Is The Winnower the Next Big Bad? (The Winnower VS The Witness) | Aztecross Reacts 

You know, this is gonna be a huge moment when Myelin is reacting to Cross reacting to Myelin.

The Winnower / Gardener thing is pretty simple when you think about it. They are two god like beings, the literal incarnations of life and death. One creates and one destroys, neither are inherently evil, they are more like conscious forces of nature. The Traveler and the Veil are their hands within the universe. The points from which their power flows into the universe. The Traveler and the Veil are the changes to the rules that they speak of. The traveler is the force that creates new life, the force that allows things to grow with reckless abandon. The Veil is the Winnower's counter to that, a force that consolidates and stops/stunts/trims the excess growth. Neither the Traveler or the Veil were truly "alive" they were more like programs running a directive but the Gardener and the Winnower were able to influence events in the universe through them as they are the points through which they touch the universe. Now that the Traveler and the Veil have been joined, it may achieve sentience in a more tangible way as it now has the power over creation of the physical world through the light and power over the metaphysical through the power of the dark. The Gardener and the Winnower will now be able to touch the universe through the same point at the same time.

No! The Winnower isn't the next big bad. That just wouldn't make sense based off of what we know about The Winnower. Remember The Winnower is MORE than just Darkness just like The Gardener is more than Light.

I had figured this a long time ago even before learning about the veil and the witnesses origin back during season of arrivals… the voice in the dark isn’t the darkness itself but a entity that uses it

My only thought to add on the matter, is that the winnower and the gardener, before entering the game, were the creators of the universe. Logically speaking then, they existed outside of time itself. So the first knife appearing in the hands of the winnower as he entered the game itself, could've represented the forming of the witness inside of our universe. It further raises the question, if the veil is the conduit of the winnower then could the traveler be the conduit of the gardener rather than the gardener itself?

Definitely think it’s the witness seeing the memories of the winnower at that moment of the creation of himself . The realization of the witnesses purpose. At the they understood the assignment

It’s said that the winnower is neither good nor evil. The witness gave itself “the first knife” name. It never worked or took direct orders from the winnower. The witness just did what it thought was the thing to do (The final shape). That’s where the whole “it carves on its own” is coming from. It’d be interesting to see what bungie does with the winnower now that the witness is gone.

This is basically the plot to the mass effect trilogy

Idk I still feel like the veil is the winnower. And the gardener is the traveler. It looks like the veil used to be attached to the traveler. And through their separation the universe was created, and the vex were born. Who knows though. I think the idea is that the veil, or winnower, unlike the traveler is able to speak to us through our minds. The only reason I sag that is because the veil and the traveler look like they used to be one entity. And the same way we had a portal into the traveler. The veil used to be a permanent entrance in and out of the traveler. As well as wrapping around it. And constantly shaping the garden.

The traveler is just a seed to spread the idea of what the gardener wanted to do. The traveler is the equivalent to the witness, but for the light. In with cross though, I think both are bad. Savathun is the real MVP. Savathun wanting power so that she doesn’t have to follow anyone else, is the right path

I was thinking the first knife is the witness and we have a couple Ore or so before the winnower

so let me see... the witness wants to final shape.. might be to prepare for everything to be unshape by the Winnower? which might be from the concert art from early Destiny ??

thats the whole thing though. combine all into 1. look at prismatic.

If this was officially the end of the light and dark saga why would the next story be about the winnower

So what are the nine in all of this then???

Maybe the traveler is like the witness, a tool for the gardener to create life, as the witness is a tool for death.

well the nacre loretab tells us no, the winnower doesn't feel the need to get involved because it thinks its final shape will happen regardless

Don’t know anything about lore after D1 I’m just here to shoot and punch things

I agree with your theory that the aura emanating from the Traveller was The Winnowers goal because it is balance or as the raid exotic puts it "Harmony" within the game but also the Traveller giving us Prismatic is also the same goal as it is the balance of Light and Dark powers, so both The Gardener and Winnower achieved the same goal in their respected areas, the Light in the Physical of the Universe and the Dark in the Conscious of the Universe so they both arrived at the same Final Shape.

The winnower is the best piece of lore Destiny has as of now. They definitely should continue the unveiling lore why? Because it’s the most relatable lore. Is the Bible real Or is it a myth? Is the devil real or is he made up? It fits with our current era beliefs.

The fact that people actually thought the Unveiling Lore book was written by The Witness and that he was The Winnower simply based on the names used in origin of The Witness cutscene boggles my mind. The whole cutscene itself is proof that The Witness isn't The Winnower and never was. The Winnower also isn't going to be the next major antagonist because it ''technically'' already is. It's a paracausal force that isn't good nor evil. Yet it prefers a Final Shape. It prefers simplicity as opposed to The Gardener's strive for complexity. Similar to The Witness there will be someone else out that seeking something similar which is why we'll always have this game to play. But I highly doubt that The Winnower is going to become directly involved.

So, here's my take on this - the Unveiling lorebook itself explicitly states that the story is a parable (a fictional story designed to relay an underlying message), and also directly states that the gardener and winnower do not exist except as basic fundamental forces, saying they were "as bodiless and inevitable as the primes". The Unveiling lore book was also provided to us by the Witness, but doesn't seem to be written from the Witness' perspective. So, here's the crazy part. I think that the Witness wrote the Unveiling as its way of outlining its ideology to us in a way that we can understand and that echoes our way of thinking. The way the story unfolds feels like it would fit in any religious text out there - the impossible "time before time", the epic battle between gods, etc. Then we have the other parts of the lore book that aren't trying to appeal to the religious elements of our history - things like the chapter on the gene that tells cells to self-destruct not being evil, and how the darkness/winnower is no more evil than that gene is. This seems to appeal to those that wouldn't find a religious text compelling, and instead appeals to the scientific/philosophical parts of the human mind. Unveiling was tailored to these traits that are seemingly specific to humanity because it IS our Books of Sorrow. The Witness provided hive with the book of sorrow, and the idea of the sword logic, but when he talks about it in the final shape, it's with disdain - he specifically calls the sword logic a childish notion and that their obsession with it that ruined the hive. In the same way Unveiling is meant to appeal to our psychology, the books of sorrow and overall idea of the sword logic was the way that the Witness conceptualized its ideology and made it digestible by appealing to pre-existing ideas or the zeitgeist of the Krill, but ended up inadvertently distorting their entire culture well beyond what was intended. All of this is to say, Unveiling is not literal, and was intended to communicate ideology in a way that would have relevance and resonate with humans. I don't think that the Witness was attempting to convey that the Winnower was real when it said it wasn't the Winnower, but the first knife. I think it was trying to explain by referencing the established theology it had given us - it isn't the cosmic force that ends life and brings order, it is the result of conflict between light and dark and was forged from the universe trying to bring order back to itself after the traveler was trying to make it "disordered" by uplifting life beyond what it should naturally be able to achieve.

The witness and the Winnower story is sounding a lot like the biblical story Lucifer being jealous of God’s power and wanting the power of creation himself.

I’ve always had this theory that I don’t believe that the traveler is the gardener. I think that the traveler might be a child or disciple of the gardener

The Witess: "I am but a knif-" My Guardian: Like a butterknife? Used to spread peanut butter on a slice of bread? That's kind of cool. Tell me more! The Witness: Arggggh! That is not what I sai-! (Guardian down)

Tinfoil hat time: I think we, as Guardians, are the Final Shape. With the Darkness infecting the Traveler, we were granted the ability to wield both Light and Dark via Prismatic. With those powers combined, we now have the ultimate say in which areas/locations/species of life get to continue flourishing and which need to be cut down.

If the gardener never cheated in the flower game the Destiny universe would be like our real life universe. Birth - Life - Death….that is the cycle the gardener was sick of, so it made the traveler to allow immortality and advance races, which in turn caused the races to fight over the traveler in an eternal war. The witness was the first knife made by the winnower to rectify this. Calcify what the traveler has done to the multiverse, so that it may all die and return to the normal pattern of the game.

I don’t think the veiled statues are just specific to the Witness. I think it’s a technique like taking (Taken) that is darkness based. Tbh I still don’t think the Traveler is the gardener either! I actually think the Traveler is where the gardener and winnower lived. The fight that led to creation? The Traveler’s light! Lightfall and Final Shape shows that you can enter the Traveler. Once inside it’s a plane of infinite possibilities based in thought. It even reversed the final shape attempt, that was made from inside that shows its scale of reach! I think the Traveler was given life by the Gardener. The 1st part of final shape before we actually entered to get to the other side of the portal? The space before time where they lived! My theory!

The winnower was above the witness and the architect is above the winnower😅

Gardenier is a fickle women who likes to play games, create chaos/life. Winnoer is Male, and represents death and inevitability.

The true Final Shape is what The Traveler will become once its transformation of Light and Darkness is completed, The Final Shape we stopped was The Witnesses interpreation of perfect enrtopy using both light and dark. The Winnowers version of The Final Shape is Light and Darkness being combined not for entropy but harmomy.

ive always thought the Traveler was the First seed, and the Gardener plants it, so the Gardener tells the traveler where and who to nurture and prosper. And the Witness being the first knife, the Winnower uses the witness to cut it away from those begging to be pampered by power and prosperity.

My thoughts are. The traveller is a proxy for the gardener that sits beyond our dimension. The witness was one of the proxies for the winnower. I think we're going to stumble on a planet that is a true cancer verse and then we will have to decide weather we help the traveler spread unchecked life. Or the winnower.

Winnower = meta slave Gardner = build crafter Prove me wrong

18:50 bro aztecross would be such a good pastor in like a church or something lmao

I think good and bad is a simplification. I think it is more about both being antagonistic to one another, and we were set up on the gardeners side. Unchecked growth can mess things up just as much as rampent culling. Based on how transcendence is, i do think they are eventually gonna move us more towards the middle of them as a neutral force wielding forces of nature to maintain the line. But we'll definitely have to wait and see

Plz react to Byfs Salvations Edge impression video next Mr. Cross.

The witness voice in dialogue is top tier 🫡💯one of the best I’ve ever heard

To keep inflection with the Bible. Does this entail that The Witness is an equvalent to Judas? Betraying the Winnower and wanting to be more than just a deciple?

Winnower being the next villain would be stupid, they should just be a god beyond the traveler and witness and basically everything else, just a spectator essentially, seeing if we are worthy to live another day or if they'll just turn to another channel. Plus, I don't want to kill every single god in this game, some should just be beyond our reach no matter what.

I think the traveller uses dark to give the light think about it the light doesn't create anything but the darkness does stasis=ice crystals and strand=tangles and weaving stuff am I on to something?

As we ask the question, about winnower to the witness, is the gardener, using the traveler to commune with us. The same way, the winnower to veil to witness, is it gardener, to travler to guardian are we also first the knives of the gardener.

Can’t believe I watched mylins ad thru crosses video

the winnower is bungie

I think the finale shape, ORIGINALLY, was you do need to put the light and dark together to end the flower game, the possibilities you than think of, or how stuff was written is almost endless I keep thinking writing, deleting different reasons or why, I think the OG reason was to explain you NEED LIGHT AND DARK, you can’t be one side of any coin your whole life or whole story ❤️

Were not 100% sure who's evil or good but so the method of the traveler seems to be "out of one, there will be many" (ex: Gaurdians, "LightBearers") and the Veil seems to be "Out of many, there will be One (ex: The precursor race becoming The Witness, And what Maya Sunderesh attempted to do using The Veil)

Not the "next" big bad. He's THĒ big bad. Remember, the witness said they are the "FIRST" knife. This implies there's other knives 😮 😉

I still have a tiny suspicion that I can't seem to shake, that the Traveller might be Vex. I think that, kinda like the Sol Divisive, The Traveller is a vex construct (or collective of constructs) that chose to connect themselves with a source of paracausal power, being the Gardener, as opposed to the Sol Divisive with the Winnower The Vex have no means of simulating paracausality; it's the one thing in the universe they can't properly account for in their predictions and simulations. I think that the Traveller was meant to be a means of trapping the Gardener's light. We used to understand that the Vex used the Black Garden as a simulator of possibilities and realities. But I believe the Black Garden is the same one mentioned in 'Unveiling', and I believe that the advent of the Winnower and the First Knife is what introduced the Gardener (possibly already encased by the Vex construct, the Traveller, or it was encased after its expulsion) to reality. I think the Gardener is probably encased in its own vex simulation of sorts within the Traveller (i mean, everything around us in the Pale Heart is a simulation that's playing on the consciousness of everyone inside it, thanks to the darkness being introduced to its interior. I think without the darkness, it would probably be a very uniform and dry simulation of sorts, more synonymous with what we see whenever we enter the VexNet, maybe?) It also just screams 'Vex' to me because of that one cutscene with the Traveller's beam. Everything about that cutscene looked Vex-y as hecc About the Flower Game: the Vex might have been created by the Gardener and Winnower in the Flower Game. As alluded to by lore from the past, the radiolaria bled from the Garden (which is one reason why I believe Unveiling talks about the Black Garden) because THEY were the pattern that the Gardener was allowing to grow and complicate itself. Winnower didn't like that and wanted to cut them down. I don't think the Gardener necessarily did it for malicious reasons, I think it was just hopeful something beautiful would grow (or maybe it's not conscious at all and couldn't gauge the consequences of such a step), but instead got the radiolaria/Vex, and the Winnower was like "see? Told you so" When the Winnower and Gardener became 'part of the game', I think that allowed their paracausality to become tangible in the universe, and I think the Vex immediately tried to tame that which created them, because the Light also has the means to destroy. It was a self-preservation move, and so the Traveller was constructed around the Gardener so its paracausality couldn't be harnessed against them I think the Sol Divisive were the ones who pursued the complexity of consciousness (what the darkness offered), while the other Vex pursued the complexity of creation and simulation. The Vex couldn't do either on their own, outside of simulations. I think the Veil is probably a naturally-occuring thing, i dont think it's the antithesis of the Traveller or anything, I just think it's simply a very concentrated naturally-occuring source of darkness, since in the universe of Destiny, both light and dark are natural forces in physics. It acted as a great funnel to channel consciousness, and just like the Gardener, some Vex flooded to that source of paracausality because it was something they couldn't otherwise account for. But the Sol Divisive became worshipful because instead of the potential for material complexity, it offered conscious complexity, maybe. I think the Winnower hates that, too; I definitely doubt the Winnower was ok **at all** about the Vex getting out of hand and spreading as such

Low Key, the Winnower and Gardner remind me of the God of Light and Dark from Rwby. The God of Light created the forces of life, while the God of Darkness created the forces of Death (the Grimm in that universe). Later on, they ended their brotherly feud by creating Humanity as their form of a masterpiece. What's funnier is that you could view Salem as Rwby's version of the Witness.

Not all gifts are good -I.E. Lottery ruing peoples lives Not all death is bad -I.E ending the suffering of an terminally injured creature There is a balance, but who decides?

You know I don’t mind the entity the winnower. Who one day said “My man oryx “ Oh he it has powerful other pieces on the stage. But you know what. Oryx role as the king was played perfectly. The director personally calls you “My man “ That’s funny to me. Imagine talking to the winnower. You’re shooting it or hitting it with light but it does nothing. But they aren’t mad more amused than anything.

Maybe we have to look at the Gardener in the same way as the winnower. Maybe traveler is just a tool that the gardener is using to shape the game and so the winnower had to use the witness as it's tool to shape it in its own way. And because the gardener is wanting to make things grow but never harvested that's why it doesn't speak because it just wants to see what happens by only providing the tools for growth. Almost as if the traveler is like the water for the garden the garden being the D2 universe.

The lore is an accurate description, its transparent, the ship lore proves that. Its not the witness. And the gardener trying to make a new rule because of eveything devolving into one pattern is not bad. its the purpose of light and life, diversity, growth, and change to allow for infinite possibility. But by nature there does have to be a harvester, a shaper, an equal but opposite force to then cull and shape that life

Also The Witness having their own interpretation of The Final Shape was clear if you understand that The Hive had one as well. Sword Logic is a similar concept born from the Darkness. It is their interpretation of The Final Shape. If The Hive were able to do as they pleased and kept going and enforcing Sword Logic then they would keep destroying everything that could be destroyed to show that they have a right to exist. And if in the end nothing but The Hive exists then they would have fulfilled The Winnower's intention for a Final Shape to come to pass.

Two points: The Unveiling lore book can't have been a religious text of the precursor race. It talks about things that are very specific to Earth. Specific genes, specific time periods in the evolution of life. The Winnower is a rule of the universe. We might as well fight against gravity or time. There is no way to truly defeat the Winnower. Even by fighting and beating any enemy sent by it, we would still only be proving it right.

"You cannot tell the knife what to carve." Isn't that exactly what you do when holding a knife? Whoever holds a knife decides how it is used, kinda like how there were good and evil wielders of light, right? Seems like a dumb analogy.

If the Winnower is real then why would we fight it. That's always where a Gaurdians mind goes. IF it's real it's one of the literal creators of the Universe, as axiomatic with existence as it can be. The continued defiance of the Winnower is the underlying principle. We make our own fates beyond the game.

I feel as if they whole point of the final shape supposed to be about us. The Guardian is the final shape and the game that the winnower and the gardener made is US The Guardian. We fused light and dark, THE FINAL SHAPE. and this has never happened in the history of anything. We’re always first with everything. Gardener said it always ends withe the same pattern and the winnower believes life has to earn its existence so it doesnt suffer, we definitely earned our existence and doing so turned us into “the final shape”

What's crazy is we all looked at oryx and believed he'd be a disciple of the witness if the witness existed prior to kings fall. But everything we've found out since TFS seems to be suggesting or at least make me think the entity Oryx communicated with in the deep was actually the winnower and not the witness. Meaning Oryx was more of a second knife than a stout disciple.

I think cross misunderstands what happened. The same shape that kept ending the flower game was guided by the sword logic. So over eons the strongest would always win. Every time. The gardener was sick of its creations constantly being destroyed. So it implemented a new rule. Something that allowed the winner to be in flux.

I know this has nothing to do with anything but thought it was cool to say. That Cayde was the body guard to Mya Sundaresh in one of his previous exo lives before he got to 6… aka Mya sundress when I can’t remember her name lol..

I'm not sure it's even clear that the Gardener and Winnower are "beings" as opposed to simply forces of nature. They might be; but it's not really clear.

Keep in mind that the Unveiling lore book is in the perspective of the Winnower and in that perspective the Flower Game was an endless cycle of the Sword Logic, all things must prove the right to exist through combat, that which is not strong enough to do that should not, and can not be allowed to exist to prevent any meaningless suffering. Every time they played the game it would end with one species ending every other living thing (The Final Shape of the Hive) and this iterated the Gardiner because this pattern made it so no complex species were allowed to survive which is why the Gardiner wanted a new rule, so that species like the Eliksni and Humanity could thrive in our Golden Age where we can make our own choices without needing to be in the endless cycle of kill or be killed. Based on what your point of view is the Gardiner wanted a new rule for us to be able for our society to exist, so why is the Gardiner is the villain in the Unveiling lore book?

Super early theory as to what the Winnower and Gardener really are, why the Traveler and the Witness were created, and what this means for the future. First thing I'm going to throw out is that I think the "game" is literally just the cycle of life. I don't think that the reference of religious texts is for no reason. In my eyes, I currently see the Winnower and the Gardener as God sort of split in two. The Gardener's job is to create life, where the Winnower is essentially Death, and it's job is to take life once it's ran it's course. If the Witness is the First Knife, it's safe to say that it is the tool that the Winnower decided to use against the Gardener. If the Winnower and the Gardener USED to be a fair game, and the Winnower believes in balance, the creation of the "first knife" tells me that the Gardener brought some sort of outside tool into the game. This is how the Gardener cheated. If the Winnower truly believes in balance as it says, it would not go beyond what the Gardener has already done. Hear me out here. I don't think the Traveler is the Winnower. I think the Traveler IS the tool that the Gardener brought into the game. The Traveler is the cheat code. The lore said the Gardener got tired of the same cycle and same method of creating life. What does it do? Create an entity that travels to different civilizations that also creates life by reviving old life. If the Gardener job is to sow, aka create life, and the Winnower reap, aka take away life, then the process of a Ghost choosing and reviving someone to be a guardian can be looked at as the Gardener replanting what has already been reaped, bringing an imbalance to the game. This would create a parallel in the existence of the Traveler and the Witness. Their coexistence restored balance the the game, just like the Winnower wanted. However, if you really think about the Traveler and the Witness, while they are both tools, their literal embodiments and purposes are opposites. They are a dichotomy. The Traveler is one body that creates and spreads life into multiple vessels through the Ghosts. The Witness is several bodies that conformed and combined into one entity, effectively creating a hive mind. The Traveler being a demonstration of the saying "one for all", and Witness being an example of "all for one". The death of the Witness means once again the game is imbalanced. This means that the Winnower is going to find another way to restore the balance and even the odds once more. Whether that is the creation of another tool, or the Winnower itself getting involved, we'll see.

So, the final boss would be a primordial force of the universe/multiverse? You can't though, we've reached a height and can no longer go higher?

If the Winnower is the next antagonist, we wouldn't be killing it since its existence is essentially for the balance of light and dark and whatnot. It's probably going to challenge us and we'd have to defeat it in some way, but not exactly deleting it from existence. Just a thought.... either way it's going to be another long 10 years of potential content going forward.

@10:00. The problem with being “the first knife”. Its rough around the edges, its not perfect. It takes trial and effort. What if we are not looking in the right direction? What if the winnower is The Traveler?

I believe that any of them are bad. They are just neutral, when charged to grow life, other to take it. The Gardener bored of the game, created something to spice things up and on the other side, so does the Winnower. Either of them can and will act directly on the existence. So they use the paracasuality to influence and make the game more unpredictable. We are the pieces of this game and we have now more influence over the game instead of just follow the rules of create, live and die. For them, it's just a game, for us it is survival. It's not necessarily evil... it's just a more interesting game and the pieces have more ...will on their own to prevent the game to finish the same way. And the Traveler and the Veil are the channel for the paracasuality powers from the Gardener and the Winnower. The Witness is just one of the pieces that learned how to control it. I wonder where the Nine fits in this story. What are they, what they represent and what role they play...

The answer is no. We don’t need to meet or fight the Winnower. Because it believes its final shape is inevitable, it’s basically survival of the fittest, all It needs to do is just let nature take its course. Even the lore tab from the new ship confirms that, he won’t get involved, he’ll just sit back and watch it all play out.

If the witness is the knife, he did his job and stabbed the traveler. (getting inside and changing the traveler) Now we have the aura coming from the traveler doing who knows what. What is collecting all that energy being emitted? Seems like maya atm 🤔

The gardener and winnower are eternal. The gardener got bored of a same constant pattern winning the game. The winnower didn’t mind the vex who always seeped into the next universe (garden ) But never the less the two deity’s allowed paracasual power to seep into the new garden. From great salamanders and worms. And for their main pieces… The light took a simple approach creating the traveler as the main representative peace while the dark…. You know it’s the light first but after the light it is the dark.

I don't think the winnower is a thing, its a way of thought. To shape things around it. The witnesses saying said "You call us winnower? we are not, but the first knife clutched in its hand" This goes to say we are not the carver of the universe as a whole, we are not the only ones who wish to cull the "garden", but we are the first to have done so. Atleast the way I see it. Bungie is really weird when it comes to the GODS of the universe.

you're right about gardener btw precursor civilisation wouldn't have found veil if traveller didn't uplift them in the first place. so winnower was right to say introduction of traveller into the universe would lead to creation of dark blights

My thought is, if the Winnower’s philosophy is the sword logic, then are we as guardians ultimately playing into its hand and doing what it wants? We’ve defeated every large force in our solar system and essentially crowned ourselves as the strongest.

Ngl i want a big plot twist. As in the Traveler was the selfish negative entity all along and the Winnower was the onr which gave life and existence a meaning, which is death. The Traveler leaves everytime it selfishly helps civilizations only to get praise whereas the Winnower reminds us that life is meaningful because of a purpose, of an end. If all existed forever then there would be no sense to it. I really hope it turns out like this

The sword logic keeps balance and is the ultimate rule of the universe. The traveler breaks the sword logic’s rules by giving the weak power. The first knife is a tool to cut away the life the traveler has gifted. I believe that this was the witness’s purpose, to go around and destroy those who had been gifted my the traveler but they got too greedy trying to enact the final shape. Now the balance is unfairly weighted in favor of the gardener and the winnower will seek to restore balance which could lead to our destruction.

Crazy theory-This whole story is not about light vs dark its chaos vs order.The gardener with the powers of light represents chaos with the uncontolled growth and the powers of the light and the winnower with the powers of dark represent order and balance. I mean just think about it when the traveler came to earth and made guardian's alot of them went mad with power and called themselves lords, and the disciples of darkness go to worlds the traveler has been and trims the fat so to speak and the ones who survive tend to follow the rules or texts it leaves them. I think it would be cool if this was true and not just a weird theory i came up with because it could mean eventually we join the darkside of the force ( lol ) since as guardian's its our job to protect people which needs a certain amount of order and it could see us destroy the traveler to stop the uncontrolled growth/chaos.

…. The first in every garden the first met by the traveler. We’re always destined to become a follower of the dark. That’s a scary thought to me. The winnower doesn’t need to do anything to create its own traveler like entity. It’s what ever affected in the universe that decides to continue striving as the strongest in its own way. Doesn’t mean you have to kill everything

We might bitch and whine about destiny at times but you have to admit the franchise has 1 of the best lores and history. Sometimes I forget it's a game and think it's actually really part of humanities history hahah..

But that's not really true. The Traveler has spoken to us through prophecy. It does have a way to communicate its just cryptic

Maybe just maybe since the light and dark saga is over bungie can just come out and tell us. Would be nice. I think a lot of people just get lost and confused so they think the story stinks

Confusing when myelin says we have been to the garden. We have not. The black garden is a simulated reality created by the vex of the sol divisive as their interpretation of the true garden.

also I'm pretty sure d3 is where we actually "fight" the winnower not D2

I think the winnower is going to create something else to fight us. Because right now the balance of the game is too far weighed in the gardeners favor with the first knife gone. So in order to balance the game again either the traveler needs to go away or the winnower needs to create another tool. I would bet money that the winnower creates a dark traveler next instead of a single being. Because a dark traveler can do what our traveler does which is grow in power as you gain more guardians/soldiers. The only difference is that the dark traveler would be spreading purpose instead of freedom.

I really hope not, and if they are I truly hope we lose. I'm so sick and tired of the big bad being hyped up so much only to be defeated by the hero. Not to mention that the universe needs the gardener and winnower to function

No one is thinking if we are actually the knife…who knows if we aren’t preventing some kind of different possibility within the flower game

If maya ends up rivaling or even exceeding the witness in power then surely there has to be a raid against her and subsequently another 12 man guardian game mode.

I'm wondering why this is becoming the new thing, a stream reacting to a streamer. Really? Content getting rough eh?

What if it’s backward, the darkness is the gardener. The winnower keeps saying it can’t speak to others and the traveler doesn’t speak and the veil is speaking out to those that reach out.

i think the gardener is good. he wants life to be able to florish. but the winnower is like that annoying sibling who always smashes your sand castle before you can finish it, and that's maybe why the gardener created the traveler. the winnower then created the veil as a response

I think the Witness is the first knife/ sword logic incarnate as the traveler is the first change in the game/ bomb logic.

How do you defeat a concept above the lores of creation? It does not die,It does not live and it exists yet at the same time doesn't exist you cannot touch it,See it,smell it or hear it unless it wants you to the only reason we are not blinked out of existence is because its playing a game with the gardener and the game has its set of rules that it must abide by otherwise it loses the bet so to all you guardians with delusions of grandeur be thankful those rules are in place.

Episode 1s picture on the quest screen has a big bad, it's hand reaching over the guardians. What's that?

The veil is going to wrap those tentacles around the traveler. After a little hentai the traveler is going to come out the psychedelic side looking like that relic we found that myelin mentioned.

Did you even listen to what he said? The gardener seeked the true balance. Before the crewtion of the traveler there was no balance as "the one shape consumed everything else"

We will see a cube floating in space. The traveler and the cube combine to create the circular square. The True final shape.

What if the winnower has more knifes. What if, just like the witness and its disciples the winnowers also has more beings like the witness that somewhat work for it.

Why would the winnower be the next big bad, hes not bad, like the gardener. They are neutral forces

Both the gardener and winnower are gods in a game of fates. Which of the gardeners creation will attain the final shape after the knife cuts away all the weakest creations. Hence like the vex are the final shape of life in the universe

Maybe the witness and the traveler are the tools of the winnower and gardener respectfully?