"The Pain means you're alive, until it doesn't". That pain Ollie experienced at Tour des Stations was a reminder having parts of the body he never cared enough of before
So, if leaning farther forward it makes me faster (more aero) but uncomfortable (and painful), then all I need to do is ignore that pain and therefore I'll be faster. However, I might try harder for a longer period if I'm not in pain with a slightly higher body position. At my age and performance level, I'm all about enjoyment and that means comfort is priority #1. It's like, if I'm not having fun and/or not getting paid to do this then why bother?
I have a PHD in PAIN! I shattered my lower spine in 1983 and have had over a dozen spinal surgeries since. I have had to live with severe chronic pain for many decades. The only thing you can do is learn to accept and live with it. You learn to push the pain into the background with great success when your energy levels are high. The problem is that you are more susceptible to injury, because you don't respond to pain in the same way. However, as you fatigue it get's hard to push pain into the background. I have found that my exercise pain threshold is too high to always be safe. It's a double edge sword for sure.
I can relate to this. I had spinal fusion between L3/L4 10 years ago and have experienced these same kinds of problems. These days, like yourself, I never push myself too hard and always err on the side of caution in whatever I do. Unfortunately, had to give up tennis though!
16:29 - This is why hill climbs can be literally *addictive* - Because you know it will be over very soon, you can hold the power just that little bit longer than any training session.
I’ve been trending towards comfort being that I’m now 41 yo. I’ve ridden a whole slew of top of the line carbon soled cycling shoes over the years and didn’t love any of them. They all hurt. I scored a set of lace up adidas road shoes on eBay for $27 and they are by far the most comfortable cycling shoes I’ve ever worn. I’m a track sprinter too and people gave me shit for not wearing the “stiffest” shoes but I’m faster when I’m comfortable 🤷🏾♀️
GCN do more content like this. The brain body interaction is a interesting topic. How about interviewing world class athletes from several sports on how the engage the mental aspect to their sport. Thank you for what you do.
@@gcn Mikala Shifrin Alpine Ski Racer, Mark Cavendish - what does he go through mentally before a sprint, current F1 driver - what a complex mental puzzle to put together at those speeds, Senna Leith - US Boarder Cross Athlete.
I've just started reading The Hardmen (by Velominati) and was introduced to the interesting concept of possessing "the perfect amount of dumb", where the book describes the rouleurs relentless performance capacity: smart enough to train to peak fitness and be tactically smart during a race but dumb enough not to realise they can easily make the pain stop at any time.
That was a very interesting interview. And I know he has his children's pictures on the wall something that most parents do, but, maybe that's how we persevere through tough or challenging times at work because it reminds who we are persevering for and the end result we are pushing towards. Perseverance is a very underrated skill in my opinion. Sometimes I think that it's not good to feel like you have to persevere through everything. Sometimes you just want to go for a slow ride down to the beach or forest or where ever. I rode in the past with a friend to talk about something difficult or just to relax at night no pain included.
This was a brilliant video, thanks! I’m entirely in the comfort over performance camp. I’m not racing, I’m out there to enjoy my rides. I think that a great step towards that is to remove the speed and distance counters from your head unit. There isn't a metric for comfort or pleasure, and humans love comparing numbers and competing, so they boast their speed instead of claiming "well I’ve had 20% more fun than you"
Intersting you guys covered this. Recently Ive raised the bars on all my bikes, and I feel Im breathing better, likely faster, but mostly happier, and tend to stay out longer.
"discomfort" from exertion is one thing, fetishisation of "suffering" and the specific "pain" memes associated with cycling/sport are counterproductive on numerous levels, not just performance. It's less indicative of being "hard" than being "troubled" by underlying mental health challenges. Not sure where the line between dedication and unhealthy obsession is, as it's different for everyone, but it's worth reminding ourselves of the reasons we started cycling. They're often very different to the reasons we continue cycling.
I have learned overtime through lifting weights what "good" pain and "bad" pain is. Just like cycling you want muscular pain and to break through barriers to reach new heights. Quite different from joint or ligament pain in my experience. I try my best to reduce "fit" pain since that directly influences my time on the bicycle. Sure you can tough it out for a while, maybe forever, but there is no need unless you are trying to improve your willpower which is undeniably important. In the end I would focus on comfort first, and then as you ride more and do tougher things to keep getting better. I know mentally I had a big shift when I learned/realized that the pain means it's working(when it comes to muscles) and that is a positive thing.
THAT WAS FANTASTIC. THANK YOU. One of the best tech/science videos to date. Especially the association/disassociation talk, although I would have preferred one method being the "best" 😁 I have actually experienced both. If in pain going around the house and I find something interesting to do, then when I finish it dawns on me, that I couldn't remember having pain while doing it. Also, especially when just starting a run, I can feel pain in the foot or knee and I think about that and tell myself, "it's nothing" or "you imagine it, to justify giving up" and the pain dissappears after a while. But I've never been able to decide if I the pain would have disappeared anyway or I made it go away 🙂
I like that you ended on, "What are you doing this for?" I do this so that I'll be in shape to play with my grandkids someday. I don't need to punish myself to get the benefit. And the more I enjoy it while it's happening, the more likely I am to keep doing it.
Andy Pruitt told me that in his years of gathering data and testing elite cyclists, that athletes tend to output greater power numbers, sometimes significantly greater numbers when they aren’t enduring physical discomfort in order to maintain their ride position.
I have learned to better endure pain while doing intervals and high intensity efforts by saying out loud "it's supposed to feel this way". This seems to encourage me to continue because I am "doing it correctly". On very long rides, I also do math in my head. I calculate average speeds and distances and average power, etc.
The Tour Divide is an extremely interesting case study in this. It has been won with flat bars and drop bars, with and without suspension. The winning time is around 2 weeks so it really puts both bike and rider to the test. interestingly the most common bike is a rigid drop bar mountain bike with aero bars
I never pushed hard in cycling, but with *rowing* back in the day, simply pushing through and accepting pain worked perfectly well on our 2km sprint races, but on the 5+km head races we would specifically try to mitigate it because the mental tax of it would get too much over the longer period. Main thing we would change was the oars - specifically choosing based on the handles. Some of the handles of the nices oars we had available were much harder on our hands. Both making them sore, and making the blisters worse. Especially if they got wet. Other handles of less-nice oars were easier, and had less issues getting wet, so we would switch to those on the long races. Some other stuff too, say moving the seat slides back a bit to get a slightly shorter stroke, but avoid "track bites" on the backs of our calves, but that also got fixed by making other adjustments later.
Although the start of the professors explanation was very technical and hard to grasp, there are good points made through the rest of the video. Thanks for this content. Personal experience shows what you can tolerate, weather it is a two hour training ride or a twelve hour pain train ride, pain tolerance effects speed. Conclusion: listen to your body and build from there.
Been through a load of bikes but found absolute comfort on one - not the lightest, not the most aero optimised, not the most expensive by a long shot but with comfort it has made me stronger and faster than all the 'cool' barrister bikes out there that may as well cost the same as a small mortgage.
Comfort is most certainly a huge factor in endurance cycling. My challenge in June took me over 1140 miles in 8 days, and not having the correct-width saddle really made a huge difference, Not being able to sit properly for a good while at the start of days / post rest, and adding ore stops to adjust and stand (not pedalling) to apply creams and such took a lot of extra time each day, and that's not including any actual power loss. In addition to this, wider tyres and lower pressures help enormously - I've gone from running 25's on tubes at 100psi, to tubeless 30's at 72psi and the difference on UK roads is enormous. As a final point - there's a good reason why a large percentage of Audax cyclists ride titanium bikes - compliance equals comfort, and comfort is key on ultra events.
I had a slipped disc a few years a go and a physio I went to got me to visualise in my minds eye the effected area and it reduced the pain for a while. i 100% did not believe it would work, but gave it a go and was totally shocked. Its very short term, but it opened up my mind.
I've had a similar experience with severe headaches. If I had time and space to go into the pain, as it were, it did reduce the pain. But yes, short term, really only while I was doing it. Interesting sensation though.
I think Lex really nailed the most important point when talking about his personal experience running a marathon. I'd like to be the fastest cyclist in my group every day of the week, but at the end of the ride I want to know that first and foremost I enjoyed the ride, even if it meant I got dropped. If I put myself through hell on the bike to the point of not wanting to do it again, what have I really gained?
Having a low stem doesn’t make for an aero position, a lot of people run their stems and bars low and then ride most of the time with straight arms so they aren’t actually lowering their body position. It is actually more aero to keep the bars higher and bend the elbows more to lower the body.
I appreciate you posting this. I think that the doctor is absolutely correct. In my (beginning) Ironman training, that balance of stretching out to a goal just out of my reach whether that's training on my heavier bike with agressive tires (tyres) or stretching out my running endurance and cadence by just a bit more over a longer period of time allows the plasticity of my concious brain and nerve pathways to create alternate pathways, slowing the intensity of the pain like water being channeled into streams rather than one main river, and increasing endurance. I think that comfort is important, especially in the beginning and becoming more Aero when we reach, say, Ollie's level of fitness, for me, the key is where time and that pain threshold intersect that is a movable number or the threshold of a parabola arc. At that threshold is your max endurance. That moves with intensity and time. Train heavy over time and race light.
very interesting and based on experience I would say comfort plays a role. I thought there would be no way I could beat my PRs on a smooth hardpacked local MTB trail on my full suspension trail bike with beefier tires then my XC hardtail, but my fastest time out there has been on my full sus. And I didn't hold back on my hardtail when I tried to lay down best times, yes it was a bit quicker up the hills but the slacker geo on the full sus and added rear suspension allowed me to push harder longer and flow better. I should say environment plays a pretty big role as well though because my HT which is now setup more so for gravel will destroy my full sus on pavement and gravel rides at the distances I have done them. I think I would end up in more pain on the full sus on pavement and gravel trying to keep the same speed I can on my HT.
I had initially given this video a pass because I'm not that much into racing, but I decided to give it a go because I love physiology, science and long touring rides and conditioning. What stellar content! It coorelates to my experiences well. I think one of the areas that shows this nugget that pain wastes vital energy is the comfort associated with the move to wider tyres. You aren't fighting the bike, the road and you are maintaining essential contact which allows you to actually go faster. Interestingly, it doesn't 'feel' faster but my speedometer doesn't lie! I promise to click on content like this in the future if you cue us with the word 'science ' eg. 'The science of pain' or something. Thanks to 'the professor of pain' and making this content so accessible! It confirms my switch to association a few years ago. Thanks!
Pain whilst riding has kept me from cycling for many years. Just started again. Thankful for no pain right now. Having a bike fitted for me is huge in that
Love Ollie, matched for top 7 in gcn, all seven are fav for various reasons; hank, si, ollie, manon, conner, killian, dan! All powerhouses of knowledge and entertainment alike, what a show. Love watching you guys, this comment is too old to get any notary and that’s ok. Maybe creeping back through the comments they get the boost they need as i love them all. Keep one in the satchel and power on diamonds
I live with chronic pain and found this video very interesting, changing mindset and becoming less reliant on strong harmful medications would be a big step forward, not just in a sporting context
it makes sense that being more comfortable enables one to ride longer, and the more time riding enables the recruitment of various muscle groups employed in the effort and development of cadence etc. as shorter pain threshold efforts would prompt growth whereas continual discomfort can facilitate adoption it would inhibit growth by limiting time
"Skinny tyres"? 0:10 But perhaps some people have not heard that loss of energy at the seat/rider interface is as detrimental as loss of energy from tyre rolling resistance and air resistance.
I was really hoping the good prof would quantify the loss of performance due to pain. He only talked qualitatively about whether it really happens, what the reasons behind it are. But unanswered is whether it is a Watt number, of a magnitude on par with tire resistance, or aero resistance? A % drop in speed? Is it scaled according to rate of perceived pain (RPP) like a RPE metric? Then it could be compared to loss of performance from higher body position, aero gain/loss, tire choice, etc....
@@alexseguin5245 If he's making a claim that performance is influenced by pain, then as a scientist he's got experimental evidence of performance that has been quantified, somehow some way. Or it's only a hypothesis currently, or he's a sub-par scientist. I don't have the time or the background to look up his published studies and understand them, it would have been nice to see in this video what the quantities are he measured. FTP/Power, duration, speed, whatever it was.
As a former track and road racing runner, comfort, starting out slower and picking up the pace slowly was successful for me. Look at how many of the top track racers race a championship race today. Slow to start but staying within themselves. The pain starts over the last 300-500 meters as they race for the win. Staying under you AT in a competition keeps it fun and more comfortable until the end. IMO. Yes I cycle a little now and apply the same principles. Just no racing….
In my 60s now and I think as you age it is not pain that becomes the limiter but the knowledge of what damage you can be doing to yourself as a consequence of that pain. I am more than capable of pushing on through pain for extended periods but I know that my older body is now much more likely to break down and I will suffer long-term issues as a result. I am sure many older cyclists like myself experience this same set of dynamics and have to frequently dial things back to avoid injury and lengthy rehabilitation.
I've ridden many kinds of bicycles road and mtb, and motorcycles for 50+ years, for many hours on the seat and pain developed over decades. I stopped mtb and road biking because of pain. These days I ride an ebike, 20x4 wheels and it has two seats, and a bmx handlebar. (Rad runner 2) Its a very comfortable bike and I don't have to push myself as hard. Its for road and gravel riding. The e assist helps bring the biking back into fun which takes a 60lb bike feel and go like a 20lb road bike, and the upright seat is more like running. I can do multiple days and not feel totally worn out. The saddle is basically flat and large, firm, but it works great. No pain even with regular clothes. No cycling shorts. Additionally, I take my hands off the bars in the easy areas and "jog", arm movement, good biomechanics. I'm very upright and spinning, and I have the rear seat kit which is great for downhills and cruising (recumbrant style). There is also standing and coasting or motoring which allows great recovery. So the bike has three riding positions. By moving around changing position on flats to hills, and downhills my body doesn't tighten up. Since I am comfortable riding, I'm doing more. Addtionally at my age (59) I have to be careful with heartrate and pushing, and the motor allows me to not go into redline. I live at 7000 feet elevation and there are hills and the e assist really helps keep me happy and healthy. I didn't think that this style of bike would be such a good commuting bike and healthy fitness bike. 30 miles is "easy" and I recover well. The bike does great on gravel. Three hours on the bike is plenty and I'm making stops for cafe and photographs. More calming. Its a funny look on the road but it works great for training and fitness. I've been doing this for several months and the riding gets better and better. If I had a skinny roadbike I would ride that on PR days and use the ebike the majority of time.
I heard someone say years ago that you should respond to pain as you would to a small child of whom you are fond. Thank it for bringing whatever it is to your attention; assure it that it isn't in danger (that is, it's not an injury); and give it a reassuring hug, so to speak, and carry on. I find this helps me, because one of my reactions to pain is fear that it will get worse: I can handle this but what if.... I'm still not good at dealing with pain of my own making; if it will stop hurting if I just stop doing x, I'm likely to stop doing x. I'm now old enough to be devoting some arthritis in my toes, so will see over the coming years how that pain and cycling interact.
I've lived most of my life suffering chronic pain because of injuries. I've done all the meds and all the psychiatric treatments. What I find fascinating is how something can take your mind off of pain to the point you forget about it. An example! I'm riding along on a long ride, I'm 4 hours in, my shoulders are aching my left knee is hurting. Suddenly I spot a huge boat on the river I'm riding along and there's a party on the boat with loud music, people are waving at me, I wave back, have a giggle and ride on thinking about the boat,the music, the people then I'm thinking about the time I was at a great party and my thoughts drift on! Suddenly I realise my niggles have gone! How does this happen? Cognitive pain therapy is all about creating thoughts and actions to take the mind off the pain. It takes practice and it's very difficult to master yet something so simple while out on a ride works without even thinking about it. Amazing!
I’ve got 4 or 5 triangle-frame bikes and I am surprised that I haven’t even ridden any of them for the last year. (That’s the Merlin mountain, carbon-fibre road, OX-II tour bike, my shaft drive Dekra… is that it?) Yet a couple years ago I spent $100 for a 1990s Bike-E recumbent with 8x3 gears. It’s easily the heaviest bike, it doesn’t really handle very well (at speed), it’s big & bulky. Little wheels (20” rear, 16” front). The damn thing looks pretty much like a 2x4 board on wheels. Yet I ride it everywhere. Why?? I think it has to be the ultra-comfortable chair and seat back. The thing is just magnificent. I don’t often get passed but I do know for a fact it’s no racer. But I don’t ride to go fast. Getting a crick in the neck on a triangle frame just isn’t worth it any more. I love my Bike-E!
I started out with a similar low-end sun ez-racer. I’ve upgraded a few times over the years and finally landed in a velomobile Ike. I will never understand why anyone would still ride a diamond frame. Sometimes I wonder if these riders just get a kick out of bragging a out their level of suffering?
Very interesting topic. I am glad i tolerated the early pain from the initial rather lengthy and multi-faceted statement from Mr. Mauger as the later commentary was excellent and fascinating.
Loved the use of video clips of James aka 'Hank' illustrating painful rides, lol. Also not discussed, the long term issues to your body from trying to ignore the pain. Ultracyclist will often finish events with severe nerve damage to hands/feet and other areas that won't disappear for weeks to months. Usually requiring much treatment (chiro/accupunture/physio/massage etc) or surgery.
I always wonder why ultra cyclists don’t use a recumbent instead. The position is so much more ergonomic. Yes, you lose something while climbing, but you make up for that on flat and downhill all without the potential for permanent nerve damage.
Pain is what pushed me to riding recumbent and then on to a velomobile. Back problems mean that a road bike not just is painful, but leaves me in pain well after the exercise is over. It wasn’t worth it. I ride for much longer and enjoy it far more with a recumbent. With my velomobile, I can get the big speed buzz, but without any pain.
If you can imagine a graph for speed versus time and plotted an aggressive aero setup and a more comfortable setup it would show that the aggressive setup would be faster over shorter time periods, but at some point the graphs would cross and the more comfortable setup would become faster. Where these graphs cross would be dependant on the ability and training of the rider, fitter more conditioned riders would be able to remain faster on the aggressive setup for much longer periods, perhaps for several hours which could be the length of a long road race or similar. Less conditioned riders may only be faster on the aggressive setup for a few minutes before the more comfortable setup became faster, which is why less fit amateur riders are often better choosing endurance bikes etc. It’s all about knowing your abilities and where you sit on this graph. In terms of being as fast as you can be, if you can sustain your performance on the aggressive setup for the length of the event you are doing then this is the right choice. If you can’t sustain it for the time of the event then you should move more towards comfort. This may not mean going full upright with some big padded saddle, but more a case of dialling back the aggressive setup to the point where it becomes sustainable for you for the length of time needed to complete the event. Essentially you are looking for the most aggressive setup that you can sustain for the needed time.
Absolutely! I'd rather ride my 28-44, 12-36 touring bike on 100k ride than my Aluminum track bike. The track bike is more fun on short rides though. Done 100k on both.
OMG !!! 15:05 -- First time I ever see another person using math arythmetics from random numbers to change his mind. I often decompose the hour it is in multiplication of prime numbers to help met fall asleep. Glad too see I'm not alone in this. Thanks Ollie!
My discomfort level is quite high. This is due to a lifetime of riding stiff bikes with skinny tyres. However, I am starting to want more comfort. Will do this with my next bike(s).
A question I wished you had asked is this: If I want to do, for example, a 12-hour ride, am I better off training on my normal bike, and then switching to a less aggressive bike for the 12-hour ride? Or am I better off just training on the less aggressive bike all the time and using it for the 12-hour ride, as well? I wonder if I use the less aggressive bike all the time, will I just get used to it, and therefore not benefit in terms of comfort when I push my limits?
Pain tolerance I believe is something that sets apart great cyclists from phenomenal cyclists. I've heard often people like Pogacar or WVA speaking about enduring pain and then coming as winners.
Pain has always been the biggest limiter to success, those that can block out pain or reduce how their mind interprets sensations that others mind refer to as pain along with proper equipment, training will always go faster. If you get to know pain in training when you experience it in an event it will not be a limiter but like an old friend who you really don't care for but cant convince yourself to say, " get lost". Just a thought...
I may be wrong, but it seems that adjusting my position a lot and keeping my calories and hydration up helps keep a lot of pain away. Plus a good pair of bib shorts :)
That's a great point, but for many the super stretched out position isn't manageable for a longer ride. Perhaps some yoga could be a great way of holding a more aero position 👉ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-vjS68HwVtOY.html
You don't need to be comfortable. Even if you can't touch your toes get a 10k super bike from China, spend 1000 dollars on "bike fit" until you find the one possible combination of things that allows you to ride it without breaking your spine in half. This is the way forward.
Very interesting topic, and I was really looking forward to this video. However, I couldn’t help but be distracted by Ollie’s hair band. What was he thinking?? Aero hair as well?
Ollie has started cycling at 25 I reckon. That's very old for your bottom vertebral column to adapt the 90° stretch. I see a lot of people on group rides trying to false the flat back staying aerodynamic, it's difficult and there is no physio exercise or medicine can make you achieve that. Embrace yourself with the round back, it's also fast as it made Chris Froom win 6 Time Trial stages on clinging four Tour de France wins.
I told you that i buy a endurance road bike entry level the weight of 8.620 after some upgrades that i did the bike is 7.470 kilo not only that is a super bike at the moment for the price of 2300 bucks much faster than the road bikez which cost 6.000 and 7.000 bucks and about the speed the crankset its important with 50 teeth crankset you obviously don't gonna go that fast but with 53 teeth is much faster so for me the best combination is endurance light frame with good components and you will remember me what is faster aero or a very careful build endurance road bike from my experience the second one the endurance build is much better
I love my Dutch bike. It rolls extremely smooth with 30 year old grease, hybrid tires, and a completely upright position. I think aerodynamics and efficiencies are overrated. I can’t use my road bike due to neck and back pain
Comfort does = Further, and on the right ride further will mean you complete the ride. If your not comfortable 30km may be your max but comfort can be 100km or 1000km.
Watched this. Id and fully expected you to admit your ode the wrong bike on that ride. I switched to a much more felaxed geometry bike and haven’t experienced any of the problems you were complaining about.
Great content; not the best delivery though. Watching a zoom meeting on a computer is tough. Perhaps in person interview or just tell the information directly. Just sayin' Love GCN! Great stuff.
Or maybe record the other side separately with a better mic then combine in edit; that way we're not listening to a laptop mic through the internet call compression. I think that would at least make it a lot easier to listen to.
We thought this topic was so interesting that it needed it's own interview - If you want to see this topic in motion then Ollie's 1000km epic is great 👉 ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-dpa9FZHOdwY.html
