Is Martin Luther WORSE than Kenneth Copeland? (with Guest Chris Rosebrough) 

As a German from Poland (Silesia) who is Eastern Orthodox, I will always agree with Dr. Martin Luther over a wolf in sheep's clothing called Kenneth Copeland.

Chris, Just call Michael Brown. Tell him Martin Luther appeared at the foot of your bed playing Saxophone. 🎷

Chris Rosebrough draws Christ out of the Old Testament like no other. It's spectacular! Very gifted exegeter of the Scriptures, and yes, he's very funny- which is an added bonus!

Rod Rosenbladt’s teaching on law and gospel changed my life 25 years ago. 💥

Chris Rosebrough is my favorite Lutheran. Though I have very heavy disagreements about baptism as a Baptist, I've benefited so much in the past from his ministry. I appreciate how when he's dealing with false teachers he opens the word and literally shows on the screen from the biblical text why the false teaching is wrong and shows proper exegesis to explain what the text actually says. I listened to one of his Easter sermons a few years ago where he compared the gospel to a hearty lasagna which has many tasty layers meant to be enjoyed while walking through a passage in Revelation. I'll always remember that.

Neat! I'm sitting down in front of the TV with my Bingo card, Fresca, and some Choice Meats. Let's Go!!

The two Christian channels I laugh the most from and learn from as well! Fighting for the Faith has been crucial for me for understanding how and where Christ is in the OT and to throw it out (Andy Stanley) is disastrous to understanding the NT. Also the works we are given by God include our jobs as husbands, wives, children, employees etc. Teaching that frees you to trust in Christ alone. Blessings Keith 🙏

Brother Keith. That intro is SO GOOD! Seriously, it brings me back to the early 90's sitcoms that just put a smile on your face. Hans is Seriously a musical comedian genius.

First he gets Hans Fiene out of the church basement, and now he gets Rosebrough on. Let's turn this Calvinist into a Lutheran already. 😃 Friendly jab of course (no seriously, convert 😉)

Fighting for the Faith in da House !

The topic about the recent panel discussion and Martin Luther begins at 21:53, if anyone isn’t interested in the testimony and background knowledge of the guest.

What a joy it was to watch this. Like you, Keith, I have listened to Fighting For the Faith for many years. I consider Chris to be one of the best Bible teachers living. His program held my hand as I was exiting Pentecostalism while family, entrenched in it, claimed I was Crazy, or demon possessed, or profligate. I had even once attended a Kenneth Copeland meeting.

As a Lutheran I thank you for having Chris on.

Great conversation! Love Chris Rosebrough! God bless you both 🙏

I agree Micheal Brown was deflecting from the issue at hand and shame on him.

I'm grateful for these brothers!!!

You crack me up, love the intro. You have a great sense of humor... for a Calvinist. 😉 - confessional Lutheran

Got to love this theme song!

Brown used redirection to deflect attention from criticism of Copeland. "Copeland is a heretic." "Look over there! Look at Luther!!!!" We can look at both, and critique each accordingly. In saying, "Copeland isn't so bad compared to Luther," Brown makes Luther the standard. The Gospel is the standard.

Prayer is powerful God moves according to his will All praise and Glory to Christ

Intro................is the best ever!

Yupeeeee❤thank you for all your lovely vids...a blessing...thank you😊

The jingle made my day!

Chris Rosebrough - discerner of “the good guys” from “the bad guys”? He IS one of the bad guys!! How could you go involving him on your show-you’re so much better than that! He is slow to listen, quick to speak, proud of heart and swift to slander…

Thanks again Pastor Keith. Watching your videos has helped me to understand that other denominations have a lot in common with ours. So, they're not as scary anymore. Ha!

The other thing was neither SS or MB were not bothered by the fact that Todd White said it does not that his "victims" did not believe or the fact that there was no gospel

Just found your channel, the intro took me OUT 😂. And stumbling onto both you and one of my favorites, Chris Roseborough. 😊 Do I need a bingo card??

My favorite line in your intro song is, "He's not like most Calvinists, he's nice." I don't like you because you are nice, I like you because you are fair. I think you bring out the right balance in the folks you interview. I appreciate what both you and Chris are doing, while not being the biggest fan of either Chris or Calvinism. I really believe Christians who don't acknowledge or understand the legitimate work of the Holy Spirit in the church are missing the greatest strength and effectiveness of the New Covenant. The greatest Grace given to the church to bring about God's purpose is the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, which the Scriptures clearly teaches (especially in Acts 2) that it is for all generations, as many as the Lord shall call. The Promise of the Father, which Jesus commanded His disciples to wait for, until they were endued with Power from on high, which will never cease to be available to the church. That is why Satan continually tries to convince the church the God has stopped giving bullets to the weapons we are given to battle the schemes of the enemy. If he can't convince us that the Power of the Holy Spirit isn't available today, he tries to counterfeit the Holy Spirit activity and twist the practices of the church into ridiculous nonsense that become easy targets for those who easily dismiss it as having ceased. The church was given this Grace to kick in the gates or strongholds of hell, not for the church to just dig in and hope the devil won't bother us too much. Without the Power promised to the church the best we can do is barely hang on for dear life to the bitter end. The Power of the church to overcome is made possible by the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, given to us by God.

Brown & Storms : I haven’t watched any of Copeland and Hinn therefore they are brothers….. Magical answer absolving themselves from responsibility. I was only following orders: German soldiers. Did that absolve them? Nope. That was a sad thing to watch. I started and wanted to have more respect for those two men but they kept fighting against me.😔

I have calvinist derangement syndrome but i listening to you anyway,you have a great since of humor 😂.

I'm excited to see this video

Great show! I have been a fan of fighting for the faith for years. God bless both your ministries.

Charismatic blend here. I come to Calvinist teachers because my decades in Word of Faith left me with only wisps of theology and a great fog of misinterpretation. Just as once you've known Christ, no one can argue Him away, neither can I ever deny the gift of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. It's as real as my heartbeat. I pray in tongues every day and have seen God work amazing miracles. I still believe, through careful study, some of the founding principles. However, the distortions that have come from the movement are, to quote my Tennessee mother, ' a shame and a disgrace". How many of the leaders are deceived or blatant liars? I don't know.

Michael Brown’s attitude toward Luther and his sins is Pelagian. From what I can tell he believes Luther negated his salvation because the sins of his late writings. There is no salvation by grace alone, only salvation by works after initial acceptance of gospel. Besides Luther has been judged 450 years ago by a greater judge than Brown. His bringing up Luther’s sin is simply a diversion from using his leadership in Charismatic community to stand against men and woman living today who are doing harm to the church with false doctrine and carnival sideshow gimmicks.

I thought at the begginning of the video you are the nicest Calvinist I ever listened to but I thought well there is another man but can't remember his name 🤔❤️‍🔥

This was a great episode, I learned some good stuff. Thank you Keith!

Is that Hans Fiene doing the theme song?

“If you don’t like the video, press the thumbs down button… twice” - that’s where I almost fell 😂

First time listener here. I appreciate you interrupting the show to make sure you explain the gospel. May I encourage you to include a mention of the resurrection when giving your listeners the gospel. The resurrection was the shocking key point of the gospel as presented throughout the book of Acts by the Apostles, and without the resurrection we end the gospel with a dead Savior. May this be received as an encouragement and not as a rebuke. Thank you for your gospel work on this channel.

I love Chris R.

Fantastic podcast ... i hope another one with your guest will take place soon !

Charismatics have a built in mechanism that precludes any serious criticism of other charismatics.

I think it is VERY inappropriate to compare 2 people WITHOUT factoring in the historical context in which they grew up and then operated in. Martin Luther helped end a stranglehold of darkness upon the world despite it being almost his death to do so. How does the soul of a Christian not thrill to that? That is beyond my comprehension.

"God hath saved us by his mercy, the symbol and pledge of which he gave in baptism, by admitting us into his Church, and ingrafting us into the body of his Son." Calvin’s Commentary on Titus 3.

Best podcast opening of all time

I enjoy Pastor Roseborough but have no use for Brown. I don't trust him.

Good discussion and clarification on this issue Thank you

Was that Hans Fiene singing at the start?

Around 46:00, Chris opines that Dr. Michael Brown can't bring himself to call anyone a false teacher/heretic because he somehow thinks that that would be smug or arrogant. I think it goes deeper than that, and is part and parcel of the charismatic framework. Having embraced the concept that they should see signs and wonders as a normative experience in the Christian life, they had to create an apologetic for all of the failures, particularly failed prophecy. They created a framework in which a person can only be called a false teacher or a false prophet if it can be proven that the person is INTENTIONALLY attempting to lead people away from Christ. So they never have to call out/correct error, test the spirits, test prophecy . . . and no one in their circles is going to do it to them, either.

I'm always interested in how Lutherans and Luther have to take the blame for antisemitism but the Russian Orthodox get a complete pass for the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

This was a great conversation!

Just because it's mentioned and keeps being completely misstated: Separation of Church and State is NOT in the Constitution nor is it in any way established in our Founding Documents.

19:57 Prior to him, explaining his beliefs about baptism I’ve believed that the Lutherans had Mr. Mark. I don’t agree entirely on the Theological statements he has for me, but he is slowly winning me over with his sound biblical argument. I am a southern Baptist and iron free. We have missed the mark on what it is and he very well may be right.

New sub, thanks so much for this conversation!

Michael Brown had to dig up a man who has been dead for 500 years to try to deflect from those who they support. I don’t know why someone hasn’t said that? I would have said you are comparing someone who is dead, from a different time and a different place who cannot defend themselves to a person from today living in your culture and in your time. That is clearly using unequal weights, it’s not the same.

My question is this: as Calvinists who believe that the elect stand firm and will be saved regardless...how do you level that with the accusation that false teachers are leading people to hell. If certain individuals are predestined towards heaven or hell, do false teachers have a special place to be able to change that? I agree with the assessment against the named false teachers...just trying to figure out how you justify the talk of leading people to hell.

RIP Rod Rosenbladt.

I need a new reformed channel to watch because everybody i know is slow right now so this will be my first full video, let's see what's up

For God formed us to be imperishable; the image of his own nature he made us. But by the envy of the devil, death entered the world, and they who are allied with him experience it. Wisdom 2: 23-24

I know this is painting with a wide brush, but sometimes a wide brush is appropriate. Luther sinned against men, Osteen and Copeland sin directly against God. In Brown’s view of sin, and repentance, we are all without hope.

One of the most dangerous doctrine and Theology is Calvinism. Because in Calvinism before you have Faith you're already saved even before the foundation of the world--that is if you are CHOSEN or ELECT by God. In Calvinism it is God who is choosing whom he would like to choose to be saved. And the "WHOEVER" of John 3:16 is not for all but only for the ELECT or CHOSEN. In Calvinism Jesus did not die for the whole world or for ALL people but only for the Elect. This doctrine is opposing 1John 2:2; 2Cor.5:15; 1Tim.2:4. That is very unbiblical and heretic gospel or just what apostle Paul said a different gospel. Calvinist/Reformed could see the errors of the Word of Faith Movement but couldn't see the dangeous different gospel of Calvinism.

The fact that such a question has to be asked is asinine

I believe Benni Hinn, Kenneth Copland and others should be exposed but Michael Brown has a very good point.

How do you get washing = baptism? The only other place where scriptures uses the word is Ephesians 5 the ‘washing of the word’

One of the best preachers we have today PASTOR CHRIS R

Fantastic episode to the podcast! I’ve been looking forward to Pastor Rosebrough going into more detail his views on Luther. Now we need to see Pastor Foskey on #prophecybingo with @Fighting4theFaith 😂😂

I am really surprised that Peters or Osman didn't bring up the Jim Jones connection to the Charismatic movement. I am surprised that they didn't bring up the fact that Luther made a lot of his statements about Jews much later in life after he was granted sanctuary under Frederick the Wise. His early teachings were on target though.

I’m a Jewish convert to Lutheranism and I absolutely agree with Chris. Michael Brown is wrong on so many levels.

Was the original discussion about Luther in any way, or was Luther literally brought up to obfuscate the discussion when Copeland was being discussed?

Remember what the original conversation was about. It was not about historical figures and their sins. If they have two made it 500 years ago the conversation was about people who were alive today who were blaspheming the name of God. Michael Brown doesn’t want to talk about the people who are blaspheming today he wants to talk about people who have been dead for 500 years.

I’m just here for the intro!

Dr Michael brown is very quick to condem Luther to hell... while using it as a get out clouse for his buddies 😢

Even if Luther's statements, which are bad, have a context, it must be understood that those writings are not any part of what "Lutherans" believe or part of the Lutheran confessions. Neither are his Table Talks or Bondage of the Will. His writing were numerous and vast. Lutherans subscribe to the Book of Concord - the confessions of the Lutheran Church in them: The Augsburg Confession, the Apology to it, the Formula of Concord, The Large and Small Catechism, The Smalcald Articles, The 3 Ecumenical Creeds, Treatise on the Power and Primacy of the Pope etc. These are the things that are taught, believed and confessed. None of these confessions utter hatred against the Jews or cast any bad light on them. Teaching that Jesus is the Messiah does raise their ire, just as it did when Christ, being a Jew, walked, talked and preached against them and their rejection of him, the Messiah. This is all academic. If Michael Brown is trying to tear down a strawman, fine. Luther is not our God or Savior. If he is trying to laminate Luther's views of the Jews or his specific statements about the Jews onto Lutherans or Lutheran Pastors, he is a reprehensible mess. Most of the Lutheran Confessions were not written by Luther, but by Philip Melacton, Jacob Andrea, David Chytraeus, Martin Chemnitz. Much of it after Luther's death. Certainly codified well after he died.

Legitimate question I would want to ask Brown and Storms: If you were around in 1835, when nobody knew about plural marriage, would you guys by your current standards be required to defend Joseph Smith? What did JS teach that Copeland now doesn't?

How in the world could anyone compare to, or be in a category w Copeland?

Brown brought out the Luther card to redirect the topic.

I thought that Michael Brown and Michael Heiser would acknowledge that modern rabbinical Judaism started from the Pharisees and that it was different than biblical Judaism, which allowed for the two powers understanding of YHVH. But maybe Lutherans make an even further distinction? We know that rabbinical Judaism of today is outright antagonistic towards Christ, and has become a reactionary religion. But I thought Michael Brown would admit that.

Hey. I can’t get the discount code to work at 1689 cigars. Any insight on this Keith?

On healing, there's more common ground between cessationists and continualists than meets the eye. Prosperity nuts aside, both believe in divine healing and both reject divine healers. Charismatics however believe that we may be a vessel of God's healing, but not on demand. Non charismatics believe that we pray and God may answer in accordance with our prayers. More semantics than anything else, but I would say charismatics are more confident in the healing taking place than non charismatics.

Yeah, I see what you're saying about Hitler's sins resulting in physical death, but osteens resulting in eternal death. But it's not good to even put that comparison out there. Also, Hitler deceived many in addition to murder. So it's a bad comparison

Storms must be so embarrassed regarding his friendship with Mike Bickle!!

This was great. At this point Dr. MB is a stumbling block in my opinion. I am always left thinking does he love Christ at all? Because he defends man so much and only seems to get bothered when a friend is questioned or his personal lineage. At what point do you have to say if it offends Christ or His little ones I condemn it no matter what?

Interesting Luthersplaining by rosebro.

This Luther kick has been Brown's worst stuff. I've always been one of the Reformed defenders of Brown, but he is absurdly off here. The Nazi's didn't need Luther to perpetrate the Holocaust, and it would have happened whether Luther ever mentioned Jews or not. Luther was not a significant influence on the Holocaust. It is true, the Nazi's used the writings and works of various past Germans against the Jews, but most of their vitriol centered around then contemporary "wrongs" they felt the Jews had done to Germany, like profiteering and treachery during and after the first World War. It's ludicrous to present Luther as some contributing factor in the Holocaust.

What an intro!!!! But hey man, Calvinist’s are nice

The Pharisees were actually closest to Jesus, which is why he puts them on full blast for their mistakes and excesses.

Chris, they did make distinctions. It’s called a statement on Christian nationalism. 35:09 And I’m not sure when you say the leaders of the Christian nationalism movement who are you talking about? I don’t know of any leaders per se.

I've commented on pro charismatic channels that Copeland and hinn need to be called out. The excuses have to stop. Brown is in danger of losing his credibility by dancing around the issue. Sad.

I was raised in a nazarene church and my dad was also pointed to a Lutheran university for schooling. My parents are still members of the nazarene denomination and the whole denomination has just continued down the seeker sensitive downhill slide over the decades. Im sure there are still some more conservative individual churches sprinkled throughout the denomination but as a whole its just been a continual progression towards progressive theology. Concerning salvation and the security of a believer, I was taught growing up (in the nazarene church) that God holds His hands together in the shape of an open cup and that as long as a believer stays in those open hands you are safe and wont slip through His fingers. But you are free to climb out of His hands and He wont stop you. This is extremely bad theology that centers around the free will of man rather than the free will of God to do as He wishes. A true believer is someone who has been born again and their desires have been changed to see Christ and the gospel as beautiful and absolutely necessary and absolutely sufficient. Yes we all stumble but It is God who leads His children to repentance by conviction of the indwelling Spirit. There is a confusion in arminian circles that leads to fear where they confuse justification and sanctity much like the Roman Catholic church like Chris said. Though not as explicitly. Rome has a false gospel requiring works for ongoing justification. Arminians believe in a sufficient gospel of grace alone but it confuses the justified status of a believer being reconciled to God and the fellowship of the believer walking in relationship to God. When we are saved we are brought into relationship with God by the blood of Christ and adopted as sons. When a child sins they are not kicked out of the family but rarher a loving Father corrects His child and leads them to repentance so they can walk in fellowship. The open hands picture insinuates that a person can basically fall out of those hands if you stumble too much. I am a calvinist and believe in the preservation of God's people. But as a person who struggles with severe OCD, and scrupulosity I have a bent inward perspective that focuses too much on my performance and it is a daily battle to trust Christ as I ought too. The devil constantly accuses that If I was really saved then I would be believing more and have greater assurance and trusting more and walking in greater holiness. This takes the focus off of the object of my faith which is Christ and puts the focus on the performance of my faith which is an incorrect focus. Yes we need to examine ourselves but people who struggle with scrupulous inward focus do not need to obsess about that. It's not healthy. This is why I struggle with a lot of hard preaching lately. There is a time and place for hard preaching but the true believer needs to be encouraged. Someone who is born again will be motivated to obedience by the love of God and seeing the finished work of the cross. When I'm overwhelmed by my shame and guilt and I see the cross in all of it's glory and that ALL of my sin past present and future was nailed to the cross and there's no more condemnation even when I just stumbled really really badly or in the midst of great temptation, THAT is what motivates me to holy living and obedience because I want to honor my Lord who suffered on the cross to bear all of the wrath I deserved to save me. Fear of condemnation just leads to frustration and performance based holiness to please God and it leads to deapair and hopelessness. The gospel is what gives us the power to overcome sin. As a person with severe scrupulosity, it's kinda frustrating how in the reformed tradition that I love so much, I feel that because there has been so much watered down theology in the greater evangelical world and reformed circles are very concerned about this and have been trying to battle against it, that it has become very law focused (at least online) and can fall into the same trap that arminians do in over emphasizing the law to the neglect of the gospel with regards to the application of the gospel in the daily lives of believers. They do wonderful in proclamation of the gospel, but in regards to the gospel being the reason for continued sanctification and how we need to be encouraged and comforted by the gospel in our everyday life, that I feel is sadly starting to fall a bit by the wayside in a lot of our reformed circles. Sometimes I'm not sure if it's just me projecting my scrupulosity and inward bent struggles onto what some preachers are saying, I do know that is the case sometimes. But I do seem to see some over focus on the law aspect to the neglect of the gospel when it comes to the personal application in the daily life of the believer.

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive our sins. So hopefully the holy Spirit revealed to Luther that he sinned, and he confessed and repented. I would not absolve him of this, nor any believer for that matter. If Luther was trying to protect Christianity and sinned in doing so, perhaps he should have taken some notes from sovereignists like Calvin who came later. We should rely on God and his providence to give us the necessary words during time of trial. And that He alone will perform the actions to defeat evil.

The Judaism today is the oral Torah of the pharisees that Jesus condemned.

Let's just call it a dead draw.

Anyone who has read Luther knows he was quite problematic…. kind of hard to defend.

If you made a sitcom I would be so happy 🥺 I miss tv but I haven't felt comfortable watching it for a long time. Edit: I want Christian nationalism, not any of that weird stuff. I legit just mean I want Christian leaders because all law is based on morality and atheists shouldn't be in politics. If your belief says morality is subjective it shouldn't be controversial to say shouldn't be deciding the law of the country. And I don't want pagan leaders either. I also want to be stricter on the alphabet mafia, they shouldn't be allowed to adopt or do invitro. I actually have been saying pastors from different denominations should have a sit down and pan out what an acceptable definition of Christian nationalism is. We shouldn't accept the atheist views and we could spread the accepted definition.

when your beards combine = full white beard ( aka James white?)

I think we can be fair. Calvinists, especially new ones, do tend to have some intellectual superiority. I think R.C. Sproul noted that there were no people on the planet more obnoxious and smug than recently converted Calvinists. The refusal to call out people like Copeland is weird, and weirder when they trot out the "you're ok with damning someone to hell?" challenge. I am not damning anyone to hell. Jesus said that all of those outside of Him are condemned already. I am just not convinced that they are in Christ by means of their false teaching, heresy, and ease at which they publicly blaspheme God by speaking words He did not say.

Well, I have heard the Talmud and Kabbalah say blasphemous things about JESUS and the Virgin Mary!

I'm just going to say to Reverend Chris: Whichever Nazarene church trained you that way, they did so in a fashion which is unfaithful to the written and properly expressed doctrine of the Nazarenes.

This whole discussion is counter-productive, and destructive. Why don't we leave it to God to sort out all of what we find to disagree with each other about. There is much to be regretted and repented of on all sides. But while the church bites and devours itself, lost souls continue to march into a Christless eternity. If we don't course correct, we are as guilty as those whom we are accusing of heresy. Jesus is soon to come!

Wesleyans are not a self-righteous legalists lol. Chris was not taught about the John Wesley of the real world.