9:37 "If you look at Bolognese fencing-" Fuck me, now I'm imagining two guys going at each other with whopping big sausage sticks. Had a bit of a cheeky laugh.
andrewkgsmith He's easily beat me right now. And lets face it, beating an overweight, out of shape middle aged man who hasn't fought seriously in the last 12 months because of a back issue isn't going to prove much about the system...
Honestly, the whole german school/italian school is something we should have left behind us by now - it's terrible system to classify martial arts. If HEMA keeps using it, it'll run into the same thing chineese martial arts did with the whole internal/external split, or wudang/shaolin classification. Funnily enough, the country that got it right is Japan - you have schools founded by individual masters that then evolve and potentially split. Studying Lichtenauer tradition according to, say, Dobringer, or studying Fiore or Silver is much more descriptive, precise and historically correct than just italian/german/english school.
+Taxtro It is a long time ago, but I think it was the vid Matt is referring to. There a guy with the nickname standinggunner made a comment which Oz didn't like at all.
+Matthew “Arkhane” Brown WHO WON? WHO'S NEXT? YOU DECIDE!
9 лет назад
I don't know if you have a lot of problem doing what you do and giving objective critics over other people's work on youtube, but I just wanted to say that you are admired for that. Facts will prevail over myth.
Damn. That was really impressive, Matt. Your familiarity with so many different sources is something to behold. You should do fight choreography for a Highlander show with the fighters changing techniques across the centuries and naming their systems like Cary Elwes and Mandy Patinkin in Princess Bride. I guess they'd need to change weapons too. Whatever. I'd watch.
What this seems to be a great example of is the fact that people should refrain from taking a concrete stance on something and making such definite statements until they've done the hell out of their homework. Thanks Matt.
standingunder Please wait until youve seen a response to Matt before judging whether he or I haven't done our homework. Matt is very good at sounding informed on all sorts of things. Doesn't necessarily make them accurate though. It'd be a shame to make a judgement on objective facts based on someone being charismatic on video.
EnglishMartialArts Except that the facts are accurate in this case :-) There is a fair amount of variation between English backsword sources - George Silver is not much like Swetnam or Wylde. And the later backsword systems are where early military sabre comes from. The numbering of cuts and guards doesn't change the system, it just makes it easier to teach and therefore more efficient to convey. In practical terms there is no tangible difference between late backsword and early sabre - they have the same guards, the same cuts, the same footwork....
I've only just watched this video over a year after it was published, so not sure how many people will see this comment. Matt, Paul Wagner from Stoccata in Australia came to England in 2013 and won the Gloriana Cup, the British Federation backsword/broadsword championship that I believe you've also won. With the agreement of the English hosts, the championship was next run in Australia, and expanded to incorporate the World Broadsword Championships (a real 19th century event last held in Sydney, Australia in 1891 - yes, the last official World Broadsword Champion was an Australian). The championship was dominated by Stoccata members and particularly by practitioners of Silver. Paul eventually won it again, narrowly defeating my top Silver fencer. My Silver guys cleanly went through the military sabre guys, though a lot of that has to do with the sabre guys' lack of familiarity with Silver, particularly with Open Fight. I would also say that the way Martin does Silver is an outlier that bears little resemblance to other interpretations of Silver and to later systems. Check some of the WBC fights out on the Stoccata youtube channel.
I have a Schiavona, which is essentially a basket-hilted backsword. Mine has a fairly long blade - longer than my British military sabers, but not quite as long as a French cuirassier sword - yet it is very well balanced and feels quicker than my British military sabers (mid-1800s styles). You mention that the basket hilt limits hand placement, but with my Schiavona, I can comfortably change my grip to a thrusting fencing grip.
I'm teaching my wife some basic escrima and I use the 6 numbered blows and 6 numbered blocks I was taught. I like saying Strike #2 instead of Left Fendente for the Right hand.
Good point about the numbered system when learning sword. I've trained in German long sword but really think the Bologenese side sword looks awesome, but while trying to understand it the names of guards and strikes slow me down significantly.
Are all historical basket hilts as restrictive? Schiavona, for example, seem to have some comparatively large guards. I think I've even seen some that would allow a user to wrap their forefinger around the ricasso, but that may be me lumping stuff together.
As a swordnoob... 🤓 Roworth/Angelo System of British Military #Saber Fencing is so easy to learn! 💎👌👍 Plus is so much effective just by looking at the sparring in the internet.
Please!!!!! make a video on single handed sword vs two handed or longsword. I can't figure it out. Its a tough match up. Also Maybe a video on the sidesword
I am excited to get my official Scholagladitoria t-shirt. I will wear it during sparring sessions at my dojo. It will be sure to get attention and some more viewers here.
Would you say that the named guards in medieval longsword descriptions serves the same purpose as the numbered cuts? Also, would military sabre be easier to learn because the original text is much closer to modern English? Just a thought.
General John Gaspard Marchant (spell?) expected the Heavy and Light Cavalries to use exactly the same method with both their respective weapons (the 1796 Sword & the 1796 Sabre).
Do we know the circulation and audience size of these treatises historically? I'm wondering whether you'd find a copy in the back pocket of every British infantryman, or if it was a niche product for just a few with a hobbyist's interest. I can kind of picture Sharpe (sorry, but I did watch it because of your channel :) ) happening upon an ambitious officer reading one in his tent and delivering a pithy one liner about book learning.
HebaruSan I'd say the frequency of pictures and the language used in a manual would tell you who it was more intended for. If the writer uses simple and few words with a ton of pictures, it was likely a reference for a trainer of levy soldiers, but if it uses flowery language with excessive written description it was likely a hobbyist/nobleman's training manual. That is of course generally speaking, but depending on the era literacy wasn't very common except among the upper echelons of society. The guy may make a one-liner about book learning, but then he has to go back to the levies and teach them for the millionth time that you should step *with* the swing, not after it.
This is my 1st sword. The plastic came out of the scabbard with 3m tape attached to the plastic. I thought i ruined the scabbard but I like how the sword fits better now.
it is elitism. Being easier is always better as long as there aren't sacrifices. What happens is people get upset that someone with less time invested in something than them is better, so they feel the need to make all this shit up to justify their time spent
***** that does depend on the "martial art" though, because technically speaking, boxing and wrestling are martial arts, seeing as "martial art" just means combat art. But I'll give you that yeah, boxing, kickboxing, and probably muay thai could beat most traditional eastern martial arts with a lot less training. I'd be interested to see wrestling vs things like judo though, as wrestling as an actual fighting thing over a performance thing is mostly grappling, is it not?
***** Not particularly, in a "real" fight, I'm assuming we mean not a sports fight, judo and boxing would probably work fine because they're decent training. But, all bets are off in most "real" fighting situations anyway. I would keep in mind however, things like judo were designed with "real" fighting as an actual situation you would use them. I'd be more inclined to say modernised martial arts, or the ones designed for sport fighting against the same style are the useless ones in real fights honestly.
Being easy to learn for a martial art/ combat sport can be a positive, if one wants to feel improvement in a short period of time. However if the goal is to win competitions and get good at fighting one wants hard training that pushes
At 6:42: "Not only that, but a certain captain Alfred Hutton (someone who, I believe, that Austwick probably heard of) actually wrote a system of grips and closings based on George Silver's own treatise." That mellow voice! Matt, you should be selling sweets! Your remind me of Terry Jones in the "Crunchy Frog" Monty Python's spoof.
Well, military sabre is incredibly simplistic. There are no techniques in it. You learn how to fight with it in a day, then it's all about making your strikes more efficient, learning to feel distance etc. While in certain things you learn the basics before you try to learn the complex stuff, there's just flat out no complexity in 19th century military sabre. I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's not so much about one system being easier to learn, but it being stripped down to an extreme degree. Does it mean it's more limited and thus, technically, worse? I couldn't tell you.
Last week during Sabre training I was actually using one of the backswords that didn't have a bar on the hilt removed. So I technically sparred back-sword/broadsword vs Sabre and nobody even noticed. (Or maybe you did)
I am torn between the Thompson military saber attempt and the Patton 1920 (I think) cavalry thrusting short sword. And suggestions for an all around good defensive tool?
The Patton sword is really just a cavalry poker, not great for use on foot. For personal defence on foot I'd recommend something more compact, such as a cutlass.
Thank you for this. I've watched both Martin's original video and his subsequent response to this one and, as a total layman to the subject, it seems to me that the arguments here hold water pretty well against the riposte. I freely admit to ignorance of HEMA, I study kendo, at least I dabble, and I have some minor experience of Chinese swordsmanship although I'm not claiming even basic proficiency, so I may be unqualified to comment here but my instinct is that claiming outright superiority for any system or weapon needs to be treated with a grain of salt. In every martial art there is a basic system taught for ease of training and instruction but masters of any weapon system end up refining and developing these techniques to deal with the demands of real sparring and combat. Experience and mastery of a weapon seem ultimately more important than the system or even the weapon itself. With my knowledge of the katana for example, I have no doubt I would be cut to ribbons in seconds by an expert in sabre, backsword, rapier or whatever- because I'm just not that good yet and my skill with any weapon is inferior to that of someone with greater training- also in any weapon. I don't con myself with any silly assumption that the (actually non-existent) superiority of the mighty katana would somehow compensate for my lack of skill any more than I'd make the dopey assumption that "rapiers are rubbish" or whatever. I do imagine however, that an 8th Dan kendo practitioner would probably give a pretty good reckoning against a similar-ranking master in any other weapon because of the high level of skill required to master the weapon at that level but the fact that the techniques are Japanese and the weapon a katana would doubtlessly offer no advantage against an 8th Dan equivalent rapierist, longswordsman or sabrist. It seems fairly logical, all systems tend to incorporate similar guards, attacks and defences just because that is what is humanly possible. Most swords, despite clear differences based on their design and purpose, tend to be used in very broadly similar ways. I watch HEMA fights and see clear parallels with kendo techniques because, whether Japanese or European, a two-handed cut-and-thrust sword can only really be used in a set number of ways- at least initially. It makes perfect sense therefore, at least to my fairly ignorant mind, that the sabre ultimately has everything the backsword has, give the similarity of the weapons. Why not? As for the simpler training systems that make military drilling easier, so what? Surely almost all martial arts are taught this way at the beginning. More advanced techniques develop once the basics have been mastered, I haven't grasped (and it could be my fault I admit) why the backsword system is so innately superior right off the bat. Surely it also takes time to become good at this too? Martin's counter-video to this one is very enjoyable and informative but doesn't really seem that convincing- to this self-confessed ignoramus at least.
In my small club we do mostly sabre, smallsword backsword and spada da lato, we tend to gravitate more and more toward sabre and smallsword now, also because...sabre seems to beat any other one handed single cutting sword style, hands down, including backsword
I was not aware about the distinction between those two in ways of different systems, i rather thought they are seen as one system for different kind of weapons evolution wise, if that makes any sense. I got a question based on Your shoutout to the backsword fighters of now. Do You have some interesting story about a duel or a group encounter with this 2 weapons in one of your big historical books that I'm to lazy to read, but grateful that You do :) ?
i wanted to practice military sabre sparing, do you recommend any books for me to practice with, i dont have any hema places in my aria that train un experienced people under 18
As an avid HEMA practitioner and athlete there's a flaw with claiming that backsword is worse than saber based on subjective tournament results. When people live and die it's quite a bit easier to judge who won. Not to say one or the other is better but that is certainly not a way to judge which is a more effective system. (P.S. I think they're so similar that this argument is quite preposterous).
so about that backsword competition you won... what were the criteria for the weapon used? could you use your sabre gymnasium or did you have to have another configuration of grip and blade?
Given the weight of my Windlass Scottish Backsword it might be a more deadly weapon if the guard is used for bludgeoning, than if used for cut and thrust (jk) ;)
Enoch Tuong Funny thing is that the balance is quite nice. It even seems to be within the range for historical weight, though admittedly at the high end. I'd just need to develop arms like a stevedore in order to actually use the thing properly.
Are there any competitions that actually do pit asymmetric weapons against each other? Rapier vs saber vs backsword ect? From what you said at the end there I'm assuming you meant you used a backsword like a saber and one with it.
George Silver's system uses the point plenty. It's a misconception to think Silver focused excessively on cuts. Just look at Silver's advantage for how to oppose the rapier with his short sword (a basket-hilt sword with a 37-40in blade). Silver's short sword was a sort of hybrid of the rapier and backsword. I do suspect Silver's short sword would have the advantage over the military saber, assuming a 37in blade for the former and a 33in blade for the latter. Obviously, it depends on the exact model of saber, but reach and a full hand protection constitute an advantage.
Benjamin Abbott I feel like I have to point out that 19th century British sabres actually have great hand protection, some of the best hand protection you can get without becoming as restrictive as a full basket hilt. They have very full dish guards. Earlier models though, like th 1796, have only a knuckle bar, and thus don't feature as many guards with the hand exposed.
I just use arming sword with my mortuary sword, won a competition with it, thatz a backsword, i basically modified the techniques for the more enclosed hilt and it works fine
So, what I am taking away from this is people with hair use backsword, whereas people without it use saber... In fairness, this does explain why I always trained with saber...
Killjoy Changing theory on use and design (and frankly what's fashionable) play a significant role in weapon choice and design. Besides, this discussion seems to be more about the system of teaching and use than the weapons themselves; backswords and sabers have a huge amount of overlap in terms of their overall design and handling characteristics.
I have a interesting question what sword would you carry that you already own for on the street defense currently assuming wearing swords today were in fashion? I saw that you did a video asking people what there's would be but I'm very interested to know if you would use Saber or Rapier?
My friends and I study all our military sabre from your videos, solo drills, footwork and attacking with military sabre. What books do you suggest I buy for sabre pratice? And do you have any sabre practice videos I've missed?
I had the pleasure of fighting against a polish sabre-ist while I am trained in Scottish Broadsword and found it was roughly even. Mainly because the styles are similar but different at the same time. He left himself open with stuff that`s basic for us but due to his style being unorthodox to me, threw me a bit. But I`m slightly biased and I would say broadsword was slightly better : P
I agree and recently as I have fought one of my friends who just a saber, it threw me off having a curved blade. However as I have fought against it the curved blade doesn't bother me as much.
backsword/sabre is silvers close fight at the half or quarter sword. "seeking to cross him still in his playing as you may, whereby you shall force him to fly, or else to stand to the proof of his backsword play" open ward and true guardant (hanging guard) are two sides of the same coin. the lofty lyings above the head, point down to enter into distance under cover of your hanging guard, gathering on your opponent to win the place of him to strike or thrust home, as well as retreat sliding back under the hanging after an attack as later backsword still did, "the three fold defence: warding the blow, breaking or putting by the thrust, flying back under your hanging ward" in defence, point up, to strike or thrust or ward as he enters into distance, gaining you the place, on his stepping forward seeking to attack you. see youtube "french saber fencing c 1880" for possibly silvers change from hanging to open, although i dont know if the hand would be high enough or those blows strong enough to be silvers open fight proper since one can bring the hand back around the head for a stronger blow in the change, rather than keeping it forward as shown in the video, for a weaker cut that would however be a quicker repost. variable fight is used similiar to the german nachreisin or travelling after during the opponents withdrawal or if he strikes or thrust short, or possibly if he tries to use feints and doubling. "he that goes back with some blow or thrust, must be followed with the variable and uncertain handling else should you be a mark to your enemy and too slow in motion" and "In the variable play you drive him to his shifts, changing yourself into sundry kinds of blows thrusts and lying which you must not stay upon (the italians did stand to their stocatta and passatas which silver doesnt approve of,) seeking to cross him in still in your playing as you may, whereby you shall force him to fly or else to stand to the proof of his backsword play" which brings us full circle back to close fight. he also had forehand wards and wrist blows ,traversing, as well as keeping your space narrow and crossing his point, ie engaging, all this is also in backsword/sabre. the conclusion is the demise and degeneration from an ancient english and probably scottish/celtic military martial art from before the 16th century, frenchified, italianated and hungarianised to a sabre military system by the 18th century, to a civilian first blood duelling system by the 20th century, untill finally becoming a foil/epee/sabre sport in the 21st century, all quotes are from thornborow which was annexed to Brief Instructions Upon My Paradoxes Of Defence and was clearly someone the mauscript was passed onto and was an inheritor and practitioner of silvers true fight, which is mostly ignored for some unknown reason as are matheys comments, also annexed to the manuscript.
Anybody else see the thumbnail and think of Harry Enfield and Chums? "Oi! You! No! Hula Hoops are round. They'll stay round and they'll be round forever!"
Aren't they all kinda interchangeable? Like you could pick up a backsword and use it with a saber fighting system and vice versa? I know practically nothing about one handed sword style, but from what ive seen they all share elements, and as you say one is just the later evolution of the other. Its like saying Italian longsword is better than German, its not better or worse its just different. I suppose everyone is bias to the style they practice
I've always wondered, does military sabre fall more under the umbrella of HEMA or Classical Fencing? Or is it the red headed stepchild of the fencing world?
Sam Langley The sabre done in Classical Fencing is more like Italian duelling sabre, which is a derivative of Italian military sabre. However, British military sabre is more or less a derivative of 18th century backsword, so definitely HEMA. Though you could argue that Classical Fencing is a branch of HEMA itself.
In kendo, Open Guard (called Jodan) is a recognized effective fighting guard and is preferred by a skilfull minority of fencers in the Kendo community who specialize in it to devastating effect.
