Is Commander Too Casual? (MagicCon: Las Vegas) | Commander Clash Podcast 114 

Since a lot of people have asked, yes, we did record a live episode of Commander Clash. Still needs to be edited, but should be going up next Friday!

Seth starting into my soul for an hour straight is definitely a vibe

Speaking on behalf of Crim, the one thing you can say about your average commander player is they will always ask the table to answer something they can't, and they will always complain when whatever they did was answered. Having the answer, being the board police, is a job. It is a thankless job, that often goes as punished as it goes rewarded. God bless you Crim.

I think Crim and Tomer nailed this in the first like ten minutes. The "Hey this is where my deck is are we cool playing at that level" is perfect. And basically everything else is extraneous and often harmful.

A lot of these questions revolve around 1) how do I prepare for the meta I'm playing into and 2) is that a meta I *want* to play into

Imagine being in a hotel room, having no idea about this game and you hear a podcast next door xD

Rule 0 is different with a dedicated playgroup vs out in the wild. You have to understand as a player that if you have a regular group you can rule 0 whatever you want, but you cannot take those expectations to your LGS or Magic Fest. In my group we don't really like combos and we have a general understanding that combos have to be convoluted and funny for us to have fun. I can't go to an LGS and sit down with strangers and explain that I won't play with them unless their combos are 3+ cards and don't use meta cards. That's not fair to anyone. My understanding of Rule 0 in the wild is that you discuss if your decks are a good matchup for a fun game and if they're not you play different decks or find a different group. Not litigating what kinds of effects you don't like.

What Seth was saying about hidden rules really spoke to me. Ive only recently got into commander more (coming from competitive constructed). I have had some really negative experiences where people felt I behaved inappropriately or broke some sort of gentlemens agreement type thing, not just the cards I play, but also attacking people. It really sucks.

Love it. Anytime the guys can hangout is a good time 😊

7:11 YES! CRIM, YES! “Rule Zero has become ‘I don’t like it, so I don’t want to play against it.’”

The entire problem with EDH power level boils down to this interaction I had a couple years ago- A guy casually played a Back to Basics in a casual pod and didn’t think it was weird at all, and absolutely lost his mind later in that very same game when I played Villainous Wealth, and then when I got it back and played it again he scooped and started saying that it’s such a toxic card and should be banned while walking out of the store…

My problem with casual commander is that people want the power of CEDH but interaction of casual play.

it's so cool to see you guys in this format

Man, great discussion! My take has always been that commander is a social format more than a casual one. The social interaction definitely makes it a bit more casual, but like Crim said, there has to be a winner. Three players are going to lose, and there's nothing wrong with that.

When Tomer said " isn't just an exexcuses to show off all my shiny cards I spent too much money on?" I felt that cause I try so hard to activate the world tree in my Theros Gods deck exclusively so i can slam all my secret lair foils onto the board at once. One friend always just wants to scoop and get on to the next game, but I just wanna finish searching out my Gods

Great show guys! I haven’t seen these issues in my play groups, but I’ve definitely updated/changed decks or put decks away (i.e. Talrand) based on social cues. Regardless of who wins at the end of the game, we want everyone to enjoy it, so our decks change over time and yeah, there are certain things I won’t play, but no one ever made that rule, it’s all just based on getting to know your play group.

This has been my favorite episode of this channel ever! Why? Because these are the things that my kitchen table pod talk about all the time. We allow any card that is not banned. If one player is winning too much then we swap out decks lol

Vegas are litterally your guys best content, 10/10

Crim at first looking like he's being held at gunpoint 😂 "Do the podcast and nobody gets hurt!"

The problem always comes down to people being horrible at using their better judgement when it comes to creating a good play experience for the table. Sometimes Rule Zero almost feels like a cryptic resident evil puzzle to figure out whether or not you're going to have a straight up non-game toward either end of the competitive spectrum lol. I just wish more people introspected even slightly during deckbuilding and gameplay instead of putting the onus entirely on complete strangers. I summarize my philosophy to my friends like this: "the *objective* of the game is to win, but the *point of playing the game* is to have fun. And the way you have fun is found in how you choose to pursue (or disregard) the objective."

In our group there is no rule 0, we just want to see cool shit, if u found a cool combo on accident or on purpose and/or your deck does what you built it todo then cool.

Every time I see Seth with the gang I'm surprised at how small he is. When he's in his own camera frame he's just larger than life.

Let out an audible scream of excitement when i saw Brewer's Kitchen

Things that make Commander games fun to watch: 1) politics 2) interaction 3) Banter between players 4) Players maneuvering "hurdles" in their gameplan 5) Finding wincons using 1-4 Things people complain about in Commander.... See 1 through 5.

Playing "not to win" in a game in which there is always a clear winner is a true paradox. Most Rule 0 conversations boil down to, "I don't like these cards or strategies because they don't let me win with my cards/strategies." IMO strategies that shut down other strategies are not there to say, "You can't have fun" but to say, "You can't win that way." In the end, "fun" in a game where there is always a winner means winning.

100% agree with crim. Play what you want.

Tomer: "There's no reason to take someone out early" Phil: "THEY ARE YOUR OPPONENT!!!!" 😤😤😤😤😤

Richard's final point is such a big thing, and I think there could be room for a small number of more formalized Commander subformats. We already have two with CEDH and the rest of the format, but it's a lot of social norms trying to suss out the range of options in the format currently.

Crim is my spirit podcaster

I built a Hylda (Elsa) deck and it is my absolute favorite because it is really fun to pilot. My main deck that is what I use to win packs at my LGS has become boring to play because it is just get the two cars combo, protect it, and win on turn 4/5. I rarely play it anymore. Casual decks around the turn 7-11 win are more fun to me now.

The mulligan rule that we use in our play group that works really well for casual settings gives a free one each time instead of only the first 7, so it goes: 7, 7, 6, 6, 5, 5, etc instead of 7, 7, 6, 5, etc This way it does not feel as punishing and you get to see at least 5 hands before you are put in the spot where you "have to" keep your hand or go to 4. And it does still make mulliganing feel relevant and rewards good deck building, but does not desolve down to just grab whatever 7 cards you want. So it avoids feelbads for all players. (While we sometimes still encounter expection cases, that number has drasticly lowered)

Loving the Daniel Johnston shirt!

This wildley and completely unrelated: how are literally ALL of the goldfish guys gorgeous

What Seth was saying around 49:45 is exactly how I got into commander. I built a Kaalia of the Vast deck with Armageddon and the very first game with strangers at my LGS I armageddoned with a Kaalia in play. The whole table picked up their cards and one guy said, "if you're playing Armageddon we won't play with you". I still have that Kaalia deck lol.

Really good conversation with lots of genuine and well thought out ideas from across the team. Great video. IMO Phil’s idea of “allow everyone to pop off” is what is hurting magic in some aspects. Garfield’s original sets were full of blood moons, discard, counterspells and creatures with downsides. The reason spreading seas is banned on Arena, and no FIRE blood moon has been printed, ever, is Phil’s mentality played out to conclusion. I agree with Asian Avenger that some responsibility needs to be on the opponent of stax to build their decks to have more resilience - this actually helps out everyone because decks slow down a bit, become more interactive and less linear. That helps weaker strategies have a chance too.

Great episode! Cool to see the crew hanging out in person!

I want to play a multiplayer game when I play Commander. Too many players are taking rule 0 too far. If I wanted to play a single player game, I’d go play Baldur’s Gate 3 (great game, btw!).

This was such a great video if just to have everyone in the same room!

I find that rule zero works great in your own playgroup, but not much outside of that. Case in point, at my LGS several pods fire on a nightly basis and most are casual games. Unfortunately casual covers a wide range of power levels and archetypes. When players at my LGS mention a casual I always opt out now, because when asked what they mean by casual they can never tell me. I like to play combo decks that can win out of nowhere. Doesn’t necessarily mean cEDH or even high powered, but that is how people see it. I do not want to stomp people so I have decided only to play cEDH at my LGS, because with cEDH there is never a question of power level.

I love the improvement to audio from last year, good work!

Also I just love seeing the whole group in one room, you are all awesome

An excellent point by Crim--if we want this to be truly casual, a cooperative style of Magic--all players vs a non-player entity of some kind--would be optimal. That would build community and working together to solve problems.

Too casual???????? I feel like my curve is too high at an average of 3

Guys, the quality of this was so much better than your last hotel podcast. Thank you for upping the audio. I almost didn’t even listen because I was so turned off from the last hotel room video.

15:50 “Get good!” 😂 priceless!!!

Very nice upgrades to sound from last year!

You guys are all great, I can sense the love and the tension, there are points to all sides, it all comes down to communication if your play group treats you differently for your gaming preference than perhaps it’s not the right day or at some point not the right group. Acceptance and enjoyment, it’s all about fun and people aren’t just sitting down to win, sitting down to connect. However competition can be fun, I think the goal here overall is to help ourselves and each other grow. Great video, much love appreciate your work!💜

Is there going to be a live clash episode? I always hope for this since the early days when you guys went to gp Vegas. Great to see everyone together ❤️

I watch your Commander Clash and Seth's Arena videos since I found your channel thanks to the awesome Brewer's Kitchen videos. But this is the first time I actually "watch" your Podcast. Mainly because of the title and that you are all together. I must admit it is really a great conversation about different experiences, opinions and styles and helped me a lot to better understand my opponents or even confirming my own view is not too subjective. It's obviously different when you create content, as you also need to think about the viewer's experience. Personally I enjoy games where, like Phil said, everybody can somehow do their thing.... as long as I win 😬😄 Thanks a lot guys and have fun together! Looking forward to your next videos.

32:26 Phil with the statement of the year!!

i''ve got to say, rule 0 as someone who only really plays EDH these days with friends and the occasional pod that's happening at a store while i'm playing some other card game, i've only really truly liked it on basis of controlling power level and allowing stuff like silver border. i'll definitely say though, i deeply wish some of the more serious stuff pushed more into 60 card multiplayer than just edh. i think there's a lot of merit in stronger 60 card multiplayer that sadly doesn't get visited much because of the laser focus on EDH.

im gonna watch the whole thing but the easy answer is: no. commander is not too casual. (ppl gotta stop gettin mad about other ppl using game mechanics like stacks, counters, board wipes, etc though lol) EDIT: I'll add just as an aside... not everybody has a bunch of decks to swap to for these rule 0 talks so they might want a very specific thing or can't actually accommodate somebody elses demand for something to not be included.

This has been my favorite episode by far! seeing the crews banter and in person interactions was gold! Thanks for muscling through the heat to put this together! Awesome job guys! PS Casual is fun, CEDH is fun and getting countered every play is fun, Armageddon on the entire table is chefs kiss. If you don’t like the power levels, find a different play setting. I started out playing precons against true CEDH decks, I never gave up and now I’m a better player for it. I agree with Crim who also seems to be a glutton for punishment like myself. Git Gud, or find friends with lower level decks.

One of my earliest LGS Commander experiences was playing a deck that was mostly random uncommons + the Venser half of a duel deck that had just released. I had a Cache Raiders in play, and played an Archaeomancer, returning Time Warp to my hand, effectively going infinite on roughly turn ~11 mostly by accident. The owner of the LGS handed me a 10 page "Houserule" document where somewhere in the mire of other insane rules, it turned out taking 3 turns in a row meant I auto lost the game. I didn't go back, but it was definitely a reminder that the MTGO people exist in more than just the online space.

I hate getting my spells countered but I love doing it to other people 😂 counterspells can stay

The Rule 0 conversation I see most often is: My commander is going to be this silver boarded card, this 2 card non partner pair, or some other violation of the social contract in basic deck construction and NO ONE will be permitted to object because Rule 0 says "I can change the rules however I want."

I need a playmat of you guys sitting there together. Just a happy feeling

It sounds like your turn 0 is free Pithing Needle for some people. 😅😅

Rule 0 should exist, but it has become a cop out to actually managing the game well

58:16 I remember a game where one of the players at my casual lgs announched he was going to take extra turns. He was taking a while. The person opposite then grabbed some dice and rolled them. Grabbed a few of them and then rolled them again. They asked me if I knew how to play yathzee. I said yes. So we played some yathzee while this one player took like 10 ish minutes taking his turns. Honestly if I realize one of the players at the table is running extra turns I might just get up and leave because its such a snoozefest to play against.

The thing I find interesting in EDH is that it reveals hard questions and truths about human compromise, preferences, and the hardship of what to do when expectations and desires don't line up perfectly. And shows how poor society has equipped most all of us to not be able to work through and handle these issue skillfully in ways that resolve conflict for all (instead of one or more people retreating in anger)

“Excuse me while I go Adventure Mode and solitaire for 15 minutes…”

Love an in person commander clash crew

I'm somewhat confused by the premise Rule 0 being "I don't like this, it can't be played" at the very least everyone else at the table should get a chance to go "I do like this this, why is it such a problem for you?" Rule 0 is not carte blanche for one person to dictate a local banlist. it's a convesation to curate the play experience of the next few hours

This discussion made me happy that we have a pretty stable play group, we know what each other plays, how to deal and even when we grief its in good humor. Sure, someone (usually me) might be the arch enemy but we know why and its fine xD

It really boils down to answering one question. Is this my regular play group? If yes, anything goes. If I play with a new group, I feel it out. You can usually tell by turn two or three if you need to hold back or go for the throat.

Love to see the crew in one room! Regarding combo: If I am not totally off, EDH started as a game for judges also to experience fringe rule Interactions. In other words: Combo was the defining founding purpose of the Format

Id recommend running more reanimation if your commander is prone to dying or the 1-2 mana spells that return a creature card to your hand.

You could try something like Can Highlander where there are points attributed to some cards and then build decks with a max amount of these points. For example, you could have each of the crew submit a list of the 50 strongest/saltiest cards according to them with a value of 1 to ? points, compare lists (as there will be many that will be on more than one list) and aggregate into a final points list for the season and then have players build decks each week with a certain point threshold. Keep most games at 10 points, maybe, and have a "2 points week" somewhere in there, or a "20 points week" for higher powered yet not no-limit builds?

Richard calls it sweaty because he prefers other people to use deck slots for interaction while everyone ignores him and he wins games. If you don't want to interact on your opponent's turn, you can always play Pokemon TCG.

@tomer, imagine this. Player only gets to play 1 game a week. Player has not won a game for the past 7 weeks. Player finally has a win (Approach of the second sun). Player finally casts and has win on the stack. Player gets counterspelled. only counterspell of the night. I can imagine that player being "done." "I'm just trying to do my thing." "why did you have to target me when X was going to win next turn." "Counterspells are dumb/not fun." etc. It's all about perspective.

It's so fuckin awesome seeing you all in a room together.

Phil with the Smash shout out! Let's go baby! I show no mercy.

Is there someplace I could see Crim's esper Planeswalker deck. I've been trying to brew one myself but I can't find a good balance of cards. It would help a ton to have a working deck structure to start with

Being there average commander player does not preclude you from building a resilient deck

I've experienced times where a counterspell felt misplaced. Times where it's just used. As opposed to being used at an opportune time to stop a significant shift in the game or a game win.

love the casual rep of the daniel johnston shirt

Seth having a Daniel Johnston shirt makes sense to me

crim just brought the idea of "horde" basically a selfplaying deck vs players btw thats a really cool way to play commander esp with new people, you guys should try it out :D

I just wanted to say, these live podcasts are awesome! Also, I agree with Tomer a lot, certainly when it comes to taking out others early.

Yo, I was very excited to see this topic as it's something that has really been difficult for me with commander. To make a long story short, I'm just a spikier player who comes from Modern / Standard and I like to play Dimir. The amount of stuff I run into that's literally just like weird anger about the cards I like to play is so frustrating and annoying. I'm not an a-hole player - I'm polite and inclusive to everyone and I even make an effort to build up my opponents when they do things. But god forbid I Aetherize someone's lethal attack or cast 2 counterspells on them in a game. I've had players literally just scoop on the spot and storm off. People are emotionally immature and the policing of the commander format by casual players has become a little bit ridiculous, imo. Rather than think critically about their deckbuilding or bring answers to the table, there are a lot of players now who will just go "what you're doing is BS because it stops my deck's plan" and make you the problem because essentially, you weren't a training dummy for them to beat on. I'm not like, making this up in my head either- I wish I was, but its *an attitude* I've seen many times. I wish these people would stop and think about how in actuality their aggressive gatekeeping based on playstyles is excluding people from the format and making them feel unwelcome.

Phil coming in with the common sense "They're your opponent" 😂😂 Like I'm all for having fun, but if someone is out of control player removal is the best form of removal. And honestly if the other 3 players have to focus you, it means you're doing something right

It’s really just about defining the purpose of why we’re all together. Do you want to win or do your decks thing? Do you want to just have fun? Same thing we’ve done with games like Mario Party or other multiplayer casual games. It’s not casual if you only play to win.

Good show idea! I can only speak to my anecdotal experience but I think game 2 is essentially the sweet spot. I think it's still worth it but ultimately speculative in game 1 to set ground rules. Kind of like casual side-boarding. I only really play at an LGS and I've very rarely had an awful game 1 but it's never extended to a second game. Established players can match newer players or players with one deck. Also, Seth is so friendly and welcoming on the podcast I didn't expect him to be a full on God of War reskin with hair. I was half expecting him to throw a frost axe at something and call the rest of the crew 'boy'.

Man, I think all this can be distilled down to two basic priorities. Do you prioritize your experience or the group’s experience? Whichever is more important to you will guide both the deck building process and gameplay. Neither is wrong or right; it’s simply a matter of where one person finds enjoyment versus another.

With the mulligan rule, I heard on a video of commander clash (the Professor) where he was playing with some of the creators of commander and they said that if originally if your playing with people you can trust it was just mulligan until they felt good about the mulligan.

Note to self, this group of 5 rules: no extra turns, no stacks, no land destruction, no counter, and hopefully minimal mass removal for 7 card combos. Noted

It's important to distinguish expensive strong free counterspells (FoW, FoN, fierce guardianship) from other counterspells. The former are less fun to face for players with low power decks. Same for combos that can only be stopped a particular way like counterspells or graveyard hate. Tomer's point about big difference in the card/mana efficiency of wincons causing salt is good too.

Here's my issue with rule zero: It disproportionally disadvantages newer players/ players with smaller collections. If I sit down looking to play Myrkul or Tergrid and someone says nope, that's alright because I have other options. But someone who dusts off their 2019 unedited precon and owns no other cards and is told "no fast mana" (i.e. Dockside Extortionist), then what should they do? The last thing I want is someone to tell me to take the most glitzy card, and if I was a new player who got told I couldn't play a certain card (Looking at you, RC, for taking Emrakul away from my 15-yo self), I might just not even bother.

Its a little weird to me that Crim is like "well winter orb is an obvious no go" but then doesn't think that is fair to apply to a lot of other things. With the logic he uses all the decks should be able to pack single target artifact removal that is cheap enough to destroy destroy the orb after 1 or two turns to untap. Its just not fun to warp your deck around that, but for whatever reason he won't expect this for other cards

16:57 Tomer, you like the type of guy that ‘rule 0’ non-basic lands 🤨😂

When I 1st got back into it with some kitchen table players, I got a bunch of cards and started putting together what looked like a fun deck that could win, turned out a made a Izzet control deck, and turned out most of the pod was not fond of heavy control, so that deck only lasted 1 FNM, but I learned. Would have still liked to play it more tho LOL

I think there are definitely areas where players really do have to learn how to use interaction. I don't play commander in person, but I know on historic brawl on Arena, people scoop the second I kill their commander. Idk if newer players just can't handle interaction, but it gets very old.

"We won't ban Armageddon but don't play the card" from the RC is baffling even for someone who's played Commander for 8 years, let alone anyone new.

The only rule zero I reasonably put into play in my local group is that I generally don't want some of the most prevalent two card combos. Stuff like Exquisite Blood and Sanguine Bond. Perfectly happy if you have either of the cards in your deck, preferably not both for the instant kill. I also generally take out Sol Ring from my decks and tell my friends I think the casual game is better without it, but that's just a personal preference and not something I ask them to remove or I won't play

I think Commander is too casual. Rule zero was meant to help EDH, but it has ruined it! I agree with the idea that we need a much more robust ban list in Commander! Rule zero should only be for playing cards that ARE banned, aren't actually commanders, etc. I shouldn't have to ask permission from my opponents to play a card that's legal in a format

I understand that it is very common to dislike counterspells and have felt bummed by them myself... just like any other removal spell. That's the thing people sometimes need to be reminded of, counterspells are just removal like Doom Blade. Counterspells can actually be worse removal because of the timing restriction. You have one moment to counter a spell, you need that card in hand beforehand and commit to not using that mana for a turn cycle in anticipation. Whereas a kill spell can be used any moment over multiple turns and can be drawn anytime after the target has been on board. Honestly, depending on a deck build (and pod play style) counterspells can be viewed as bad removal, especially in a multiplayer format with counterspells being one-for-one removal.

The question of whether or not a typical Commander player should have to put answers in their deck for strategies that wreck them has another layer I don't think you all touched on. The argument is "are they going to go listen to a podcast or watch a video to learn how to deal with it?" My argument is that they should. I've played for decades, and I've had to grow and evolve with all the ways Magic has changed throughout time. There's certainly nuance either way, but training newer players that we're just going to not do a thing because it hurts their strategy, perpetuates the idea that you're also not responsible for how good of a time you have playing Magic. The weight of whether or not a player has a good time should not be placed on their opponents shoulders.

That opening 😂says traveling sucks super hard lol

I want to know if a deck has a easy infinite combo not so i can not play against it but so can know to prepare for it and leave up answers. combos are unique in that they are not telegraphed in any way and cannot be stopped sorcery speed