Rule number one - There are no original ideas. Yes, I'm sure there are many examples of copycating, but when it comes to general tropes, i.e., chosen one, it's not the concept that needs to be original, but the story itself.
Like yes, Harry Potter and Star Wars have VERY similar tropes and plot (that one video explains it well) but they are still SO FAR different from each other, most people wouldn't notice
@@KiwiKameaAnd Star Wars is patterned after Joseph Campbell’s The Hero with A Thousand Faces, which says that every story is basically the same already.
You (the general you) are the unchosen one! (Billions of voices cry out in the night: No!!!!) Puddleglum: (Thank you, Aslan!) Later in life. D'oh! How did this happen?
Finally! It's like that video that calls HP a star wars rip off. HP is a lot of things but it isn't that. They just both clearly read Joseph Campbell or studied western lit.
In fact, there's a moment in A Memory of Light that does its best to deconstruct the very cyclical nature of The Hero's Journey at the heart of WoT. The chapter is called "Those Who Fight" and while you can very well make the argument that a lot of them come from positions of privilege and power, we also have hard confirmation via Word of God that there have been "Draws" in the past. Where the Dragon joins the Shadow but the Those Who Fight prevent the Pattern from unraveling. So while important, The Dragon alone is *not* enough. That's why Mat and Perrin exist, in part. Which somewhat goes counter to the exaltation of The Hero in this type of story.
@@Arachne97Anyone who really understood Joseph Campbell would never accuse HP of ripping off Star Wars. It just follows some of the patterns and traits that Star Wars is directly following.
@@ziglaus good question. It needs to be more specific than you think. For example: wealthy orphan goes on a journey that leads him to fight for justice. I just described batman, frodo baggins, Harry potter, King Arthur, arguably Oliver Twist (though his wealth comes in at the end of thr story). Yet these are all very unique stories. It's hard to quantify where the line is
Remember folks, these 3 laws of literature: 1.- If it's sci-fi is based on Dune 2.- if it's fantasy is based on Tolkien 3.- If its terror is based in Stephen King
@@watcherinmaze Terror and Horror are different things: 1.- Terror is the feeling of dread and uneasiness that precedes a traumatic/horrifying experience and lingers around after said experience has passed. An example of this is how in IT the losers are constantly afraid of Pennywise even if they know it isn't around. 2.- Horror is the revulsion and abhorrence one feels when presented with an abnormal situation in which danger is perceived, normally horror is preceded by a sense of curiosity due to the abnormality of the situation. An example would be when in "Into the Mountains of Madness" the scientists are studying the remains of the Ancient Ones and their home.
@@Mattheqit does. Dune feels way more contemporary for its time. The stuff that fantasy authors revolutionized in the 90s, Dune sort of did them in the 60s
That wouldn’t be a problem if the people they stole from would get recognition as well (as it used to be with medieval literature). In Picasso’s case they were a lot of indigenous and female artists
the hero's journey is a relatively simple story that has been told over and over since we had fire and will continue to be told over and over until humanity ends
@classicmax1 provide evidence to your claim, because as someone who has read the book "The Hero's Journey" by Joseph Campbell that is about a pattern found in storytelling, folklore, and mythology as well as someone who studies all of those things I would love to see evidence that Dune is not an example of the hero's journey
I must have missed the part in Wheel of Time where the main character's son becomes an all powerful, immortal Worm God-Emperor that continuously clones and then kills his father's best friend over several millennium, all while creating an inter-galactic empire where the primary military is comprised of enhanced super soldiers, all of whom are women save for their leader. The aforementioned repeatedly cloned and killed best friend of the father. Of the Sandworm/Human hybrid. That results when you become one with salmon. Wonder if maybe that's in book 8 or something, still reading so I'm unsure.
@@justinking3558 Yeah, if I had a nickel for every time that happened I'd have two nickels. Which isn't a lot, but it's weird that it happened twice, right?
Aviendha and her children? Elaine and her twins?... Possibly pregnant Min being truthsayer to Prince of Ravens' Empress? Fortuona's child marrying Elaine's child in unwritten tales would made a powerful couple.
@@Diveyl Y'know, it's funny with WoT. I'm on book 13 atm but have been listening to the audiobooks. It's always a fun game when reading about the series and getting slapped in the face with the actual spelling of some names. It's Tear, not Tyr; Aviendha, not Avienda; Aes Sedai, not Aesedai; Aiel, not Ayeel. One of these days I half expect to be told that Rand is spelled with three silent Qs
It’s also ironic that she brings up patriarchy fear of powerful female organizations considering Leto 2nd replaces his fremen soldiers and sardkar with the fishspeakers a all female army
"I think _ is just a rip off of _." *pulls up a chair and sits in it backwards like Min* "So, Tropes, as a dictionary definition..." This is why we need more reading comprehension education in school. Also, part I find funny about that interpretation of the Aiel? The Aiel are ethnically white.
Then there is George RR Martin with an Iron Throne when Mercedes Lackey published a book with a mad Emperor on an Iron Throne made of weapons a year or two before his series came out, now that, is blatant theft, imo
@@aaronhess7781 I don’t have a source, but I’m pretty sure he did it because it was ridiculous and he thought it was funny to be Irish looking people in a desert
How much do you know about how Irish ppl have been treated during history? I assure you that Europeans/Brits didn't consider them white, at one point in time.
"Thing I just discovered and am obsessed with invented everything it contains, and everything that remotely resembles it has committed *thunderclap* PLAGIARISM!" And somewhere the ancient pre-history peasant who first gossipped about a love triangle is rolling in their grave. Once you consume enough of your favorite media, you begin to realize that hey, you only have two nickels, but it's strange that's happened twice... where do these nickels come from? And you'll find out that it's in the Bible, or it's from the Journey to the West, or an old Irish folktale.
@@ziglaus Generally because plagiarism is wholesale lifting of a story or text and then changing the details. So there is a gulf between "inspired by" and "this is basically". Of course if the text is old enough and well enough known, people just allow you to riff on it without a care, so re-writes of folk tales or similar are fair game (looks at billionth riff on Journey to the West).
Jordan did say that WOT was a deliberate mix of Lord of the Rings and Dune. There is also a good mix of many other series where he got his world history and magic systems from.
Yeah, it feels weird to dismiss any arguments about the similarities and suddenly boiling it down to "nah white man guilt, and therefore there's no argument." If I stole a storyline from 100 years ago, and then someone rewrote my story, is it no longer a relevant criticism due to a century old story/tropes?
To be fair, Tolkien said the same thing about Lord of the Rings and various European myths, and Frank Herbert did the same taking inspiration from many scifi short stories
@@ANullAssaultthere is more than enough steps between Dune and LotR to a narrative WoT. That isn't true for many other works which aren't really a symbiosis or reimagining of key themes but are genuinely just derivative.
to be fair, the character of Hamlet is more original and far more profound than the drama itself. This is essentially what Harold Bloom argued was so powerful about the work in Shakespeare: The Invention of the Human
Books are a perfect example of the phrase “more than the sum of its parts.” Many excellent works of literature share A LOT of common elements when you break them down, especially when the authors draw from history and old folklore and such. You can give two writers the same tidbits of allegory and theme and archetype, and they’ll likely come up with two very different stories with related elements. I actually noticed a story I’m currently working on has A LOT of similar points to Dune, since I’m drawing from some similar concepts (semi-messianic figure, rebellion from the oppressed peoples of the region, etc.), but the overall stories themselves look quite different.
Good points, as a massive WoT fan, i do think Jordan once said he was inspired by Dune, but yeah inspiration is not ripoff otherwise everything would be.
He even has some overlap with Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn since they were both writing redheaded protagonists at a similar time. So both Rand and Simon named their horses Homefinder variants. Which I kind of thought made more sense in Simon's story since he was a bumbling, homesick teenager that looked up to knights until he got sucked into a war, and had all of his dreams haunted by everyone. He starts the series at 14 and it ends on roughly his 17th birthday and he acts like it pretty much the whole time. Rand always seemed comparatively adult.
Same thing with Star Wars. Yeah there are similarities, but that doesn’t mean you can sue them, Frank. Edit: I’m not saying Star Wars is the original thing (it’s not). I’m just saying it was dumb to think about suing.
Yeah nope, those are not trope coincidences. And Frank didnt sue them, he was pissed off, because Dune took a lot from Foundation and admited It, Lucas never admited Dune influences (maybe out of fear).
The sarlack and the sandworm, princes leia and princes alia, tatooine and dune. Etc. Those are not tropes but very specific "references". Clear intertextuality.
People have tried to compare Star Wars and Harry Potter too. Very similar character archetypes and relationships, but that just follows the standard “hero’s journey”. It can be applied to hundreds of books series, movies, even tv shows
I'm afraid Star Wars isn't such an 'original' either. 😂 Tell me if "the end of the Roman Republic" (historical event not fictional) in my very short version sounds familiar. Iulius Kaiser usurped the Roman Empire with his troops. He declared himself with help of his henchmen infinite Dictator (a Roman title that was supposed to be temporary in crisis to enable faster actions and reactions) but kept the senate as powerless dummies after a civil war. He went to far and got killed in a 'rebellion'.
@@mercycunningham2813 I get your point but no one is claiming Star Wars to be original. They’re just saying neither Dune nor Star Wars ripped each other off because, regardless of genre, those tropes and themes have existed for a long time and as you stated, so has historical events.
I think it's a little unfair to equate the Fremen specifically with white guilt. Herbert based them extensively off his real, close friendships with a native American group whose name escapes me at the moment.
@@jahenders his marriage is not open and he was only was with one partner at a time. There is no new partner able to join. He is one man with multiple wives, who rotate as to who he with at anytime. People keep acting like he was dating around and wasn't made by fate to be with women he married. Rand tried to be monogamous for most of the series.
Can you give some other examples of "white guilt" in literature? To be completely honest, it sounds a bit dumb to me, especially out of context. I mean, Arakis is a desert planet, entirely covered in sand. It would make sense for its inhabitants to resemble Arab bendhuins. The Aiel are mainly white, or so I have read online, I never read the wheel of time, so I apologize in advance if I'm wrong
It’s not always about skin color directly, “white guilt” in the joke here is just shorthand for “writers who feel guilty about benefitting from European/American colonialism writing idealized depictions of non-Western European cultures resisting oppression.” Most writers who do this are white people, who (because it was mostly cultures dominated by white people doing the colonialism) are more likely to have big social advantages as a direct or indirect result of their ancestors plundering and/or genociding other cultures (and/or people in their own culture who didn’t socially count as white-see also redlining, as one example).” Hence, white guilt. If you want a _really blatant_ example from film, see also James Cameron’s Avatar.
@@Tortferngatr Yeah but you can't just flat out say that's always the case. A white person can write about non-westerns resisting colonialism without necessarily feeling guilty. Honestly, I don't even see why one should feel guilty for the sins of past generations or benefiting from them. Every single culture on Earth has a history of not being great, to say the least. Don't let other people tell you that you should personally feel bad for the way the history of humanity has played out.
@@imnotacat5299 I'm explaining why joking the Fremen are "white guilt" works--"white writer feels bad about colonialism, writes story to ease their conscience" is a _common enough_ pattern to be amusing, and Dune looks close enough to that pattern to earn a chuckle. I'm not even saying it's a good thing--many if not most "white guilt story" writers are tone-deaf and talk over the people they write about by proxy. > Honestly, I don't even see why one should feel guilty for the sins of past generations or benefiting from them. I think the biggest reasons are as follows: * Most people's ancestors didn't fuck people over in ways that had _global_ implications. There's a scope and degree to European and US imperialism and their consequences past and present that makes it feel disingenuous to simply brush off as "everyone's ancestors were bad." * We're often told to be proud of our ancestors and heritage growing up. Realizing that no, they were _not_ worthy of praise can be painful. * Those past generations' sins didn't always take the form of one-off atrocities, thankfully contained to the annals of history. Often they take the form of patterns and cycles that those ancestors set up to _keep_ themselves and those like them on top at everyone else's expense, and to justify continuing to do so. We never _properly_ reckoned with many of those patterns as societies, and they're still active today. Failing to reckon with those patterns and cycles can be seen as tacitly deeming them acceptable. * The descendants of the people our ancestors fucked over are still around, they're still suffering from those same patterns and cycles, and they often want _some_ kind of restitution for the injustice their people went through and are still going through today. It is not uncommon to misinterpret a desire for _society_ to account for past and present fuckups and do better with personally being to blame. I think there's better ways to channel the sense you got your deal at everyone else's expense than feeling sorry for yourself or writing about how you _wish_ things went down back then, but I can see why it happens.
I mean, WoT has quite a few things to say too. The importance of self-love, the evils of nationalism, and the nature of honor are all strong themes in the series. And it actually also touches on the dangers of messianic thinking, just like Dune, through Dragonsworn like Masema and through the destruction that Rand wreaks.
I do like that Rand was a very different person from his legend, and literally a different person than The Dragon. It was when he got too lost in his “grand destiny” that he made his most mistakes. I have a deep fondness for that series that isn’t very objective though 😅
WOT is literally based on premise of “how stressful would it actually be to be the chosen one” whereas Dune has no actual chosen one, Paul’s powers are purely engineered.
Uh oh, looks like you got triggered. "White guilt" as a concept exists regardless of whether or not you think White people have anything to feel guilty for. The "Noble Savage" is a trope for a reason. Same thing with patriarchal fear of women, even if you don't think "women have it that bad". These concepts affect writing and other media and can be explored without getting your jimmies rustled.
It isn’t patriarchy’s fear of organized female power. That’s a weird self-serving and egotistical condescending take on a book whose main criticism is of a man taking power. I swear, some people can’t interpret something without patting themselves on the back.
Also kind of weird cause the two organized female power in those books; The Aes Sedai and the Bene Gesserit are reliant or believed on a man to be a Messiah. At least in TWOT case, some of the Aes Sedai want Rand as a puppet to use against the Dark One. But he took full control of the war just like Paul. As a man reading these big female organization...Kind of counterproductive to have these fantasy female dominated organizations produce its big weapon to be a man. It's been done so many times, I think I'm just bored with it.
The idea of super powerful female organisations STEMS from the patriarchy's fear of them. That doesn't mean that Robert Jordan wrote the Aes Sedai to represent that, but that is where the trope comes from. Use your brain.
I feel like Black Tower feels offended to be left out... Also, in pre-christian believes of Europe woman had more prominent role. Women were priestesses and oracles/mediums that talked to gods in trans and pronounced their will to mortal man. In catholicism women were ousted for this role and even degraded to necessary evil for giving birth and a spawn of the devil that is leading good man to damnation... Only quite recently the situation has improved and some women were allowed to be priestesses in Christianity, specifically in English church
@Diveyl they also married older men at the age of 13... Pagan Europe was extremely backwards and there's a reason Europe became a superpower after Christianity became dominant.
A lot of people dont actually have the reading comprehension to see a trope, so they also dont recognise when plagiarism is right in their face either lol. They base their view entirely on which one they liked more lmao. 😅 😂
Meh, the patriarchy afraid of women makes zero sense for WoT(or at least for 7 books because then I stopped). The entire premise is they are the absolute strongest entity in the world and by working together they are significantly more powerful that any individual male magic user. The dune one revolves around being an organization operating in secret, to gather information covertly, and influence local populations within the context of a religion thing they created. None of those have to do with Patriarchy and all of them have to do with different ways to manipulate power.
Well yes you're correct. She however is a feminist and probably takes anything in literature that is critical of women as some sort of Patriarchal Tyranny. Where as Jordan was showing how power can be maninpulated and corrosive as he did in multiple groups.
Exactly this was such a dumb thing to have said. Bene gesuit are clearly all women purely for the mechanisms of how they manipulate the world and not a commentary on women having organised power. Because if it were what would the complete commentary possibly be? "Organised religion are all evil but screw strong women in particular those are the most evil".
I suspect it was intended as more of a male authors write female organizations in general that way. Though oddly book 7+ is where we start to see that while it's very powerful, they're still just people and organizations of powerful people tend to get corrupted. The counter influence of the black tower shows that it's not limited to the female magic users.
WoT reads like jordan shoved all the arthur myths and irish legends in a blender and then sprinkled some tolkien and greek & norse mythology on top for extra zest and it’s both fun and confusing at times
That's a great way of putting it. And it's not like he HID it at all. Like he literally put King Arthur in the stories as a legendary figure. And there's, of course Galad. But, since time is cyclical and the WoT is set in a far, far, far distant future, that's absolutely ok.
Robert Jordan pulled from a lot of different myths and legends, he also pulled from our own history. Esbet who ruled the whole world is queen elizabeth. Going to the moon in a bird made of fire is the Apollo 11 rocket launch. The “spears that reached around the world” is a reference to the cold war and nuclear armaments.
Don't forget the plethora of Eastern elements. The continent is literally China mirrored. The Dragon image being wingless, the Ying-yang symbol as the Dragons Fang and the Amyrlin Tear. Jordans time in Vietnam and the Far East had major impact.
Nice. The Messianic/prophesied Saviour 'trope' pre-dates the _Bible_ by millennia 🙄 from Mithra, going back to Shed/Horus the Child ... ... in fact the 'Dune,' 'Wheel of Time' argument cited _should_ include 'The Sword of Truth' (Terry Goodkind) series, which also has strong parallels; and _could_ read 'The Bible' is a rip-off of 'The Gilgamesh Epic;' 🙄 (which pre-dates the former by about 2000 years _and_ of which the various authors of the Bible/Torah were well aware.) 'Gilgamesh' _informs_ the 'Bible', but isn't a "rip-off" ... Messianic/Saviour figures turn up most often in the fantasy genre, because it is _most like,_ modern mythology! In between Gilgamesh and Jesus there are so many 'Saviours' - some of whom have very direct parallels to Christ - ages connected to important points in their stories, virgin births, divine parentage, time wandering, (even crucifixion!) - the Buddha, Krishna, Zarathustra etc., etc. Wild examples? 1. *Romulus* Romulus is born of a vestal virgin, which was a priestess of the hearth god Vesta sworn to celibacy. His mother claims that the divine impregnated her, yet this is not believed by the King. Romulus and his twin brother, Remus, are tossed in the river and left for dead. (A “slaughter of the innocents” tale which parallels that of Matthew 2:13-16). Romulus is hailed as the son of god. He is “snatched away to heaven” by a whirlwind (It is assumed that the gods took him), and he makes post mortem appearances. In his work Numa Pompilius, Plutarch records that there was a darkness covering the earth before his death (Just as there was during Jesus’ death according to Mark 15:33). He also states that Romulus is to be know afterwards as ‘Quirinus’; A god which belonged to the Archiac Triad (a “triple deity” similar to the concept of the Trinity). 2. *Dionysus* Dionysus was born of a virgin on December 25 and, as the Holy Child, was placed in a manger. He was a traveling teacher who performed miracles. He “rode in a triumphal procession on an ass.” He was a sacred king killed and eaten in an eucharistic ritual for fecundity and purification. Dionysus rose from the dead on March 25. He was the God of the Vine, and turned water into wine. He was called “King of Kings” and “God of Gods.” He was considered the “Only Begotten Son,” Savior,” “Redeemer,” “Sin Bearer,” Anointed One,” and the “Alpha and Omega.” He was identified with the Ram or Lamb. His sacrificial title of “Dendrites” or “Young Man of the Tree” intimates he was hung on a tree or crucified.¹ The old saying, " There's no such thing as a new idea" has the caveat that 'what's _new_ ' is how it is presented, and whether it makes you think, or feel ... ¹ start with a fascinating page, and sources at listverse.com/2009/04/13/10-christ-like-figures-who-pre-date-jesus/ Which I came across when trying to remember relative 'ages'. Edit: typos
@@MysticOceanDollies I think the doomed/sacrifice aspect is almost indelibly intertwined with that Saviour/Messianic ... archetype ... this is one of those ideas that transcends trope, it has appeared in so many different times and places. Some of the ancient stories certainly informed each other, and the modern writers have thousands of years of (religious) mythology to mine, _while_ putting their own spin on it. I think Herbet was particularly interested in the problems of a messiah, or messianic prophecy, and the messiah-god figures certainly suffer and sacrifice through out the series. (As do Jordan's.) If nothing else, they are separated into sf and fantasy? But if you are going to compare them, you have to throw in "The Sword of Truth" - reluctant, 'hidden' sorcerer king, bedevilled by 3 different 'orders' of magical women ... it's not like the ideas are new, though the treatments are.
Just because the characters don't have white skin does not mean the power structures aren't meant to reflect the real world. It's called an analogy. The Na'vi are not literally native americans, and there are no blue humans with psychic ponytails.
That’s like suggesting the original X-Men comics couldn’t possibly be a civil rights allegory because the mutants were mostly white, or that the Narnia books couldn’t be a Christian allegory because Jesus was not, in fact, a talking lion.
@@normative I still get baffled how modern society forgot what X-men was all about. Like, there is no series that could of been mistaken for what it was... I grew up on Evolution but X-men hasn't changed and if it had in comic form I don't know how they could've changed that narrative. X-men was my first introduction of America's very big unspoken problem only to be taught by daytime television it done and over with (which was massive lie).
Give me any 'original' fantasy book and if I don't know it 30 Minutes and I will tell you exactly from whom they borrowed what. 😂. I'm sorry there is only a finit number of storys that are retoled forever. Authors nowadays won't invent 'the wheel' but they can find new and interesting ways to retell a story.
That’s like saying Harry Potter or Percy Jackson are ripoffs of each other but they’re both based on pre-existing things pjo with Greek and Roman mythology and hp also being a decent amount of Greek mythology
I remember reading Eregon book one a decade and a half ago, there i thought many of his scenes were just straigt copies of scenes from other books (like some are pretty much exact copies from Eye of the World) but in Paolinis defence, sometimes he actually improved on those scenes.
There’s no denying that Aiel were directly inspired by the Fremen, and there’s nothing wrong with that. Though the Aiel don’t have any history of being oppressed, whereas the Fremen definitely do.
Wanderers, or folks of the leaf, or whatever english call that Gypsie like people that travel the world, fix pots and "steal kids", were once one people with Aiel. The latter just refused to be bound by the way and started to defend themselves, but they maintained the "not picking up the sword" attitude.
@@siliciaveerah9327 it was explained in one of the books were Rand or Aviendha had a retrospect of one of their ancestors. Probably Rand, when he went thru Sa'angreal to become a chieftain. Reliving few memories of direct ancestors. It was a memory were there were constant attacks on Aiels, who were former servants of Aes Sedai (servants of servants of all, heh). After the breaking Aiel have had become a wandering people and they were attacked and robbed at every opportunity, and as they sworn to never pick up the sword and not fight others (way of the leaf), they were practically defenceless. Some young ones has banded together and left the community, but they took up the spear and were for a time following the caravan while defending it from behind the shadows. That is how the Aiel of the wasteland came to be. In general that is how it should have occured. If I am mistaken in some part, sorry, it was over a decade when I have read it, and at least 4 years when I have read Memory of Light
Saying that wheel of Time is a dune rip-off seems to be like saying the The Hunger Games is a rip-off of the old dystopian Japanese film, Battle Royale.
I mean, yeah that's pretty much one hundred percent what it is in terms of premise. Most battle royale types are a derivative of that original movie. It's fine to borrow ideas, but pretending you didn't just boils down to not wanting to give credit to the people who wrote what inspired your story.
People forget Robert Jordan spent his whole professional life writing in the genre. WoT was a homage to the genre a love letter to his fans. Younger fans will never understand since most of his influences are out of print for half a century now. Good luck hunting garage sales
Hegel. Herbert inherited a lot from hegel and eastern philosophy. The freemen for example are a deconstruction of idelized orientalism, as they are an utopic society but also blood thirsty barbarians. Even Paul Atreides is the Chosen One and at the same time the Villain. Thats why Dune is a masterpiece. I havent read the Wheel of Time, I dont like crack
I was with you until the lefty babble. I've never heard anyone say dune and wheel of time are even contemporaries much less that WOT was a dune rip off. But i agree, it's not.
The Aiel were quasi-magical, pacifist, ginger-gardeners who worked a race of extradimensional hippy-giants and even larger sentient plant-people to end food scarcity. Then shit went south and their kids became slightly moister, slightly more magical Fremen.
Thank you for this. I think the comparisons of stories being similar can be fun up until people start claiming a story is a rip-off just because of the similarities that can be found in so many stories.
Even if Wheel of Time had inspiration from Dune, so what. Frank was directed inspired by Sabers of Paradise which was about the Russo-Caucasus wars. Writers draw from History all the time. I started reading the Powder Mage books and there are eerie similarities to my novel im writing.
But the Wheel of Time has so many similar tropes to Dune! *gestures at 75% of fantasy fiction being Lord Of The Rings But Not As Good, complete with always being made into trilogies*
Robert Jordan was a noted Dune fan and openly stated that several aspects of WOT were inspired by Dune. But so is like 90% of fantasy and sci-fi somewhere, somehow- it's one of the most successful sci-fi series in history- Jordan was just honest about being inspired by Herbert, unlike most other creators since. I like to think of WOT as a sort of redemption for how dark the Dune series is, as well as Herbert's personal failures. Ifykyk. Robert Jordan was an absolute treasure, and as a fan of both series, I adore you for addressing this. ❤
It's so funny bc RJ actively copped to the fact he was taking a LOT of inspiration from LOTR. It's not like the man ever shied away from claiming his inspirations, so why would he not talk about Dune if he had?
@@40X70N yeah. At the end of the audiobooks, they have an interview with him where he's like "yeah, I kinda thought 'nobody in LOTR would be so gung ho about this journey'"
I love how Americans use Europeans.Half of Europe were colonizers, other half have been colonized. Let's call them one thing based of geographic location, blame them equally! Has same energy as schools blaming both the victim and bully.
Thank you for this video, I now know I'm not alone. Watched the dune movies last weekend and I was like "hold the phone this feels really familiar" and no one else in my social circle knows about either of these books so I couldn't confirm if it was just me being a fantasy heador if they where genuinely similar😂
The fremen weren't based off of white guilt. Herbert based it off of the great Caucasus war of the Russians invading Dagestan and their victory over the Russians. Specifically the book "Sabres of Paradise".
‘They have the same tropes and archetypes’ Yeah, that’s why they’re tropes and archetypes, and not just a plot point or personality. How do you think that works?
The fremen are a militant people whos blind faith is the main contributor to the Jihad (Paul often points out that if he died they’d simply carry out the Jihad in his name) they aren’t exactly idealized
People thinking that Star Wars was a rip-off of Dune, merely demonstrate that being able to read and write is a quite different skill than understanding what one has seen or read.
Its always so frustrating when someone says 'X is a ripoff of Y' because every time it comes up, the Y in the senario is always something that was either hugely influential or not actually that groundbreaking.
The real question is: Did the author of WoT read Dune, love it, then get "inspired" to write a story? Edit: or kind of hate it and decide to write a better story?
It’s always so amazing to me how people can look at a piece of media and not realize that it was influenced by everything that came before it, creativity is an effort on a global scale and everyone is giving everyone else ideas that share and iterate upon themselves eternally, it’s no more a ripoff than the concept of a spaceship is a ripoff of a plane, which ripped off birds, which ripped of dinosaurs, etc.
Ive been on a mission to read influential scifi literature, im always thrilled when i read newer content and see references that i now understand or can see aspects that came from their influences. Its how you build a genre.
