This topic is so important... I don't know how in 2023 there are still so many piano teachers who forces de student to do a finger legatto even in the most uncomfortable and dangerous passages. Thanks. Great video as always.
Yes, it is quite striking. "Finger legato always" is an old way of teaching (even though ironically the idea of legato without finger legato stems directly from Chopin's own pedagogy), and many teachers choose to continue teaching the single way they were taught, rather than continue to learn from "rediscovered history" as well as more modern advancements in understanding neurology and body mechanics.
@@PianistAcademy1 i think it stems from (very) early keyboard or even harpsichord playing .....legato then was percieved and achieved in a different way......perhaps the old fingering technique and creation of legato went on a long while even after pedal introduction and classical and modern piano pieces, which indeed ask for different ways of playing....i guess
Thanks for watching, Jose! Coming at this concept as a composer myself, I feel like I may instinctively see the score differently than someone who is only a pianist. The marks placed on paper are all there to better convey what's in the composer's inner ear, not necessarily what's executed. I try to get all of my piano students to do some sort of composition for this reason... to free the mind and the ear up, learn to express more creatively, and most importantly if they want to be performers, learn how to better interpret the score itself by seeing it from the opposite perspective.
Maybe interesting to insert a video of your foot pedaling? So nice to see how precisely subtle pedaling is used creating legato yet having each note clearly audible
I totally agree. I think it is even more important for pianists with smaller hands where even notes relatively close together can cause an uncomfortable stretch between the fingers. Yet people will still argue that it should be strived for at all costs - go figure 😊
Yes! I find usually those who argue to finger legato at all costs fit into one of a few categories, 1) they haven't performed some of the big repertoire, 2) they specialize in early music or Beethoven at the "latest" and, 3) a combination of the two! I had a few very fine mentors who always insisted on me sticking "in" the keys and finger legato everywhere... they were masters of Bach and Beethoven, but they hadn't performed Liszt or Rachmaninoff in decades!
Great video and excellent example. Looking back, I can say that trying to finger-legato every line marked legato (especially in romantic music) was the biggest obstacle to relaxed hands, smooth sound and natural phrasing during my students years, but I simply did not have enough courage to ‘think out of the tradition’. Being a teacher now, I see that finding the most reasonable movement is an extremely important task for piano player. And it turns out to be a very creative part of our work, because there are almost no marks regarding physical movements in piano music notation: everything tells you what should sound but not how to achieve it actually. You just have to reinvent proper movements, using your taste and experience (and common sense, of course).
I absolutely agree with everything here. Ironically, when I was a younger student, I very rarely obeyed the legato markings with fingers and a majority of my teachers worked on instilling the necessity of true finger legato when it’s beneficial. But those occasions really are relatively few and far between, depending on the rep you are playing and/or teaching. And a huge yes to your comment on how creative developing an approach to executing the notes actually is!
My current piano teacher taught that idea at my first lesson (I only had 2 years of piano lessons with other old school teachers at my senior age), and yes, I was able to put my fingers in proper position and less tense, release right away because I don’t need to hold on to the notes. I was using half pedaling in Burgmuller op100-1 even the sound got a bit too dissonant due to scale-like phrases, but I started to enjoy creating sound with pedal because even playing one single note, if with pedal, sound could sing differently. Later on, I learned to play some Baroque pieces without pedal, but since my fingers weren’t so tense, I could experiment different voice tones. But I was invited by this piano teacher who’s not my teacher but an acquaintance, to join her recital with her other adult students, and she asked me to play it once just so she can check the people who’s joining her recital, and when I played the Burgmuller op100-1 with very light pedal, not even with any dissonance but she told me not to use penal at all in her recital. She’s in her late 60s, once studied in Vienna, but I was shocked when she said Burgmuller op100 should be no pedal except “Ave Maria”. She probably never understands how piano could sing in different voices. I asked her “what about the left chords when it has to transfer to distant place?” She said I should play right hand melody longer than it has to be, so it’s not so obvious. I’m glad she’s not my piano teacher. My current teacher says, if a student is small, and can’t use pedal, or they can’t produce the sound properly, what’s important is making them listen to the piece by teacher’s demonstration to let them feel that this is how piano can sing. I don’t actually mind if I can’t use the pedal for that piece, just for that occasion because I enjoy playing all I want at home with sound I want to create. But one can’t enjoy music if teacher limits her students that way.
Use of pedal is a very complex topic and any reason to or not to use pedal could be from a variety of perspectives... from performance practice, to acoustics of the recital space, to background of education and the teachers of that teacher! I've had a great many teachers tell me that pedal should *always* be used, but how much we hear it being used varies from composer to composer, piece to piece, and phrase to phrase.
Technically, you could do a finger substitution from 5-1 on the F# so it can still be held during the counter melody. Just saying it's possible, though I never did that when playing the piece myself.
You can (I even caught myself somewhat subconsciously doing it in this video), but you’ll still have to lift the thumb to play the next lower melody note so, no finger legato actually achieved. In the measures that follow, any sort of substitution becomes less and less viable. Thanks for watching!
lesson: dont create tension trying to play legato, if you can use a pedal to create legato, i wonder harpsichord and early piano music must ve used quite different fingering then later classical music...how interesting! I didnt realise that
It is definitely the biggest misconception about piano that it's played all with the hands. Good pedal technique is just as important to the overall piano playing. I do appreciate you using Rachmaninoff as an example as well because the common "joke" about playing Rachmainoff is that you need gigantic hands. It shows that using different skill sets like pedal technique can turn what could have been an awkward passage into something that flows very naturally.
Absolutely. And the commonality pedal and legato both have? Good technique is primarily based on listening! And yes, just look/listen to Yuja or Lisitsa playing Rach. They have probably have a span of only about a 9th, but no problems navigating Rach chords and arpeggios!
@@jowr2000 For a female pianist, a span of a good 9th is quite large! If she really does have a 10th, she has hands as large as most European men have!
Yup. That’s one of the many “highlights” of teaching I’ve seen over the years that led me to start this channel! I will say, sometimes finger legato is awkward and yet still needs to be learned… but there’s a big difference in “awkward because it’s a new concept” and “awkward because it’s simply bad technique.”
What about people who say play legato without the pedal? I actually think that without the pedal that a lot of phrases sound awful / borderline impossible to play legato
There are plenty of places through rep where we need to finger legato across or through pedal changes, so it’s important to know how to finger legato well. But that said, all of my own mentors agree that, as much as possible, the pedal should be used when playing… and not just for connection, but also for warmth of tone. Depending on the side of the argument you fall on for playing Bach with pedal, this could even extend into that. Pedal down doesn’t have to mean blurred if we are careful with it, but it will always provide extra resonance. If there’s a specific passage that need great finger legato, then it can be good to practice it a little bit without pedal. But 99% of the time outside of baroque and early classical period, completely dry playing sounds both not good and also not authentic.
@PianistAcademy1 this maybe a really simplified thing to say but if something is fast and staccato then I never use the pedal at all, and if it's a romantic piece with zero staccato then I probably use the pedal for 99% of it Two pieces springs to mind since you mentioned Bach...the preludes in C major and C minor. What are your views on the pedal usage in these two pieces? I saw someone play the C major one with no pedal at all and they were able to make it sound legato. I mean Insee the advantages of not using the sustain pedal because it doesn't sustain anything lol, but it still didn't sound as good as any pedal version I've heard.
@@nezkeys79 It's difficult to talk about music with general statements, but I think you are spot on. Something like the Ravel Toccata will of course be played with much less pedal than a Chopin Nocturne, but even in the case of the Toccata, the pedalling varies considerably depending on phrase and texture. I am generally more of a fan of pedal in Bach than no pedal in Bach. If I were a "period" specialist, I'd likely be the opposite, but that's not me. I perform Bach on the modern piano. I ask the question, if Bach were alive today and could hear the tonality of the modern piano, how would *he* want his music reproduced from hundreds of years prior? It's of course only supposition, but I think he'd much prefer using the "invention" of the pedal to enhance his work, rather than claim something he wrote for a completely different instrument should be attempted to be played in a more "authentic" way. I say this as a composer myself who regularly hears my work "re interpreted" by others. I have never heard someone else play my own work with the same phrasing and intention that I heard upon it's conception, but that doesn't make their interpretation wrong. It's actually enlightening sometimes to hear how someone else perceives what I put down on paper. Going back to Bach and once again to a general statement, knowing that generalities are inherently partially flawed: I usually prefer slow Bach with more pedal, sometimes approaching a romantic and "glued" together sound, much like how Lang Lang interprets the Prelude in C Maj. For faster Bach, I prefer much much less pedal and prefer to bring out the more "dance-like" texture that's present in the composition. That doesn't mean I won't pedal in faster Bach, but I'll be very choosy about it and make sure that any pedal I do use doesn't take away from the bounce, the articulation, and the importance of the silences as written in the score.
@@nezkeys79 Harpsichord or potentially clavichord or pipe organ. The earliest models of fortepiano were designed near the end of Bach's life and I don't believe he ever got the chance to play one... and even the earliest fortepianos are quite different from today's piano.
"Fake your Legato". This is why I don't care for pianos that are too bright. From my perspective, the weighting of the notes is critical. Clearly all skilled pianists have the ability to make the music flow. I've never been a person who can play without pedal. You have to listen to your own playing, and another factor for me is that it takes quite a while for a piece to settle in.
What is the deal of teaching Legato with your fingers when using the pedal all the time. It just doesn't teach me anything and doesn't make sense. I will go further, there is NO sign of a sustain pedal on the sheet. Now, don't get me wrong, it sounds great and you play very nice, but this doesn't go with the title. or the title should be " Legato mode is not made with your fingers"
The real point is that "legato" isn't exclusively about pedal nor is it exclusively about fingers. Yet, an incredible number of teachers teach that legato is ONLY about how the fingers are used... and that's plain and simply not true. Legato = smooth... fingers, finger pedaling, legatissimo, or damper pedal... they all produce different tones yet all are legato. Beyond that, ONLY teaching finger legato causes students to have less fluidity in moving around the keyboard and actually makes achieving virtuosity more difficult, not less. So "Is Legato Made With the Fingers?" In answer to that question, mostly no, sometimes yes, and most importantly, legato is a perception of sound... not something connected to one or two specific physical motions. As you say I use plenty of pedal here, which... is 100% appropriate given the rep I chose... and also proves the point that all of those lines in the music must be connected and "legato," yet most of them are impossible to play with finger legato. The excerpt was very specifically chosen to show that. Finger legato technique is important, but when taken as the only form of legato (which I've seen with transfer students and in masterclasses far too often) it causes more technical problems than it solves, and many times is a very wrong choice to begin with. Even Mr. Hough at the beginning of this video cites that very experience in his own training.
@@PianistAcademy1 You need good techmique first and then add the pedal to it, because well, the human is lazy in its nature and will rather have the easy way out (pedal) all the time. I agree that pedal must be learnt in order to be better, but it is exactly on the electric guitar: If you use distortion everytime, legato is smooth all the time and if you plan to play only distotion then that is OK, but is you don't and you take the distortion out, your clean sound will sound sloppy, stacatto and like a novice. Same with damper pedal and as I said, I came to this video thinking of tips on playing legato with your fingers and tbh, it is everything but that. Sounds great, but is more on playing legato with your foot
No, this video isn’t at all about playing legato with fingers and I don’t think the title makes it seem like it would be. I still think you’ve missed my point… legato isn’t made by the foot. Nor the fingers. Nor any other part of the body. It’s first and foremost an aural experience. And THAT is what must dictate the technique we choose to incorporate in our playing. The ear must develop before technique. Because, for many students (even collegiate students), finger legato isn’t true legato because they haven’t learned how to listen to their tone. And it doesn’t matter how connected fingers are if the underlying dynamic, rubato, and intention aren’t connected… Also, please please don’t let the pedal go by the wayside as you learn. It’s not a good approach to leave the pedal out 100% of the time while training the hands because it will cause technical issues in how the fingers, wrist, and arm execute. That kind of practice is one of the big reasons TO watch this video and to come to understand what good pedal work is about. Foot and hand work really should be learned together, and in the best situations you’ll come to understand when the fingers should be detached and the foot creates legato, and when the fingers and arm do it, and when both are needed. But, except for Baroque era purists, the pedal is essential to teaching the ear and the fingers. If you really desire, leave pedal out once in a while to hear your finger work under a microscope, but relatively little practice time should be spent doing that.
@@PianistAcademy1 I do get your point and I still believe that this title is misleading. Pedal must be a tool and it is great, I mean, you do sound good with it. But there are a lot of players that if for some reason pedal doesn’t work, they just sound sloppy. Better get the strength from your fingers and play pedal ONLY when indicated by the sheet music. Mozart sounds horrible when too much pedal and Chopin horrible when no pedal at all. It is a lot easier to develop pedal than have great technique in your fingers, risks and arms.
@@richierocha2312 I agree that bad pedaling "covers a multitude of sins" as one of my profs used to say. But I wouldn't call pedal a tool... unless you also call your fingers tools. Pedal is an inherent part of almost all piano writing and sheet music rarely gives good pedal indications. Just because it's not there is 99.9% of the time *not* an indication to not pedal. And often when it *is* there, the markings can be quite misleading about what's actually supposed to happen. To add to your example, playing Mozart with no pedal is wrong. But playing Mozart with Chopin-like pedal is also wrong. Playing Chopin with no pedal is wrong... playing Chopin with Mozart-like pedal is also wrong... playing Chopin with Debussy-like pedal is also wrong. The only guarantee is that, for music written after Bach and his contemporaries, no pedal will always be wrong. One of my mentors used to say that the best concert artists ALWAYS have the pedal in use to some degree... sometimes 1/4 pedal, sometimes flutter pedaling, sometime full sustain, sometimes quick jabs. It's down to the tone of each and every pitch made when the pedal is depressed vs not. The way I teach it in person, pedal creates a 3-dimensional tone when used correctly. And it starts to become apparent, once you hear the 3D tone, when pedal is lost or incorrectly used it sounds 2D in comparison. And in the best cases, you can take this all the way to learning how to create very clear and transparent lines (like needed in Mozart) but still utilize a whole lot of pedal in the process to create a bigger ring and more depth. Great pedal technique is equally hard to learn as great finger and hand technique... the trouble is that it's exceedingly difficult to teach in generalities, which is why you'll find little to no actual good content on advanced pedaling online. I've had students be able to "execute" Liszt Transcendental Etudes and some of the huge concerti repertoire, and still not fully understand what great pedaling is about, it's truly that deep of a topic.
