Matt Chandler, Josh Patterson and Jasien Swords sit down to have a conversation about church membership, including the Scriptural precedent for local church membership and our process of Covenant Membership at The Village.
Great Video, smart articulate guys with hearts for God. One thing I am a little surprised by is that Village Church took the time to post this informative video but not follow up on the comments as outreach. These commenters are people curious about the village church why not interact through comments. Surely there is somebody in the church with the gift of answering these folks.
Membership question... Question about membership at church. I believe everything you mention on this video. I volunteer, always spreading good news on my own or with few people during my errands for 20 years, tithe to one church, support missions, involved in weekly church sermons & bible study, always helping out where needed, visit senior care home & greet people, volunteer children ministry, , etc....etc...I love doing all these. How can anybody not participate when we claim we are Christians? It is God’s Holy Spirit helping me and I can’t deny His presence always leading me to do His work. I give credited all these to God. He said in below verse to love Him first. When we do this first I see all things will take into its action. I can’t deny this. Before 20 years ago I had no desire to do any above as growing up as a Christian. I didn’t love God first back then...Wow! God woke me up! Matthew 22:37-40 "And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.” So my question ...Why does church have to have paper sign as a member? I haven’t found anything about this in the Bible and I’m still looking. I feel many Christians are doing what I do without signing the document and that means we are part of body of temple to do His Ministries so I do understand all completely. Also does this mean if we don’t sign paper we aren’t part of body of temple? Pastors, please lmk if there is anywhere about sign a document to become a member of a church. With a word of mouth I can always be trusted to do His work....ty ahead...God bless you...🙏🏽🙏🏽🙂
1 Peter 5:2-3 Speaks to the elders not to subdue people to their oversight but to exercise oversight over those who are allotted to them. Hebrews 13:17 and 1 Thessalonians 5:12-13 tell the believer to subject themselves to the church leaders. This means the leaders over you has the authority to direct you in obedience to God's word. The word makes clear the leader cannot make themselves the leader over you, that must be a commitment that comes from the believer to subject themselves. It also says that the church can't compel the leader to lead them either for they must not lead under compulsion but willingly. There needs to be a mutual commitment from both parties. Naturally it is the leader who decides how that mutual commitment is acknowledge, either through a spoken commitment or a signed document. Written records are not an unbiblical thing. In Acts 2:41-47 they count those who have been baptized and are committing themselves to the apostles teaching, the fellowship of the church, and so on. We also see in 1 Timothy 5 that they keep a written list where they add a widow to their number of widows in whom they serve. Whether you sign a document or not all comes down to the leadership of the church that you have subjected yourself to. We are to obey our leaders in love as they do their best to shepherd us according to the principles and commands of God's word. Application of God's commands can take many different forms. That's why the unity of the church depends on the submission to church authorities. Eph 4:11-16 have to do with the shepherd and teachers equipping the church so that they can be unified, working together to grow up in spiritual maturity. I know this is 2 years late, but hopefully it helps you in present time to think more biblically about matters of church leadership. God bless.
These are good questions and observations. You are correct that the Bible doesn't say you have to sign a contract and 30 seconds in the video above, Matt Chandler admits it's just not there. Part of the problem throughout history is that religious leaders have frequently had to deal with non Christians who were unruly. Moses had lots of non Christian Israelites and they made a covenant agreement with God to obey certain rules. God picked Moses to lead as God was the King and there were consequences for disobedient people. Many centuries later, John Calvin in Geneva had to find ways to govern the saved and the lost and I believe everyone was expected to attend church, so he had unruly men in church. Calvin was a Roman Catholic who was trained as a lawyer by the Catholics, so when he left the Catholics as a protestant, he brought many ideas about government and controlling the people with him and of course he used covenant contracts and church vows. Vows are to the Lord only ... kind of playing off the covenant Moses brought to the nation state of Israel. Baptists are not protestants because they didn't come out of the Catholic church "protesting". In modern churches, you will see most are 501c3 under the limited control of the STATE which requires them to use Roberts Rules of Order which was designed to deal with unruly men in an orderly way. It all kind of leaves a bad taste in my mouth and grieves my Spirit because we are in fact "new creatures" who shouldn't need contracts and "rules of order" to keep us in check. The Bible tells us what to think and do and how to deal with those who don't think and do like a Christian should. A Christian has the Holy Spirit and church leaders should be able to simply and gently use Scripture to instruct the people when they get out of line and the people should obey and submit to Biblical instruction because God said so and the church leader merely conveyed the message. The pastors instruction should closely resemble the Bible or it's not Biblically authoritative. The church leader is an agent of God but with different responsibilities than the people (who are also agents of God). The pastor is sometimes referred to as an "under shepherd". Jesus is the Head "Shepherd" or Manager of the Church. Pastors are lower level managers whose responsibility is only to do the will of the Head Shepherd, and any behavior of the pastor contrary to God's will is insubordination and sin. Personally, I think contracts and covenants are adding to Scripture and adding requirements for church membership that God didn't advocate or approve of. However, I do think you can join these churches and serve God there even though there are dangers with or without covenants. The Bible clearly teaches in Corinthians that God picks the members of the body when He saves them and His Holy Spirit enters them. They are given spiritual gifts and are instructed to minister to other members of the body and to assemble with the body. You can attend a church body and use your gifts, minister, and be ministered to without any contracts or covenants. You may not be able to be a church leader but you can be a part of the body. It's easier for church leaders to deal with problems if there is a contract because it takes a lot of knowledge and work to apply the Bible to all the problems in the church. It's much easier to say "you agreed to follow what we say" which in my opinion is elevating man's opinion above God's opinion of how the church should manage the people. The early churches were just one church in the whole city which means they had every "denomination" and bad theology attending together, so there had to be a lot of teaching to clear up the bad theology, heresy and sin. To avoid all that work, pastors use contracts to keep parts of the body out that they don't like which the Bible actually says we can't do. It says we can't say to this part of the body "we don't like you" "go somewhere else and be with your own kind", etc... It's a problem and most people just go worship with like minded parts of the body (or somewhat like-minded) There's no perfect church. Get plugged in somewhere and start ministering and growing. The Master will return and hold everyone accountable for their sins and turn this ship around. The church is dysfunctional in many ways and looks like the Keystone cops (clowns) from time to time but the gates of Hell will not prevail against it. Try to honor God the best you can and keep thinking and asking questions. Love God and Love your neighbor as you mentioned and you will be in God's Will concerning everything
The inference is that if you aren't a member, you aren't part of the body of Christ. But there is nothing in the New testament that teaches this, you can be members of one body and of one church, you can be an interdependent loving family with leadership, discipline, submission, order and structure, committed and involved with your local church without going through any further process than the saving grace and ongoing sanctification of Christ in our lives whilst living in unity with our Christian Brothers and Sisters and pursuing a relationship with our Lord & Saviour together... this is the picture that we see in the New Testament and no other. There is nothing that has been said in this video that provides a scriptural basis for the process of membership as practised within many modern day churches. Furthermore, none of the biblical aspirations towards unity that they provide are prevented from being achieved in a church which has no official membership process. My last point is that if biblical discipline is implemented in the church and a member is expelled in line with scripture. The interference is that they simply stop being a member. But that means they can still attend as a non member in theory and it isn't the model we clearly see in scripture where that person is expelled entirely from the church and it's meetings and it's fellowship.
1 Cor 5 says not even to eat with such a one. Church discipline has to do with the complete excommunication of that believer from the church until they repent.
There is no such thing as "local church membership", the Bible only talks about the membership in the body of Christ, the church, which is different from local church *assembly".
Not just homes. That was their daily fellowship, but they also gathered in the temple(Acts 2:46) and together at Solomon's portico(Acts 5:12), as well as in the public. Each city had their own church(Acts 14:23; 16:5) and the believers of that city gathered together as a whole but also privately(Acts 20:20). Acts 2:46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house... Acts 20:20 How I(Paul) kept back nothing that was profitable from you(Church of Ephesus), but taught you in public and from house to house.
"Obey your leaders" in Hebrews 13:17 doesn't mean obey whatever the leader says. The proper interpretation is to be persuaded by them. The leader has no authority over the believer. The leader can only convey Scripture with authority. His opinion is only an opinion and everyone has one, but leaders are supposed to be more knowledgeable and mature and more able to point the layman in the right direction concerning what God wants him to do. Leaders are to lead by example... not rule or lord over the people. So, bad example Chandler.
1 Corinthians 16:15-16 commands the church to submit to such as the deacons 1 Thessalonians 5:12-13 tells the believer to acknowledge their church leaders, allow them to instruct you, and to respect them. Heb 13:17 Says to "obey" and "submit" meaning to allow yourself to be "persuaded by" your leaders and "to yield yourself to" them. 1 Peter 5:3 does say not to domineer over, meaning leadership cannot force people to listen to them. That is true vice verse in V.2 which says the people cannot force the elder to lead them either. It is a mutual commitment from both parties in which you are giving the leader the right to oversee you(Practicing oversight), which includes teaching you biblical doctrine, exposing your sin, setting you straight, and training you up all according to the Word of God (2 Timothy 3:16-17).
@@maceawilder Thank you Mace. That was gentle, kind, instructive, and helpful more than you know. The sore spot with me is when Heb 13:17 is misused for personal lording over. So when I hear church leaders use "obey" in Heb 13:17 without any other instruction concerning the leaders responsibilities or the extent to how far "obey" goes, then I begin to question whether he simply failed to clearly communicate and teach or is he laying the foundation for imposing his own extra Biblical opinions or convictions as a means of control. Side note... Romans 13 and Heb 13:17 were Hitler's (plus many other tyrants) favorite verses because they are so easily misused to control people.
The massive level of scandal exuding from nearly every denomination regarding sex abuse, financial abuses, shepherding. How can you expect people to trust that your extra-biblical concept of “church membership” is correct. The way to know people is not through the signing of pieces of paper, but through relationships. What, exactly, precisely is a believer supposed to submit to regarding an elder?
Btw, doctrine? There are tons of ways where anyone claiming to be a believer might disagree with your doctrine. The mere existence of these divisions makes the whole endeavor suspect.
What does the Bible teach about authority? This is what Jesus said...If anyone would be first, he must be last of all and servant of all. Mark 9:35 Pastors and elders are to exercise their spiritual gifts in the body, for the body and as also members of the body. When church leaders, pastors and elders elevate themselves above others in the body - abuse and abuse of perceived power occurs. There are no inferior positions in the body of Christ. Different roles and responsibilities but Christ is the Head, Christ has all authority- His Word is the authority. We are subordinate to the Scriptures not to the person teaching the Scriptures. Leadership is about being a servant, caring for the souls of people. There is no one in a true church inferior to another. Leaders are not meant to have power. Jesus says...All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. When churches begin to run like a business model with bosses and a hierarchical structure it is no long The Body of Christ = The Church. The Bible says we submit to one another in the body. It does not say submit to a power hungry elder or pastor operating outside the bounds of God's Word. If a leaders is not humble and first submissive to Christ they have zero authority in the body of Christ. Leaders in a church will give an account. As a believer hurt by a church I had been committed to, a member of and faithfully serving for 3 decades - Those in leadership should not be submitted to because they were not carrying out biblical shepherding and leadership as written in God's Word. When pastors and elders twist and reinterpret God's Word much abuse in churches takes place. I have been very discouraged the past couple years with the revealing that believers, including pastors do not know their Bibles well. They know other people's interpretation of Scriptures but are not studied themselves. Be discerning and cautious about every word someone teaching the Bible says and check it carefully yourself. So if an elder or pastor tells you you must submit to their authority- remind them respectfully that, no, they are not Jesus and all authority has been given to Him. You shall worship the Lord your God and Him only shall you serve. Matthew 4:10. God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth. John 4:24.
What we have here are unsaved men, having never experience the New Birth, according to John 3:3.. They fancy one another with their intellect, unable to discern that which is spirit! Membership is a doctrine of man. The holy scriptures does not support this heresy.
Amen Leroy. You nailed it. If they had experienced Christ IN them, they would be calling people out, not in. These organizations are the synagogues of Satan where lies are taught. It is the whore of Babylon. Come out of her my people.
The church they are attempting to explain doesn’t exist. Plus these guys are reformed, they have a traditional model and expression of doing church that was founded in the reformation. I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you have been called, with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love, eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit-just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call- one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. But grace was given to each one of us according to the measure of Christ's gift. Therefore it says, “When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men.” (In saying, “He ascended,” what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower regions, the earth? He who descended is the one who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.) And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes. Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love.
