Is the Punishment of Hell Temporary or Eternal? 

One of the key pillars of conditionalism is the nature of the human soul. Scripture clearly states that immortality comes via Christ. The belief that the human soul is naturally immortal come from Plato, not Jesus - not the apostles- not the Scripture

Be sure to let your friends and family know: REJECT THE PAPACY

This guy’s answer is very vague. I feel like he’s beating around the bush.

"Their arguments are far better...(but) I'm convinced they are not (right)." Thanks for the logic! LOL

Matthew 10:28 NKJV And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Death means life. Destruction means not destroyed. Vanish means not vanishing. Be no more means being around forever. Being ashes means being whole. Being consumed means absolutely not being consumed. Mortality means immortality. Essentially, the traditional view of what happens to the wicked is the exact opposite of what scripture literally says.

You are just making it up as you go along.

I believe scripture says that only those in Christ are given eternal life

“But God would not take away a life; He would devise plans so that the one banished from Him does not remain banished.” 2 Sam. 14:14

Is there a scripture that states or implies that the human soul is inherently eternal?

Read lamentations 3:31-33...... " FOR NO ONE IS CAST OFF BY THE LORD FOREVER, though he brings grief.HE WILL SHOW COMPASSION. so great is his unfalling love. For he does not willingly bring affliction or grief to anyone"....(and yes that's from the bible)..booyah..to u eternal hell believers!!!..I can quote more too

It feels like you said so much but said nothing at the same time

Theres a lot of reasoning against ideas which stem from believing that a God of love who loves people more than they know even more than there parents do (i know there are exeptions interms of parents loving their children lol ) could throw them into hell to suffer in eternal torment to such a degree as likened to being in a laver pitt. I have read the old testament once and the new twice and have read many a forums for and against annihilationalism and many scriptures verses supporting and opposing it and can see both sides of the argument and in this case scripture is truly subject to interpretation which the bible quotes it isnt . But puting this aside , one argument of which i have many against eternal conscious torment is that it would seem that the devil would have won in the end if the vast majority will be going to hell (as it mentions in the bible that only a few will be saved ) - its like a battle between 2 tribes the side that has the most soldiers remaining after the battle wins right - so has God lost then if in the finality of things . Even in the bible it mentions there will be no more death or misery as the former things have passed away - how van that be when there is a realm where the majority of Gods creation are suffering for a finite number of sins forever without any chance of parole - and would the righteous be eternally happy knowing that some of the people they loved on earth were suffering in such torment - What sort of victory would that be and what sort of God would allow that. I wouldnt allow my worst enemy to suffer forever in such torment and misery . It also mentions in revelation that the righteous will walk on the ashes of the wicked - how can that be if they are suffering in torment in a lake of fire somewhere ? Paul mention the wages of sin is death - not conscious torment forever. If i had the power to end someones suffering even if i disliked them but let them suffer forever just because of my morals i would be classed as a psychopath and a sadistic tyrant - but not God?

Anyone interested in this topic must read "The Fire that Consumes" by Edward Fudge. Probably the most thorough treatment.

Have been considering conditionalism. Very thoughtful response, Dr White.

James White makes the claim that the dead don't stop sinning. However, Revelation 21 says there will be no more sin!

I've heard James before say that a rebel sinner continues to sin after death but I've never heard him explain where he gets that idea.

. “This is good and acceptable in the sight of our God our savior; Who will have ALL men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus: Who gave himself a ransom for ALL, to be testified in due time.” (1 Tim. 2:3-6, KJV)

This was the most concise and digestible explanations on the subject I have heard explained. It is a position that is attractive yet untrue.

I believe Annihilationism is biblical, and on top of that, I think it makes more philosophical sense than either eternal conscious torment or universal reconciliation. God is just but also merciful, so he wouldn’t subject someone to ETERNAL suffering, but he’s also not going to force everyone to love him, because then it wouldn’t be genuine love. Therefore, you’re left with Annihilationism. Merciful and not coercive.

Since hell is a translation error anyway and means the grave and DEATH itself is the last thing God is going to destroy, then NO, "hell" doesn't go on infinitely.

Eternal torture would also mean that evil and the devil are not destroyed

That is so illogical James

This started so well and I am glad James admits the Conditionalist position is strong. But you miss the point in what the main issue is. Conditionalism says that it the saved are given immortality. It's not that the sinner simply ceases to exist, they are destroyed, they perish, they not recoeve eternal life, they die forever. Thay ids the second death.

"The vast majority of NT scholars hold...... to conditionalism" according to James White at 4:54. Interesting comment. I didn't know that. Makes you think.

James suggests that your hatred of God is what creates hell for you. Well James, hell is the only reason I would hate God in the first place, so that premise really doesn’t make any sense.

A lot of words but not much is said. Basically his conclusion is: God didn't deal with sin, He just moved the sin to another place. That doesn't make sense. It means there will always be a place where sin rules, there will always be people cursing God. As he admitted himself, conditionalists have good points and arguments. They have much more and much better arguments than the eternal torment believers have. So why do you not change your opinion regarding this subject?

You stated at the beginning, "tradition" and what people have been taught. That's a huge problem in many of our churches. As a pastor (and I hold a weekly Q&A) I've had many discussions on several "misconceptions" that people have been taught; this subject is one of them. On this subject there are several beliefs about hell that I hear. The subject you discussed in the video is one that bothers me that people believe. Then there are "sayings" like, "Hell is just a separation from God." Another odd belief is that Satan will be in control of hell. I could go on and on with all of these false beliefs which I know you are aware of. You are right, we need to be teaching these things as much as we teach against other false doctrines.

Well this was not exactly profound! The assumption that the sinner will keep on sinning does not explain anything and surely does not make any difference between whether they are completely destroyed or tormented forever. Your explanation was wholy inadequate. Any simpleton can see that. If a sinner is going to continue to sin that would be all the more reason to completely annihilate them. Destroy them. They cease to exist and their sin cannot continue. Yet for some reason you make an assumption that it would mean the opposite. That we should keep them alive and torment them. And that makes more sense? Not at all. Not at all It is quite the opposite

When Christ prayed at Getsemane He asked the father if there was any other way and there was not, same with ECT, there is no other way, how shall we escape if we neglect so great salvation ... you take away the sting of hell and there is no reason to live for Christ or for the cross itself and God's endless sacrifice for us ... Hell is Hell's best kept secret

It’s unfortunate that James uses his own logic and mind to decide, instead of relying on scriptures The Bible says over and over and over that unsaved souls are “destroyed”, “will be no more”, “will be just as if they had never been”, “have no future”, “be as if they had never been”, “be suddenly destroyed”, “not have any eternal life”, “vanish like smoke”, “be altogether destroyed”, “be like the snail that dissolves into slime”, And in greek the adjective can refer to the consequence. Eg “eternal judgment” on judgment day does not mean God takes forever to decide. The consequence is eternal. Same for eternal punishment, the consequence is losing eternal life. In isolation it would be hard to argue that “eternal punishment” (mentioned once) is annihilation. But it’s not in isolation. We have a mountain of direct verses telling us exactly what happens. Because it is even harder to argue that “complete destruction” means eternal life of suffering, we are obliged to settle the apparent discrepancy that way. “Eternal punishment” can with some difficulty be seen as annihilation. “Complete destruction” cannot with any amount of effort be seen as eternal life. 2. There is no 2; the Bible speaks for itself. No one can fail to understand “completely destroyed”. And for those who pretend they can, “be as if they had never been” and “be no more” clarify. ---- “the wicked are no more…” (prov 10:25), “[t]he wicked are overthrown and are no more…” (prov 12:7). “the evil have no future; the lamp of the wicked will go out” (prov 24:20). The wicked are sometimes depicted as being “consumed” by fire (Heb 6:8, 10:7; Jude 7, cf. Isa 33:11) the wide gate “leads to destruction” and the narrow gate that “leads to life” (Matt. 7:13). “fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell” (Matt. 10:28). God alone is able to both “save and destroy” (Jam. 4:12). Peter teaches that “destruction” awaits false, greedy teachers (2 Pet. 2:3). And Paul teaches that the quest for riches can plunge people into “ruin and destruction” (1 Tim. 6:9). Moreover, all who are “enemies of the cross” have “destruction” as their final end (Phil. 3:18-19, cf. 1:28). If anyone “destroys the temple of God, God will destroy that person” (1 Cor. 3:17). “sudden destruction” will come upon the wicked (1 Thess. 5:3). Judgments is a day for “the destruction of the godless” (2 Pet. 3:7). “every tree…that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown in the fire” (Matt. 3:10) The wicked shall be so thoroughly destroyed that they shall not even be remembered (Ps. 9:6; 34:16). In the powerful words of a later author, the wicked “shall be as though they had never been” (Obed. 16, emphasis added). The wicked “will soon fade like the grass, and wither like the green herb” (Ps. 37:2). They “shall be cut off…and… *will be no more* “ (Ps. 37:9-10). While the righteous “abide forever” (37:27), “the wicked perish…like smoke they vanish away” (Ps. 37:20); they “vanish like water that runs away; like grass be trodden down and wither”; “like the snail that dissolves into slime; like the untimely birth that never sees the sun” (Ps. 58:7-8). And again, “…transgressors shall be altogether destroyed” (Ps. 37:38, cf. vs. 34). That’s not just “ichdu” (destroyed), but “nshmdu ichdu” (altogether destoryed). No speaker of Hebrew would fail fo follow that. Repeat after me: Altogether Destroyed.

I lean towards annihilation myself. The problem I have with James answer here is that he says the lost sin and suffer forever. But Revelation 21 says there will be no more sin and suffering.

Well that was a complete waste of 15 minutes

Notice that every single person one will debate that believes in eternal conscience torment, will ALWAYS say I will annihilationism is true. That’s because the Holy Spirit is telling your soul what you believe is wrong

“I wish they are right” yes they are right, the problem is you can’t accept that you are wrong.

The cool thing is that all the problems, emotional, theological, etc automatically vanish when we realise that sin has nothing to do with behavior, conduct or actuons; it has everything to do with nature and identity. We dont “commit sin” we “are sin”

What's the point of eternal concious torment? What lesson is learned? What chance is there of redemption? How does eternally punishing mortal fallible beings for temporary faults not make the punisher worse than the punished?

Why do people keep on with this hell business when there is no hell in the true Hebrew or Greek scriptures from Genesis to revelation?!!!!!!!!?

Dude, such weak sauce. Any conditionalist theologian could easily shred your arguments. And they could do it just using scripture. You just said they have great arguments, and you clearly don't, yet you decide you're right and they're wrong.

A year later, and toilet paper panic is still in the memory bank 🤦‍♂️

If God intends eternal conscious torment shouldn't that be in the Scriptures plainly and often? But the O.T. does not mention it. And it is but vaguely hinted at in a half-dozen N.T. verses. Why is that?

This was really helpful! Thank you

So James White believes not only in the hideous doctrines of Calvinism but also in the hideous doctrine of eternal torment. Wow, what a lovely set of doctrines. What "Good News"!

I don't feel like the question was answered. Dr. White just offered one possible (although not necessarily biblical) reason why he believes the wicked will be tormented forever - they will continue to sin. If that is the case, it seems that the only way God will actually be ultimately victorious over sin would be to eventually annihilate the wicked.

Show me one scripture that says our soul is eternal. The Bible says only God is immortal. Eternal burning is inextricably tied to humans having an eternal soul. Jesus said in Matthews fear God who can destroy both soul and body in hell fire.

Annihilationism is an eternal punishment. It also puts an end to rebellion against God.

I’ve recently been studying this issue and my problem with his answer is just as he asserts that the conditionalist wants to add their desire to the text he too is adding his opinion. He can’t say clearly that somehow God would be wronged if he destroyed disbelievers completely, only God can make that determination.

If people will just keep sinning indefinitely then they are defective creations and SHOULD be destroyed. What would be the point of keeping them around?

Forever means a period of time in greek, it's never been no end in the Bible, E.G soddum and Gomorrah, Jonah and the whale, 3 days and 3 nights. Hell will be on earth and we come back after 1k is expired and walk over the ashes of the wicked.. iam sure your reading the verse out of context. Only God has immortality life and who are saved not the demons and people in hell. Sin will be wipped out from the universe.

Then the King will say to those on his right, “Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.” . . . Then he will say to those on his left, “Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. . . . And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” The word eternal in the above verse is the Greek word aiōnion, it means eternal. In Revelation 14:11 it says, "And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be NO REST DAY OR NIGHT for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.” In Revelation 20 we find this, "And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be TORMENTED DAY AND NIGHT FOREVER AND EVER... Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if ANYONE"S name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. In Matthew 25:46, “And {the wicked} will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” The two words translated eternal above are from the same Greek word; aiōnion. It means “eternal” in both. By the way, if you say hell above is NOT eternal, do you also say eternal life above is NOT eternal? They are the same word in one verse. In Daniel 12:2, “…and many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth (the dead) shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.” The words everlasting in this verse come from the Greek word ō-w-lām. It means eternal. You say only God is eternal, yes with no beginning, BUT God Himself promises eternal life to all who will trust in Jesus. AND as the scriptures above prove, He promises eternal suffering to all who refuse Christ. The soul that sin shall surely die; this is a reference to the second death, which the Bible clearly says is the Lake of Fire. AND again, as stated above involves eternal "torment." You are right when you say ONLY those who trust in Christ will receive eternal life, but those who reject Christ will receive their reward; eternal suffering in the Lake of fire. Would a God of Love send the unrepentant sinner to hell? In Hebrews 10:26-36 it says, “If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God...For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” and again, “The Lord will judge his people.” It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." You said that their smoke rises forever and NOT their torment, but you know that is not true, it says, "the smoke OF THEIR TORMENT rises forever." You say death in the bible means a state of unconsciousness. Not according to Jesus. He talks of Lazarus and the rich man dying and both lift up their eyes and find themselves in a state of FULL consciousness. Lazarus in Abraham's Bosom, BUT the rich man, by his own words in torment in flames. You also said the person who dies isn't aware of anything, the rich man in flames said, "Father Abraham, send Lazarus over to me that he might dip his finger in water and touch the tip of my tongue for I am in torment in these flames." Look, I wish there was no eternal Hell, it breaks my heart to think of people going there for eternity (i have family and friends who have not come to christ) but the Bible as I have demonstrated above has a lot to say about ETERNAL punishment in the Lake of Fire. Think of the story of Uzzah. God had told the Israelites to move the Ark of the Covenant. They were instructed to put it on an oxcart and move it to a particular location. God earlier had stated that "No one but the Levites were allowed to EVER touch the Ark." Well in this particular Bible account, the ox stumbled and the cart tipped and the Ark was about to fall, BUT Uzzah WHO was NOT a Levite, reached out his hand and saved the Ark from possible damage. Did God commend Uzzah for saving the Ark? NO! the Bible says, "The anger of God flared up and killed Uzzah on the spot." The moral of the story; God wants us to obey HIS WORD, and not do or believe what we think is right. Re-read the above verses and ask yourself, do these really say God will not let the person who rejects Christ suffer in hell, but will simply put them out of existence?

But what is the punishment according to the law,. The debate has never been about eternal but rather what is the punishment. Because the death penalty, imprisonment and torture are all types of punishment.

The idea of suffering without end makes God incredible cruel. This picture of God cannot be reconciled with justice and love or any other attribute of God.

"If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell." Matthew 5:29-30........Revelation 14:11 "And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”" Sounds eternal to me.....I understand why people don't like the doctrine but there are all kinds of things in the Bible that I might not like but doesn't make them untrue.

I'm surprised so many people said this was helpful. He didn't really engage the scriptures at all and when he described the conditionalist view, he fumbled through a mangled version of what they believe.

James, stop with the assertions. It doesn't matter if you want to say the wicked continue in their state of sin after death. The wicked are being judged for the short amount of time they are on the planet Earth. They are being judged for their Finite wickedness

There is no eternal hell

Why does Dr. White assume that God stops dealing with the wicked after death? He assumes that "the restraints have been removed" and therefore the sinner "continues to sin". The Bible teaches no such thing.

I didn't agree entirely with the response. I think much of it was a very confusing opinion on what "Justice" is. If humans have the ability to Love another so much, they would not want them to suffer day and night forever, would that mean our love is greater than God's? That would be blasphemous to think so. Which is why I question Hell being eternal. What is Justice, and what is Mercy? I know we are not perfect in either, but it is something to think about.

Some thoughts on people continuing to sin in hell forever: "[In] the vicious circle argument, God creates a situation in hell in which sin is not merely _punished_ for eternity but actually _perpetuated for eternity._ But why would God wish to create a situation in which many of his creatures rebel against him forever? Hell does not _have_ to be that way. For instance, God could make those in hell fully aware of the weight of their crimes and the righteousness of his judgment. Such sinners would suffer but would recognize that they fully deserve the punishment they are receiving and would not rage against God. Or, God could annihilate those in hell, eradicating both sin and sinner. Alternatively, as I will argue later, God could restore those in hell and redeem them from sin. In all these ways justice is still done, but sin is not perpetuated. And any of these three alternatives seem preferable to the view according to which sin is never _removed_ from creation but merely contained in a kind of stasis chamber where it is perfectly balanced by punishment." --Gregory MacDonald (aka Robin Parry), _The Evangelical Universalist_

Never mentioned one Bible verse until your assistant brought up Matthew 25:46, the only verse in the Bible that says "eternal punishment". The Greek translation of "Kolasin Aionion" can be debated. It seems that God would've told us in more than one verse if it was as serious as eternal punishment. The Bible repeats many things over and over that are less important.

If the eternal state is not a timed state, as time was created, then how can anybody/thing be annihilated at some point in it, since points reflect time? Either they are annihilated before the eternal state, in which some will not undergo punishment, or they suffer eternally.

Philippians 2:9-11 “Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.” Isaiah 45:23 “I have sworn by Myself; The word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, And shall not return, That to Me every knee shall bow, Every tongue shall take an oath.” These verses refute the claim that sinners who die without being forgiven will perpetually remain in a state of sinning.

Never been challenged??? I challenge anyone to prove to me that the traditionalist view is biblical. The only way the traditionalist view works is if you change the definitions of biblical words. Death, destruction, destroy, perish don't mean what they say.

I agree in his solitude statement and that is where I have a contradiction. Where do the demons come from?

What I’m not understanding about this is the part where he refers to the sinners continuous rebellion after death. If you’re dead how can you continue to rebel? You’re dead! You can’t do anything. You’re dead! A believe dies today and is buried. Guess what, they can’t sin anymore because they are dead, you have to animate in order to behave or even think. If blood is not flowing to your brain you cannot commit an act nor can you commit a thought crime you’re brain is off. So we die. God resurrects EVERYONE! And then the final judgment comes, based on your deeds if you are not covered by the blood of Christ. During that judgement ALL men are ALIVE! That’s what resurrection implies. So then God determines whether or not you were covered by the blood of his son. If you are, the gift is eternal life. If you are not you’re punishment is death. The opposite of the gift. If you are suspended in torment you are not dead because you still consciously experience, therefore you have secured a gift that was not promised to you, that gift was reserved for the faithful. Though the gift is not pleasant you still received it. In order to be dead you must be as you were before you were born, if you are not as you were before you were born then you are not dead you are indeed still alive. Adam and Eve were told they would DIE! Now if Gods definition of death is eternal conscious torment I think that information would’ve have been conveyed clearly before eating the fruit. If not what you’re saying is God is not of good character because he forgot to mention what death entails. But God saw if for to simply use the word DIE.

and also Matthew 10:47-48. And, of course, lean not on your own understanding. Listened to 11 minutes and not one verse? You are sacrificing the Word of God to fit your understanding.

You can thank the pagans who "became christians" in the early centuries for bringing this doctrine into the church. Unless you already believe it, you must twist the scriptures to find it. God has stated over and over that the wages of sin is death, and the the soul that sinneth, it shall die. Jesus said to fear God, who can destroy both body and soul in gehenna. At the judgement, unsaved souls are cast into the Lake of Fire (gehenna). This is the Second Death, the death and destruction of the soul. Your existence is ended. Dont confuse the judgement of immortal beings (ie: Satan), with the judgement of mortal men. Eternal life is a gift reserved for the saved, not the damned. God is love. But some want to make Him worse than any monster. If you know the love of God, you can't believe this. Check out "The fire that consumes" for a good scriptural primer on this topic. God help us.

No one hates God for how can you hate what you have been wired to love. God is love and we naturally love love. what people hate is a false concept of God for it doesn't resonate with the blueprint that we all have in our consciousness that God the Creator put there as a measuring stick to test what is of God and what isn't. We all know what is morally right and what is morally wrong. when we meet the Creator and see our past life and how we lived then in the light of His perfect love we will see ourselves and abhor ourselves and cry out for forgiveness and if somehow this was impossible then God being love and love is to do what is best for the one loves then all God could do is blot them out of existence. To know God is to love Him and to love Him is to obey Him and in obeying Him we experience Him. Love is greater than fear. love is to value and love doesn't let anyone go. we become our own judges and when we realize what we are and what we have done in the light of God's holiness we will cry out for forgiveness and well get it, for God is love. No one will get away with anything, true justice will be done according to the principles of love. We must see what we have done and why what we did was morally wrong. God doen't punish God corrects.

"For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must PUT ON IMMORTALITY. When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal PUTS ON IMMORTALITY, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.” “O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?” [1 Cor. 15:53-55]. The "immortality" that is "put on" at the 2nd Advent of Christ only applies to the saints (all believers from all time). The wicked are NEVER said to "put on immortality" ever...at any time. They will be destroyed in the Lake of Fire at the Final Judgement, at their respective resurrection (after the Millennium). *Soli Deo Gloria*

The wages of sin is death. Not everlasting punishment. Although, death itself is everlasting.

So God never has justice, and never defeats evil with finality? He just has to keep punishing and punishing a sin-producing entity that never stops? Show me that in the Bible.

Dr David Bentley Hart. Nuff said.

𝗘𝗩𝗘𝗥𝗬 (spirit's) knee will bow (in submission and repentance) and 𝗖𝗢𝗡𝗙𝗘𝗦𝗦 (recognize and submit to the Lordship) Christ Jesus is Lord.

White can make any question a pretext to talk about himself.

so if, as he argues from about 9:00 on, IF one can continue sinning after death, why could one not repent after death? What is it about being alive in the body which offers the opportunity for repentance? If sinning can somehow continue after the body? If you can still be punished for new sins after death... why is repentance not still available? None of it makes sense really. That's why conditionalism makes more sense. You do stop sinning and stop with the option for repentance etc as it is over entirely if you die.

I'll bet there will be more prayers from hell after judgement than any other time in history.😢

James doesn’t know about the Jerome conspiracy

Annihilation is the punishment and it’s everlasting. Cessation of life is what death is. The wages of sin is the cessation of life (that is it’s death, the second death)

Excellent Dr. White - of course this would be addressed the one DL I missed. Been working through this for quite a while and this is the answer of what I was looking for.

There are many clues in the parable* of Lazarus and the Rich Man that, instead of contrasting the saved vs. unsaved, it's contrasting the treatment of Jews vs. Gentiles in the gospel age^, when the tables would be turned**: 1. Rich Man -- is never directly accused of a sin (only of being wealthy)^^ 2. Lazarus -- is never described as righteous (only of being a beggar)* * * 3. Purple -- indicates royalty (chosenness) 4. Fine linen -- was for Jewish priests (Exodus 28:39) 5. Abraham -- why is he in this parable at all? Because it specifically concerns Judaism. 6. Father Abraham -- described as "Father" 7. Flame -- the flame is singular -- not plural -- strongly suggesting this isn't about hell 8. Five Brothers -- The 5 FULL-blooded brothers of Judah were Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Issachar & Zebulun (Gen. 35:23) 9. Moses & Prophets -- The Jewish people had Moses and the prophets 10. Not Convinced by One Rising from the Dead -- a prophecy of Christ's pending resurrection, which his Jewish audience would become very familiar with but would not heed (for the most part) * It follows the parables of the Lost Sheep, the Lost Coin, the Prodigal Son and the Unjust Steward, strongly suggesting that it, too, is a parable. So does one drop of water being able to help in this situation. ^ In the gospel age, Israel is partially hardened by God (Rom. 11:25), while Gentiles are included in the church. ** This doesn't _excuse_ centuries of antisemitism, right up to the present time. ^^ The Rich Man's material wealth represents his belonging to the chosen people, and having the written revelation of God (Hebrew scriptures). * * * "Lazarus" is arguably another name for "Eliezer," Abraham's Gentile servant (Gen. 15:2). Here, Lazarus represents Gentiles who were beggars in the sense that they were lacking knowledge of God, due to God's chosen people not having shared it with them. Consider the unjust steward in the preceding parable, and Jesus overturning tables at the temple.

This response doesnt take the equally difficult counter question into consideration: how does a person continue to have subjective experience (or consciousness), when God removes His life sustaining power? What "life" does the creature maintain in hell? The conditionalist posits that the judgment by necessity annihilates the individual by virtue of removing that penuma.

That’s why I enjoy a good healthy debate between both sides and inside being Seventh-day Adventist who do not believe in eternal hell and the orthodox view….

This topic and the reaction you're speaking of is akin to current eschatological beliefs. Most people are dispensationalists and have no clue what the preterists/partial preterists positions are. They look at you as if you're speaking in tongues when trying to get them to understand it's a viable belief with a solid history.

If it is OK to assume we may sin after death why is it not reasonable to say we can ask for forgiveness after death as well?

This is why I believe the Bible wasn't written by men alone. The concept of Hell is so frightening that no human would come up with it... especially trying to justify a loving and passionate God being compatible with eternal punishment. God's love and the idea of eternal punishment in Hell is above our understanding. God Himself says, My ways are higher than yours and My thoughts are higher than your thoughts.

They don’t remain in the condition of rebellion because they are dead. You can’t continue to act and think when you are dead because you’re dead. The resurrection implies that the wicked and the just MUST be CONSCIOUS in order to receive their judgement therefore those who are not resurrected are not CONSCIOUS therefore they cannot act or think. Which means their sin is indeed finite. Addressing the point that sin is against an infinite God simplifies Gods ability’s, as if God cannot think or make rationale decisions based off his own attributes. Just because he is an infinite God does not mean his hands are tied in regards to being reasonable, IF his creation is capable of reason how much more would the CREATOR be capable of reason? What Mr. White is referring to is the fact they have not RECEIVED their judgment yet. Not that they remain in the CONDITION of sin, but rather they died in sin still hating God and have not yet RECEIVED their just punishment. Also eternal conscious torment does not square up with Gods promise that a new creation will be made void of sin. If the wicked are judged and suspended in eternal conscious torment what exactly is their position-relationally to God-in this consciousness? Their sin has been revealed to them and they have confessed that Christ is King. So are the wicked now repentant upon their judgement and into their punishment? If not, then they are eternally suspended in sin, but sin can no longer exist in Gods new creation. You can’t have human beings still hating God for all eternity in heaven. That would not be heaven. This also is not a finalization. God says that IT IS FINISHED! If people are still actively hating God for eternity then God finished nothing. Think about this IF repentance is only a gift from God then those who are suffering eternal conscious torment can never repent and therefore are still sinning for ALL eternity. Though they have bowed their knees in submission to their creator they cannot repent of their deeds. They can’t be allowed to sin any longer.

Annihilationists so casually cast off passages like "many will come to me saying Lord, Lord [who I never knew & I will say to them], Depart from me, into outer darkness, where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth." Why would anyone weep & gnash their teeth if they're just turned off? Annihilation is not even Judgement as most who hate God prefer the outcome of no Judgement & just death. Why would the Lost be raised on the last Day only to be shut off? The Parable of the Rich man & Lazarus finds two men, post death, separated by a great chasm and the rich man is suffering. God placed eternity in our hearts, I believe the Scripture teaches immortality of souls, & that hell parallels heaven where duration is concerned. Dying doesn't change someone's heart disposition.

Wayne Grudem has made the same arguments as Dr. James White has in this video, namely that the unsaved continue to sin in hell which is why the punishment is everlasting. I am undecided on this issue, but lean slightly towards eventual annihilationism.

Wait so I don’t actually have to be a Christian and not be afraid of some god punishing me with separation from him for eternity. Can someone please confirm this for me or give me a link to a video on ceasing to exist thing.

That's real simple it is written it will never stop so what's that say forever for internity. Our Father doesn't destroy the soul AKA our spirits, I NEVER NEW YOU words you never want to hear your Castaway for internity to live with all the other wickedness of this world. The Lord talks about hell more than heaven when he was doing his ministry can't say we all weren't warned.

A vast scholars hold to universalism too

“Therefore do not fear them. For there is nothing covered that will not be revealed, and hidden that will not be known.” ‭‭Matthew‬ ‭10:26‬

i respect this christian brother..but the way i see how he responded to the question is he would soon be on the conditional immortality side...just like many other theologions who have studied it

Post 1 Who was hell created for in the first place? Was Hell made for finite creatures who possess houses of clay, that is, flesh or was it made for those who are spirit beings? According to Matthew 25:41, Hell itself was created for the Devil and his angels who are spirits, not having bodies of flesh. Hebrews 1:7,14 7 And of the angels He says, “WHO MAKES HIS ANGELS WINDS, AND HIS MINISTERS FLAMING FIRE.” 14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent to render service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation? Matthew 25:41 41“Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; Since hell was created for Satan, who is a spiritual being, those who follow after his works will be thrown into the same location, hell. Matthew 25:41,45,46 As a human being, do we only possess a body or are we made up of unearthly or immaterial substances? As a son and daughter of Adam, we are made of body, soul and spirit according to the Scriptures. The point is like the Devil or Satan, our soul and spirit cannot be destroyed. For God is a spirit (John 4:23-24); so our spirit lives on forever; likewise, Satan lives on forever. First, according to the O.T. Texts, we are made of body, soul, and spirit. We are not made of one part but of three: body, soul, and spirit: (1 Thessalonians 5:23), (some say they’re two: soul and body); We have ‘a body’, no debate; We have a ‘soul’: O.T., Genesis 2:7; job 6:7, job12:10 ‘life or soul’, ch 21:25 ch 27:2 ‘embittered my soul’; Isaiah 53:11 ‘anguish of his soul’; Ezekiel 18:19,20. N.T. , JESUS: Mark 14:34 ‘soul’, Mary’s song: Luke 1:46 ‘my soul’; Acts 2:27, Revelation 6:9 ch. 20:4; Looking at the spirit: O.T., Genesis 7:22 ‘the breath of the spirit of life’ Hezekiel’s song; Isaiah 38:16 he says ‘my spirit’; Psalms 143:4 ‘my spirit’ grows faint within me; N.T., JESUS Matthew 27:50 ‘his spirit’ & Luke 23:46 ‘I commit my spirit’, John 19:30 ‘yield up his spirit’; Mary song: Luke 1:47 now she says ‘my spirit’; James 2:26 body without the ‘spirit’ 1 Thessalonians 5:23 LSB 23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely, and may YOUR SPIRIT AND SOUL AND BODY be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 Faithful is He who calls you, who also will do it. The spirit and soul goes to him who created him but if that person was evil then where does his soul go? Before Christ rose from the dead, all went to the ground or earth. Psalm 143:4 in the ground/earth. The souls go to Sheol/Hell or congregation of the dead רְפָאִ֣ים (shades or ghosts plural) Thus, after death, an individual is goes or departs, his body changes color, and God sends him away. Where does this person go? To the grave or Sheol, where the spirits of the departed goes. For those who were of God, who followed his commandments or obeyed his voice, to a place of rest; those who disobeyed the Lord, to a place, of torment, mourning and pain. Job 14:19-22 19 The waters wear the stones: thou washest away the things which grow out of the dust of the earth; and thou destroyest the hope of man. Destroy abad: to perish A primitive root; properly, to wander away, i.e. Lose oneself; by implication to perish (causative, destroy) -- break, destroy(- uction), + not escape, fail, lose, (cause to, make) perish, spend, X and surely, take, be undone, X utterly, be void of, have no way to flee. To destroy often times, it means to die or perish. Job 14:20 Thou prevailest for ever against him, and he passeth: thou changest his countenance, and sendest him away. Prevail 8630-taqeph: to prevail over, overpower For ever 5331-netsach: eminence, enduring, everlastingness, perpetuity Against him וַֽיַּהֲלֹ֑ךְ he passeth- 1980 halak: to go, come, walk, DEPART all along, apace, behave self, come, on continually, be conversant, depart, be eased, Akin to yalak; a primitive root; to walk (in a great variety of applications, literally and figuratively) Changest-shanah: to repeat, do again do speak, strike again, alter, double A primitive root; to fold, i.e. Duplicate (literally or figuratively); by implication, to transmute (transitive or intransitive) -- (be given to) change, disguise, transmute definition is to change in form, nature Face/Countenance- 6440 panim or paneh: face, faces Sendest him away 7971-shalach: to send A primitive root; to send away, for, or out (in a great variety of applications) Job 14:21 His sons come to honour, and he knoweth it not; and they are brought low, but he perceiveth it not of them. Noticed, after death, we will not be aware of what’s going on here, on earth; if our son, becomes president we won’t know it, or if our sons or daughters becomes poor, we will not perceive it. *Job 14:22 22 But his flesh upon him shall have PAIN, and his SOUL within him shall MOURN. Here, we have an individual mourning and in pain after death which means his or her soul are alive. Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might; for there is no working or explaining or knowledge or wisdom IN SHEOL WHERE YOU ARE GOING.

I've been a believer if Christ for 45 years, and I really hope Hell is not eternal punishment, BUT scripture is pretty clear. Matthew 25:46, “And {the wicked} will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” The two words translated eternal above are from the same Greek word: aiōnion. It means “eternal” in both. By the way, if you say hell above is NOT eternal, do you also say eternal life above is NOT eternal? They are the same word in one verse. Revelation 14:9-11, “A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur…And the smoke of their TORMENT rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night..." If a person was annihilated, put out of existence, then "no rest day or night" would not be an issue. By the way the word torment is translated from the Greek word "basanismou" and if you look in a Greek concordance it means torture, pain, torment. It does NOT mean annihilate. By the way, why doesn't the Bible just plainly say, the unbeliever will be ANNIHILATED, and he will NOT suffer for eternity.

I like the Orthodox view of hell. that hell is being unwillingly surrounded in the presence of God and being tortured by God's righteousness and purity

I don't believe in annihilation by tradition. I believe in it by scripture God's word truth line upon line precept on precept read in context.

James is assuming the immortality of the soul, there is no scriptural support for this.

Post 5 *Take note, concerning if a person is CONSCIOUS in HELL or not; the Rich Man was CONSCIOUS and AWARE of WHERE he was at, in *Luke 19:19-31* Luke 19:19-31 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. 27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. hell ᾍδης hadés: 86 Hades, the abode of departed spirits 86 hádēs (from 1 /A "not" and idein/eidō, "see") - properly, the "unseen place," referring to the (invisible) realm in which all the dead reside, i.e. the present dwelling place of all the departed (deceased); Hades. Both Lazarus and the rich man DIED; BOTH were CONSCIOUS and AWARE of where they were; one was in Abraham’s bosom, Lazarus; and the other, the rich man, in hell: he had FIVE BROTHERS and did not desire for them to BE IN HELL, where he was, is the point. 1 Samuel 28:7-19 11 Then said the woman, WHOM SHALL I BRING UP UNTO THEE? And he said, Bring me up Samuel. 12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul. 13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth. 14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself. 15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up?… The fifth seal where THE SLAIN SOULS cried out to the Lord, were CONSCIOUS AND AWARE what had occurred to them “… judge and AVENGE OUR BLOOD ON THEM THAT DWELL ON THE EARTH”, and “SOULS that were beheaded”, deliver his SOUL from THE HAND/POWR of THE GRAVE”: Revelation 6:9-11: 9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. NO PROPHECY OF SCRIPTURE COMES BY ONE’S OWN INTERPRETATION…being moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God Jude v7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, having indulged in the same way as these in gross sexual immorality and having gone after [†]strange flesh, are exhibited as an [†]example in undergoing THE PUNISHMENT OF ETERNAL FIRE. 2 Peter 2:6 and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah TO DESTRUCTION BY REDUCING THEM TO ASHES, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter Jude 7 “exhibited as an [†]example in undergoing THE PUNISHMENT OF ETERNAL FIRE.” Matthew 13:24-*30,40-42*, 36-43 30 Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather up the tares and bind them in bundlesTO BURN THEM UP; but gather the wheat into my barn.”’ bind them in bundles gather the wheat into my barn (Jesus is Lord) according to Micah 4:12 TO BURN THEM UP BURN KATAKAIÓ: to burn up Usage: I burn up, consume entirely. From kata and kaio; to burn down (to the ground), i.e. Consume wholly -- burn (up, utterly). to burn up (see κατά, III. 4), consume by fire: τί, Matthew 13:30; Acts 19:19; passive, 1 Corinthians 3:15; Hebrews 13:11; 2 Peter 3:10 (Tr WH εὑρεθήσεται, see εὑρίσκω, 1 a. at the end); Revelation 8:7; with πυρί added, Matthew 3:12; Matthew 13:40 R L T WH, but G Tr καίω; Luke 3:17 (Exodus 29:14; Exodus 32:20 Alex., etc.; see καίω); ἐν πυρί (often so in the Sept.), Revelation 17:16; Revelation 18:8. (καίω and κατακαίω are distinguished in Exodus 3:2.) Matthew 13:*42* 42 and WILL THROW THEM into THE FIERY FURNACE; IN THAT PLACE THERE WILL BE WEEPING AND GNASHING OF TEETH. 2 Peter 1:20-21 20 Know this FIRST OF ALL, that NO PROPHECY OF SCRIPTURE COMES by one’s own interpretation. 21 FOR NO PROPHECY was ever made by the will of man, but men being moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God. Revelation 1:3 ch 22:7,18-19 3 BLESSED IS HE WHO READS and those who HEAR THE WORDS OF THE PROPHECY and KEEP THE THINGS WHICH ARE WRITTEN in it, for the time is near. Revelation 22:7,10,18-19 7“And behold, I am coming quickly. BLESSED IS HE WHO KEEPS THE WORDS OF THE PROPHECY OF THIS BOOK.” 10And he said to me, “Do not seal up THE WORDS OF THE PROPHECY OF THIS BOOK, for the time is near 18 I bear witness to everyone who hears THE WORDS OF THE PROPHECY OF THIS BOOK: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book. 19 And if anyone takes away from THE WORDS OF THE BOOK OF THIS PROPHECY, God will take away his part from the tree of life and [†]from the holy city, which are written in this book.

Let me say i'm 99% sure about everything i say in this comment. What does the bible say? Well here's probably the first scripture ETERNAL TORMENT deniers would have to deal with. Matthew 25:46. 46 “And they will go away into ETERNAL PUNISHMENT, but the righteous into ETERNAL LIFE” ((( Ok, so, now IF/IF these two ETERNAL words in this scripture mean the same thing. Then a person who believes ETERNAL PUNISHMENT in this verse does not mean never ending conscious TORMENT then they would also have to say that ETERNAL LIFE in this scripture also DOES NOT mean ETERNAL never ending CONSCIOUS LIFE either. ))))