Is it "SHE and I" or "ME and HER"? Don't make 'Fake Grammar' mistakes 

I'm a native English speaker in the US, and I sometimes like to use excruciatingly correct grammar with people in casual situations just to annoy them (eg "It was I who spoke first" or "To whom did you give the book?" etc). And for some strange reason, it DOES seem to bother some people to an unreasonable degree.

With all due respect: I've got more confused than I've ever been

When I was learning Spanish as an adult,it was very confusing when a native speaker used improper grammar. The beauty of that language is the rigid verb conjugation with the number and person integrated in that conjugated verb. I think it is cruel to speak English incorrectly with a person learning it as a second language.They likely have invested a lot of effort in learning the convoluted English grammar rules only to have them put in question by hearing someone violate them. I often tell the learner to not worry about speaking English correctly because no one else does either.After all,English is what Germans speak when they’re too drunk to make sense .

Gideon: "Doesn't option B sound more natural than option A?" Me: "No, nothing about English sounds natural to ESL/EFL learners. We learn what you English teachers teach us. And then we adapt it to what the native English speakers are actually saying in real life, outside of classrooms."

Thank you very much for this. I really appreciate your effort. You are my favourite English teacher ☺️

In my opinion both are correct. It depends on the context. I would speak very differently if I was with close friends compared to an interview or a court appearance.

Hi Gideon, I always love your podcasts. I agree with you MOSTLY today - I agree with your explanations on the subleties of I/me, depending on the context. BUT I would always place the other person first, and then my own person, i.e., Jane and I / Jane and me, not the other way around..... in any language..... I was taught this is the polite way, and this is how I teach my students (English, German and French) - I am 74 years old now, but I'd rather stick to it! Continue your fabulous work!😊

Me, myself and I enjoy your videos, Sir.

But with the "it is I" example, the verb to be is conjugated to the third person, so you would expect "it" to be the subject, so in that case the more "formal" version should not even be considered correct by prescriptivists if they were to be consistent

The hypercorrection you speak of (😉) drives me crazy, as English is not my first language, but something I learned in school as a native German speaker. We were absolutely drilled in using object and subject pronouns correctly, which I guess comes easily to native German speakers anyway. But there always was the caveat, that it is sometimes "correct" to use the object pronouns in everyday language. However, in the past ten years or so, I encounter more and more native English speakers, who seem to try very hard to show how "sophisticated" they are by constantly using subject pronouns, when object pronouns would be correct. Most of the English I hear is in sports commentary, most often golf, and I constantly hear sentences like: "There are branches between he and the hole" or "We had the opportunity to talk to he and his wife yesterday" or: "It is always interesting to hear the conversations between he and his caddy." I always wonder, how people can think that this is correct. I suppose I am so sensitive about it, because there are a lot of similar examples in German. People who try to "avoid" making mistakes, which are commonly made by less educated people or who try to use the "more sophisticated" expression, and by doing so, get their grammar completely wrong. "Wie" and "als" ("as" and "than") are prime examples in German or "hinten" and "rückwärts" ("back" and "backwards"). "Bitte auch rückwärts einsteigen" is something you can hear all the time in German or Austrian railway and subway stations, when they try to get people to use the back doors as well. What they are actually saying is "Please enter backwards". But the correct "hinten einsteigen" is obvioulsy too "primitive" for these people, because "Hintern" is the word for the part of your body on which you sit. 😁

Highly esteem your presentations, Sir Gideon ! Like you, I am a philologist (albeit, armchair versions.) As an East Coast American, I am shamed and embarrassed by the sloppy, uncritical, unreflective diction used in this place today, and have spent the best part of my seventy-some years attempting to correct the bad language habits imbibed in my youth. Studying Latin, Greek, Hebrew, German, French and now Russian and Old Slavonic has helped me immeasurably with grammar and syntax. So your videos are among my favorites. Teach me to speak in RP, Sir, and I shall forever be in your debt. Sprach und Geschichte... es gibt nicht mehr.

I see native English teachers living in Brazil speaking Portuguese who make mistakes with pronouns, they are so natural that they have a certain charm, I will agree with you, it is important to keep speaking and studying, thanks Gideon, A very clear video🤩

Your videos are always highly informative and entertaining! Many thanks and cheers from Greece

Dear Gideon, I was so sure about myself and about "you and I". Perhaps too much. Thank you, because any doubt gives me more chance to learn.

Thank you for this enlightening video, Gideon!

Keep on watching your videos is such a good way to improve our English!!Thank you Gideon!! 😃👏🏻👏🏻😃

At school - a long time ago - my teacher said you can tell which is correct by substituting ‘we’ for I, or ‘us’ for me. I write historical novels and it’s a really handy way of checking because, as you say, we’ve got used to the incorrect and now it often sounds better.

3:40 I’m glad you qualified that ‘almost’ everybody would pick ‘b’. Personally I quite like to announce myself by saying “It is I!” and staring into the distance melodramatically. It adds a nice bit of drama into an otherwise dull day. Normally my answer would be “who do you think?”

Crikey !! Never did that occur to me on reading The Merchant of Venice -- that 'you and I ' thing. Thanks Sir G.

Thanks a lot for your video lessons Gideon. Always pleasure and fun to watch you. BTW where did you get this t-shirt? I’d like to have one like this as well!

Gideon Okay Gideon, I totally agree with you. I do speak a few languages and I have rarely used a grammarbook. I pick up languages through listening, reading, writing and using what I know. The best situation for me was always a certain period of residence in the particular country from which I wanted to learn the language. I always experiended a great deal of appreciation as a foreigner when I tried hard to communicate. Correct grammar never was the question.

Could I ask you to do a video on the increasing use of "likely" in cases where "probably" should properly be used?

I retire on 1st January 2024, having been an ESL teacher for the last twenty years. My New Year's resolution will be to stop correcting anyone anymore 😂🎉.

Thank you for the video. Your last sentence led me to a question: what do you think about pressure of millions of strangers on English (as virtual "Esperanto")?

Great video 👍

Thanks for this lesson. I might though try to rationalize a couple of strict rules: (1) After prepositions, one always uses me, him, etc. instead of I, he, etc.; (2) Wheras the object normally takes the form I, he, etc., the subject takes me, him. Am I right?

Finally I found the answer to my questions thank you ! And if Shakespeare made mistakes also, what a release !

I know comparing languages is tricky, but in Dutch we will never use "Jij en mij" (You and me), it is always "Jij en ik" (You and I).

@bacca - not necessarily, language changes/evolves. What seemed to be correct in Shakespearean times is not necessarily so today.

I honestly don't know what I like more - your awesome lessons or your wristband🙄☺

I thought in a sentence such as "it is x" the subject was "it" and "x" was a (direct) object, hence I would say "it is me". Good to know it is more complicated...

If I am writing or speaking in a more formal setting, I would use the "I" form, not "me". Back in 1968 I was writing to my exchange host family in Germany. In one sentence I was trying to translate the "it's me" informal form directly into what I thought would be informal German. But I was a bit perplexed. Should I use "mir" or "mich"? The correct answer of course was "ich". After a couple of months there, the conversation revolved around the English (American?) use of "me and him went to the movie." My host father said, that is why I had used "mir". Fortunately, my host mother spoke no English. I truly enjoyed my time when we talked together. One particular day we were talking about what to say for confession - both being Catholic. Trying to think of "sins", she used the word in German for a lie. To best explain it, she pointed to their dog's tail. Interesting how the German and English words had that same second meaning.

Thanks a lot. Can you spare a couple of minutes an tell me what you think of usage of PV in active construcnions like " since you ve been gone",What is it?Thank you.

Why do people (usually management types) sometimes say 'myself' in stead of 'me', for example, 'When you have finished the report, please send it to myself.'?

Hello Gideon, and thanks for your videos, I enjoy your style and the endless nuances of the English language very much! If you have the time, could you please let me know your opinion in this matter: more and more people lately start answering any question with the word “so”. It is being used as a sort of springboard to launch the answer, or a crutch to support it. Even people who should master the English language, such as journalists and writers, begin answering with “so” unnecessarily. Is it an annoying fad that will hopefully go away soon, or will it be incorporated into the language so that we will all have to say “so” every time before we begin an actual sentence? Thank you, and be well!

The problem with calling rules fake rules is at the end of the day, we have a language with no rule and it's even harder to learn and master. "Teacher, why???" "Shut-up, and learn it like that!"

'It is I, Leclerc'

hi Gideon… i love your videos - your channel is one of my favs. why do you say some rules are fake (old person here…)? what makes a rule valid/genuine? who‘s in charge😂? i’m a native english speaker, currently learning german, so you can imagine…ich, mich, mir, ihn, ihr, ihm etc…

It's always seemed to me that there's two ways to view "A and B will do X". One is that you are listing two independent subjects that are acting on the same object. In that case, you use the subjective personal pronouns, "He and I will go home". The other is that "me and him" is a semantic grouping that acts as a single subject in the sentence "me and him will go home". It's natural because when speaking off the cuff it's easy to present the subject before you've even thought of the verb or object. It's also why the latter is order-independent - "him and me" is just as right as "me and him".

Yes, that hypercorrection phenomenon has gone too far. A few months ago, one of my students asked me, "Dr. Tanyel, were you there for [Joe] and I's presentation?"

In the US, they always say _"[X] and I,"_ never _"[X] and me,"_ regardless of whether the phrase is the subject or the object of a verb. Same with _"who/whom"_ - Americans always say _"who,"_ never _"whom."_ I like the American usage rather than the pedantic UK one for a couple of reasons: • *No ambiguity:* Whether you say _"... and I"_ or _"... and me,"_ the meaning is unambiguous to the listener. Same with _"who"_ v. _"whom."_ And therefore: • *Simplicity and consistency:* Having the same form really makes it easy to focus on content-what you want to say-rather than grammar-how you say it. Otherwise, you waste valuable moments of your creative process worrying about which form you should use. As for _"Jane and I"_ v. _"I and Jane"_ - I was taught that you always put yourself last, out of politeness. And for consistency. That's good enough for me. I can think of almost no situation where the two alternate phrasings mean different things. The only exception that I know of is if the other side of _"and"_ is very long. In that case, you put the _"I"_ first: _"I and a handful of my Saturday evening poker buddies ..."_ But again, that's just a matter of preference. Of course, as you pointed out, there are always hypercorrectors around who'll interject with *_"me*, not *I"_* or *_"whom,_*_ not _*_who."_* But such people are universally despised.

In German there's the saying "Nur der Esel nennt sich selbst zuerst!". Which is meant as a reminder that it is regarded as impolite when you put yourself first in a sentence when another person is involved as well. So, in German it will be much more polite to say "Sie und ich" instead of "Ich und sie", although both sentences are correct. Is there some similar unwritten rule in English?

Totally agree. Fancy people do not have anything better to do than checking your grammar... Have a great day.

I remember encountering some of these arrangements when dabbling in helping someone to learn English.

In French, Jane et moi arriverons à 20 heures. In Dutch, Jane en ik arriveren om 20.00 uur. Both are correct, it depends if you use the Germanic or French root of our language.

Thank you

Hey. Where can I get that grand T-shirt you're wearing?

" GOW Ares : It was I who saved you in your time of greatest need ". I'm not native but I deal with people that are natives and some who are not but can confirm few things: RU-vidrs from their daily job doing video and recording stuffs speaks english more then enough to be understandable by anyone which in real life when dealing with others you'll find the lack of pronunciation, many I founded on UK surprisingly and after few weeks of speaking with them, at some point there will be an accommodation somehow mechanical that makes you understand the sentences automatically. Still like this channel :)

After watching this video, me thinks that I have been well informed!

Thanks.

Question 1 is a trick question, isn't it? The correct answer is _"... will be arriving at _*_18:00_**_ hours,"_* not _"... 6pm."_

Hypercorrects be like Billy and I's marriage

Back in the day, a long time ago in a place far far away, I was taught it was merely polite to put the other person first in the sentence, rather than it being a grammatical absolute; eg - she and I, John and I or John and myself. It sorts of dodges the usage of 'me', whereas 'Me and my mates' would be informally acceptable. I'm not sure if register is exactly the same as context in this situation. For me ( or should that be I ?) it would also depend if it was spoken or written.

Loved the video, thought provoking as a native English speaker - though is this not also about use of demonstrative pronouns as a way to make a point or make something stand out ... just for the sake of it? I've seen most of your videos now - keep 'em coming! :)

3:40 -Who's there? -It is I, Cato Sicarius, the Knight Champion of Macragge, and as such, no foul xeno could ever outmatch the legendary swordsmanship of I, Cato Sicarius, but if I, Cato Sicarius was you, wich I, Cato Sicarius, am not, as I, Cato Sicarius, am the most esteemed Cato Sicarius, I, Cato Sicarius, would personally use the noun I, Cato Sicarius. But tbh that sounds sooo incorrect, if there is no "am" after the "I, Cato Sicarius" :D

I do ask that my son say "[name] and I" when we're conversing to save me from chewing madly on an electrical cord as a diversion from the frustration. However, I also realize that the natural state of any language is to be in flux. Maybe English will someday evolve to include codified honorific verbiage, where "Jane and I" and "Me and Jane" both have a place in speech? 🤷‍♀️ My bugbear is lack of proper punctuation. Seems everyone's a fan of the run-on sentence lately; and when they're topped off with five exclamation points I reach for the cord again.

If Shakespeare wrote it, that's the right way.

Social register: "Jane and I have been invited to a reception" versus "Me and Stace are going to a knees-up". But why only the two forms? What happened to "I and Jane" and "Stace and me"? I suspect these were eliminated from the language because, traditionally, people who cared about grammar also cared about courtesy and put Jane first, whereas people who didn't care about grammar didn't care about courtesy, and put themselves first. Which is okay 'cos Stace don't give a monkey's anyway.

I find ‘Me and Jane‘ impolite - not because of ‘me‘ but because it is in the first place. It should be ‘Jane and me‘; in German this is the preferred usage.

The argument from misuse being so popular 8it now should also count as correct is loathsome. What is the fun in being right if there is suddenly no longer a wrong? Cue the rant by Jane Fonda in "The Newsroom" about how Literally now literally can mean both literally and figuratively.

To resolve this conflict, it would be necessary to introduce disjunctive (a.k.a. tonic or stressed) pronouns into English just like "moi", "toi", ... in French.

Which music is being used in the background?

If “you and I” or “you and me” are the answer to an implied “who?”,then it is a question of whether “who?”is a subject or object. I recently discovered that my daughter is a grammar nazi too so we always have something to talk about.

It's-a-me, Mario!

Is this correct: "It is I." ? I can understand if one goes on to say "..., who does, did or have dnoe so and so....". But "It is I." one its own? Though I've heard it many a time before, I am not convinced that it is correct.

The problem is if you don’t use the grammar which some people consider correct, then those people will look down on you and think you are uneducated.

I would tend to use the object pronouns following "it is ...", but I'd absolutely never say "me and Jane are ..." And "between you and I" is mega cringe!

Answering to your last question, I'd say yes, grammar nazies are a modern plague! Though nowadays it becomes so irritating to hear and read people butchering our beloved language (here I'm mostly referring to MY beloved French language but I assume many English speakers can relate too). Sometimes I can't stop myself from intervening and correcting something that's making my eyes or ears bleed (I hope some people won't feel the same.reading my prose...).

Hypercorrection is every grammar lover’s enemy number one!! A scourge (am I being dramatic? 🤔). Once as a kid I heard my French aunt saying "au cas zou" and she planted the doubt in my head, I wondered for years whether or not I was wrong to pronounce it differently so much so I avoided the expression for a long time! Then I have discovered she was a "victim" of hypercorrection. No one is to be spared!! 😱 Anyway back to point, I thought the rule was to use "I" when completing an action and "me" when the verb was "passive" for instance "my friends and I were fixing the roof" but "my dog and me were sunbathing". That being said, I could well have been following one of those fake rules 🤷🏻‍♀️

Hello, Just to begin, English is my second language and I have a question: how incorrect it is to say: Jane and myself will arrive… ? Many thanks for your answer.

Ha! Trying to use logic on an illogical language to determine the "correct" grammar rules. Trust me, it's a fool's game. In mathematics and logic, it is well known that when you start with an inconsistent set of axioms, you can prove anything you want-including their opposites!

The "minority opinion" that "'between you and I' is also correct" that Gideon mentions at 09:28 might be a minority opinion, but it's a correct opinion, isn't it? If I remember rightly it's the opinion given in the Cambridge Grammar of The English Language by Huddleston and Pullum. Is there a different grammar that has better opinion based on stronger evidence or better reasoning?

I really do say "It is I". And I even devoice my wh's in such sentences as "When will you be arriving?" And I am sitting here writing this in red-and-black plaid flannel trousers and a black long-sleeved T-shirt with a left breast pocket whose upper edge is trimmed with a strip of flannel matching my trousers. Do I look like an 18th-century dandy? I dare say I'm not quite _that_ old :P

Where I grew up (New England), it was considered extraordinarily rude to refer to yourself first in front of the other person. Always: "Annette and I walked into the woods." Never, ever: "I and Annette walked into the woods." or "Me and Annette walked into the woods" (if you make Annette vanish, you would have "Me walked into the woods." Ugh! I think 'English English' and 'American English' have a difference here. And as I watch a fair amount Brit TV shows, this explains why I was amazed at the bad grammar of obviously educated Brits on occasion. It was this exact usage of 'me' and 'I.' Like dragging fingernails down a blackboard. I'll be more understanding in the future, but will forgive The Bard anything.

Perhaps when the rozzers are asking questions, the one answering will say, : it was him who did whatever the crime was and not it was he, because he’s physically pointing out the individual, whereas if the individual wasn’t present he’d be more compelled to say : it was he, with the assumption that the subject had already been established, meaning coppers would actually understand what he meant by “he” and not “him”. However more likely it’s because he’s afraid the police isn’t even going to give him enough time to say an entire sentence, therefore saying it is him, already forms a complete statement, after which the talker would carry on telling his story with slightly less fear of being cut off than having said : it was HE who bla-bla-bla. Which one of those 2 reasons do you like more 😂😂

C: Oy! It’smee, innit?

How about: Myself, and Jane...

I tucking knew it. "You and I" always rubbed me the wrong way, and now it's ubiquitous even in literature. This push for hyper correct language is also plaguing my native language, Romanian.

Couldn't agree more. There's a snobby attitude in English towards the vernacular, as though it were incorrect. There's always some wannabe pedant who corrects "less" to "fewer," or haitch to aitch and so on.

Me Tarzan, you Jane.

I think that in the case of linking verbs like "to be", which don't show an action but rather describe the subject of the verb, having the verb followed by pronouns in the object form is correct and logical, instead 😊......the verb already has a subject and the pronoun that follows the verb performs a complementary function that adds more details to the subject itself. So, based on my reasoning, the sentence "It is I" would make no sense and would even be grammatically incorrect ☺️ Different matter for question tags with the auxiliary verb "to be" that are subject to another grammatical rule and have another linguistic function. That's just my point of view 🙂 Cheers, Gideon.

Regarding "between you and I/me and the BBQ". As standard the subject goes before the object, so you could say that "you" is on the subject side of the comparison, and "the BBQ" is on the object side. In order to make it clear which side I am on, I would use "I" if I am on the subject side i.e. grouped with "you", and "me" if I am on the object side i.e. grouped with "the BBQ". I am well aware that they are technically all subjects, but as I see it, you sometimes need to break the grammar rules, for the sake of clarity.

Yay!

" ...... from now on, you and I are enemies..... "

Yes, me totally agree with he.

I am an English only speaker and as an older person I would say my wife and I will be coming or she who must be obeyed and I have been there before. But in conversation as a couple I would say you and me... and how high dear.

'It is I' is of course wrong. The verb is congruent with 'It', making it the subject, which means an object should follow. That's 'me', in this case. The correct use of 'I' reads as follow: I am it. That's how Dutch and German still do it, among many other languages. It's possible English was influenced by French here. Spanish and Italian don't do it this way.

in my language we would say "we with Jane"

I was taught that the use of me as a subject is caused by French influence, where je & moi can both me subjects depending on whether the pronoun is stressed. Is this a legit theory?

I need an entire English Grammar book written by you. Mine is no longer useful ❤❤

what about "me and you/me and her = us" and "you and I/he = we?

"She and I" is used in the subjective case. "Me and her" is used in the objective case. Examples - "She and I have a surprise for you." "Give that thing to me and her, and then please leave the room."

Dunno. "I and Jane" and "Me and Jane" both sound wrong. I would never mention myself first. It's not grammatically wrong, but it does sound impolite to my ears. But, ok. That's probably just me.

A is rude because you never put yourself first.

❤❤❤

Colloquial English is the 'living' language of the common person. However, the use of colloquial English in a formal document does cast a shadow on the writer's educational background and lack of respect for the intended reader. I agree with @roxismit6122's assessment that putting oneself first is rude. Was it your intention not to append 'ly' on the use word 'correct' as an adverb at 00:40? The use of the adjective in place of the adverb form is becoming common. Otherwise, I enjoy your video offerings and sense of humour.

You always speak your partners name first, especially if you want to sleep with them later. Also, who's there? Me. I don't know anyone named me, who is it really? And I always want an answer to the question 'who made the rules and why?'

“these kind”?

I don't get why you would think that "I" is the subject in the sentence "It is I". When you say "he is ..." then clearly "he" is the subject. Similarly when you say "it is ..." then "it" is the subject. If you said "I am it" instead, then "I" would be the subject.

it's me. i'm me.