Is there medical evidence for miracles? Craig Keener, Michael Shermer & Elijah Stephens 

True. And I think Michael Shermer falls into the latter category too many times unfortunately. That being said, I'm glad Justin brings guys like him on the show. It helps fine tune the arguments from the Christians.

@@stealth797 I'm Christian. I think we need people like him to throw his best scepticism at the debate. He makes many fair statements; I also wonder why God doesn't grow limbs back.

@@ProfYaffle Because god doesn't exits only in your fantasy!

@@kyaxar3609 to quote M Shermer, you just don't know for sure. I don't know for sure. I'm going on balance of probabilities. But do you know what, if I'm wrong, I have lost nothing. Life believing in Jesus is pretty wonderful. If you are wrong, then well, you will find out. But if you are sufficiently arrogant to be 100% sure, then I admire you resoluteness, if nothing else. Enjoy the rest of your life

I agree. They re skeptic about everything except their thinking and views its obviouse but they dont realize. Its not skeptisism its just denyisism.

THanks Martian!

as you say, Mozambique, and lots of africa actually, is superstitious and it seems there are huge amount of miracles going on, but never conclusively with decent video , secular doctors testimony? Its amazing as our ability to record events with everyone having 4K portable video recorders on us all the time, exponentially the events dont get recorded less. Spooky that.

​@@jonfromtheuk467 You know what fits the hypothesis quite well. If you insert the fact that God doesn't want to prove himself without a doubt to everyone. Giving room for those who don't want to believe, to not believe. If you take this hypothesis. it makes A LOT of sense why these things aren't recorded or why amputees don't grow arms back on camera. because if they did then there would no longer any room for someone who doesn't want to believe.

@@joshs2986 let me get this straight. He appears all the time in bronze age superstitious Palestine and then sacrifices himself to himself.... then goes on the longest game of hide and seek ever? And that by having truly terrible things happen to his special creatures , its a test to see if they can believe in him? So babies had to get cancer why exactly? thinks of the grieving parents - thats just sick and any deity thats sets up that scenario is a moral thug. Why do extremely good things happen to exceptionally bad people anyhow?

@@joshs2986 spot on

Good points. Even more, "science" is in fact scientific philosophy and is used with reference to physical objects and processes. In fact, scientific philosophy, aka "science" is itself part of the social and cultural world. In fact, as Keener mentions, our foundational epistemology is worth clarifying as modern philosophical scholarship and its diversified subdisciplines, and what are in fact, disciplinary applied epistemologies, or knowledge domains based on phenomena domains. There are Levels of Analysis and Explanation. While there is multi-dimensional complexity, that is in fact clarity when the specifications are made. As such, we are dealing with philosophical truth: logical coherence and correspondence to reality. Thus, it is important to get to specific case studies that are empirical, and tease out the critieria based on details. Marlene Klepees´ 1981 healing of cerebral palsy recorded at Mayo Clinic based on her spiritual-religious testimony of a prayer-vision-church sequence. Elijah Stephens doesn´t use any example limiting himself to his film. Keener has openly shared various cases in other talks of his. The dimensions would include the variables of spiritual-religious participation by any given participant in a healing. Christian Science has practitioners who study a theological approach, and collections of testimonies of church or interested members. Meanwhile, Shermer cites "counterfactuals" that are entirely speculative. Christian Science has testimonies from WWI and WWII. One is of protection against brutal malnutrition in Japanese prison camps. Another is of an arm that was blown off that was healed with bone redeposited. Also, Shermer´s final comment about "amputated limbs" that don´t grow back. "Why doesn´t that happen?" he asks. That´s an extreme case, that is part of a larger analysis. The healing of the wound of an amputation would be more normal. Shermer says he hopes he wakes up in Christian heaven. As Elijah follows up, living like Jesus, responding to Jesus´ instructions to "seek first the Kingdom of Heaven", all requires action.

a good opportunity to demonstrate the existence of miracles could be the complete elimination of cancer as a human disease, not the cure of some particular cases

@@salvadoralvarado8685 One of the great miracles of history is the birth of science and the modern scientific method in l6./17th c Europe. This miracle has resulted in the elimination of many diseases. Only a Christian culture has created the scientific method.

@@lesliecunliffe4450 1) my problem is why if god can cure some particular cases of cancer, why he has not been able to eliminate this human scourge completely 2) do not forget the role of the Ionian philosophers in the creation of scientific thinking

@@salvadoralvarado8685 because if he eliminates all forms of disease and suffering, then this world would be heaven, this would render the entire Christian narrative about sin, death and salvation pointless and nonsensical

His counterargument is that the doctors could have been wrong. He then, at a later point in the discussion, gave an example of his own mother being diagnosed with cancer and the doctors saying that the type of cancer she had could not have spread from her brain to her lungs. However, they were shown to be wrong.

That's an incredibly weak argument when you're talking about a case that was examined by dozens of doctors and published in a scientific journal. It's similar to a flat-earther being presented with solid evidence for the globe and simply responding with "well the scientists could have been wrong".

@@Charismactivism What solid evidence do you have that the women got healed by some god? You got some doctors who can’t explain it. Don’t equate the 2 examples as we have actual evidence that the earth round. The god of the gaps is a bad argument, as you can put any god you want there and is not evidence , just a claim.

@@Charismactivism So we are told a woman got her sight back, the doctors couldn’t explain it, but it was noted that the husband had prayed. So, does the publication in the journal conclude “God, Moses, talking donkeys, floating axe heads and gentle Jesus meek and mild”? I doubt it. It concludes interesting, unusual, unexplained. You could insert ‘prayer’ behind ANY occurrence. e.g. My uncle fell off a ladder and died whilst we were at church, therefore god did it. Catana is right - you’re not possessing clear and conclusive evidence that the cause of the restoration of eyesight is attributed to a ‘mover’ outside of the natural realm. Using your approach you could insert ANYTHING into the gap and not have to justify it. The simple and rational position to adopt is “Wow. Unusual. Incredible. We don’t have an explanation, yet”.

@@GayorgVonTrapp and if a Muslim had prayed would people be happy attributing the miracle to Allah?

You got this on video right?

@@jonfromtheuk467 Video? Sorry, forgot.

@@jonfromtheuk467 that’s a foolish statement. Who lives that way? And this was 2005. And miracles usually have surprised me and I haven’t planned for them to perhaps set up a camera. I relate with a real God Who takes obvious supernatural action sometimes, thankfully, and when He chooses. Wish you knew for yourself, of course.

I wonder why God would remove a bruise but not answer mother's prayers over their sick and starving and dying children. His divine plan im sure.

@@usèr1234-x1o that doesn’t negate the millions of miracles that people have seen; and many more significant ones than a bruise (if you’d dare look it up). Call us all liars if you want. You’re accountable to your creator as we all are. So many other people aren’t just looney or lying, etc. And there are also angels, demons, and a personal, real devil which accounts for much of the evil that people attribute to God in this world. I’ve actually seen angels and demons, interacting with both. Many others have, too. Just like with miracles. But if you want to know for yourself, not heeding others’ accounts, ask God to show you Himself. Just ask, if you can be genuine. Then wait. Care for truth and He should likely respond in a way that suits where you’re at.

What if they prayed to Poseidon and they got healed?

I've been a believer for over 40 years. Prayed for many people for healing. As far as I know only one person was instantly, miraculously healed, and that was when I was in the process of becoming a believer. I prayed for someone with flu. Power shot out of my hands into the person precisely when I said "in the name of Jesus". They were healed instantly. It happened. That simple.

@@curiousgeorge555 Hahahaha….. hahahaha, good one.

@@GeoPePeTto That proves naturalism false 🤭

@@johnnybrave7443 If what I said is true, would that prove naturalism false?

I think this is kind of cynical - God used the power of miracles to give me petrol, but somehow doesn't see the need to use it to, I don't know, FEED STARVING PEOPLE?

@@TheJohannes44 God feeds starving people when they ask Him for help, unless He has a reason not to, that we don't know about. Also, He wants us to feed our starving neighbors, and to teach them how to feed themselves. But more than that, He wants us to teach them about Him, so they know Who to ask for help, in time of any kind of need. And sometimes He helps even when they have no clue who to ask, but reach out to the unknown God who can help. This has happened many times before, as in the case of Samuel Morris, for one. He did not know God, but asked for help, and received it. You can find his story on youtube. He was an African missionary to America, in the 1800's. But their are myriad testimonies like his. I've only touched on the surface, there is so much to know and learn about the Almighty, but hope this helped answer your question.

While he’s busy apparently ensuring you have a magic petrol tank he’s also busy ignoring the prayers of the parents of a child dying of cancer. Miraculous indeed.

@@Resenbrink many of those prayers for childhood cancer are answered, too, with a miracle, and many are not. That is where trust comes in.

@@liljade53 there is no such thing as answered prayers

Are you an open minded theist? What would change your mind? A person is sick and people pray for him/her. What possible outcome would make you conclude god doesn't intervene/exist?

So I take it when I can prove that Jesus was not the Messiah spoken of in the Jewish Tanakh you will take your own advice and de-convert from Christianity? Otherwise you are a hypocrite for expecting the same from others that you yourself would never be willing to do.

@@skwozies3083 When will you be able to prove that? When you do please reach out to me.

@@stwoods25 How about right now. First, let us clarify so we can be on the same page as to what we are discussing. The Jews have a very different view of Mashiach (Messiah). This word simply means an anointed person. For example, there are something like 39 uses of this word in Tanakh and I think 36 of those uses are concerning the Priests in Leviticus. All kings were also anointed and as such are also considered Mashiach. It even tells us in Isaiah 45 that Cyrus king of Persia is Mashiach, and again in another place it says that Israel is his Mashiach. What is meant by Mashiach though when I am talking about it is very specific. I am talking about the promised seed of King David which is supposed to rule upon his throne. First off, this was clearly Solomon being discussed here in the promise to David and it was discussing that after Solomon there would be another and then after him another, etc... forever. The Prophecy of Nathan to David in 1 Chronicles 17:11-15 and again in 2 Samuel 7:12-15 was that he will have a Seed (Zara, A physical descendant) who will be of his children and he will build him a house (as Solomon did) and that God would establish his throne (as Solomons was established), etc... In the 2 Samuel version of this prophecy the Word of God to the Prophet tells us what will happen if this Mashiach commits iniquity. I do not think Christians believe Jesus committed iniquity or that their God would wonder whether or not Jesus may possibly commit iniquity. Part of this Prophecy is that David's Throne would always have someone to sit upon it. Hence Solomon was replaced by another, who was in turn replaced by another, etc... However, there is more than just this. There is a concept in Judaism which is that there will be a coming Mashiach from the seed of king David who will usher in the Messianic age. This is the concept Christians are borrowing from in order to make their version of Mashiach. We have only one place to go in order to find out more about said Mashiach, and that one place is the Tanakh (Jewish bible or what you may call the Old Testament). So what are the signs of said Mashiach within Tanakh? And does Jesus fulfill them? First and foremost the most complete Prophecies of this Mashiach is in Ezekiel chapters 37 through 47. What will we see this Mashiach do, what signs are available to see if someone is this Mashiach? We will see during his days the rebuilding of the Jewish temple. It will not be a body as Jesus supposedly said destroy this body and in 3 days I will raise it up again. Rather the specific dimensions of the temple are laid out as a very physical temple. Did Jesus fulfill this? NO, he did not rebuild the Jewish Temple, in fact is was already built in his day. There will be an in gathering of the Exiles as we also see in Ezekiel 37 and Micah 5. Not just in General but all 12 tribes (which 10 of them have been lost to history) Did Jesus fulfill this? NO. We also read in Ezekiel 37 as well as in Daniel 12 the resurrection of the Dead. You say but Jesus did Resurrect. Never mind for a moment I do not believe you on that. That isn't what this is talking about, it is all the dead. Both the righteous as well as the unrighteous. Did Jesus fulfill that? NO, the graves are still full of their dead. The Knowledge of God will fill the entire world and they will no more teach their Neighbor saying "Know the Lord" for they will all know me from the least to the Greatest Isaiah 11:9-10 and in Jeremiah 31:34. Did Jesus fulfill this? No, on the contrary Christians preach every Sunday about knowing the Lord. There will be no more war and only Peace. Isaiah 2:1-4. Did Jesus Fulfill this? No, the world is still having war. You may claim that he will fulfill these things at a second coming but that is an admission that he did not fulfill them. There is not a single Prophecy of Mashiach that Yeshua fulfilled. Not one. There are many sections of Scripture that Christians claim Jesus fulfilled. Go back to Tanakh and read them. They are almost Never a Prophecy of Mashiach but are rather taken out of context and made to say something the text never explicitly says. For example Isaiah 7 is a Prophecy to Ahaz about the war and the Prophetess (Isaiah's wife) will have a child and give him names which mean that God is with Judah just as the prophet Hosea had a Prostitute as a wife and gives her children names that God is against Israel. It has nothing to do with a Mashiach at all let alone that said Mashiach would be born of a virgin. Not only does this word not mean a virgin but Isaiah's wife had already had a child in verse 3 of that chapter so it clearly wasn't talking about a virgin. Oh but my Septuagint uses the word Parthenos which means virgin. Sure it usually does mean that. However, in Genesis we see the Greek Septuagint use that same word Parthenos to describe Dinah after she was sexually assaulted. Plus this section isn't written in Greek so we should go to what the Hebrew says. Next, we see in Proverbs 30:19-20 that this Almah is not meaning a virgin and has nothing to do with that as the subject is a Almah (Maiden) who is an adulterous women. That word Almah is what Christian bibles use to say Jesus was born of a Virgin but here we see she is adulterous. So far, Jesus fulfilled None of the Prophecies of said Mashiach, Christians rip Scripture out of its context and claim it is a prophecy of Mashaich when it clearly is no such thing, they also change words to make it Christological, etc... For me to prove that there is NO prophecy of Yeshua in Tanakh would require me to go through each and every verse which is beyond the scope of this writing. As such, I invite you to bring forth your best example of Prophecy of Jesus in Tanakh and we can dissect it. Prove to me Jesus is Mashiach by showing me one single prophecy. I will leave that in your court. However, I will leave off with another point. He cannot possibly be said Mashiach for 2 major reasons. First, the Problem of Jechoniah. According to Mathews lineage he is a descendant of Jechoniah. We see in Jeremiah 22 that Jechoniah is cursed by the prophet to never have a seed (Zara) to sit upon the throne of David. He never did, rather a son (Ben) of his household took the throne. I believe it was his Brothers Seed if I remember who took the throne instead and the word of God stands as it cursed Jechoniah to never have a seed to sit on Davids throne, If Jesus is Jeconiah's seed he cannot sit on Davids Throne. Hence, Jesus cannot be eligible to be Mashiach. Next, the Mashiach was never described by Torah as to what we are to look for and who it would be and since there is a problem of not being able to judge this matter from the Law then Deuteronomy 17 comes into play. This tells us very clearly that if there come a matter of judgment to hard to judge between where we cannot decide upon then we are to go to the Sages of Israel and hear what they say on the matter. This is how Moshe (Moses) set it up, he set Judges/sages over Israel and they were to operate in his stead. As he was the mouth piece of God so they would be as well operating in the authority of Moses. Jesus himself admits this by saying "The Pharisees sit in the seat of Moses, listen to what they tell you but do not do as they do. He is referencing this section of Deuteronomy. In particular verses 10 through 12 which tells us to do according to all they tell you and all they teach and if you are presumptuous and refuse to do according to their word you are to be put to death. So then did the sages of Israel accept Jesus as Mashiach? NO. According to Torah that is the final answer. If he was not accepted as Mashiach by the sages then that settles it, he wasn't Mashiach. Just as every Prophet of Israel was accepted by the sages as a Prophet. If they were not accepted as a prophet by the Sages then they were not a prophet according to Torah. It didn't matter if a person performed miracles as Deuteronomy 13 addresses that problem. Neither would Miracles be a sign of Mashiach as there is no such prophecy that Mashiach would perform miracles. So Jesus not only fulfilled no prophecies of Mashiach, he cannot be eligible to be Mashiach, and the only sections of Scripture used to say he was are entirely ripped out of context and had words changed to try and make Jesus fit the role. So please bring your best example of a Prophecy of Mashiach that Yeshua fulfills so we can study it and see if I am telling the truth. Just one Prophecy at all is all I ask. You won't be able to find one that isn't ripped out of context, is actually talking about Mashiach, doesn't change words to try and force Jesus into it, etc... The reason you won't find it is because it doesn't exist. Jesus is not nor can he be the Mashiach. But please prove me wrong.

You don’t seem to understand what scepticism means.

You are the one categorizing it as reward on demand. It is often not on demand, but progressive. And it is not reward, as in a recompense for goodness or merit. Miracles are manifestations of the grace and goodness of God, not our own.

@@dumbidolsI would say that your interpretation is more in line with classical theology but it is not the interpretation propagated by many religious leaders. According to such, miracles have a strong causal relationship to prayer or at least to faith. On the other hand, if they have no causal relationship to human actions, then why should they attributed to God and not considered as simply stochastic natural events yet uniterpreted by human understanding?

Do miracles occur without prayer?

ex atheist? well he was born in 1960 and by the time he was 22 he had a BA from central Bible college - so given that BA's normally take 4 years he could only be classed as an adult for a very short period of time yes? Given the vast amount of theologians take up the subject to bolster their apologetics, I am somewhat skeptical of the" I used to be an atheist, but God changed me" . Plays well with the narrative though......

Randy Clark also a good source

@@Ryahan y

According to your psychologist friend.........🤗

I have a book that describes how Harry Potter defeated Voldemort. ;-)

Do you still maintain contact with him? I'm writing a book on miracles and he seems like a useful primary source

Just read it. WOW! I will say that Shermer is one of the few skeptics I have a great deal of respect for. He isn't just some naturalistic dogmatic grifter. He is open-minded, polite, patient, and a decent person.

Unfortunately, I think you will find that the majority of skeptic s won't do that. They will just bypass your comments sadly.

Right on brother! The amount of mental gymnastics you have to do to make any of this stuff makes sense is just absurd It's like we I know how the moon orbits the earth. You can always imagine there are angels inside the moon guiding it exactly in accordance with Newtonian mechanics, but there is no need for such a theory and we don't take such an idea seriously because it makes no sense with everything we know about the universe It's the same with any of this stuff. We have mountains upon mountains of facts for how biological organisms behave and function. To think there is some Divine magical intervention is just absurd given everything we know about reality The obvious question would be as you suggested... why is it so random and seldom. I mean do we think that Santa Claus is real or that the Easter Bunny is real or saying some sort of simple prayer or chant really changes fabric of the universe or the fabric of biology It's obvious just wishful thinking and an emotional appeal for our memory of Mommy and Daddy Anyway I think you pretty much nailed it with showing how absurd it is, in its arbitrary selectiveness

You know this how???? You have spoken to and heard from EVERY 'religious person' on their specific views??? Of those millions of children who die every year, you know how many do and don't claim to recover via divine intervention how???? You have a case by case database that informs your opinions? You are, at best, projecting. You are also making a lot of assumptions and claiming to have knowledge that only an all knowing Mind could possibly possess...are you God? There's times that some recover and some don't, but, for you to claim to KNOW that it is Randi or handpicked is giving your self a lot more credit than you deserve. Explain to us why you assume that your observations are impeccable, and that you are able to determine, why or why not someone dies, or lives, that excludes the possibility that there's any number of very real scenarios, sets of circumstances, variables and possibilities that may be above your finite capacity that may not be privy to. Demonstrate your conclusions, empirically, one by one. I'll make it easier for you... just examine 40 million of these events, not all of them. You will not accept if I say that I DON'T KNOW WHY GOD SEEMS be, as you say, 'random', so, I'll hold you to the same standard. I don't know won't cut it.

Some religious people can still believe that miracles happen even to people who don't share their faith. For example some Christians might believe that God loves everyone regardless of their beliefs and can perform miracles for them in order to reach them. Others might believe that those miracles are the work of Satan who wants to lead people away from the true faith which will eventually lead them to hell. But yes, they will still interpret these miracles through the lens of their religion/faith.

​@@SurenEnfiajyan I have no doubt that some religious people think that way, but I was clearly referring to miracle claims that are attributed to a specific religion or deity.

This may be asking too much, but I assume you are capable. Can you extrapolate your question 100 meters outside your conceptual box? What questions arise at each distance from your question, and what is the answer to each? Then, what do you think?

There's nothing wrong with not knowing the answer. I don't know opens the door to the possibility of knowledge in the future. Claiming a miracle doesn't answer anything. It's just a superstitious way of saying.. I don't know.

If you claim that naturalism is true, as Shermer does, you are in fact saying that you know for certain that nothing supernatural happens. That's why when Shermer is confronted with cases that multiple physicians and scientists have confirmed the validity of, he still claims that it needs further inspection. He is very dogmatic in his naturalism.

@@Charismactivism amputees! Seriously, miraculously transform an amputated stump into a fully functioning limb again and both Shermer and I would be convinced of miracles. But has this happened? No. Instead we get claims of healed blindness which proves nothing other than doctors who claim that there could never be sight again were wrong. Claims like this do not prove miracles. They just expose human fallibilities. Shermer is not closed minded as many in the comments have suggested. There are just way better naturalist explanations to explain these miracle claims.

The case of the woman who could see again after twelve years of blindness due to macular degeneration is equally as naturally impossible as a limb growing out. It's physically impossible, yet it happened. And no, it's not a mistake by the doctors. Clearly you have neither watched the Send Proof documentary, nor read the scientific article which this cure was documented in. Look it up, the article is called Case report of instantaneous resolution of juvenile macular degeneration blindness after proximal intercessory prayer.

@@Charismactivism no it is not the same. Macular degeneration can be misdiagnosed and frequently is. A missing limb cannot be misdiagnosed. It is either there or it isn't. Why do miracle claims have to be so ambiguous?Demonstrate the miraculous return of a limb and this debate ends.

How do you know there was a supernatural/divine intervention?

@@camilobriceno8212 Right? It always worries me when I see people like “oh yeah, miracles happen all the time” and then say some dumb shit like “just look at the sunrise” like wtf

@@NeedSomeNuance I'm a third (at least) generation atheist and I consider consciousness a miracle, not a miracle from God of course, but still a miracle.

@@fukpoeslaw3613 It depends on how we are defining the word miracle. As per the definition I am using (A miracle being a violation of the laws of nature) it is most certainly not a miracle.

@@skwozies3083 ha ha, yes, I just use my feels

That’s the point of miracles, they don’t always happen.

More accurately, its the application of meaning that the advocate is unable demonstrate as true that draws the "bewilderment" of atheists. Applying meaning that one can't demonstrate to be true can be done by anyone.

@@madmax2976 What is an example of meaning that is demonstrably true?

@@06rtm Hmm. A toaster that toasts bread. A car that gets you to a place you want to go. A nurse that takes care of patients. But if the actual point is that no meaning can be demonstrated to be true, well, there we go.

If dead people start to raise, food start multiplying, people can fly and the divine chariot appears in heaven like is described by Ezekiel the atheist would just say "those are just exceptional events, please don't attach any meaning on them" ? Sincerely asking.

@@astrol4b I was thinking something more along the lines of people being healed, the seas parting for Moses. For example, if the story simply stated that the seas parted before Moses, allowing him to cross, rather than God parted the seas so that Moses could cross. Its the same exact story, but the traditional worldview attributes a higher power under the understanding that reality rests in a hierarchy. Jesus is a bit different because he is considered to be God incarnate rather than a regular person experiencing an exceptional occurrence. As for Ezekiels vision, thats something he saw, and was akin to a spiritual vision, whereby he pierced the fractal patterns of reality. Thats something people have happen all the time.

Because it costs a bucket of money to make a documentary, maybe?

Prayer is ridiculous, an omnipotent, omniscient deity who has a plan for everybody would change its mind at the suggestion of a mere human? 🙄

Smith Wigglesworth had numerous limbs regenerate through his prayers. I personally know two missionaries, one to Mexico, one to India, whose prayers caused legs to grow back.

@@dumbidols That’s quite a claim. Do you have photos before and after? Do you have affidavits from teachers, doctors, everyone that knew the persons healed that indicate they were honestly lacking a limb? Or are these just stories you heard?

Lourdes and Akita in Japan offer the most well balanced perspective on it because Lourdes appoint several Atheist and Catholic Doctors to look at the cases. The vast majority are dismissed. If I remember correctly there are not many that have been described as miraculous. If you are really serious and objective on this subject? Then the proof is whether you are prepared to go to these two places yourself. Spend time at these places and only only then can you make a better evaluation. God speaks to the heart ultimately, if the person is prepared to open it up

@@chrisoconnor4743 I don’t think I’m the one failing to properly assess the evidence. You seem to have entirely missed the point.

@@davethebrahman9870 On the contrary Dave. I'm simply saying go and contact the Japanese Doctor. If you are serious about the subject, you would go and do that. You would also go and visit the places and spend time at them, which I have done. Remove any prejudices you might have and you'll be able to look at things from a more objective viewpoint. That's what I did. I went from agnostic to Catholicism. Best thing I ever did. It's wonderful.

Who is that and why do you care?

@@lepidoptera9337 she's a religious studies professor from Indiana University who has written one of the most extensive books on the healing effects of Prayer. She was interviewed in the documentary

@@calebjackson6277 So she is an idiot. Why do you care?

It is just a story so it doesn't matter

@@ATOK_ A story can be true, false, or true and false in varying degrees. One can believe a false story, and conversely, reject a true one. Where does your comment fit into this on the basis of it mattering at all?

@@ocvlvs b

depending in what country you in, say the USA, the vast majority people will be religious - its a pretty safe bet to say such things, but again , its just a story, no names etc

@@jonfromtheuk467 You are right too. Especially these days.

Excellent question. That is my issue

Yes, Keener has a chapter about miracles in other cultures in his two-volume work _"Miracles"_ . I do not know whether they talk about it in the documentary, since I have not watched the documentary.

Appreciate your reply. Interesting. If medical anomalies take place within random circumstances then it appears we're back at square one.

@@Patrick77487 but isn't it possible that God, in his mercy and for his glory, may choose to heal one who is not a follower of Jesus? He certainly did that in the New Testament.

Can you list some specific places that you’re talking about?

​@@julie569 Mozambique was mentioned in the dialogue. Also - in my own community, we are more likely to see apparently miraculous healings when we pray for people on the street while evangelising, than when we pray for people in the church. I have heard others with similar stories, but I haven't been taking notes. That's why I wrote, "it seems". Hope that helps.

in general far away places & long gone times

Coz its all BS.

Great point. "Hope" sells. Much like the magic traveling potion salesman in the old pioneer days. They set up a scam healing, and then sell their worthless potions to the townspeople.

How would the virgin birth or resurrection of Lazarus fit into that explanation? Or the talking ass? I'm a believer, but I struggle with this issue.

@@littleboots9800 I am a non-believer and that is exactly the correct question to be asking.

@@skwozies3083 Yeah, to me a miracle by definition is the direct intervention by God into the laws of nature to bring about an event that could not be possible by natural means. (Also the dictionary definition.) The miracles of the gospel and the OT fit that definition. Do I believe God heals or brings about favourable situations today? Yes, I do, but I believe he does it through natural means. It appears to me that the miracles are over, for now. They had a purpose and fulfilled it.

@@littleboots9800 I would agree with your definition of a Miracle. I think that L.V. Mises put it best when he says "The best elucidation of the idea of inexorable regularity in the concatenation of natural phenomena is provided by the concept of miracles. A miraculous event is something that simply cannot happen in the normal course of world affairs as we know it, because its happening could not be accounted for by the laws of nature. If nonetheless the occurrence of such an event is reported, two different interpretations are provided, both of which, however, fully agree in taking for granted the inexorability of the laws of nature. The devout say: "This could not happen in the normal course of affairs. It came to pass only because the Lord has the power to act without being restricted by the laws of nature. It is an event incomprehensible and inexplicable for the human mind, it is a mystery, a miracle." The rationalists say: "It could not happen and therefore it did not happen. The reporters were either liars or victims of a delusion." If the concept of laws of nature were to mean not inexorable regularity but merely frequent connection, the notion of miracles would never have been conceived. One would simply say: A is frequently followed by B, but in some instances this effect failed to appear. Nobody says that stones thrown into the air at an angle of 45 degrees will frequently fall down to earth or that a human limb lost by an accident frequently does not grow again. All our thinking and all our actions are guided by the knowledge that in such cases we are not faced with frequent repetition of the same connection, but with regular repetition."

@@skwozies3083 yes, perfectly laid out.

"Try it maybe he chooses YOU the next time for the heavenly lottery" God's answer: Take a number/wait in line. You think you're the only one praying to win a lottery?

No. It's about miracles.

I disagree. Miracles are beneficial to the recipient. I cannot explain why one person receives a miracle, another does not.

@Darren Thanks for your reply Darren, .. lots of wonderful words there, but absolutely nothing about why God refuses to heal people with severe dementia, which was the main thrust of my comment. What thoughts go thru your mind when you focus on the subject of this video, and the subject of my comment.. there's zero credible evidence of any supernatural miracles to the best of my knowledge. ( something which defies the laws of nature/physics) eg: If I were to meet you for coffee, and you were able to float in mid air, .. i would seriously consider whatever you had to say.

@Darren And what about dementia?

@@bonnie43uk The greatest miracle has already happened... God created the universe from nothing (The big bang). If God can do that, other miracles are easy. Why doesn't God do miracles all the time? Simple... God wants a genuine response. Love inherently involves choice. God performing miracles every 2 minutes doesn't really protect your free will choice to accept or reject him does it?

@@stevenrivard9246 There is so much in your statement that can be picked apart. My ‘genuine response’ to the notion of a ‘god’, considering he/she/it is indistinguishable from one that doesn’t exist when it comes to suffering, is that any claim as to the existence of such an entity is demonstrably unfounded. The stuff about free will is a distraction, in truth utter garbage that doesn’t belong in the conversation.

@@stevenrivard9246 “God performing miracles every 2 minutes doesn’t really protect your free will choice to accept or reject him does it” Oh yes it does. If one gets swept away to ones death by a tsunami caused by an earthquake emanating from movement of tectonic plates, and ‘god’ doesn’t stop it, that very much affects one’s free will options in respect to accepting or rejecting said deity. Same with falling into the hands of a sexually deviant priest at a young age. The inaction of the one that could intervene to stop it has a very direct affect on the outcome. Any human possessing a similar decisive power to intervene, and doesn’t do so, would be hauled over the coals for not helping. But ‘god’ is excused.

that might work for hallucinations, but i dont think me magically wanting my disease to be miraculously healed is a bi-product of human cognitive dissonance.

Such s crock of horse shit lmao

"If you are really serious and objective on this subject? Then the proof is whether you are prepared to go to such places yourself." I have personally witnessed things that I doubt happened. Alternatively I also believe plenty of things that I've never witnessed. Seeing these events first hand isn't ideally the sort of evidence I'd be looking for. And it's way short of what I would consider "proof". You suggest I gamble what I consider to be valuable time (and resources) on this search. You think the payoff is likely and worthwhile. I too think the payoff is worthwhile ... but I'm very doubtful about the chances of "winning" it.

@@wishlist011 As with all things in life it boils down to what are our priorities. So yes, I have been to these places and a lot of others aswell and spent a lot of my time at some of them. Surely the existence of God should be TOP of our priorities. So I've been exploring it seriously all of my adult life. My search took me from being agnostic, to Catholicism. How I feel and what my preferences were before hand were utterly irrelevant. That was an important factor, removing any prejudices.

@@chrisoconnor4743 "Surely the existence of God should be TOP of our priorities." I think that depends on one or two things. If God exists and I can be sure of discovering that fact then I think I would put it top of the list (depending a little on what sort of God it is). But if God doesn't exist or I might very well not learn the answer even for searching then the priority isn't so high for me. While I'm genuinely interested in the question, it becomes a relatively low priority when I'm seriously doubtful of there being a definitive answer to be found. Or at least one that I would consider compelling. There are plenty of people better qualified and smarter than me who have done the legwork already. Some become believers and some don't. They feed back condensed aspects of their findings to the likes of me so I don't have to tread over the same ground they have. And, given what they all tell me, I have the strong sense that if I did go down those paths I'd be amongst the ones still not convinced and I'd be left with all the same doubts and unanswered questions I have now ... and that time I would have spent looking - I don't currently believe it's unlimited or that I could get any of it back. That's a very big factor in what lengths I'd be willing to go to for a "payoff" that isn't guaranteed.

the Christians just went Home, Russel miraculously survived to encourage him to repent and return his wicked ways... simple 🤷‍♂️

@@fukpoeslaw3613 this whole presentation is attempting to show proof that the Christian God does miracles. You conveniently ignore any data that shows a counter example. Obviously the documentary on the “power of atheism” is a joke but it exposes the flawed case study methodology that the Global Medical Research Institute use.

@@johnn6668 well, one can always bend it in favor of our Lord and Miracle Maker.🤷‍♂️ 🤭 jk

🤭

dont forget the original stories were told by three 7 year old children - seems legit.

Then explain why the person with the highest iq is a thist

Yes your statement is on point. A conundrum.

You have hit the nail on the head. Even if God starts sending SMS to each and every human being, man in excercise of his freewill will doubt the veracity of it. Sine the human nature is basically corrupted, God will be ignored.

IKR.

Fatima was completely real. You can test it for yourself. Stare into the sun for half an hour and tell me that god isn't showing you colorful dancing circles. ;-)

A bit childish.

@@grahamwilliams8871 Yes, religion is very childish.

Come on Kieron, we shouldn't even exist, the fact anything exists is beyond explanation.

@@grahamwilliams8871 Agreed. That’s my whole point, if it’s beyond explanation then don’t try to explain it.

@@kieronbrowne7881 Perhaps I should have said human explanation. It is amazing though Kieron that we exist. Is it fair to call it miraculous?

It really depends on one's perspective of life. Miracles surround us everyday, if we choose to look for them.

@@waitstill7091 not in the supernatural sense. That’s what this discussion is talking about.

@@waitstill7091 what constitutes a miracle for you? Is it not a suspension of the natural world?

How do you know that?

So you are really saying miracles can only happen to things that can happen? In that case they won't be violating any natural order and thus cant be described at miracles. What NATURAL processes does god use to cure cancer? the resurrection of Jesus, turning water into wine, make pigs go mad, stop the sun in the sky, have the graves open and the spirits walk into town from MATT?

So miraculous healings are not supernatural or what?