Is Sub25 a Better Bargain Than Sub37? Its place in the Moog Family - A Users Opinion/Review 

The 25/phatty is an AMAZING first synth! If anyone is curious, I did a 45 minute sound design shoutout between the Sub 37 and it's little brother on my channel!

As I’ve been shopping for an analog mono, I’ve fallen in love with the Subsequent 37. In the interest of allowing myself to consider other options, I watched this video and tried to keep an open mind. One by one, you stripped away much of what I love about the 37; the presets, the sequencer, arpeggiator and aftertouch. Even if I could live with fewer keys, only being able to sequence via the DAW, using the librarian for everything and losing aftertouch are just dealbreakers. Thank you for helping confirm my choice of the 37. Now I just need to win the lottery so I can buy one.

I’d buy Sub25 to put aside of my Sub37CV! Just for the sake of it, because it’s cool. Moog VST helped me lot to understand depth the of it, over years. Would not trade it to anything, incl Moogs, enjoying transposable sequencer and presets. I would love though, if Moog would make a mini-me of the One. Single layer, 49 keys, no seq, or fx, just a straightforward, affordable poly Moog would be nice. I bet they will make it sooner or later. When I saw Sub25 released, it just confirmed my predictions that Moog could do 1/3 of the One eventually. Can’t wait for it anymore though, will be getting Polybrute. For the poly duties and as a main keys, 37 is not enough. Cheers!

Better bargain...next question....would two Sub25's with 4 oscillators, 4 env. 2 LFOs, 2 filters, make a better synth than one Sub37? :) It would be the same price, 2 Sub25 = 1 Sub37.

It definitely is more of a Sub Phatty Rev 2 than it is a mini sub 37. I think a lot of people fail to notice the mixer section on the Subsequent 25 when comparing the two. Just like the Sub Phatty, the Sub 25 mixer goes from 0-12. Whereas the Subsequent 37 goes from 0-10. This means the Sub 25 drives it’s oscillators harder into the filter. In addition to that the multidrive is way more aggressive on the Sub 25. The core sound; it’s oscillators and filter are the same, but the subsequent 25 can get a lot dirtier.

The Subsequent 25 does seem totally under appreciated. Seems perfect for the player who wants a really immediate synth with a few presets for gigging. Just complex enough to be interesting, but simple enough to create sounds on the fly and potentially do a whole show tweaking on the fly. Also makes a lot of sense for those that sequence off their DAW rather than using an onboard sequencer. That being said, the Sub Phatty was the first synth that ever interested me (pianist and guitarist here) so I have a soft spot for this format of Moog

Great review and insights. You didnt mention that all parameters are midi controllable when using with a daw.. so that missing 2nd LFO from the 37 is less of an issue even still. I love the sub 25 and as someone who works in a daw most of the time I couldn’t justify the 37 over the 25.

I own a Sub 25, it's amazing for what it is and great value for money, I love mine and now I have had it a while can edit most sounds from scratch very easily, seriously underrated classic moog..

I got a model d and am getting a keystep 37 this weekend. much better ;p

Unsure if you're are comparing the Subsequent 25 to the Subsequent 37 or the discontinued Sub 37, since you are calling the Subsequent 25 a Sub 25.

I own a SlimPhatty and a Subsequent 37. Different circuitry, different synths. However, I literally come up with a new sound every time I play the 37. It’s an astounding synth, and I own many. OTOH, I am an experienced synthesist. I love the sound of the Phatty and it’s great for bass and more classic, usable synth sounds. But the 37 is in another league - it’s almost like a modular in terms of complexity. And it’s super expressive. So yeah, I’m keeping both.

I'm a bassist that also uses Taurus III pedals to add to our band's sound. Been thinking about a synth for some new sounds to explore. This seems like a great choice.

I'm more curious about the differences between this & the Sub Phatty!

would have been better received if moog released a duophonic update for the sub phatty with the release of the sub 25 , since a beta firmware initially supported it. Also think the lack of ring mod is a huge missed opportunity because of the emphasis on beat frequency manipulation. And of course a larger keybed. Overall though, the sub phatty/25 are one of the best modern synths imo

What he fails to mention is that both the 25 and 37 are actually very complicated in the way that they function. Maybe I’m missing something, but the LFO on those isn’t the best I’ve heard, and the envelope attack and decay aren’t very well defined when in use. I heard rumors that the 25 and 37 were actually incomplete projects that were labeled “good enough”, then rushed to market. The two could use some major improvements for sure. Those were also the first units built right after Bob Moogs death and were done based on deciphering schematics that Bob kept in a filing cabinet

Subby!!!!

Ex-Sub Phatty owner here. Not thrilled to see it come back. I absolutely hated the those silly "under the hood" features that are only accessible through arcane button combinations-which forced me to have the manual on hand- or the software- which left me tethered to the computer. I vastly prefer what-you-see-is-what-you-get synths or clearly-labelled menu diving instead. Having said all that, it had a great Moog sound, of course. Made for an interesting drum machine when controlled by a Digitakt, too.

Really excellent points and very valuable in helping me decide!! I've watched it twice now and I can only say this is of great value. Thank You Sir.

Lol people thought it was a joke when it was first shown? Had they never seen the Sub Phatty before...?

Does it do anything I can't produce with a MIDI controller and a software synth?

Sub 25 = Sub Phatty ?

Does anyone know of a 3rd party that sells patches for the tge sub 25?

I had a sub 25. I transposed a preset and then couldn’t get it back to standard pitch. Then I tried this on a separate preset and had the same problem. The software editor made it worse. I sold it.

I would have loved for Moog to make a 4 voice sub37. The VST control is unbelievably amazing.

Isn't it just a more expensive Sub Phatty with a new paintjob? Edit: Ah, 5:10 there it is. Aaand: this was the cure for your common GAS you spoke about in the last episode? ;)

Aww, poor little Moog, what's not to like? a basic no frills analog synth, this or twice a s much for an old prodigy? I'll take the new one thank you.

I had a Sub Phatty but sold it because of the cheap noisy keybed. The Sub25 has a much better keybed and is for me the reason to buy one. Now it’s complete. This is a winner IMO.

Wish it had an arp 😬

I'm not a "live jam" person, so not having the sequencer and arp is not a dealbreaker. I use my synths either to record live or as tone generators for sampling, so every synth coming with a sequencer and arpeggiator is overkill for me. I'm glad Moog didn't bother with them on the S25.

I get everything you say. As I said in my last post I have a sub phatty and I love it. I have never really used the presets I just use the activate panel. About a year ago I got a sub 37. I thought I would just be able to program it to do what I want straight away. After all it’s just a bigger sub phatty. Well I have had the sub 37 for a year now and finally I am now getting control of it. I love it more and more every day. I am not new to synthesis I got my first analog synth in 1980 a EDP wasp that I only sold to get the sub phatty. The sub 37 and the sub phatty have a very different sound. I love them both they complete each other fantastically. I use them with a minibrut 2 and they are all very different. I just have to sell some more stuff to switch the minibrut for a matrixbrut another year of learning. I’m 61 so what else do I have to do with my time.

Thank you very much for this excellent video. You definitely made your case, and I am now informed :)

In hindsight I shoulda got a sub25 over the 37. Besides the nice keyboard, Found a lot of the extra features on the 37 I don’t use often as I thought I would, and when I do it’s externally sequenced so I could send extra lfos from the external sequencers. Speaking of, The sequencer is super clunky to use, found I was using the mod wheel/foot pedal, more than aftertouch, takes up way too much space for what it is (that whole back section could be nixxed and still be solid, 25 still has that, but being less wide takes the edge off. It really would make a huge difference in small venues, especially since the cables come out of the side instead of the back)

Just recently got one from a friend of a friend for a ridiculous price. I probably would have otherwise went ahead and put the Sub 37 on the ol' Sweetwater card, because I'm definitely more of an actual keyboard player than a sound designer, so more keys and more presets to get me performing quicker is normally where I'd gravitate to. However, just like you, in the few weeks I've had it, I've probably become more interested in actually LEARNING subtractive synthesis than I ever have in the many years I've owned synths. You're exactly right- 16 presets is just enough to store a great sound when you get one, but not enough for me to ever lean on the crutch of presets. This synth will make you a better synthesist.

Have one and a pro 3, great combination... Great Video

Having spent the last few years exclusively noodling with modular and grooveboxes, I got my Sub37 back and have been enjoying it much more this time around. How are you getting on with the Sub25 now that some time has passed?

i like the 25 for its simplicity.

I agree that as a standalone synth it pales against the Sub37 but as a secondary synth and paired with a daw it's a monster! You get hundreds of free presets and many more features unlocked with the VST editor, you can also trigger arp, the sequencer and aftertouch with the other synth (via midi). Plus the Sub25 has a mellower sound, less harsh/fizzy and is much cheaper.

Wow! Such a useful video. Few months back, I was using my friend's Moog Sub 37. After returning it back to him I went through the process of selecting a Moog for myself. I did arrive at Moog Sub 25. I was a bit doubtful initially. This video explains everything beautifully! Cheers! It is indeed Moog Sub Phatty Rev 2!!! This has been a great bass monster so far! With due respect to Sub 37, Sub 25 really suited my workflow better! Cheers!

I have a sub phatty. I have quite a few synths. But the sub phatty is the one. I get it. I’d still love a sub 37 but I would keep my sub phatty only use active panel.

Your journey with the SUB37 was the same as mine. A few years later, totally regret selling it. Sub 25 is a great.

Dope video was actually looking at the grandmother when your video popped up lol the moog 25 looks great too.

Thank you so much for a video about sub25. When I first saw it I knew it should be mine. I loved all about it and was ready to suffer some limitations. I like its compact size and “sub37 style” however it’s not completely a successor but rather subphatty 2, but for me, a newbie in the world of synths the first subphatty design didn’t look attractive. Until now I am so puzzled over that it’s hardly represented in the web, there haven just a few short videos. Now I consider it as an advantage as I believe I would own something unique in a style of my own. I was unlucky as I had to wait for it for too long, I hope it arrives within the next few weeks. I am going to pair it with opz and start from something minimal and the future will show who’s gonna be next ;)

Just ordered one today, so I’m looking at sub 25 videos like crazy, I’ll let you know what I think when I get it but I definitely liked your video

Fair enough, still I am saving up to buy a Sub 37 for now.

I can’t afford to watch these videos 😭

How do I update moog subsequent 25 ?

Bought a sub 25 last year and it’s truly wonderful, it can fit in any song!

I seriously love mine! I wanted a small, paraphonic, and entirely self-contained Moog. Basically something I could play entirely by itself (Well, through a Strymon Night Sky or Blue Sky for reverb) for when I hit the occasional creative brick wall or just need a break with my eurorack setup. The overdrive circuit is excellent for my needs, and it’s overall sound is pretty unique imo. Would I rather have a Sub37? Sure, I certainly would! (I’d also like a Prophet V, a Buchla 200e system, and CS-80 while I’m dreaming) :)

cant wait to have it keep making videos about moog 25 tutorials thank you thumbs up and subscribed.

My first big synth was the Grandmother and omg I wasn't ready so brought it back after 2 days, got a DSI Pro 2 and traded that in for a Blofeld Waldorf and as much as I loved the last 2, I needed to learn synthesis more...I traded in for a Microfreak and a vintage Kork Poly 800 and it was a smart choice (I do miss the Pro2/Blofeld) but ready for a big boy synth...still haven't settled on which one but can relate to all you said!

What you say about the Sub 25 sounds very similar to what was said about the Phattys (esp. the Slim) back in the days. A simpler smaller synth that won't get you lost in the woods, has some nice tricks of its own, retains the high resolution 14 bit presets and knob responsiveness where it matters and, thanks to smaller size, is easier to use as a part of a setup, especially with a computer. At the same time badly marketed, so widely reviled as the cheap version of "the real thing".

It's obviously a nice synth but something ain't right: they could have fit half octave on the left OR made it desktop to make it different from what it really is: a sub-phatty with a firmware update that makes it duophonic and some wood. Sold for double the price. I think people realized. Still I think it can be a good choice for the thing you said, but...

I love mine. As a person who records a bit and collects tube amps, this through a 215 Bassman is killer. Basic true synthesis.

I’ve owned the 37 for a few years and recently sold it and replaced with 25. For my use it just made sense. I found I only used the 37 for low frequency and bass sounds. The 25 is more than enough to handle these sounds. Plus the 25 is much more compact which I also appreciate.

Hi MidSyn, thanks a lot for your work. It helped me a lot already, since I am a "midlife" too and started pretty lately with electronic music after years with drums and violin. So now I use maschine and Arturia but would like to improve the sound of my basses. And I have opportunity to buy a Moog Prodigy from a friend, excellent condition. But now is the dillema and I would like to kindly ask for your opinion. Prodigy or Sub25 in 2021 (not only, but mainly for bass)? The price is moreless the same. I tend to the vintage because of the sound and feel. but since I am the beginner I don't know how limitating it will be according to daw connection. I mean it has no midi out, so only audio/sampling into daw I guess. Thanks a lot for your answer.

Love the video. +1 subscriber. Noticed your MPC X in the background! That's actually why I'm here! I'm an X owner myself and recently I've been leaning more heavily into hardware and trying to step away from the software side of creating music. I've been producing music for 20+ years now and up until purchasing this MPC X 4 years ago, have only relied on software for everything to do with music creation. I love my X so much, that NOW for the first time ever I'm looking into purchasing a synthesizer to pair up with my MPC X. Like you stated in this video, I'm a newb when it comes to synthesis and have always relied on presets when using powerful synths I have VST's for such as Omnisphere 2. However, I'm wanting to finally change all that and jump off this cliff and into the vast sea of synthesis! I know you said that the Sub 37 was overkill during the time you had it with the fact you were a newbie, but do you feel for my needs the Sub 37 would be a great synth to learn on? I know some basics of synthesis of course. I just rely too much on presets though and that's something I plan on finally changing. I'm essentially asking what you would say would be a great synthesizer for pairing up with the MPC X. I produce all sorts of genres of music, but primarily produce hiphop/rap/trap and hard hitting bassy stuff? Terrible explanation I know!

The Sub 37 was my first synth. I'd never sell it. It offers amazingly deep modulation possibilities. I agree that the name was a marketing blunder since it is obviously an enhanced Phatty. I get that they wanted to get rid of the Phatty moniker, but there must have been some other alternative. To me the 25 would be a great synth for someone who wanted it to play live bass synth, where the 37 is more useful for someone interested in sound design.

this Sub25 is a delight. i choose it over the 37 :)

I love mine

If anything, you could add a moogerfooger to get some of those 37 features that aren't present with the 25, can't you? I also have my MXR phase 90 and flanger that I run, which OBVIOUSLY adds to the spundscape... oh, and I have a hardwire delay that I like as well.

I wish you’d make videos which compare Subsequent 25 with Sub Phatty and Sub 37 with Subsequent 37 instead.

You sound exactly like me when I got my Sub37. Lol. I was a relative newbie, I was amazed by the overall beauty of the synth. The knobs,switches, lights etc…it was just perfect. But I couldn’t make a great sounding patch to save my life.

Great video. I totally agree. One thing you didn’t cover is the sound. With the sub25’s multi drive and sub oscillator it RIPS!! Also isn’t there an aftertouch setting in the submenus?

Dude, you are speaking my language!!! I agree with all of your lead-in points. A few months ago I wanted to buy a Moog, but was stuck between getting the 25, Grandma, and the 37. Which one? The 37 just seemed overwhelming in it's features. I'm actually a guy who likes to find a few killer sounds and stick with them while turning the filters. But, I also like to have at least 37 keys, 25 just seems so limited. So, I bought the Grandmother - which sounds soooo unbelievable awesome and is super fun... it is my favorite thing ever!! That said, the fact is has no ability to save what I've created, is a HUGE drawback. I have lived with it though, even though I tend to love my favorite lead sound and don't want to stray. But I have some extra cash now and am looking for another. Was heading towards to a 37, or maybe a Rev4... but after listing to you, the Rev is out, and thinking I should go for the 25 based on the points you made - which sounded like I was talking myself.

Hey! Thank you for sharing your views, I really liked the video! Would you mind to tell about why you regretted trading the sub37 for the prophet08? I’m about to trade my beloved Nord Lead a1 for a prophet rev2. But I whish I could have a sub37 also 😂. Cheers

Hello nice is this love déclaration to the sub 25. One question raised is even if thé keybed has no AT, does Sub25 respond to AT from an Xternal controler ? Thanks

It's not that the 25 is 50% cheaper, it's that the 37 is 50% more expensive :-) Would love to see you compare the 37 with the Grandmother.

Not having enough presets or any is idiotic. Its why we have the prophet 5 which led the way. Moog is great and the Matriach is superb....but this is not the old days. I'd buy a Subsequent 37. The 25 is less.

Guitarist lookin g at Moog - bought the Werkstatt01 - very nice video!!! looking at rock - funk - blues

I understand about getting overwhelmed with presets but I also think presets are a great way to learn how a sounds is being made, and yes, you have to take pictures or keep a notebook. The presets on the Sub37 can get complicated because for many you have to deep dive into the editor and figure out where some of the modulations are being routed but a fun thing to do for me is to take some of the simpler presets and try to create the same sound in Ableton or on another synth. Again, good sound design exercise.

Yeah I thought it was a joke when announced too but this video was very helpful and I`ve been thinking of a sub37 for a while but it`s a bit big for where I want to put it. Usually I hate 25 keys as you can`y really play 2 triads on that but this is a bass machine, still makes playing Octaving basslines a bit awkward but the footprint is small enough to stick where my Minitaur is and so I might get one now and put it there if I can get it for a good price. I will weight it up against the Minitaur and perhaps keep the Minitaur and stick it somewhere else as it is really small, cool

Thanks for your work, man! Being a midlife musician myself I appreciate your reviews’ perspective! Keep grinding!

Ok ok i am convinced. With the sub 25 and an upgrade to ableton 11 i will start again making music. 🎉 thanks!

Man!!! you and Loopop are the best in this synth stuff... Today my GrandMother arrives finally.... but the GAS still pointing me towards a new one with presets.... so, after watching your video and that last comment... I am definitively going for the Subsequent 37 next seasson. Gracias Amigo!

I don't get it but I never had my hands on a Moog .. So here's a noob question.. When you call a 'preset' do all the knobs turn to the exact position that you had them on when you saved the preset?

If it had a sequencer I would buy it

The SubPhatty was on the market years before the Subsequence 25. And from what little I know, the SubPhatty is monophonic, and the Subsequence 25 is duophonic.

What’s wrong with Dave smith? His stuff is awesome for poly 😁

Thanks for this video, still considering between 25 and 37. Its about the money in my case.

The lack of Arpeggiator or Sequencer is baffling. They crammed one on on the tiny Mother 32 and yet skimped on this beauty. Would scoop this up or the Sub Phatty in a heartbeat if so. Sticking to my Slim Phatty (includes arpeggiator) and external keybed for now when I feel the urge to Moog. Cheers from Texas.

Can't say who but I had a chat with a high profile sponsored moog artist who you probably know who said they dramatically prefer the sound of the 25 over the 37.

It’s really underrated. I love everything about it. Very inspiring and always sounds great. The way I look at it, it’s not a complicated synth but what it does, it does very well.

Not sure if you're gonna read this, but I'm looking at my first synth. I know its probably "diving into the deep end" a bit, but I'm sitting between the sub 25 and the grandmother. I won't gig or anything, just want it for home studio stuff. If you could only pick the one which would it be?

I'm a simple hobbyist, and my workflow is centered around my DAW. My only exposure to synthesis was VSTi soft-synths, and I really only ever surfed through presets. I set my eyes on the analog monosynth market, looking for something relatively cheap, and (at least close to) knob-per-function to learn on. I settled on a Behringer (gasp) Neutron, but at the time I was also heavily considering the Sub-25. If Moog had made it a desktop module and deducted the cost of the 2 octave keyboard from the price tag, I may have gone in that direction. The Neutron has served its purpose and is pretty good value for money. However, the Moog Sub-25 seems like it would integrate very nicely into the DAW based corner of my apartment where I tinker on my tunes. Still, already having an 88 key controller makes the Sub's 2 octave appendage seem like a waste of real estate. On the other hand... M O O G... sounds rather nice rolling off the tongue, no matter how you choose to pronounce it :) Decisions...decisions...

No arp or sequencer on this right..?

Who wanted a diet sub37 lol 😂 well said

Trying to decide on either Behringer poly D or Moog Subsequent 25 Already bought the sub 25 but i was sent a non working unit And they are out of stock for replacement. So now im thinking poly d

How is the sub 25 vs the sub phatty? I’m looking for like a raw bass machine btw.

MY MAN!!! I have a DFAM and a SUBSEQUENT 25!! Love them both and will keep them forever and ever! DFAM: Crazy funky synthy percussion SUB 25: FAT FAT synth basses, and sick slippery leads Lately, been looking REAL HARD at The Grandmother (Dark) for the exploration/inspiration When u said she has an "Endless sweet spot"... SOLD!!

I bought a sub 25 about 6 months ago.i bonded with it quickly.i brought it over my neighbors house a week after receiving it.he couldn't believe that I have only been playing it for a week.the last synth I owned was an original Arp Odessey.25 yrs.ago. I never liked slide controls! Always second guessing yourself! The sub 25 is perfect for my needs.i never got an owners manual but don't need it ! I love it!,

I understand it misses the arp and sequencer but can the sub 25 make all the same sounds as the sub 37?

Oh yeah. I define my purchasing of synth relative to the ease of which it fits into my non-existent YT video frame.

Yep I ordered my 25 and will use it for a lot of fonky sounds

But why not a proper module version of the sub25 like the even more portable minitaur ?

Great closing argument counselor! Perry Mason couldn't have said better 👍

You always have a unique way of reviewing stuff. Which is refreshing, to say the least. Keep it up! On the video: I`m that kind of person that would never settle for less. I`d rather save longer than miss out on functionality (hence my mpc X purchase). Any ideas on the polybrute vs. Moog sub 37? You probably won`t have one to review with...in the next 2 weeks... :-D

I already have a Sirin, and while its VCOs are super-limited, and the Sub25 has more filter options, I didn't feel it was enough of an upgrade. If/when I do upgrade, it will be to a Sub37. I disagree somewhat about the Sub37's sequencer and arpeggiator. Not having them on the Sub25 isn't a deal-breaker, but I like having them integrated into the synth. They're actually part of the instrument, which makes improvising with them easier. But yeah, the lack of a second LFO is why I'm not interested in the Sub25.

Um... between the two, don’t care. You want more features than the 25, yep, 37, you just want duo-phony, 25. I just think the 25 is a slap in the face and the wallet regardless unless your getting it used as the Sub Phatty can do duophonic as well but unlike novation Moog ‘needs’ the money.

from what I understand it was like Moog added true paraphony and _wayyy_ better MIDI to the Sub Phatty with this Sub 25. As a musician that was never a "keys person" who wants a couple octaves to regain all the music theory she lost over some decades, _and_ who wants that eponymous sound in its most 'present' register (the low-end: purely to make grimey, grungy, *naughty* music), the Sub 25 fits the setup I'm planning so incredibly well it _hurts_ 💖✨

Maaaan! You’re making some excellent points!! I hate loosing patches!! And I was lost on the Sub 37 in Sam Ash. Certainly worth looking into. I already have a Sirin. Not sure about the overlap yet, I think this may have a few more tricks up it’s sleeve.