Lol, sometimes I get the feeling they click simply to comment on the title and don’t even watch more than 10 seconds!!! It’s super obvious when, in a vid like this, I actually contradict the title within the content itself 😂
These video's are always too long. Not that is not interesting, but there are thousands of video's like these on youtube. If you have to watch them all there is just no time for practising on the piano ;)
Thank you very much for helping me sort out my ideas on this question. I'm 71 years old and I still feel guilty about not changing fingers on repeated notes (as I was taught), even when it seems quite unnecessary to do so.
Excellent! Sometimes it's easy to get "locked in" to an "academic/doctrinal" position where, because one approach works well in one situation, it is therefore thought to be the "correct" approach for all situations. This is a liberating and well-grounded explanation which should open up the horizons for many. Youi seem to have an especial ability for doing that!
Thanks! I actually had the thought to make this video 2 weeks ago, when I was giving a masterclass to a 16 year old student playing the Mozart Sonata I quote before we get into Fur Elise. They were playing the same finger over and over on the repeats, but the tone was stagnant and I could see the tension building in their hand... which then wouldn't let them release into the scale passages that follow. I told the hammer story to the whole class and wrote down a note to make a video as soon as the class was over haha.
@@PianistAcademy1 lol -- well - for the "finger-switching purists" the single note serves their textbook doctrine well enough; for the double-notes they must "go fish" - ;-)
@@aBachwardsfellow based on the teacher’s face when I was telling my story, it wasn’t the first time this student had been told to try something different 😂
@@PianistAcademy1 I'm very much appreciating the "scope-expanding" aspect of your channel! It's refreshing, educating, liberating, and empowering to hear the pro's and con's of various "entrenched" concepts -- Hanon, etc. I've been a proponent of a "90-degree" curved fingers for most of my life -- it never occurred to me that that was, indeed, adding tension until I payed attention to what was happening. I've since modified my teaching approach -- I'm still using curved fingers in the initial build (2-4 months -- strength and independence exercises where some motions are exaggerated), but am migrating away/out of it in the finishing stages "final form" per your video rather than remaining in the over-curved form -- thanks! :-)
In my opinion, it really just depends what sound or quality you wish for your repeated notes to have. Notably, the great Hungarian pianist Nyiregyhazi would in his youth take the repeated notes in Liszt's Totentanz all with his index finger, which would lead to a very dry and brittle quality. I myself use a single finger for the repeated notes in the finale of Haydn's 53rd piano sonata in order to add a slightly rambunctious character, but in Scarlatti's famous D minor sonata K. 141 I would alternate certain passages between alternating fingers and single fingering based upon moods and repetitions of the phrase. P.s. When I learned Fur Elise many years ago, I played the chords in the left hand while repeating with my pinky and keeping the 3-2-1 pattern in my upper voice... Yes, I had big hands for a child! But today, if I were to play it again I should use the index or middle finger the whole way through for a more tenebrous effect.
It's my pleasure, Dave! Thanks for watching and I hope you'll check out (and/or refer some of your students to) other helpful videos here on the channel :-)
When I learned Fur Elise many years ago, I was taught the typical 3-2-1 fingering, changing to same finger repetitions for the chords. I struggled right at the end of the passage, where the A changes to a Bb, because me fingers were "falling off" the smaller black key. After several weeks of frustration, my teacher had me switch to a 2-3 fingering on the Bb, then eventually just my 2nd finger. I noticed that there was a change in the quality of sound from the more forceful articulation of the alternate fingering to a softer, almost legato quality on the Bb. It actually complimented the changing harmonies in the right hand.
I couldn't agree more that the focus on alternating fingers for a repeated note can be a significant and often unhelpful distraction. Learning to pick your personal mark with such things is something we all need to progress to as we mature in our performances. An additional reason for using alternating fingers on the same note is voicing. One of the most commonly requested pieces in my repertoire for programmes or encores at the end of our performances is Asturias (Leylanda). Although perhaps made most famous by guitar, as you know Albeniz originally wrote Asturias for piano. It's theoretically possible to play Asturias at full tempo and voice it correctly using a single finger for the 'D', but it is a thousand times easier to use multiple fingers. Another very helpful and well considered video. Stay safe - A&J
Great to hear from you!! Yes, you are absolutely right with the mention of voicing. How fascinating would it be to find out from a composer themself if they wrote with the intention of a single finger or multiple fingers. I'd expect Albeniz, with the heavy cultural influence of guitar styles, would have intended alternating fingers as that's also the style and tone you hear from a guitarist. But Beethoven... who knows? I'm in the midst of preparing a couple pieces for performance right now and am using the three approaches I mention depending on the situation: The Market at Limoges (from Pictures, but the 4-hand version) I use mostly single fingers on the repetitions as you'd need to in the solo piano version, but occasionally throw in an alternating finger bar to relax the hand if I need it. I'm also playing a set of 4 Songs of Walt Whitman, music composed by Kurt Weill. The 3rd movement has around 32 bars of chords in triplets, played around 170=Q, which is very much around the same tempo as Erlkonig... the writing alone means I have to play same fingers because it's chords. I'm also playing my arrangement of the James Bond theme, which, ironically was originally written for guitar and thus I'm playing the repeated notes with all alternating fingers!
The last movement of Schubert's E-Flat Trio D. 929 is also a good example of where you will easily get tense if you don't change fingers. (Schubert, in fact, recommends 4321 for these passages.) But as a general rule, I do not change fingers on repeated notes.
Thanks for this balanced viewpoint. I can play faster repeated notes with alternating fingers but I rarely need to resort to it (btw, I don't play anything as fast as those clips). I think it's important to be able to adapt. For example, I have a sore middle-right finger right now, so to give it a rest, I started doing repeated notes with my 4th finger. It works just fine. Cheers.
Thank you for the very interesting topic! Repetitions with the same fingers are more of a wrist pattern than finger action. A beautiful example is the beginning of Scarbo: one can play the repetitions with the right hand, with the same finger, taking advantage of the double escapement. The effect of playing “very loudly” on the bottom half of the key, creates a wonderful ”from far away” effect. Ever thought of trills as two repeated fingers which just happen to be shifted in time? I found it very useful while practicing trills. One can shift the attention from one “repeated” finger to the other, to check that each finger is equally loud.
Spot on, Vito! Your idea about trills is intriguing. I've mostly thought about rotation through trills, but not about the motion of repetition. I'll have to try this out!
I strongly disagree with the recommendation. What you say works for slow repeated notes but not for fast ones , there is no way you can play k141 Scarlatti with 1 finger as an allegro (tempo quarter=120-168) the reason is simply physical and similar to scales technique. In the same way in fast scales the thumb goes under as soon 2nd finger is played to be in position , the same applies to repeated notes . On a grand piano , for fast repeated notes , you don’t have to wait until the key is back to position but instead use the double escapement advantage , so if u use either the 321 ( or 4321) technique, as soon as the 3rd finger hit the key bottom , the 3rd finger is already in position to hit the key when is back to the escapement point which is more or less 2/3 key in the bottom . This is the only to play fast repeated notes . I recommend watching the famous Martha algerich playing k141 as an encore as the camera zoom on the fingers and you clearly see what I explained above. At slow tempo , same finger works of course
I actually cite that recording of that Scarlatti Sonata as one of a very few places in the rep where exchanging fingers is necessary. I also talk about how repeated octave and chord technique is very similar to the technique needed to play repetitions with a single finger. Both techniques can utilize the double escapement of a grand piano, in fantastic regulation. Without both techniques at your disposal, exchanging and single fingers, the pianist loses a LOT of options in interpretation. Just try Schuberts or Liszt’s Erlkonig. It’s not possible the exchange fingers and the tempo is blazingly fast. One finger and exchanging fingers produces different tonal outputs, depending on the choice of fingers, so we should strive to be able to play almost every example in rep using either technique. Only then can we truly choose the “best” option for not just our hand but also the musicality of the passage. The point of the whole video is that, except in cases of developing technique and playing without excess tension, for 99.9% of passages in rep, we can and should be able to play with either approach. The outliers do exist, of course. But it’s not the “black and white” concept that nearly all piano teachers teach. A repeated section shouldn’t default to exchanging or single fingers… it should be thought through, considered in context, and after experimenting with both approaches, chose the one that’s best for the passage, your intention, and your facility at the instrument.
I came in here with my fists raised cause them's fightin' words. But then I watched the video and I was like, oh, this is actually informative and useful and answers some of my outstanding questions... about when it's better and when it's not. Very helpful video. Knowing what Chopin said sure will make me feel mess guilty now for passages when not changing the finger is easier and doesn't create tension.
Thanks for keeping an open mind and also taking the time to write! I'm glad you found the video helpful, even though the title caused some small rage haha. There have been some who come here only to comment about the title after not watching even the first minute of the video!
I was so ready to disagree with you (based on the title alone), but then I decided to stick around til the end of the video haha. I've had this conversation with my students numerous times and in every situation we experiment with SEVERAL fingering options until we find the best solution for that particular passage.
Yup, there are pros and cons to both! And that's really the point, changing fingers alone (which is how most beginner and intermediate students are taught) isn't necessarily the best path in every individual passage.
Havent followed any sort of fingering from my grade 1 to LTCL exam My fingerings are all about being comfortable and playing the song well instead of showing off unnecessary skills.
1) Every rule was coined for a reason, but no reason fits all situations. 2) Learn all the rules - all of them - but then learn how to decide what rule to use, or whether to use a rule at all. 3) The only rule you never break: it should sound as you want it to sound. Do whatever it takes to make it sound as you wish while keeping your hands relaxed so you can get through the whole frigging piece. 4) Knowing all the rules gives you options. Rule doesn’t mean “law.” There are no laws in music. Rules are made to help you. When they aren’t helping, you disregard them. The more you know, the more options you have, or the more options you can choose to ignore or reject. I freely alternate fingers when it helps me. I freely repeat the same finger when THAT helps me. Same for trills. You can use 3 or 4 fingers for a trill. Often in Bach I use something like [right hand] 41324132 plus whatever notes get me into and out of the trill. I’ve noticed Rubinstein and others using 4 fingered trills. (2 notes, alternating fingers) The only real rule is to use whatever serves you best to get the sound you wish to create.
When possible, absolutely. Gershwin's Rhapsody in Blue near the end is a perfect example. So are a some bars of Ravel's Toccata, which can combine actually all three methods of repetition: two hands on one pitch, alternating fingers on one pitch, AND single fingers on one pitch in short bursts.
Well this proves a point in general that there's more than 1 way leading to Rome. There's more than one perfectly valid approach to playing piano and even something un-ergonomical can occasionally make more sense from a musical perspective. I'll give you an example from Brahms' opus 117 Intermezzo no.1, bar 51, left hand: playing an inner melodic line with the thumb and where one could pass the index finger over the thumb to play the next note but actually re-placing the thumb a few keys up, although less ergonomical, will produce a keyboard stroke that more evenly matches the previous one. Due to the slow tempo one can actually shift the thumb around even while playing that part of the phrase legato. Or how about the passage in Mazeppa where a horse trying to resist the directions from its rider is being depicted: Liszt himself gave fingerings there which are un-ergonomical but that's the whole point: it renders it impossible to play that passage with any sort of legato and that's exactly what one wants to avoid if trying to make it work musically.
Changing fingers is only really necessary for some pieces written in the post-Erard action era - the new escapement mechanism allowed hitherto impossibly rapid note repetition and the novelty was quickly exploited. There's no need for the technique on music written prior to this invention or even music written after it that doesn't require the rapidity. In some instances, repeated notes are intended to give an effect originally described in onomatopoeiac German as "bebung" and this is best achieved by using the same finger. The passage from Fur Elise is one such candidate. Probably the most famous piece which can't be played to the desired tempo without changing fingers (and even added thumb) is the Friska from Lizst's 2nd Hungarian Rhapsody. Another consideration is that only decent grand pianos can reliably keep up with really rapid repetition. This is because the hammers strike upwards and fall back naturally under their own weight, unlike on uprights.
Yes, this is all true. I was just reading some more additional thoughts of Chopin's on repetition this morning and he said "always use the same finger unless tempo or articulation dictate otherwise." His piano didn't repeat quite as well as ours today, but it's a very enlightened statement from one of the men who most changed the approach to piano technique in all of history.
Wow, what an interesting video! I never mastered the alternate fingering but I totally understand the concept of letting go the built up tension in the fingers. Thanks for this video (but please stop calling him Show-pon).
Sometimes repeated fingerings get a certain articulation like how if you use 3 5 for a left hand octactve jump it makes you articulate the 3 as stacatto
Yep. There's nothing like good old common sense and a "reversion" to first principles, namely "what works/feels/sounds best, and why?" Every situation stands on its own. This isn't limited to music. Alas, it's so easy (and calorically efficient) to rely on words of authority one learned in youth, then never question it again.
It was an interesting thought that came to mind when I realized that a very fast trill is actally two alternating repeated notes played in rapid succession. Consider (experiment with) how those are managed differently in a trill as opposed to playing each of the notes singly -- i.e. at "half-trill speed" ... It seems that I can play a fast trill "survivably" relaxed, but cannot play the single notes at half-speed without tension building ...
Interesting! Some of the relaxed wrist and arm that plays into fast repetitions is also a part of trills, but trills also include some form of rotation from note to note. My guess is that too much reliance on rotation combined with some form of "pulling" the fingers up during fast trills is what makes them difficult to sustain for long periods for most people. I tested myself and can play my full speed trills as well as just half of the trill (at the same tempo, but just the upper or lower note and rhythm) equally easily, but they employ different approaches to technique.
I’m not exactly sure what you mean… do you mean playing the same passages but on multiple instruments? Which of course we have to do all the time as pianists. I find myself usually using the same overall technique I’ve practiced at home, but maybe with some slight variations… ie, how far out of the key do I need to be to trigger a solid repetition on instrument a vs b; if the action is very heavy, can I maintain a good relaxed technique but exaggerate the motions I’ve practiced at home to allow for more downforce… etc
@@PianistAcademy1 I expect it was a joke, an attempt at topping the absurdity of that "grabbing a new hammer for every swing at the nail" analogy. Für Elise calls for 30 repeated A notes? Better swap between two separate pianos for each new A! Or better yet, line up 30 pianos and hit the A on a new piano every single time, all while keeping the melody and tempo going! 😅
@@GMJ7 That's what I meant, indeed! Whenever I play the Scarlatti Sonata in D minor K 141, I use six pianos. I'd like to play Für Elise but I can't afford to buy 24 more pianos!
@@pokerandphilosophy8328 LOL. Sorry about not getting it 🤣 My wife is always being sacrastic and... 5 years later I still only pick up on it once in a while lol.
If we can make 21, 321, and 4321 all equal in "difficulty" or "ease" for our technique, then we can have the most options when we chose how to tackle a specific passage. Any finger combination should be able to be played in any rhythmic denomination as well.
I made some pedantic (maybe slightly pretentious) quibbles about pronunciation of "Chopin"; but on a more important substantive point - and I sincerely apologize if, especially based on my "Chopin" comment, I seem excessively critical - isn't the video title more than a bit misleading? It's directly *contradicted* in the video itself. "Stop" implies "never do this"; it doesn't mean "do this sometimes but not always" which the video indicates. I don't think it's fair to rely on the video to correct the title's misleading statement. It's a basic reality of how RU-vid works that many people will never see beyond the title; and to assume a stance of "well, if they don't bother to watch my video, then that's their problem, let them get the wrong idea" is possibly kind of nasty.
I think it could be argued either way. My initial title for this video was "Repeated Notes and the Hammer" ... which got no clicks so people never saw it. So I retitled it to "2 Ways to Play Repetitions" ... which also got no clicks. At my wife's request (after balking from me because *I thought* this title was misleading) I changed it to the current title and now people are seeing it! Which is great. We also changed the thumbnail and she worked on that with me as well to make it more "clickable." Yes, it all has to do with how someone responds to the title if they click or don't. It's been proven by many who teach content creators that titles that teeter on the edge of being inflammatory or are extremely strong statements will get clicked on more often. If the click never happens, then there was no point in the 20 hours it took me to create the video. I definitely don't want that outcome. I got behind my wife's suggestion because I have personally seen a huge number of piano teachers who teach that repeated notes should ONLY be played with alternating fingers. So I think of this as a response video, basically aimed at those teachers and their students who have only seen one side of the equation.
Hania Rani’s Hawaii Oslo the D4 is repeated well over 200 times in just the first page. Tried alternating fingers nope. Not gonna happen. Rani uses one finger too.
Lang Lang definitely seems to inspire a Love-Hate relationship with all pianists haha. Sometimes I really love his interpretations and stage presence, and sometimes I really don't!
@@RUT812 Yes... I don't think I'd ever suggest to a student to emulate his gestures and posture... nor did any of my own professors ever suggest that to me as a student (in fact it was usually quite the opposite and sometimes bordering on making fun of his movements). But that said, after finishing my degrees, I've had very frank conversations with those same profs about Lang Lang and we all seem to agree that while we would never teach his physical movements, he sure has the key to "entertaining" and captivating an audience... something that is missing from 99% of the other A-list concert pianists. Those movements aside, he is far from the only one who chooses one finger for the Fur Elise C section. He happens to have, arguably, the most success of any living concert pianist, hence my reason to show him in this video 🙂
Cuando los cambios de dedos se requieran en mucha velocidad es util cambiar de dedo pero tambien depende de tu mano y de la pieza y de lo que te sea mas facil, ahora cuando cambiar de dedo entorpiece una pieza y son mov lentos ahi las ediciones fallan, son malas ediciones o las puso alguien que siguio una regla rigurosa sin revisar bien cada detalle, en definitiva estudiar tecnica es mucho mas que todo eso a medida que el pianista se vuelve mas profesional ira adoptando mejores tecnicas de estudio, tambien se requiere de un buen maestro
Yup, even for those who never want to change fingers, there are places in rep where it's still absolutely necessary... unless you just don't play that rep 😂
But Gieseking was a rare pianist and could do things that are far beyond the reach of most of us, even with a lot of practice. I think the point of this video is that we need to do what works for *us*. Don't use a fingering just because it's in the score and don't be surprised if something that someone like Gieseking can do doesn't work for you.
Great video. The emphasis on methodological flexibility is super helpful. I grew up with Henle editions from the 50s and 60s, and their dogmatic "must change fingers for any repeat notes" approach always bugged me, and I never followed it. Also, as you show with the Elise example, quite often it doesn't work: Waldstein opening, Erlkönig, Scherzo of Chopin 2nd Sonata, Symphonic Etude #2, etc. Since I first encountered (sometime in the 70s) Rubinstein's recording of the Appassionata, I marveled at the power and drive of the repeated left-hand Cs at the transition from development to recap in the 1st movement. How does he do it? Well, this video (ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-ml5YmyYJp_8.html) at 7:27 solves the mystery: He plays them all with the 3rd finger! This confirms my experience that using one finger for repeat notes often sounds better. You just get more meat to the sound. I'm curious - what fingering do you use for that spot?
Thanks! When I first learned Appassionata as a teenager, I played those particular notes with alternating fingers… BUT… at the time I also had a big issue with letting tension go. Within a few years, I was playing those notes with a single finger… which now I actually find much easier and also more musical!
@@astanakazakhstan3220 isn’t the second syllable of “Chopin” pronounced like the French word for bread, “pain”, as opposed to like “pon” in “coupon”? I never heard “Chopin” pronounced as rhyming with “coupon”
@@PianistAcademy1 “Chopin” is usually pronounced like the English word “an” (as in “an apple”); it’s seems like you were pronouncing that part of his name like “on” as in “on the table.”
Similar dilemma occurs on percussion instruments too. For example of the beginning of Beethoven's Violin Concerto: repeated notes. Most professional timpani players perform this using one mallet. The reason: sticks could have imperfections and alterneting hands could add unwanted accents. The purpose is to play similar constant notes using the same mallet and the same hand. In your example with Für Elise is great: a constant pulsation is better provided by the same finger the adding more uncertain components. Different fingers requires constant calculations to keep the intengrity of the ostinato. Thanks for video!
I’ve pronounced Chopin’s name in at least 3 different ways on the channel in different videos, all of which are accepted in different parts of the world… and… without fail… I’ve been criticized in each video for my pronunciation lol. I just abhor the American pronunciation of Chopin because it’s soooo far away from what it should sound like in French, but it appears that’s the one that gets least ripped on 🤷🏻♂️
Nice video, only change the fingers in the speed change and many notes, like scarlatti, because is more easy to play that, but only dependes the technic this is all technique, this video is good but the technique is too big for this video
It's not click bait if you've never thought of not changing fingers before, which happens to be a huge percent of both students and teachers I've met personally. That's really who I made this video for. And if you do already know, then think before just accepting whatever the editor wrote in your edition, same finger OR alternating fingers. From that perspective it's not click bait at all.
All i have to say is Prokofiev sonata no. 3. !!!! You get no choice. And i would much prefer to use the fast multiple finger method. Instead you are forced to use your thumb on extremely fast repeated notes.
This makes me laugh... I'm sure using the same finger for piano is valid... but I am a classical guitarist! If I tried using the same finger, it would spell disaster! Now... as I said, if I were a pianist, I think using one finger would make perfect sense... but this same principle would be laughable on my instrument!
