Excellent job sharing your thoughts and experiences with Deadhouse Gates in a spoiler-free way! Erikson is up there with the best of the best when it comes to writing battle scenes. House of Chains, book 4, acts in part like a sequel to this book. It's not a spoiler to say that the ending of this book has reverberations throughout the rest of the series. I hope you continue enjoying the series!
I just finished Deadhouse Gates in October and share many of your thoughts here. Funny enough when I first picked up Gardens of the Moon ten years ago I really enjoyed that first read-though but for some reason or another I never continued until just this past August when I picked it up again. It's been such a unique reading experience so far. Currently in the starting chapters of Memories of Ice.
I get it. These books are an investment of time and attention. There are some novels that I can blow through in a few days. Deadhouse Gates took me a month to get through, and I really can’t see myself going that much faster. Not every season of life is conducive to spending a month on a novel! Thanks for watching and dropping a comment. 🙏
I'm surprised to hear you felt the Deadhouse Gates fizzled out at the end To me the end of the Chain of Dogs is a nuclear explosion within the fantasy genre Still though, you're spot on saying Book of the Fallen is one story over 10 books Good job
(spoilers for DG and GotM below) Hey James. Thanks for watching and commenting! Your comment re: the Chain of Dogs ending is valid, and it's the unfortunate consequence of doing a spoiler free reading vlog. I actually LOVED the end of Chain of Dogs. I really don't think that particular plot line could have been done any better. As for the other storylines: I liked the end of Mappo and Icarium storyline; Felisin's story didn't have an ending in this novel; and it was really the climax of Kallam's storyline that was disappointed me. I felt like Erikson did the same thing with the Jaghut Tyrant/Lorn storyline in Gardens of the Moon, where there was a big build up, and then an anti-climax. Obviously, there are still people who disagree with this take, but I feel like it's a much less controversial statement than disliking the end of the Chain of Dogs story!
Beard vlog as well.... DG doesn't end like a lot of fantasy books end. AP/Critical Dragon and his conversations with Philip Chase are quite good. There are a lot of opinions on Felesin. But one thing you allude to is the character arcs. Some are resolved in a book, some are spread over several or the entire series, some never do. But the after effects of the events in DG, and elsewhere, ripple throughout the series. But to ask a standard question - Kruppe or Pust?
“Beard vlog.” 😂 it was only when I cut this video together that I realized that it must look like I’m aging in front of your eyes. I’ve saved a lot of the Philip Chase and Critical Dragon videos to a watch later playlist to take a look at as I make it through the series. To answer your question, I’m going Pust. I genuinely laughed out loud at some of his interactions with the Bokharala! As always, thanks for watching and commenting :)
This is a general stylistic choice Erikson uses and it doesn't seem to be working for you: he almost always goes for a super efficient POWERFUL ending, where everything explodes, narritively speaking. So it all simmers slowly with this incredible build up, and when all the pieces are in place and it all converges to a singularity, BOOM. This is true for most of his novels, but not every novel in the series. So while you feel like it fizzles out, and that's of course your subjective experience, for most of us these are some of the most powerful endings in literature. If you can live with this, then Malazan probably won't be your favorite series or anything like that, but it still seems like you are enjoying it greatly and I'd say it is definitely worth continuing, because you get more out of it than just fun and entertainment. Chain of Dogs alone makes one contemplate a lot of things.
Spoilers for the ending of DG: adding to the above, here is my more specific reasoning for why I love this ending (and basically ever MBotF ending) so much: regardless of of everything tied up or whatever, this doesn't really matter to me all that much at this point of the story. The grand narritive is still in its birth and will simmer for a LONG time still. Each book will add significantly to the progression of the overarching story. That said, this book is about loyalty, horrors of war, betrayal and one of my favorite ideas is also how just can a rebellion be (obviously relevant right now, but was just as impactful 3 years ago whrn I first read it). The book builds up the effect of these questions and ideas slowly, steadily and efficiently. In the end, we have built up an understanding or a viewpoint regarding those ideas and questions, so the end is a way to really let it all sink in. We don't need larger plot resolutions or to know where every character is and what they are doing. What we need is a powerful scene or two that is closely related to those ideas explored and that happen naturaly in the way that the plot itself builds to them. Okay time to be more specific and I will give the main example. Coltaine's unwavering loyalty is a huge idea of this book. He WILL bring those refugees to saftey, no matter what. Erikson first stabs us when he shows us how terrible those refugees are and we question this perseverence of the army to save those people. Here is an incling of a broad Malazan theme, namely compassion, but let's leave that one for now. All of this gets heavier and heavier as more and more people are dying and it all seems worthless. In the end they succeed, but the cost is HUGE. Coltaine is not rewarded for his great deed, but is betrayed and brutally murdered together with his whole army, which gets crucified. A brutal, beautiful and powerful end to the main thread in the book. Not all plot threads get resolved, but that was never the point anyways. The Kalam part is very subversive. In your average fantasy novel it should be established who the good guys are and who the bad guys are. Later down the line you might get a twist or two, but it is always very transparent and always very black and white. Kalam's story, and a lot of Gardens, is about subverting this trope. He arrives at Laseen and realizes how futile it would be to kill her, if he can at all. Again, this is a part-way stepping stone of this theme about colonialism and subversion of the black/white fantasy trope, but it is not the end of this idea. Not by far.
Spoilers for the ending of DG: adding to the above, here is my more specific reasoning for why I love this ending (and basically ever MBotF ending) so much: regardless of of everything tied up or whatever, this doesn't really matter to me all that much at this point of the story. The grand narritive is still in its birth and will simmer for a LONG time still. Each book will add significantly to the progression of the overarching story. That said, this book is about loyalty, horrors of war, betrayal and one of my favorite ideas is also how just can a rebellion be (obviously relevant right now, but was just as impactful 3 years ago whrn I first read it). The book builds up the effect of these questions and ideas slowly, steadily and efficiently. In the end, we have built up an understanding or a viewpoint regarding those ideas and questions, so the end is a way to really let it all sink in. We don't need larger plot resolutions or to know where every character is and what they are doing. What we need is a powerful scene or two that is closely related to those ideas explored and that happen naturaly in the way that the plot itself builds to them. Okay time to be more specific and I will give the main example. Coltaine's unwavering loyalty is a huge idea of this book. He WILL bring those refugees to saftey, no matter what. Erikson first stabs us when he shows us how terrible those refugees are and we question this perseverence of the army to save those people. Here is an incling of a broad Malazan theme, namely compassion, but let's leave that one for now. All of this gets heavier and heavier as more and more people are dying and it all seems worthless. In the end they succeed, but the cost is HUGE. Coltaine is not rewarded for his great deed, but is betrayed and brutally murdered together with his whole army, which gets crucified. A brutal, beautiful and powerful end to the main thread in the book. Not all plot threads get resolved, but that was never the point anyways. The Kalam part is very subversive. In your average fantasy novel it should be established who the good guys are and who the bad guys are. Later down the line you might get a twist or two, but it is always very transparent and always very black and white. Kalam's story, and a lot of Gardens, is about subverting this trope. He arrives at Laseen and realizes how futile it would be to kill her, if he can at all. Again, this is a part-way stepping stone of this theme about colonialism and subversion of the black/white fantasy trope, but it is not the end of this idea. Not by far.
(Spoilers ahead) Thanks so much for taking the time to respond so deeply and thoughtfully! One of the challenges of doing these videos as spoiler free is that I can’t be very specific and therefore I completely understand why you might think I disagree with what you’re saying. In fact, I agree with pretty much all of it. The Chain of Dogs story and its “end” was perfect and I wouldn’t change a thing. Also, I don’t have an issue with loose threads, especially not in what’s still early days in a long series. I also understand and appreciate the themes and rationale behind Kallam’s ending. Where I have a hard time is with the narrative structure. Throughout DG, Erikson is building up tension for a big face off between Kallam and Lasseen and once that face off happens, the pay off is… let’s call it a twist. That’s fine, but it kinda feels like Erikson already used that particular trick at the end of Gardens of the Moon. In that book, the Jaghut Tyrant is built up throughout the book to be this huge existential threat, but in the end he’s taken out in about a paragraph, because actually, surprise, that’s not the real threat. Kinda feels like Erikson used the same trick twice in a row. That said, in the grand scheme of things those are really minor gripes in what has otherwise been a revelation for me as far as Fantasy series go. Again, thanks so much for taking the time to share your thoughts!
@@ADudeWhoReads oh yeah that greatly clarifies your thoughts! From Gardens and this video I built up this misunderstanding. Honestly, this is a far mildler gripe than I thought, but very fair of course (though I DO disagree with the take a little bit haha). Then I'm glad you still enjoyed the most important bits (IMO of course). I'm not going to promise he will never do a more unsatifsying "thematic" twist like that ever again, he totally might or might not, but at least I'm confident you will find most endings good enough. Enjoy the series (or not haha)!
@@berserker8884 Hah. I think going forward these will likely be spoiler videos. It’s the only way to have a conversation where we’re not talking past each other. :)
Glad that you loved this book even more. Now let me just tell you that you are an outlier regarding the ending of DG, as people universally love the ending of this book. Even people who did not enjoy this book that much, still love the ending. In fact people hype up others reading this book saying that you will be blown away by the ending. But it's ok to not feel like everyone else, as we see wildly differing opinions on the books even among fans. Just shows that different things appeal to or connect to different people. Now it is IMPOSSIBLE to discuss the ending of the book in the scope of a non spoiler video. I would request you to make a spoiler video for the same with your thoughts, even if you talk about just the ending, as we will be able to discuss much more freely there. Still not going into any spoilers, I am still curious whether you at least liked the ending of the Chain of Dogs, since that is one of the best, brutal, heartbreaking and still beautiful endings of a storyline I have ever read. I can understand being frustrated with the endings of the Icarium and Mappo plot, and may be even the ending of Kalam's plot, but at least in case of Kalam's plot, instead of a bombastic ending, the plot twist and reframing the character of the person he spoke with, has a much better impact. Again, can't go into more details in this non spoiler video. If you come to any of the discord servers, we can discuss in much more depth. Hope you love Memories of Ice much more, and I can say for sure that at least in that book the ending will not disappoint.
Thanks for coming back and watching again! I fully understand how difficult this is to discuss without getting into spoilers. I didn't even want to mention whose plot I was referring to in the video as just naming a character already tells you that they at least survived to the end of the book... I really struggled with whether to make this video with or without spoilers. To answer your question: I was FULLY satisfied with the end of the Chain of Dogs story, and that story to me, was the best developed, by far of the four (?) main storylines. The storylines I struggled with were Kallam's and Fiddler's. Not because I didn't see the importance of how it ended, or the reasoning behind it, but rather because it left me feeling that all of the build up in the rest of the book was rather abruptly deflated (similar to how I felt about the Jaghut Tyrant at the end of GotM). Mappo and Icarium's story also seemed a bit circular (kinda the point, I guess), but there at least, I felt there was some really great character development, and the conclusion to that storyline was always a logical possibility. Maybe I do just need to do a Spoiler video and be done with it :) By the way, I did check out the Discord servers you suggested, but I need to get into a rhythm of when to jump on. I think right after finishing a book and recording my thoughts is the best time! So, I suppose now!
@@ADudeWhoReadsReading your comments on the other comments. So will just go into SPOILERS below: I am glad that you loved the ending of Chain of Dogs. For most people that acts as the main conclusion of the book with a beautiful ending. The whole journey of the Chain of Dogs is a masterpiece in literature. I can see that you appreciated the cyclical ending for Icarium and Mappo and their character development. Their character interactions and Mappo's inner turmoil were some of my favorite moments in the book. Regarding the ending of Felisin's storyline, yes it is "to be continued", and that will be the case for some storylines always, so better get used to it now. Coming to the ending of Kalam. Just think about the ending of GOTM with the Azath coming out of nowhere with no explanation, which made that kind of a deus ex machina, and a bit unsatisfactory. But after finishing this book, you have a much better concept and understanding of the Azath (you will never understand them fully), and now if you think back to it, the Azath ending of GOTM makes much more sense and feels little more satisfactory. So I will just tell you that regarding the face off of Kalam and you-know-who, what you came to know is not everything. You will get much more context on it in Memories of Ice, which will retroactively make this ending much more satisfying. And Fiddler didn't go back to the Bridgeburners, he joined Tavore's new army for putting down the rebellion as an unnamed soldier, which is like a new beginning for him.
@@SouravUldyssian I hear ya. It’s part of the challenge of sharing thoughts on these books as I go (and also part of the fun). Obviously, I don’t know what I don’t know, so I can only give knee jerk reactions. I’ll be curious to see how these reactions age as I read more. I may very well rewatch these videos in a year’s time and be eating crow! However, I will maintain that even though I now know more about the Azath, it hasn’t changed my feelings on the ending of GotM (specifically, how “easily” Lorn’s master gambit came apart). But hey, that’s just me! 🙂
@@ADudeWhoReads If not possible for this book, at least start doing spoiler videos from next book onwards. Because there will rarely be any audience for watching a detailed vlog of a 3rd book of a series, if they haven't already read it. So from here onwards, almost all of your viewers will be those who have already read the books. So non spoiler video won't matter much at that point.
Oh boy! If you enjoyed the battle in DG that much then that is very promising to hear in terms of how you'd find the rest of the series. I personally while enjoying them in DG found it really hard to navigate and conceptualise the battles? Also yeah, I found that characters were far more identifiable, it was not GotM where I knew someone has "the assasin" or "mage" or whatever, there were a lot more differences. I will say I reccently read the start of GotM again, and it is like putting colour on a painting, scenes had a humour to them that I did not pick up the first time, characters were far more enjoyable and identifiable.
(light spoilers ahead) What I liked about the battle at the end of Book 3 was that it wasn't just head-to-head slaughter (although I appreciate the way Erikson writes head-to-head battle, with all its brutality and none of the romance of some other writers), and it wasn't just the heroes being saved at the last minute by a wizard with a reinforcing army (sorry Tolkien), but it was won the way a lot of battles through history were won: yes by the soliders, but also largely by the engineers. As for your note about re-reading GotM and seeing nuances you didn't see before, I have no doubt. I'm only at Book 3, and I'm already planning to re-read this series, because I KNOW I'll develop a new appreciation for it.
I read it in...July? I think. Anyway, I thought the ending was really good, but I can see how there were some...abrupt conclusions to some arcs. But, now that I am reading book four, which picks back up in Seven Cities where Deadhouse Gates took place, I don't think it's a real issue. You are right in assuming that because it's one part in a ten-book series that Erikson will continue to fill things in down the road. It's a great series so far. Memories of Ice is even better than Deadhouse Gates IMO, so you've got a lot to look forward to.
I have heard from multiple people that Memories of Ice is the best book in the series, so I'm going in with very high expectations. We'll see what happens. :) Thanks for watching and commenting.
Moi is generally most well liked by your average fantasy fan but among the actual malazan community it does still on average place the highest since its a hard book to dislike but there are books that more people have as there number 1. Personally for me 1. Book 8 and 10 2. Book 9 3.Book 7 4. book 5 5.book 6 6. Book 3 and 4 7.book 2 8. Book 1
@danielgwynne7266 are you telling me that the first two books, which are the only ones I've read so far, and which have already blown me away, are the WEAKEST of the ten???
@@ADudeWhoReads good thing about this series is that everyone's order of fav books looks vastly different. book 1 and 9 are the two weakest for me and 3, 6 and 10 my top 3 but they are all great tbh, not perfect, there are some issues as you point out, but the books still craft a beautiful whole
@@sciz thanks for the perspective! I’ve enjoyed this series so much so far that I’m just going to enjoy the ride and stretch it out as long as I can :) I still can’t believe it took me so long to get around to reading it.
*Spoilers* Its so funny what works for some people leaves others feeling cold. I'll never forget the ending of DG. I still tear up when I think about the Jaghut ghost who shows up to witness Duiker's crucifixion (whether it was hallucinated or not). This man who has witnessed the entire Chain of Dogs, including all 10k of their crucifixions before his own, and someone is there for him. I still tear up thinking about Nil and Nether losing their minds, screaming and tearing at themselves as they watch the crows struggle to reach Coltaine to take his soul. The cowardice and betrayal after Coltaine gets all the way to the finish line. It's all so brutal and tragic and devastating. Duiker is an all-time great character for me. Leave it to an anthropologist to make a historian basically Jason Bourne as he uses all of his knowledge of other cultures to blend in and sneak through their camps. Glad you enjoyed it! It truly is just the tip of the spear, and the writing just gets better and better as you go.
Indeed! Although I’ve quickly realized that by doing a spoiler free video I’ve given the wrong impression about what my issues with the ending of DG actually are… I thought everything to do with the Chain of Dogs was beautifully done. My biggest issue was with Kallam’s ending. And while I understand why it was done that way, I just don’t like HOW it was done…
(Light SPOILER) One thing I would say is that: Were they able to fulfill the task? YES. Did they "fail"? YES Let that seep in because you can peel deeper layers of a Malazan book and you'll find it more beautiful than the surface level information presented to you. The rest of the books will be heavier on the exploration of themes, too. If you wish to talk about it, we have a readalong discord. :)
Thanks for the comment! I think I'm going to have to do a spoiler video, because as has been mentioned by a few people in these comments already, without going into spoilers, it's hard to really talk about what I thought worked, and what didn't. Let me try to phrase it this way: I don't have a problem with WHAT happened at the end of Deadhouse Gates. I have an issue with HOW it unfolded, and more specifically the pacing of the resolution (and let's call it for two out of the four storylines). On a different note, drop me the link to the discord server. I've gotten a few recommended to me, but never hurts to check out another!
Alright so I will say first and foremost that your opinion on the ending is valid, however I'd also just say that Deadhouse Gate's ending is generally REALLY beloved in general. I'd need to hear your spoiler thoughts because I THINK I know what your issues may have been in terms of you wanting a convergence or some climax that was halted short? I will say the ending in the most non-spoiler way I can give served the symbology and theme of the book as a whole and that I personally felt the ending served its thematic arc perfectly. I'd love to talk to you in the replies to this comment spoiler wise as it is a bit hard to do here
(SPOILER WARNING FOR THE REST OF THIS COMMENT) First off, thanks for watching to the end of the video! As for my issue with the ending, you pretty much hit the nail on the head. And it was interesting to me that it happened in almost every storyline. For instance, Kallam’s story was building to a climax that resolved itself by him… changing his mind. Felisin’s arc either ended after Part 3 (one way of looking at it), or we never actually saw any of the conclusion in DG. Fiddler goes through everything he goes through in order to go back to where he was. Icarian and Mappo also kind of revert back to where they were narratively (although character wise there’s undeniable growth). In short, the character arcs and the themes are explored beautifully, but the narrative arcs end abruptly. It’s funny because you can argue that this is a better refection of life. Not every journey ends in climax. But that’s not what I’d expect in a Fantasy book and based on everything I know about story and writing, this breaks all the rules. But maybe that’s what makes it great… Erikson is the most literary Fantasy author I’ve ever read and maybe I just need to acknowledge that. I mean, I wouldn’t have thought twice about this ending had it been in a literary fiction novel.
@@ADudeWhoReads thanks for the reply, I can totally understand where you are coming from. I am curious what you thought of coltaine and the chain of dog's ending in general as that is what most consider "the ending." Personally this book revolved around the idea of children caught in the conflict of war. Lull has the quote: "That's a succinct summary of humankind, I'd say. Who needs tomes and volumes of history? Children are dying. The injustices of the world hide in those three words. Quote me, Duiker, and your work's done." Over the course of this book we follow the chain of dogs over the whole span of a continent and it wears on its soldiers and people in general, so much so that the pain and constant horror they have lived through have led to some questioning their humannities and what their purposes were in life. After so much horror witnessed, what was the purpose of living in such a world, especially when you have become desensitised to it. We then have the quote: "How to answer this? I must know, Duiker, else I go mad." "Sleight of hand," the historian said. The meaning and drive of fighting on did not have some complx answer, their purposes and reasoning to keep fighting remained in the fact that "children were dying" This results in coltaine sacrificing him and his whole army so the youth may make it past Aren. In regards to Felisin, while her personal story ended in part 3 and will be followed up on in the future. A moment that was SO important was "She rarely speaks. Yet when she does…a gift with words, Heboric. A poet's eye. In some ways, as I might have become, given the freedom…" this was after Heboric had just asked Felisin what she had named her adoptive child after having turned away from the conflict and war. Suggesting that Felisin named the child after herself. The theme in many of these storylines is that through the horrors of war and wherever we are in life, we each have a purpose that is universal in each of us. To see the children before us and find recognition in the fact that we have the ability in the end t o fight for their better future. Not sure if I have worded this perfectly but just a quick summary
As for Mappo and Icarium yeah, it kinda is fustrating here as we are caught in a loop that they themselves have been in for centuries. I personally really liked Kalam's ending not sure if you picked up on details with what Laseen suggested, but the whole situation made total logical sense in the end, and I personally enjoyed Kalam being able to make the right pragmatic decision versus holding such a silly grudge that he felt he had to kill Laseen despite everything suggesting he should not. And yeah, overall I will say some characters such as Fidler really are more so "moving along" to get from A-B in some of these books, there are important aspects but he did not feel very central to the narrative. However I will say that unlike Gardens of the moon, the series is going to start becoming incredibly more thematic and it may not be apparent now as it gradually layers and layers as the series pogresses where at the very end Erikson has constructed such a deep commentary over the course of almost 12,000 pages
(spoilers ahead) I completely understand and agree with everything you've written here. To be clear, the Chain of Dogs story was beautiful. If the entire book had just been that story, I still would have loved it (maybe even moreso). The hope, the despair, the sacrifice, the love. In case it wasn't clear from the video, my admiration of Erikson is enormous. And no, when I'm referring to issues with the ending, I'm NOT referring to the end of that story. In fact, I don't think there was any other possible ending for that story that wouldn't have felt like it was undermining all of the suffering that had gone before. As for Felisin, a phenomenal tragic character, and your quote is an excellent summation of her personal tragedy. But it doesn't change the fact that her storyline is basically left off in a "To Be Continued."
(more spoilers) And just to close the loop here. I saw the importance of what happened between Kallam and you-know-who when the confrontation finally happened, but it all just felt a little too... easy. And finally, Mappo and Icarium's ending is probably my second favourite after the Chain of Dogs, because while it is circular, that resolution was something that was always a possibility, and whether it's deliberate or not, there's definitely a Quixotic angle to that relationship which is made all the more satisfying given how it ends. So, from a purely mathematical perspective, I was content with two out of four endings. I didn't hate the other two, but I was frustrated by them. But again, that doesn't change the fact that this is still a wonderful book.
I read Gardens of the Moon going on a couple years ago at this point and liked but didn’t love it, but I’ve always heard the series takes a big jump in quality from the second book onward and I’ve just been putting off getting to Deadhouse Gates because I’m worried I might binge read all nine remaining books and neglect my other reading haha probably an unfounded fear! I’m glad you enjoyed it! Maybe I’ll finally give this a go as my next fantasy book after Tigana :)
I do think DG is better than GotM for all the reasons I stated in the video. That said, I still loved Gardens of the Moon, so I'm super curious to know if someone who was lukewarm on Gardens can be converted by Deadhouse Gates. Also, let me know what you think of Tigana. I've never read any Guy Gavriel Kay, but he's been recommended by a lot of folks I trust, and Tigana seems like the place to start. Thanks for watching and commenting!!!
@@EricMcLuen I have yet to read those but I am excited to with how much I'm enjoying Tigana! I haven't found Tigana all that slow paced, there's an emphasis on character work and world building but it's all done in such an artful, organic way with prose that jumps off the page. At the same time important and thrilling events are still happening all the time! Ones that wouldn't be half as thrilling if Kay wasn't putting so much care into connecting me to his characters and setting :) I feel I've stumbled upon a treasure trove of a specific kind of fantasy I really, really enjoy with Kay and I'm looking forward to reading my way through his works any time I'm in the mood for a layered and beautifully written fantasy story.
@@ADudeWhoReads I'm as curious as you are to see what I'll think of it! Though in all honesty I'm almost sure DG will connect for me, I'm too much of a sap for epic fantasy and I already loved Erikson's prose in the first book so it's a shoe in! I'm about a third of the way through Tigana and it's smooth sailing so far, like I said in another comment, it's got a strong focus on character but the intrigue, tension and overall plot premise are really rich and full of thrills to me, and I haven't found it all that slow myself-though everyone's different and that's the spice of life and book discussions! I'll let you know my final thoughts and I look forward to hearing what you have to say about any of his books as he's already an author I am excited to read more of!
