The story surrounding that secret recording of Hitler's speech really is a fascinating piece of history that we unfortunately didn't really have the space to get into in this episode. It is thanks to Thor Damen that we have them. Apparently when the SS guards realized what he was doing they silently signaled a cutthroat gesture to him. The rest of the story you'll have to look up yourself. The recording itself is very easy to find on RU-vid so go check it out if you haven't heard it already, the softness of Hitler's voice really will surprise you. Something else may surprise you, but it really shouldn't by now. We have rules of conduct. Please keep to them when commenting: community.timeghost.tv/t/rules-of-conduct/4518
While listening to a recording is informational, your programs have become more educational, at least to me. Please do a special report on this secret recordings...
If you haven't already read it, I recommend you to read Marshall Mannerheim's Memoires. Yes, they are subjective, of course, but they also give you a good picture of one of the most important period in Finland's history: the period from 1917 until 1945.
It also shows the complete lack of intelligence the germans had of soviet matters. "If a general had come to me and said "the soviets have 35000 tanks", i would've declared him insane. Yet here were are, 35000 confirmed tank kills later, _and they still have tanks_" For reference, that's more then half of what the entire axis would produce during the war, this early in the war- the total would rise to triple that for the USSR alone.
Fun fact: 325 jews were fighting in the Finnish army during the Continuation War while they were fighting side by side with german troops. There were even field synagogs in the presence of german troops.
Well, they would've faced similar treatment as the baltic people. Persecution, mass deportations, executions & living in horrible conditions at collective farms as 2nd class citizens.
Yeah, it's like Soviets: "Hey, we totally took over this place, you're welcome to join us! If you wanna remain Finns, you can leave." Finns: "Thanks, bye!" Soviets: "... well crap."
I see now how one could not want to side with Germany, although knowing now what the Soviet Government was doing previously to WWII to it's own citizens. ( The Gulag) being neutral between two monsters would be a very tough situation.
Calling Finland Fascist for allying the Nazis is like calling the USSR Capitalist for allying with the U.K. and USA. Allies of convenience does not mean ideological allies, just look at Bulgaria for an example.
or UK and USA being Stalinists. To put it more on same frame of "you allied with a mass murderer". Yeah we Finns did. So did freaking everybody. Since one major player on both main sides was a mad mass murdering dictator. Only about clean people in this conflict were the neutrals so far away everyone left them alone. So say South Americans and some Africans as far as I understand. Oh and those neutrals who just got run over immediately. They also didn't ally with mass murderer, instead they got conquered by a mass murderers. Everyone else was allied to mass murdering Germans and/or mass murdering Japanese or allied with Mass murdering Soviets.
@Fabian Kirchgessner After a failed Communist coup attempt in the 1920s in Bulgaria, there were persistent rumours that the police fed some of the participants alive into a furnace in headquarters. I don't think it was proved but certainly some of the arrested were never seen alive later. Later an arrested Communist leader, Traicho Kostov, was tortured, then taken back to his cell. The police took him out for another session and he managed to break away and flung himself down two or three storeys in a suicide attempt. He survived but the spinal injuries left him hunchbacked. Fascist - I would say so.
As a Finn I have to say that this was an exceptionally good, objective summary of how Finland managed the situation after the Winter War up to 1942. Great work guys!
Wrong! The winter war was already over. This was a new war and Finns were the friends and allies of the Nazi Nation! Finnish President Carl Gustaf Mannerheim named the Nazi soldiers in a letter to Adolf Hitler: "Our German brothers-in-arms..." Obvious, Finland was an ally of the criminal Nazi nation and also took part in the raid on the Soviet Union in 1941. The Finns fought side by side with these criminal mass murderers. Finland did this to conquer territory. Apparently Finland not only wanted the lost territories of the Winter War of 1940, but also wanted to take other territories away from the Soviets. The Finnish parliament declared that the aim of the war was to restore the areas lost during the winter war and to gain more areas in the east in order to create a Greater Finland. President Ryti said this to the Finnish Parliament in 1941. By September 1941, the Finns recaptured the territories lost in the Winter War. However, the Finnish Army continued the offensive past the pre-1939 border with the conquest of Soviet territories, as well as halting only around 30-32 km (19-20 mi) from the center of Leningrad, where they participated in besieging the city by cutting its northern supply routes and digging in until 1944. The Finnish fleet also participated in the sea blockade of the city. It would have been terrible if the Nazi Nation had won together with the Finns the 2nd world war. This victory would have meant the destruction of the Soviet Union and various genocides against the Slavic peoples of the Soviet Union. But also elsewhere they would have exterminated the Slavs, for example in Poland, whereby they would also have exterminated certain nonslavic nations. It's a fact that the attack of 1941 served to support the Germans in completely destroying the Soviet Union. The Finns also knew what the Germans were doing, because they were there at the siege of Leningrad. In addition, the Finns also supported the German attack on the Soviet city of Murmansk and tried to besiege this city together with the Germans. The Finns wanted more than just to retake the lost territories. The Finns wanted to benefit from the expected German victory over the Soviet Union and additionally conquer more Soviet territory. To win, the Finns supported the Nazi nation in the criminal siege of Leningrad, which was part of the racist war of annihilation against the Slavic population of the Soviet Union. Because the siege was intended to exterminate the population of Leningrad. That's why 1 million people died in Leningrad largely by starvation. Mostly civilians. Which shows that the Finns didn't care that millions of civilians died in this war. The Finns also attacked and besieged Murmansk together with the Germans, which was definitely not a Finnish city either. That is why Great Britain declared war on the Finns and attacked Finnish troops with bombers too. Finland was so the enemy of liberators of Europe because Finland has allied itself with absolute evil.
@lati long Indeed, and they paid a price for that in the "Winter War". And, during the "Cold War", there was something called "Finlandization" were, on a regular basis, the Soviet ambassador in Finland would pop by to "friendly" instruct.
@@steenkigerrider5340 And got his ass slapped most of the time. We called them "Laukkuryssä" in Finland. Raw translation would be "Suitcase Ruskie", because they carried a suitcase filled with communist propaganda.
"When picking between the devil and 'perkele', you tend to make mistakes" -Some unknown finnish man, as told to his neighbour after asking why he aided the germans
To ruin the joke by explaining it: It's actually a choice between "Saatana" and "Perkele", with the former obviously being a finnification of "Satan", and the latter being both a word for a pre-christian pagan god, and another synonym for the devil. And of course, both are commonly used curse-words. So the joke is that the choice was between two barely different kinds of devil, and neither of them is pleasant.
@@rockCity777 Close, the actual 1st word was "Piru", but same difference. This was something my great-grandfather said, and has been retold to me by my grandmother. He seems to have been quite quick-witted with his words, which is very much a Central finnish mannerism
Then again I wonder how siding with the other devil aka Stalin would have ended up. Like would the other allies have guaranteed Finlands independence and security in exchange of siding against Hitler with them and Stalin. Could they have. * Finland: Hey Stalin... we forget you invaded us and fight with you against Germany and you leave us alone? * Stalin: I promise on Comrade Trotsky's grave, that I will leave you alone. * Finland: hehehe.... This is going to end up so well * Stalin: hey how about I send 15 divisions in Finland to help in the fight against Germany... purely temporarily * Finland: so welll............ * UK and USA: So so Uncle Joe you werent supposed to conquer Finland. * Stalin: What you gonna do about it now dear war allies? * UK and USA: Nothing our dear ally, just wanted it to be noted that we think that was naughty for historical record. Do or don't, you are in the shit. Atleast the German option had the glimmer of hope of victory and Greater Finland at the beginning instead of certain destruction on the other hand. The honourable option of course would have fought all of Japan, USA, USSR, , Australia, China, UK and Germany to stay completely neutral... all of them at once..... without anyone providing us grain or war supplies..... Like that was going to be a glorious fight to last breath. Since that was pretty much the only actually "honorable" way to act without having to be allying with any mass murderers. If we Finns get called Nazis for being war allies with Hitler, I call dips on getting to call Americans, Brits, Canadians and Australians Stalinists for siding with USSR during WWII. Everybody had nasty bed fellows, since two of the major war machines in the globe at the time were run by mass murdering maniacs.
In case someone is wondering what's up with the swastikas hanging from Mannerheim's neck in this video's thumbnail picture, that is the "Grand Cross of the White Rose of Finland with Collar" which was designed in 1919 by one of the greatest painters in Finland, Akseli Gallen-Kallela. The swastikas were replaced in 1963 after some feedback from foreign recipients of the chain :)
@@XtreeM_FaiL And to be fair, I kind of do understand why Charles de Gaulle might have some qualms about wearing a swastika, no matter all the "ours is older than the German one"-talk.
@@XtreeM_FaiL Well when most Europeans would have gone to India just after the war they would have shat their pants too. Nowadays they'd probably notice it, joke about it and then move on.
Mannerheim did an incredible job of fighting and diplomacy at almost impossible odds. Finland, unlike Poland, Hungary and the Baltic states never fell under power of Stalin and USSR. I bet he is one of the national heroes much respected in Finland.
@@axelpatrickb.pingol3228 Still much better than the alternative of becoming a communist state which most likely would have happend if there was no "Finlandization".
@@axelpatrickb.pingol3228 Are you familiar with Vito Corleone's guide of "How to say no". Basically you have to say no so that it sounds like yes. That's Finnish foreign policy in a nutshell.
@@axelpatrickb.pingol3228 Your comment shows typical lack of lack of knowledge and understanding of Finland. Just as the co-fighting with Germany was the only possible way during the war 41-44, "Finlandization" was in fact a wise strategy during the cold war, that once again saved Finland, and is an important rooth cause to Finlands standing today. Finlands cooperation with the Soviet Union, although it may have appeared submissive on the surface, actually also brought many benefits in terms of economic and industrial development.
@@axelpatrickb.pingol3228 Sockpuppet that is ranked the happiest country in the world atm and is in fact the only country ever to pay war reparations in full. Without marshall aid. Better to go along than say fuck you to a country 30times larger than you maybe?
Finland: *has trouble with the soviet unions aggression* Allies: *thoughts and prayers* Germany: "heres some planes, guns, ammo and such" No wonder finland ended up working with germany on some level
To be fair, the French and British attempted to send aid in material and troops to Finland. However, Norway and Sweden denied transit through their lands for fear the countries would be drawn into the war.
It's crazy how my dads old elementary school in Mikkeli, was actually Mannerheims HQ just 40 years prior him going to school there, now it's a museum building explaining many of the same things as in this video.
Is it even crazier to think that I as a millenial still went to that same school?. My 3rd grade classroom was right next to Mannerheim's office and after every recess I ran the same steps the officers had walked on. This wasn't that long ago.. Well maybe it was.
@@RottaOnRotta Se vaunu joka on siin rautatieasemalla just sen pitkän alamäen tien päässä, niin se on replika siitä kyseisestä tapaamisvaunusta, jossa ne kaks tapas sit.
As Hitler was about to visit Finland, Mannerheim was planning a dinner menu with his aide-de-camp for the visit: - I will take a cigar between these courses. - But Sir, Hitler doesn't like smoking. - But I do and I am the host.
Quite often is referred Finns got military support from Germany, but almost every time is forgotten that Finland relied hugely on German food supplies. Germany was almost only country selling us desperately needed grain, lard and such supplies. Germany even threatened to cut food supplies at the end of the war, to make Finland continue fighting.
Ridiculous claim! The Finns certainly did not have to be forced into an alliance with the Germans. By the way, if Finland had been neutral, Finland, like Sweden, would not have problems with food supplies. The Finns had problems with food supply because they took part in the raid of the Soviet Union. By the way, Finns were the friends of the Nazi Nation! Finnish President Carl Gustaf Mannerheim named the Nazi soldiers in a letter to Adolf Hitler: "Our German brothers-in-arms..." Obvious, Finland was an ally of the criminal Nazi nation and also took part in the raid on the Soviet Union in 1941. The Finns fought side by side with these criminal mass murderers. Finland did this to conquer territory. Apparently Finland not only wanted the lost territories of the Winter War of 1940, but also wanted to take other territories away from the Soviets. The Finnish parliament declared that the aim of the war was to restore the areas lost during the winter war and to gain more areas in the east in order to create a Greater Finland. President Ryti said this to the Finnish Parliament in 1941. By September 1941, the Finns recaptured the territories lost in the Winter War. However, the Finnish Army continued the offensive past the pre-1939 border with the conquest of Soviet territories, as well as halting only around 30-32 km (19-20 mi) from the center of Leningrad, where they participated in besieging the city by cutting its northern supply routes and digging in until 1944. The Finnish fleet also participated in the sea blockade of the city. To win, the Finns supported the Nazi nation in the criminal siege of Leningrad, which was part of the racist war of annihilation against the Slavic population of the Soviet Union. Because the siege was intended to wipe out the population of Leningrad. That's why 1 million people died in Leningrad largely by starvation. Mostly civilians. Which shows that the Finns didn't care that millions of civilians died in this war. The Finns also attacked and besieged Murmansk together with the Germans, which was definitely not a Finnish city either. It would have been terrible if the Nazi Nation had won together with the Finns the 2nd world war. This victory would have meant the destruction of the Soviet Union and various genocides against the Slavic peoples of the Soviet Union. But also elsewhere they would have exterminated the Slavs, for example in Poland, whereby they would also have exterminated certain nonslavic nations. It's a fact that the attack of 1941 served to support the Germans in completely destroying the Soviet Union. The Finns also knew what the Germans were doing, because they were there at the siege of Leningrad. In addition, the Finns also supported the German attack on the Soviet city of Murmansk and tried to besiege this city together with the Germans. The Finns wanted more than just to retake the lost territories. The Finns wanted to benefit from the expected German victory over the Soviet Union and additionally conquer more Soviet territory. To win, the Finns supported the Nazi nation in the criminal siege of Leningrad, which was part of the racist war of annihilation against the Slavic population of the Soviet Union. Because the siege was intended to exterminate the population of Leningrad. That's why 1 million people died in Leningrad largely by starvation. Mostly civilians. Which shows that the Finns didn't care that millions of civilians died in this war. The Finns also attacked and besieged Murmansk together with the Germans, which was definitely not a Finnish city either. That is why Great Britain declared war on the Finns and attacked Finnish troops with bombers too. Finland was so the enemy of liberators of Europe because Finland has allied itself with absolute evil.
@@XtreeM_FaiL allies in question: invaded poland after it was already destroyhed, basically stealing german gains trading (wtf countries can trade with each other??? no way) ... oh it looks like that's all. hmm
Finland had long standing issues with Russia. And they had just been attacked by the Soviets during the Winter War. I’m pretty sure it was a case of “the enemy of my enemy is my friend, for now.”
Nah, Germans were involved in the Finnish civil war, trained Finnish Jäegers in Germany and when Finland was about to become a monarchy, their king would've been German. Ties between Germany and Finland were strong already without the Soviet invasion, and during the continuation war, all Finnish political and military leaders had sympathies towards Germany.
@@goldbullet50 All Finnish political and military leaders had sympathies towards Germany? That could not be further from the truth. If you are Finnish, go read some books and first hand accounts. If you're not, then keep your mouth shut if you don't know what you are talking about.
@@taekatanahu635 Kinda-sorta. The Whites sought to maintain Allied support by persisting in their resolution to oppose Germany. The Bolsheviks, for their part, were keen to bring an end to the fighting, per their promises of "Peace, Land, Bread", ultimately resulting in the treaty of Brest-Litovsk in March 1918 - something which the Allies interpreted as a betrayal, causing them to offer their support to the Whites. Ironically, the first British landings came at the request of the Murmansk Soviet, who feared a German attack on the town. The British troops arrived on the 4th of March, the day after the signing of the treaty of Brest-Litovsk. Basically, the Russian Civil War was a confused clusterfrag of a conflict, but I can hardly blame the Germans for being interested in its outcome: as long as the Whites don't win, their eastern front is secure, and they can concentrate their forces in the west to face the British and French.
@@GarioTheRock well the Finns did have to go to war to defend themselves, and remained a free nation, so three is that! Also of note, most Finns enjoy silence!
Finland was, like every country stuck between Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union, in a very vulnerable position. They had to make a deal with someone, and after the unprovoked Winter war, it wasn't going to be Stalin. Mannerheim and Finland did very well to negotiate the dangers of WW2 and remain an independent state. There's no shame in that.
@Fabian Kirchgessner I wouldn't say they liberated Finland. They helped the white forces a bit in defeating the reds in the Finnish civil war just like Soviet union aided the reds. Finland had already been independent for like a year before the civil war started. So there wasn't really anything to liberate them from
@Fabian Kirchgessner It should have been. However, Germany sold Finland to the Soviet Union in the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. During the Winter War, Germany was actually hampering Finland's fight against the USSR. That alone tells a story of what kind of people the Nazis were. Although, even as a Finn, I don't belong to those who adamantly claim Finland wasn't allied with Germany in any kind of imaginable way, it's still a case of having little choice. Finland had to seek help from one demon to fight another demon. History talks about Winter War and Continuation War, but in the bigger picture Finland was drawn into the 2nd World War when the Soviet Union attacked in 1939. Continuation War wouldn't have happened without the Winter War. Btw, Germany didn't liberate Finland. The Whites would have won even without direct German military help, the Germans just made the civil war end a bit sooner. In fact, Mannerheim didn't want the Germans to intervene in the Finnish civil war, but the decision was out of his hands.
"Is Finland an ally of Nazi Germany?" "IS" Did I miss something for that past couple months? Edit: for those who don't understand the joke, he said "is Finland an ally of nazi Germany" and because he put an is he would be referring to the present
It was but I guess the question alludes more so into if Finn's really did it more so out of neccesity without any other choice and they did it also without any real respect for Germany. Playing a game with one huge monster to keep other huge monster at bay and maybe survive as a small country in the middle of it.
@@454FatJack Germany was never an ally to the USSR and they both hated each other. Stalin did say that the war with Germany was inevitable, he was just very wrong about when he thought it was gonna happen
12:53 In this part of the video you mentioned the private train where Hitler and Mannerheim met and I would like to add something to that. The train where they met still exists (as a sort of a museum/attraction). It's not in a very well known location and it's currently next to a Shell gas station in Sastamala. I visited the train some time ago myself.
The train car where Mannerheim and Hitler dined is indeed in Sastamala. However, the train car where they later discussed and where the unique recording was made is in Mikkeli, right at the railway station. That one is only open for public once a year, on 4th June (Mannerheim's birthday and anniversary of the visit). Can recommend! Wikipedia page of the two train cars (in Finnish): fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marsalkka_Mannerheimin_salonkivaunut
Fun fact: when Mannerheim got information that the Führer would be joining his birthday party he said: Vad I helvete gör han här? (What the hell is he doing here?). He wasn't really too fond of the German supreme leader.
My father was a Finnish soldier during the Continuation War. The reds from the civil war who were on the Finnish side used to say that "now the butcher is on our side."
It is interesting that the USA never declared war on Finland. It is probably even more interesting that Finish Jewish units fought alongside of German forces.
My bestfriend (whom I consider a brother) is half Finnish half American. I got the chance to visit Helsinki and Jyväskylä around two years ago, and have another chance to visit in late September. To this day I consider Finland to be a second home, and a culture that is close to my heart. Hyvää Päivänjakoa!😁
What a stupid question! They were the friends of the Nazi Nation! Finnish President Carl Gustaf Mannerheim named the Nazi soldiers in a letter to Adolf Hitler: "Our German brothers-in-arms..." Obvious, Finland was an ally of the criminal Nazi nation and also took part in the raid on the Soviet Union in 1941. The Finns fought side by side with these criminal mass murderers. Finland did this to conquer territory. Apparently Finland not only wanted the lost territories of the Winter War of 1940, but also wanted to take other territories away from the Soviets. The Finnish parliament declared that the aim of the war was to restore the areas lost during the winter war and to gain more areas in the east in order to create a Greater Finland. President Ryti said this to the Finnish Parliament in 1941. By September 1941, the Finns recaptured the territories lost in the Winter War. However, the Finnish Army continued the offensive past the pre-1939 border with the conquest of Soviet territories, as well as halting only around 30-32 km (19-20 mi) from the center of Leningrad, where they participated in besieging the city by cutting its northern supply routes and digging in until 1944. The Finnish fleet also participated in the sea blockade of the city. To win, the Finns supported the Nazi nation in the criminal siege of Leningrad, which was part of the racist war of annihilation against the Slavic population of the Soviet Union. Because the siege was intended to wipe out the population of Leningrad. That's why 1 million people died in Leningrad largely by starvation. Mostly civilians. Which shows that the Finns didn't care that millions of civilians died in this war. The Finns also attacked and besieged Murmansk together with the Germans, which was definitely not a Finnish city either. It would have been terrible if the Nazi Nation had won together with the Finns the 2nd world war. This victory would have meant the destruction of the Soviet Union and various genocides against the Slavic peoples of the Soviet Union. But also elsewhere they would have exterminated the Slavs, for example in Poland, whereby they would also have exterminated certain nonslavic nations. It's a fact that the attack of 1941 served to support the Germans in completely destroying the Soviet Union. The Finns also knew what the Germans were doing, because they were there at the siege of Leningrad. In addition, the Finns also supported the German attack on the Soviet city of Murmansk and tried to besiege this city together with the Germans. The Finns wanted more than just to retake the lost territories. The Finns wanted to benefit from the expected German victory over the Soviet Union and additionally conquer more Soviet territory. To win, the Finns supported the Nazi nation in the criminal siege of Leningrad, which was part of the racist war of annihilation against the Slavic population of the Soviet Union. Because the siege was intended to exterminate the population of Leningrad. That's why 1 million people died in Leningrad largely by starvation. Mostly civilians. Which shows that the Finns didn't care that millions of civilians died in this war. The Finns also attacked and besieged Murmansk together with the Germans, which was definitely not a Finnish city either. That is why Great Britain declared war on the Finns and attacked Finnish troops with bombers too. Finland was so the enemy of liberators of Europe because Finland has allied itself with absolute evil. In addition this Wiki link titled East Karelian concentration camps. In the link one can then read the following. Quote: "East Karelian concentration camps were a set of concentration camps operated by the Finnish government in the areas of the Soviet Union occupied by the Finnish military administration during... These camps were organized by the armed forces supreme commander Carl Gustaf Emil Mannerheim. The mortality rate of civilians in the camps was high due to famine and disease...Significant numbers of Soviets died in this concentration camps. These were many women, children, and the elderly..." Quote end!
@@federicomachado811 Molotov-Ribbentrop pact was an economical and military alliance that lasted for years, way longer than what Finnish and German pact lasted. Either they both are alliances, or neither are.
1988 the 14th Dalai Lama visited Helsinki, and nevertheless H. H. had a very tight schedule he insisted on an impromptu visit to the Mannerheim Museum. Why? Well, these two were met before. Mannerheim had met Dalai Lama's earlier, the 13th, incarnation 26th of June 1908 in Wutai Shan and given him a quite unusual gift back then, Browning revolver. Explaining: "The times are such that a revolver may be of greater use, even to a holy man like yourself, than a prayer wheel".
As a Finn and a fan of the channel, thank you for this. After having read extensively about the subject, I do agree, Finland and Germany were allies in all but name. Well done Indy and crew!
The bottom line is, that if Finland would've again fought the Soviet Union alone, it would've lost it's independence. Look at the state of the former finnish Karelia today and compare it to how it was under Finland. If Finland again became a part of the Soviet Union, the finnish would've been taken to Siberia and replaced with foreigners from the Soviet Union and the whole country would slowly turn into a similar shithole that the former finnish Karelia is now. Mannerheim saved Finland.
@A Y Though Baltic countries may be a bad point of comparison, as their regimes were largely collaborationist and thus were treated less oppressively by the Nazis.
@@user-po1mu1sy7g Major attractions don't make it the country that it is. Tie your tongue to your uvula and keep it there. Don't speak. Don't type. Keep your vodka & depression fueled thoughts to yourself. Thank you.
This much is clear. The Finnish high command willingly went to war along side Germany, But co-operation was only in Finland's own interest. And Mannerheim was absolutely furious with the German progress in Lapland. During the whole offensive phase, Germans in Lapland made only 26km of progress towards Murmansk. While the Finns made closer to 300 in the South.
Except they lost both wars so I am not sure why people get this idea. They did absolutely crush them in casualties but Soviet war aims were realized in both cases. The Karelian Isthmus, Petsamo, and Ladoga Karelia are in modern Russia for this reason. Obviously this is the best case scenario since Finland would almost certainly be Sovietized but it's a de jure defeat
@@s871-c1q finns still humilated soviet union and 32 finns against 4000 soviets and they couldnt defeat finns. Like 300 sparta, true warrior race aka finns
Given the fate every other country that was located between Nazi Germany and the USSR suffered I'd say Finland did what it had to do to ensure the survival of it's people. It was between a rock and a hard place and yet manage to come out the other side after quite a bit of struggle and suffering. Admirable folk.
@@axelpatrickb.pingol3228 What feasible outcome you think would have been more preferable?
3 года назад
@@axelpatrickb.pingol3228 Have 1100km border with population of 4 million with Soviet Union and be belligerent, i'd be interested to hear that what dream world that sounds like a good idea during the cold war.
@Robert Kaevur "You could protest freely but not form parties” What does that mean? Pro-American parties? Countries don't have pro-some-other-nation-parties. Finland is full of political parties, some of them formed during the Cold War. The predecessor of the current big populistic party in Finland was estalished right in the 50's. It was from the beginning a party that blamed the older parties for being too Soviet-friendly, among other things. Your information about the treaty is also inaccurate. It was a non-aggression pact that stipulated that Finland must not allow Germany or its allies (in practice the UK/USA) to use the Finnish territory to attack the USSR. It also said that if Finland is attacked, Finland can ask the Soviet Union for help. However, any such aid is not automatic and must involve Finland asking for it. There was never any military cooperation between the Soviet Union and Finland during the Cold War. The biggest practical/visible effect of Finlandization was self-censorship. Negative news about the Soviet Union were few and far between in Finnish media during the Cold War.
I think the difficulty in saying that "this is how it is" just proves and emphasizes the multilayered ambiguity of the situation. No one who is honest can prove it black or white but that it seems more that the decisions are made more "on the go" with the goal in mind like Mannerheim states: to ensure the security of finland.
re: on the description I have never seen Mannerheim referred to as Carl Mannerheim. It's always been just Marshal Mannerheim or C.G.E. Mannerheim or by his full name Carl Gustaf Emil Mannerheim.
He preferred to use his middle name Gustaf. Carl was a very common name in Mannerheim's family and he disliked the name Emil. For example in the recording of his presidential oath he says Gustaf Mannerheim. I don't think that he used the full initials C.G.E. that much even though they are often used nowadays.
Changed the description to better reflect that. Perils of working in an international company where everyone has different assumptions on the primacy of names. Thanks for pointing it out.
@@Oxtocoatl13 Actually, there were TWO brothers both named Carl: one was Carl Erik Johan Mannerheim (Gustaf's older brother) and the other was Carl Fridolf Johan Mannerheim (Gustaf's younger brother). Of these, the first mentioned was called Carl and the latter was called Johan.
@@Caldera01 Yes. Full. Let's start from the invasion into Soviet Russia in 1918 to grab the land Finns never owned. Edit: or better: start with 1917 and "white terror" during the civil war in Finland
@@vantuz8264 The lands the grand duke of Finland, Nicholas II never owned? The lands that the Soviets stole from the rightful owner the Tsar? The Tsar whom the Soviets brutally murdered after they stole those lands? Those ones?
This is a recipe for drink they used to do in Mannerheim's family estate, Louhisaaren kartano. The drink is known as Louhisaaren juoma, Lehtimehu or sometimes Marskin sima, as the recipe is pretty similar to sima. 5 liters of water 4 liters of fresh blackcurrant leaves 2 citrons (alternatively 25 grams of citric acid) 500g sugar 1/4 teaspoons of yeast 1. Clean and slice the citrons. Separate the skin (needed) and remove the white parts (not needed). 2. Put citron slices, skin, blackcurrant leaves and sugar into a bucket. Add boiling water. 3. Wait until the liquid is around 37 Celsius (hand temperature). Pour the liquid through gauze to get rid of the leaves. 4. Dissolve yeast into a small amount of lukewarm water and pour them in. 5. Let the drink ferment until the next day. 6. Bottle it and preserve it for a few days somewhere below room temperature (fridge, for example) 7. Done. There are actually many different versions of the recipe. Some use citric acid instead of citrons and not everyone adds yeast. I'm not sure which one is the most authentic one.
my first thought was, "The Nazi's trusted the Finns with their plans for invading the USSR." That means a very high level of trust, especially as it wasn't at the last moment. Also to put German soldiers under Finnish officers in the Southern attack, means they knew Finland could be trusted to do a good job and was an ally. You can write all you want, and until your videos, I had no clue Finland was so close to Germany and involved so much in the invasion and attacks on the USSR. The Finns show up time and again as very good soldiers and totally integrated with many German units. No need to shame them, but honesty is always better than a cover up!
Russia had been causing pain for the nation for centuries (the great wrath for the most notable part), this was the one time that they saw fit to regain what had been lost. The discussion happens mostly because Finland was never authoritarian nor had any political parties in the parlament that were even close to fascism, yet they still ended up co-operating with Germany. It is easy to judge nowadays, but the winter war left the nation with a saying that is still relevant with the joining of NATO: "Never alone again". For a small nation of just 3 million people to fight against a super power, it causes much more than just physical damage since it´s not just the soldiers that have to play their part. Suicides, substance abuse, mental health issues etc. sky rocketed nationwide, remnants of which can still be seen today.
Outstanding Sir! As a military historian, retired-USAF vet and Finn-American w/direct family who served in the Winter War, I found this awesome. Very informative!
What makes me outrageous about this episode is that the question about "Was Finland an Ally of Nazi Germany or wasn't?" is completely misleading. It's all about blaming the victim and not the aggressor. Because for all questions "did Mannerheim sign anything with Hitler? or did Finland sign anything?" the answers are "It looks like; it seems he did". Russia just from the start of Finland's independence tried to occupy it. Started two wars against Finland, occupied its land, and apart of that we didn't hear the question "was Russia Hitler's ally?" "did Russia sign any treaty with Nazis?" "did Russia actively participate in the war on Nazi's side?" And for each of that questions, the answer is astounding YES and each of them is proved and not "it looks like; it seems to be". So the right question would be: "did Finland have the right to defend itself?" "did Finland have the right to fight back its land?" "Why didn't Britain declare the war on Russia when it attacked Poland?" "Why didn't Britain help Finland when it was attacked by Russians?" but instead of all that we only we hear "Wow, after heavy russian bombardment of Finland cities, the Finns attacked russians and took back their land, how could they dare???"
@@WorldWarTwo With all due respect I clearly understand the difference. I just want to point out that in today's world naming someone "Nazi's ally" looks like blaming them for having started WW2 and all the consequences. And it has nothing in common with Finland. So my complaints are about the title and the way the story is represented and not about the story.
Oh boy… let’s take one thing after the other. That the USSR and the Nazi German Reich were allies from August 1939 to June 22, 1941 is not revisionism. It’s the other way around. When Germany attacked the Soviet Union, and the Soviet Union by force switched sides, there was a concerted effort by the Allied Powers to revision the Soviet-Nazi alliance as a pragmatic appeasement move by Stalin. The revisionist argument was upheld by the USSR, and tacitly accepted by the West until the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991. Under Putin’s renewed revisionist efforts there is once again a Russian politically supported movement to reinstate the revisionist false narrative. There really is no debate here - Academic historians have _never_ bought into the agitprop version where Stalin was just being ‘smart’ and appeasing Hitler. His geopolitical motives of expansion into the Baltic states, Finland and Bessarabia, as well as his goal to destroy Poland are extremely well documented. That Finland fought alongside the Axis powers starting June 22, 1941 is an irrefutable fact. If that makes Finnland ‘just’ a co-belligerent or an ally of Germany is a matter of interpretation, and exactly what this video explores, without giving a definitive answer, because there is no definitive answer. Finland’s reasons for her actions are clearly understandable, her motives clearly outlined. If that is fair justification is a moral question of extreme complexity that also can’t be answered in a yes or no manner. Finally inferring that discussing what level Finland’s alliance went to is tantamount to saying that Finland’s bears responsibility for starting WW2 is dogmatic idiocy, or should we stay just plain stupid. The war started in 1939, it was initiated by Germany with the support of the USSR. Within three months Finland was a victim of aggression by one of the powers that started the war. When the two belligerents who started the war together went to war against each other in June 1941, Finland joined the fight on the Axis side against her previous aggressor, the USSR who in turn joined the United Nations Alliance. This eventually placed Finland at war with the all the Allied nations. This is outlined here, and pretty much everywhere that WW2 is documented. To not understand that 1939 happens before 1941 requires either to have a grasp of math and calendars of a three year old, or to be a willfully ignorant demagogue.
@@WorldWarTwo I totally agree with the fact that this episode is correct about the facts stated. My point is that Finland's motives weren't outlined clearly enough. It's as calling an afroamerican a negro is totally correct (technically) because "negro" means black in Spanish and normally afroamericans have black skin. But it's morally wrong. I don't want to discuss a lot with you actually I'm your fan, you make amazing videos and when I say amazing I just mean they are AMAZING. But I think there is a problem with this particular episode and it's not about the facts it's all about nuances. There is nothing more to discuss. Thank you for your job because what you do is BRILLIANT.
@@WorldWarTwo Your statement "Academic historians have never bought into the agitprop version where Stalin was just being ‘smart’ and appeasing Hitler" and "The war started in 1939, it was initiated by Germany with the support of the USSR." is clearly revisionism and no respectable historian upholds this. You intentionally forget that the USSR tried repeatedly to negociate with UK and France to contain Hitler, they offered large amount of troops to attack Hitler on both fronts if the nazis invaded Poland. This is well documented. With France and UK not willing to contain the nazis (and the fascist italians) in the Spanish Civil War plus the Munich treaty which basically gave away Chzekoslovakia to the nazis, but also to Poland and Hungary, the USSR had enough proof that France and UK would not limit the expansion of the nazis (Lebensraum + Generalplan Ost) to the East. So they signed a non-agression pact with the nazis to buy time to prepare for the inevitable war. This treaty also allowed the URSS to gain back territories that were given up during Brest-Litovsk 1918 to the Central Powers, essentially Germany.
My dad was US Navy in WWII. He talked to me a few times about the place of the USSR and the Finns in the war, strictly from his own boots-on-the-ground (waves?) point of view. He always held that the USSR was, at best, an untrustworthy ally, given that they had sided with Germany during the early part of the war. My dad wasn't a "Better Dead Than Red" kinda guy, but he was nervous about them. He also showed great respect for Finland for the Winter War. He always held the standard line -- Finland wasn't "a Nazi ally", but rather "an enemy of the USSR, and Germany just helped them with that". Still, he also got a little nervous about that, especially with so many Finns wearing German helmets. Overall, he thought the whole Eastern Front was a confused mess and the one main thing he wanted was for Germany to be spanked down hard. The politics of the situation, he freely admitted, confused the hell out of him.
And why USSR was untrustworthy to your dad? Cause the USSR lost 27,000,000 people in this war? Your dad is a simple nazi collaborator. Just like Ford company. Search about this corp. You will be amazed. 👍
Fortunately for Finland's people there was Mannerheim, who against all odds managed to maintain Finland -of less than 5 million people, after fighting a war against USSR with serious effects both in economy and infrastructure- to exist as an entity after the WWII, although being the closest neighbor to the two out of four biggest powers in those days. The Suomis straggle against uncertainty lasted another 40 years or so. Great designers, great drivers, great athletes and -most importantly- great readers, they used to make some great cellulars too.
3 года назад
Mannerheim's memoirs are famously trying to show him in best light possible (retroactively). So it's pretty clear there were some agreements, even if they weren't on paper. The operation Barbarossa contained german orders that clearly showed finnish positions in places that would mean finns were part of the operation.
Memoirs are treacherous sources, unless what you are looking for is indeed how the person in question viewed something, or how they wanted themselves to be seen. And Mannerheim's memoirs are absolutely like that, they paint a very pretty and glamourous picture of the man.
When the agreements aren't on paper, it more or less gives Mannerheim the freedom to write whatever he wants in his memoirs too. Even as the president and the marshal of Finland, he did not have the official mandate to make such agreements on behalf of Finland. So it's basically all in the air even to this day. If the Germans won the war, maybe Mannerheim would have remembered it differently in his memoirs too.
Also many many finnish war propaganda songs at the time depicted germany and japan as great partners who came to the aid of finland when no one else helped them, i recommend listening to "Uraliin", its on youtube and has english subtitles in the video
@@stevekaczynski3793 Of course. However, we have to question how valid can an agreement be, if you can just kinda forget it ever existed and with that alone there's no longer anything anyone can do to prove it did.
Mannerheim was a strange man. If we look closer how he became the leader of the white army back in 1918 it went something like this: He was in Southern Russia during the Russian revolution and dressed as a Russian officer took a train through Russia to St. Petersburg and was never caught or questioned by the reds. Against all odds he managed to cross the border and get to Finland. In Finland, the reds had taken the south but further north, the Finnish speaking farmers were forming a white army. They hated Russians, they hated the Swedish speaking and they hated the nobility. Mannerheim, a Swedish speaking Russian officer and a nobleman went to negotiate, even though he hardly spoke any Finnish. "Ok, you are our commander!" This is how he started his career in Finland. There was something very convincing about him, even when in every possible way he was the wrong guy.
The mentioned speech of Mannerheim was given twenty years before, 1918. War of aggression was not in the hopes of Finns during WW2 but national survival and preventing genocide
Mannerheim is a smooooth operator, he consistently declined Germany's Non-Aggression Pacts, refused to join Axis, and yet accepts German supports while passively supporting the invasion of USSR, in the name of "defending our nation and taking back lost land". He convinced Sweden, an all time neutral country to support Finland in the winter war and yet, not involving Sweden directly into the affairs with then Soviets. He's constantly observing and calculating, pulling strings with other superpower's momentum to aid in Finland's conquest, once he sees that Germany is incapable of finish what they've started, he jumps down the fence and turns over to the allies. He was highly respected by both Hitler and Stalin, if it wasn't for him, Finland would have been capitalized long ago by either one of these two powers
Finland was defending itself from communist aggression since the 20's ( just like the rest of eastern europe, germany and Spain). Unluckily for them, and for any democratic anti communists at that time, nazism entered the scene. They were caught between a rock and a hard place. Mannerhein manoeuvered intelligently and tactfully. The fact Is, had the USSR not try to invade their neighbours, Finland would have remained neutral, like sweden. Today, compare the famous Finn educational system to that of russia. I think Mannerhein was a hero and a gentleman. AND I'm not even a Finn!!
Unluckily? No matter what you think about A.H but truth is that he made germany the best nation in world, best army, best economy, happy people, low crime, no usury, germans felt proud of who they are cuz A.H, before A.H germany was in great depression, it was imbossible to rise from that, but A.H did it only in few years(miracle) and in one year he alreydy made jobs to 3 000 000! million unembloyed people. World has never seen such thing and many historians has said that if A.H would have died in 1939, he would now be considered as one of the greatest man ever who ever lived. Extrafunfact: Millions of volunteers around world fighted with A.H also
Sweden had the luxury of being neutral only because Finland is between them and Russia. They also willingly provided iron to Germany, so there was no need for Germany to annex them, especially when they already had two fronts to fight on.
"East Karelia has never been part of Finland" That's a bit reductive considering Finland had just declared it's independence from the Soviet Union and there were countless Finnish and Finnic peoples outside it's newly drawn border.
Äärimmäisen mielenkiintoinen video suomalaisesta näkökulmasta! Ei se, että tässä olisi tullut jotain uutta ilmi, mutta se, että tämä oli tehty erittäin hyvillä tiedoilla ja kattavaksi kokonaispaketiksi saa kyllä kehut täältä!
In my humble opinion, he was the best leader during WW2. When you take into consideration Finland's economic, industrial, and population sizes and the fact that they fought the USSR (twice) and later Germany and the country came out in one piece (more or less) after the war, his overall leadership was second to none. If he was in charge of the USSR we would be speaking Russian right now.
Being invaded by the Soviets, what else Finland can do? Much respect for Mannerheim for preventing Finland from suffering like the rest of Eastern Europe.
@@wederMaxim Eastern European here, don’t fool yourself: anyone who tells you that things were better during communism is either a former party official or an idiot. The only possible exception to this is Yugoslavia, but the decline there had more to do with the war in the 90s than with the fall of communism.
If the allies really cared about which side Finland would join they would have helped them when they were invaded. Finland didn't choose Germany, the allies picked the USSR. The allies chose to screw Finland over. Almost like they did with Poland. Let the USSR do whatever they want.
The US did not pick the Soviets. Germany and specifically Hitler declared war of the US which automatically mad bboth the Uk and the USSR allies. And no the US was nor committed or obliged to aid Finland in 1941 when the Finns attacked the USSR.
@@caryblack5985 I was just pointing out that Finland was promised aide from both England and France and both left the Finns high and dry. Appeasement to Stalin. Who was Finland left to get aide from? Anyway, WW2 started with appeasement and ended with appeasement. First to one dictator then to another.
@@caryblack5985 UK on the other hand declared a trade blockade against Finland already in 1940, thereby leaving Finns no other chance but to look support from Germany.
@@nordicfella8004 I said nothing about Finland allying with Germany. I just pointed out the US did not PICK the USSR as an ally and the US was not under obligation to the Finns.
Apparently when he heard Hitler was there, Mannerheim exclaimed something along the lines of "vad i helvete gör han här?" No love lost there, apparently.
Few years ago, here in Finland. A diary from a Finnish soldier and honor guard was found and released. There is a part about him and he's colleague being the personal honor guards of Mannerheim during Hitler's visit. They had talked about shooting Hitler with their pistols during the visit. But would come to the conclusion that they'd just be then killed themselves. They would later ponder how much evil might've been thwarted if they'd actually done it.
They would probably have had to shoot Mannerheim as well. Anyway, you would expect honour guard members to come from selected backgrounds where such a temptation would not arise. Even if there were Jewish members of the guard, which I doubt, they would have been re-assigned so as not to have any crises of conscience during Hitler's visit.
The train cart still exists in Finland that Mannerheim and Hitler spoke in. One of the carts was vandalized a year or two ago, but the cart where the recording was made is still fine.
What could Finland do? Colonised by Sweden then Russia? They had to fight for their survival and were harshly penalised by their loss of territory. The neutral countries are NEVER given a choice as the BIG BULLIES don't allow the smaller peaceful nations to live in peace.
One not so much known fact: in the early hour of 21.6.1941 finnish submarines went on a mission to lay seamines on the coast of Soviet occupied Estonia. Those subs also had authorisation to attack any soviet warships that came on their path. Operation Barbarossa began about 24 hours AFTER this mission. I think it is obvious that we finns knew what was coming and we were well prepared for it. Maybe from so early than April 1940, maybe few months later but there is no question that the war preparations started in 1940.
Thor Damen, the bloke who recorded the June 4th meeting, had a brother, ironically named Bror Damen, who married into my family post-war. The brothers are family legends. Bror himself had a very interesting war, he was a sailor who was threatened with internment in America. He avoided this by joining the U.S Army, eventually landing on Omaha. After the war he married my great-grandmother and they settled in Florida. Thor Damen is said to be the first private person in Finland to have owned a television, though I can't verify this.
Small correction to the photo of the Mannerheim children. Carl Gustav is standing to the right. Below him is my grandmother, Eva. This is a first-rate overview of his role in the 39-45 wars: 2 with Soviet Union and one with Germany. One of the great figures of the 20th century. The only White general to defeat the Reds in 1918 and then to fight them to a satisfactory conclusion 20+ years later. It should be noted that Stalin refused to make peace with the Finnish government in 1944 and would only agree to do that with a government under Mannerheim who then became President and agreed to terms. He was a very conservative figure, never a fascist, and, in spite of 2 visits by Himmler and one by Hitler, refused to turn over any Jews. Finnish Jews served honorably in the wars - 3 were awarded the Iron Cross by the Germans (but this honor was declined by all 3). Well done, Indy and associates.
I have the honor of having a lot of Finns as friends and in the course of life's conversations have noticed that these people whose grandparents fought this battle has almost to the man/woman have admitted that the core of the union was one thing, hatred of the russians, it far exceeded the distrust of the nazis.
This is a lie because there was no distrust of the Nazis from the Finns because they were friends and allies of the Nazi nation! By the way, honor and Finns in this context does not fit! For the allies and friends of the Nazi nation had no honor. Finnish President Carl Gustaf Mannerheim named the Nazi soldiers in a letter to Adolf Hitler: "Our German brothers-in-arms..." Obvious, Finland was an ally of the criminal Nazi nation and also took part in the raid on the Soviet Union in 1941. The Finns fought side by side with these criminal mass murderers. Finland did this to conquer territory. Apparently Finland not only wanted the lost territories of the Winter War of 1940, but also wanted to take other territories away from the Soviets. The Finnish parliament declared that the aim of the war was to restore the areas lost during the winter war and to gain more areas in the east in order to create a Greater Finland. President Ryti said this to the Finnish Parliament in 1941. By September 1941, the Finns recaptured the territories lost in the Winter War. However, the Finnish Army continued the offensive past the pre-1939 border with the conquest of Soviet territories, as well as halting only around 30-32 km (19-20 mi) from the center of Leningrad, where they participated in besieging the city by cutting its northern supply routes and digging in until 1944. The Finnish fleet also participated in the sea blockade of the city. It would have been terrible if the Nazi Nation had won together with the Finns the 2nd world war. This victory would have meant the destruction of the Soviet Union and various genocides against the Slavic peoples of the Soviet Union. But also elsewhere they would have exterminated the Slavs, for example in Poland, whereby they would also have exterminated certain nonslavic nations. It's a fact that the attack of 1941 served to support the Germans in completely destroying the Soviet Union. The Finns also knew what the Germans were doing, because they were there at the siege of Leningrad. In addition, the Finns also supported the German attack on the Soviet city of Murmansk and tried to besiege this city together with the Germans. The Finns wanted more than just to retake the lost territories. The Finns wanted to benefit from the expected German victory over the Soviet Union and additionally conquer more Soviet territory. To win, the Finns supported the Nazi nation in the criminal siege of Leningrad, which was part of the racist war of annihilation against the Slavic population of the Soviet Union. Because the siege was intended to exterminate the population of Leningrad. That's why 1 million people died in Leningrad largely by starvation. Mostly civilians. Which shows that the Finns didn't care that millions of civilians died in this war. The Finns also attacked and besieged Murmansk together with the Germans, which was definitely not a Finnish city either. That is why Great Britain declared war on the Finns and attacked Finnish troops with bombers too. Finland was so the enemy of liberators of Europe because Finland has allied itself with absolute evil. ------------------------- Yes and in 1938 Czechoslovak mobilized 1 250 000 soldiers. The information about the Polish army is also wrong in 1939. Because at that time Poland had a 1 million army and the 5th largest army in the world! The information about the French is also wrong! In 1939 the French Army had 900,000 regular soldiers. However, it another 5 million reservists who had been trained and could be called-up in time of war. And the British Army had a regular army of 227,000 men, who were supported by a reserve of 173,700 men. In fact, the majority of the German army was engaged in combat in Poland in 1939, including 90% of the German air force. So if the French and British had attacked massively in the west, as agreed with Poland, the Germans would have been defeated quickly. But these cowardly "allies" of the Poles betrayed Poland and instead of attacking massively in the west, they hid in the bunkers and thus gave away a victory. Through this cowardly behavior they made possible the unimaginable crimes of the Nazi nation. A total of 50 million died as a result of the fighting and various genocides committed by the Nazi nation.
Finnish fellows in the comment-section: I strongly recommend Henrik Meinander's "Mannerheim: Aristokraatti sarkatakissa" Otava, 2017. It is about 300 pages in Finnish, so honestly not hard or too long(since it has about 30 pages of notes and sources) and it is a great and modern biography of him detailing his life from Louhisaari to Hamina Academy to Petersburg to the Russian Japan war,Central Asian expeditions and beyond to a cavalryman in Galicia and so on! Great read!
Is there also a description of Finnish participation in the German raid on the Soviet Union? Because the Finns were the friends and allies of the Nazi Nation in 1939-44! Finnish President Carl Gustaf Mannerheim named the Nazi soldiers in a letter to Adolf Hitler: "Our German brothers-in-arms..." Obvious, Finland was an ally of the criminal Nazi nation and also took part in the raid on the Soviet Union in 1941. The Finns fought side by side with these criminal mass murderers. Finland did this to conquer territory. Apparently Finland not only wanted the lost territories of the Winter War of 1940, but also wanted to take other territories away from the Soviets. The Finnish parliament declared that the aim of the war was to restore the areas lost during the winter war and to gain more areas in the east in order to create a Greater Finland. President Ryti said this to the Finnish Parliament in 1941. By September 1941, the Finns recaptured the territories lost in the Winter War. However, the Finnish Army continued the offensive past the pre-1939 border with the conquest of Soviet territories, as well as halting only around 30-32 km (19-20 mi) from the center of Leningrad, where they participated in besieging the city by cutting its northern supply routes and digging in until 1944. The Finnish fleet also participated in the sea blockade of the city. It would have been terrible if the Nazi Nation had won together with the Finns the 2nd world war. This victory would have meant the destruction of the Soviet Union and various genocides against the Slavic peoples of the Soviet Union. But also elsewhere they would have exterminated the Slavs, for example in Poland, whereby they would also have exterminated certain nonslavic nations. It's a fact that the attack of 1941 served to support the Germans in completely destroying the Soviet Union. The Finns also knew what the Germans were doing, because they were there at the siege of Leningrad. The Finns wanted more than just to retake the lost territories. The Finns wanted to benefit from the expected German victory over the Soviet Union and additionally conquer more Soviet territory. To win, the Finns supported the Nazi nation in the criminal siege of Leningrad, which was part of the racist war of annihilation against the Slavic population of the Soviet Union. Because the siege was intended to exterminate the population of Leningrad. That's why 1 million people died in Leningrad largely by starvation. Mostly civilians. Which shows that the Finns didn't care that millions of civilians died in this war. The Finns also attacked and besieged Murmansk together with the Germans, which was definitely not a Finnish city either. That is why Great Britain declared war on the Finns and attacked Finnish troops with bombers too. Finland was so the enemy of liberators of Europe because Finland has allied itself with absolute evil. In addition, the Finns also supported the German attack on the Soviet city of Murmansk and tried to besiege this city together with the Germans.
@@aleksazunjic9672 So, which territories did the Finns steal during the Winter war? The Soviet Union constantly attacked Finland from the very moment it did not wish to be under Russian rule, White or Red. They just wanted freedom from Russia.
@@aleksazunjic9672 Oh dear, Aleksa, your whole reasoning falls apart with the statement "The Soviet Union was OK with notional Liberation". Only if these areas became SSR´s within the USSR. That is why the Soviets attempted to invade Finland in the early Twenties.
@@aleksazunjic9672 Again, check your facts. Mannerheim led the White forces fighting the Bolsheviks, who were attempting to claim Finland for the Soviet Union. After that failed campaign, maybe Stalin realised that Finland was just a small fish in a big pond. The Bolsheviks had gained Petrogrod and Kronstadt for naval access to the Baltic so Finland became a minor issue.
@@aleksazunjic9672 The "land near Leningrad" belonged to Sweden 1323 - 1721 and to Russia 1721 - 1812. The inhabitants of it were Finns. During 1812 - 1917 it belonged to Grand Duchy of Finland, being part of Russian Empire (but not Russia). It belonged to independent Finland (confirmed by Lenin) since its first day until the end of Winter War.
Fought against the Communists on the behest of the nazis. Was given weapons and support from Germany and Italy. And it didn't even require them to be occupied like Thailand was with Japan. Sure sounds like they're allies.
I am very interested in Finnish history and have read all the books you refer to and more, and I must say this was an extremely good, informed and ballanced account of Finlands association with Germany during our so called continuation war. Thank you and much credit to you.
You'll like it: Hitlerin Saksa ja sen vapaaehtoisliikkeet: Waffen-SS and Karjalan ristiretki ja taistelu Nevan reitistä by Mauno Jokipii Suomi miehittäjänä 1941-1944 by Helge Seppälä The Winter War: Finland Against Russia, 1939-1940 by Vaino Tanner
"Continuation war" is a mendacious Propaganda term that contradicts historical reality. Because that was a completely new war in which the Finns together with the Germans raided the Soviet Union. Finns were the friends of the Nazi Nation! Finnish President Carl Gustaf Mannerheim named the Nazi soldiers in a letter to Adolf Hitler: "Our German brothers-in-arms..." Obvious, Finland was an ally of the criminal Nazi nation and also took part in the raid on the Soviet Union in 1941. The Finns fought side by side with these criminal mass murderers. Finland did this to conquer territory. Apparently Finland not only wanted the lost territories of the Winter War of 1940, but also wanted to take other territories away from the Soviets. The Finnish parliament declared that the aim of the war was to restore the areas lost during the winter war and to gain more areas in the east in order to create a Greater Finland. President Ryti said this to the Finnish Parliament in 1941. By September 1941, the Finns recaptured the territories lost in the Winter War. However, the Finnish Army continued the offensive past the pre-1939 border with the conquest of Soviet territories, as well as halting only around 30-32 km (19-20 mi) from the center of Leningrad, where they participated in besieging the city by cutting its northern supply routes and digging in until 1944. The Finnish fleet also participated in the sea blockade of the city. It would have been terrible if the Nazi Nation had won together with the Finns the 2nd world war. This victory would have meant the destruction of the Soviet Union and various genocides against the Slavic peoples of the Soviet Union. But also elsewhere they would have exterminated the Slavs, for example in Poland, whereby they would also have exterminated certain nonslavic nations. It's a fact that the attack of 1941 served to support the Germans in completely destroying the Soviet Union. The Finns also knew what the Germans were doing, because they were there at the siege of Leningrad. In addition, the Finns also supported the German attack on the Soviet city of Murmansk and tried to besiege this city together with the Germans. The Finns wanted more than just to retake the lost territories. The Finns wanted to benefit from the expected German victory over the Soviet Union and additionally conquer more Soviet territory. To win, the Finns supported the Nazi nation in the criminal siege of Leningrad, which was part of the racist war of annihilation against the Slavic population of the Soviet Union. Because the siege was intended to exterminate the population of Leningrad. That's why 1 million people died in Leningrad largely by starvation. Mostly civilians. Which shows that the Finns didn't care that millions of civilians died in this war. The Finns also attacked and besieged Murmansk together with the Germans, which was definitely not a Finnish city either. That is why Great Britain declared war on the Finns and attacked Finnish troops with bombers too. Finland was so the enemy of liberators of Europe because Finland has allied itself with absolute evil.
I am biased of course as a Finn. But why wasn't it mentioned that Soviets already had plans to "finish Finland off" after the truce of Winter war? In my opinion this is a big reason to go on the offensive as we knew Soviets would attack sooner or later after re-grouping.
I understand the desire to get back territory lost but Finland also occupied Soviet territory and planned to keep it if Germany won. They were warned by the US and UK to go no further.
Actually Finnish Army special forces started reconnaissance and sabotage missions against the Soviet Union on the Morning of June 22nd 1941 when the Barbarossa started. Mannerheim authorized these operations but demanded that the men wore civilian clothes and that they were transported with German airplanes because Finland and USSR were not yet at war officially.
There were also scouting patrols sent across border much earlier than that. Some even with some sort of special rubber boots supposed to be able to confuse the dogs the NKVD borders troops used. But then again that wasn't particularly surprising. Though the other side was doing it too.
@@mikkotoikka3188 For starters (in Finnish): www.iltalehti.fi/kotimaa/a/a98051f5-b01d-4630-9c58-54b191694de5 or www.doria.fi/bitstream/handle/10024/156930/Hankitun_tiedon_varassa_web.pdf (there are more specific books on the matter too)
Yes, that describes the Finnish raid on the Soviet Union together with the Germans! Because they were the friends of the Nazi Nation! Finnish President Carl Gustaf Mannerheim named the Nazi soldiers in a letter to Adolf Hitler: "Our German brothers-in-arms..." Obvious, Finland was an ally of the criminal Nazi nation and also took part in the raid on the Soviet Union in 1941. The Finns fought side by side with these criminal mass murderers. Finland did this to conquer territory. Apparently Finland not only wanted the lost territories of the Winter War of 1940, but also wanted to take other territories away from the Soviets. The Finnish parliament declared that the aim of the war was to restore the areas lost during the winter war and to gain more areas in the east in order to create a Greater Finland. President Ryti said this to the Finnish Parliament in 1941. By September 1941, the Finns recaptured the territories lost in the Winter War. However, the Finnish Army continued the offensive past the pre-1939 border with the conquest of Soviet territories, as well as halting only around 30-32 km (19-20 mi) from the center of Leningrad, where they participated in besieging the city by cutting its northern supply routes and digging in until 1944. The Finnish fleet also participated in the sea blockade of the city. It would have been terrible if the Nazi Nation had won together with the Finns the 2nd world war. This victory would have meant the destruction of the Soviet Union and various genocides against the Slavic peoples of the Soviet Union. But also elsewhere they would have exterminated the Slavs, for example in Poland, whereby they would also have exterminated certain nonslavic nations. It's a fact that the attack of 1941 served to support the Germans in completely destroying the Soviet Union. The Finns also knew what the Germans were doing, because they were there at the siege of Leningrad. In addition, the Finns also supported the German attack on the Soviet city of Murmansk and tried to besiege this city together with the Germans. The Finns wanted more than just to retake the lost territories. The Finns wanted to benefit from the expected German victory over the Soviet Union and additionally conquer more Soviet territory. To win, the Finns supported the Nazi nation in the criminal siege of Leningrad, which was part of the racist war of annihilation against the Slavic population of the Soviet Union. Because the siege was intended to exterminate the population of Leningrad. That's why 1 million people died in Leningrad largely by starvation. Mostly civilians. Which shows that the Finns didn't care that millions of civilians died in this war. The Finns also attacked and besieged Murmansk together with the Germans, which was definitely not a Finnish city either. That is why Great Britain declared war on the Finns and attacked Finnish troops with bombers too. Finland was so the enemy of liberators of Europe because Finland has allied itself with absolute evil.
To say that Finnish leaders "deny" Finland's invasive war is an exaggeration, it's just one of those chapters of history that doesn't get brought up as much as the more glorious events. At least I was taught in history class that Continuation War was a conquering war where Finns were the aggressors, and I never heard anyone claim otherwise.
It was, however, important that Finland wasn't technically the first to make a move. One may think that that's an insignificant detail -- nitpicking -- but Ryti's attention to detail and technicalities proved extremely important in the end.
Besides that territory in the south east of Finland, which Finland lost to Russia, there was also such territory in the north east of Finland. Thus, Russia then bordering on Norway.
This is all very interesting, but there’s one big misunderstanding here. Mannerheim did not lead the country and make all those decisions. All decisions about joining or not joining the war as well as how far the offence would go and when trying to get out of the war were made by Finnish government and president Ryti. In cooperation with the marshal naturally. It is also interesting that all his life Mannerheim did not especially like Germans in general and had nothing personally against the Russian. He was also a personal friend of Churchill’s. And president Ryti was a known anglophile who had formed close connections to England during his time as the director of the Bank of Finland.
Mannerheim had much influence in the government personally and was listened to very carefully. He certainly had much against the Soviet Union . He fought against them and the previous government and was a conservative opposed to the Soviets. He was certainly not in tune with Nazi ideology but let us not completely whitewash him and his decisions.
Cary Black Why would there be a need to whitewash anything or anybody? It is a known fact that Mannerheim hated Soviet Union and the Russian communist regime. But not Russian people. And the main point was that they were not ’his decisions’ the way it is presented here. It was not in his hands to decide about war.
@@caryblack5985 Whitewash? What is that what is whitewashed? Being on wrong side? Do think that it would have been better fight for communism like western allies did? If you say they did not, can you say Finland did not fight for nazis? I understand Finland fought for its independence but got assistance only from Germany (who of course had its own targets too). So for what is your whitewash?
Mannerheim's career began in the Russian Empire. From his point of view -- and others fought for the Whites in Russia, Finland, and Estonia -- Russia died with the Romanovs.
It is pretty well known here in Finland that Mannerheim detested Hitler, Mannerheim was an aristocrat and a gentleman and disliked characters like Hitler.
Nice video and pretty fair. But there are missing few quite essential events. First, Russian menaced Finland during the summer 1940 (shot down a finish passenger plane, demanded nickel mine in Petsamo, demanden a free passageway from Leningrad to headland of Hanko and the most important begged from Hitler a permission to finish off the case of Finland. Molotov did it 9 times during a two days meeting in Berlin 11 / 1940. Hitler denied it every time). So there were no doubt which side Finland should have to choose! And of course Finland was prepared (like in Winter War), otherwise Russians should have walked in!
Oh wow Indy, you really meant it when you said you would do a biography of Carl Gustaf Mannerheim recently last week after I mentioned about the secret recording of Adolf Hilter's private conversational voice in the Midway weekly episode special. Thanks World War Two Team!
So what is relevant regarding the Finnish President Carl Gustaf Mannerheim is that named the Nazi soldiers in a letter to Adolf Hitler: "Our German brothers-in-arms..." Obvious, Finland was an ally of the criminal Nazi nation and also took part in the raid on the Soviet Union in 1941. The Finns fought side by side with these criminal mass murderers. Finland did this to conquer territory. Apparently Finland not only wanted the lost territories of the Winter War of 1940, but also wanted to take other territories away from the Soviets. The Finnish parliament declared that the aim of the war was to restore the areas lost during the winter war and to gain more areas in the east in order to create a Greater Finland. President Ryti said this to the Finnish Parliament in 1941. By September 1941, the Finns recaptured the territories lost in the Winter War. However, the Finnish Army continued the offensive past the pre-1939 border with the conquest of Soviet territories, as well as halting only around 30-32 km (19-20 mi) from the center of Leningrad, where they participated in besieging the city by cutting its northern supply routes and digging in until 1944. The Finnish fleet also participated in the sea blockade of the city. It would have been terrible if the Nazi Nation had won together with the Finns the 2nd world war. This victory would have meant the destruction of the Soviet Union and various genocides against the Slavic peoples of the Soviet Union. But also elsewhere they would have exterminated the Slavs, for example in Poland, whereby they would also have exterminated certain nonslavic nations. It's a fact that the attack of 1941 served to support the Germans in completely destroying the Soviet Union. The Finns also knew what the Germans were doing, because they were there at the siege of Leningrad. In addition, the Finns also supported the German attack on the Soviet city of Murmansk and tried to besiege this city together with the Germans. The Finns wanted more than just to retake the lost territories. The Finns wanted to benefit from the expected German victory over the Soviet Union and additionally conquer more Soviet territory. To win, the Finns supported the Nazi nation in the criminal siege of Leningrad, which was part of the racist war of annihilation against the Slavic population of the Soviet Union. Because the siege was intended to exterminate the population of Leningrad. That's why 1 million people died in Leningrad largely by starvation. Mostly civilians. Which shows that the Finns didn't care that millions of civilians died in this war. The Finns also attacked and besieged Murmansk together with the Germans, which was definitely not a Finnish city either. That is why Great Britain declared war on the Finns and attacked Finnish troops with bombers too. Finland was so the enemy of liberators of Europe because Finland has allied itself with absolute evil. ------------------------- Yes and in 1938 Czechoslovak mobilized 1 250 000 soldiers. The information about the Polish army is also wrong in 1939. Because at that time Poland had a 1 million army and the 5th largest army in the world! The information about the French is also wrong! In 1939 the French Army had 900,000 regular soldiers. However, it another 5 million reservists who had been trained and could be called-up in time of war. And the British Army had a regular army of 227,000 men, who were supported by a reserve of 173,700 men. In fact, the majority of the German army was engaged in combat in Poland in 1939, including 90% of the German air force. So if the French and British had attacked massively in the west, as agreed with Poland, the Germans would have been defeated quickly. But these cowardly "allies" of the Poles betrayed Poland and instead of attacking massively in the west, they hid in the bunkers and thus gave away a victory. Through this cowardly behavior they made possible the unimaginable crimes of the Nazi nation. A total of 50 million died as a result of the fighting and various genocides committed by the Nazi nation.
Soviet Union was given a naval base in Hanko as part of the peace treaty following the Winter War and they were allowed to move troops to this base through Finland. So by the summer of 1941, there were both German and Soviet troops moving though Finnish territory.
The fact that the continuation war started with soviet troops entrenched like an hour's drive from Helsinki is weirdly often forgotten in Finland. The battles around Hanko and the surrounding islands are very interesting.
Fun fact: 35,000 is the total casualties of the red guard. Only 7400 reds were executed or "butchered" how you say it, and 1500 russians. All of them were given the death sentence during the war by battlefield courts which had been given the right to charge and condemn people by the senate under a "poikkeuslaki" ("an exception law", Finland had no constitution nor laws beside the russian ones to lean on to yet, they came in 1919.) Reasons for the death sentence ranged from treason to inciting a rebellion to murder of civillians or lifestock but most were executed for treason. The red guard were no innocent little angels. They did their fair share of butchering. 1400 white guard soldiers were executed with no battlefield courts and much like the bolševiks in Russia, the red guards went around killing bourgeoisie which they believed were "oppressors". The red guard were mere civillians that had gotten weapons from russian garrisons to rise against the government in an already hard time. It's treason in it's highest form. You need to look at history in the context of the era where it happened. You are looking at it from the context of 2024 with very socialist/liberal world views thinking it was a genocide where evil bad Mannerheim "butchered" innocent socialists for fun when in reality the socialists themselves started an armed revolution against the legal government and drove them out of Helsinki by violence. They attacked first against government troops. It was treason against Finland that had been independent for 2 months only, and thus everybody charged with treason was executed like in every other country in 1918. Nowdays they won't execute, but back then it was protocol. Mannerheim is the reason Finland isn't a post soviet state that got independent in 1991. That's what makes him a hero, and 90% of Finland agrees on that. Only far left people think he is evil.
This was a very professionally done episode. Again, covering in a short time, both perspectives. Finnish involvement in WW2, from Barbarossa onwards (or if we want to count the Winter War), is something that remains (and it will remain) a controversial topic. But you covered it with respect. This is such a great channel. Hoping to see an episode on Ante Pavelic and Ustashe. No need for leniency in that a case...
The full name of Marshal Mannerheim was Carl Gustaf Emil Mannerheim. He himself used the name Gustaf Mannerheim, because his father and older brother were Carl Mannerheim, too. In Russia his name was Gustaf Karlovitsh Mannerheim, He signed his letters and documents with ”Gustav Mannerheim” or simply Mannerheim. So, please, edit that front picture of the video.
Finland is very interesting WW2 wise, I would suggest if Germany had not lost WW2 history would paint their participation very differently, at least in part because of the mental gymnastics that the allies needed to do to paint the Soviet Union into a positive light
Finland would have probably tried to take everything west of White Sea-Lake Onega-Lake Ladoka axis if the Soviet Union capitulated hard and then tried to exit any further conflicts. Well that's at least the popular opinion, I'm not studied enough to make an informed claim.
@@inoppi maybe not seppo, even at the time, Finland knew karjala was a poor and mostly soviet population. we might have just given them kariela back for free, in trade.
Very good historical review ! I agree with your opinions . I am a Finn born after the WWII . My father survived the war. He spent 3 and half years in the trenches and later studied in Helsinki University . A true Finn!
Noticed couple detail mistakes with the pictures. One picture there is text "Finnish troops marching in the Soviet Union, July 1941". Troops are actually in Finland and they are marching in TO the Soviet Union. Location is inside current Finnish borders.
Second picture there is text "Carl Mannerheim in Helsinki, 1917". Year there is wrong. Time is May 1918 when white troops come to Helsinki after German troops had taken it from Finnish Red forces..