from the wicked shepherds. Just as He saved Noah from the flood which destroyed all of the enemies of God.
Here is your command. Who are your spiritual leaders that you are supposed to be obeying. In other words, God expects you to have spiritual leaders that you’re to be obeying. I highly suspect that the reason you don’t like Hebrews 13:17, is because you are a Law unto yourself. You don’t WANT anybody telling you what to do, so you come up with all these non-sequiturs (look it up). “OBEY your leaders and SUBMIT to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you.” (Hebrews 13:17 NAS95)
Should you not be allowed church membership if you work at a casino? But spend eighty percent of your time in ministry. I do attend church have since 2005.
He just contradicted himself.....He said there are the doctrines of what qualifies you to be a Christian but there are also other doctrines that qualifies you to be a member of his church, However, if his church was the only church around and I refused to believe the 5 points of Calvanism, then I cant be a member of his chuch. Iif I am not a member of my local body,, then I am not saved..... what contradiction is that???? So it is more important that you believe all their doctrine verse being left out of their fellowship because we are not in agreement....This whole conversation is ridiculous
he said " all of the concepts today are identifiable in the New Testament" but then only mentions the elders and deacons......so how is name of elder and deacon considered all of the concepts of today's church in the New testament? He is very loss with words and things that simply because they had elders and deacons, all else was the same we have today...Ridiculous!!!
This is just Eisegesis to the highest degree. You cannot deduce or Exegete formal church membership from the text. 1 cor 12 speaks of a spiritual membership one to another , thats why if one member suffers all suffer. The eye cannot say to the foot I have no need of thee. Membership is between eachother spiritually , not to the church . Identifying with the local church is simply by the converted life and professing commitment to a local church You must tell the truth in the text . Formal church membership is so the church can be an institution and have a relationship to the government so they can do these 4 things. 1. Purchase land or a church building 2 employ staff 3. Become an entity for insurance purposes for both the staff and the church. 4 . An easier and formal way to enact church discipline in a public church. The human heart is very, very deceptive so let's not kid ourselves of what is the true intentions of formal church membership . Blessings Steve from Australia
There as no one in the new testament required to submit themselves to the leadership of a church as we have today. you are highly confused and speaking loosely with words. You have proven nothing with scripture other than elders and deacons and their qualifications. Where is the ALL other things in scripture that we have today? you only mention the leadership. where is the rest? There is none
