Is This Abuse? Bioactive vs Minimalistic Enclosures 

Ima send u a pic of a giant tank I have on Instagram only way I can find a way to send you a pic lol tell me what u think im wanting to fix it up for my bp but I gotta do stuff to is b4 she could ever go in ir

This was perfect! I keep going back and forth on this. I want to start a cave gecko project but to set each up in its own bioactive is $$$$$$. Eventually I have mine in bioactives, but while they're growing/breeding, minimalistic just makes more sense.

I think are a few things to take into consideration when getting any pet. One is housing. I fully believe in replicating their natural environment with real plants and such. So I am for bio active enclosures. However if the risks for the animal are higher to keep them that way, then I will go for what's best for the animal. It's about them, not you!

I want you to know i love you and people like you

100% agree. I don't think the enrichement always has to be bioactive, you can try to replicate with other things. And breeder animals deserve a decent life too. Reptiles and humans can't either communicate well (like show if they're unhappy, uncomfortable, bored and even sick sometimes) so they're really at our mercy.

10000%

Exactly. And there are many ways of being able to provide enrichment that don't need to be all about just the enclosure or putting in pretty plants. Sometimes, we may be providing enrichment without even realizing we're doing it. Taking animals out for regular and routine maintainance and interaction? Bringing them to schools and other educational outreach events in the community? That's all enrichment! Both for us, and for the animal(s). At the end of the day, do whatever makes you feel better about keeping said animal.

I really agree. When I see stacks and stacks of Tupperware I can't imagine those animals have quality lives at all.

You are so kind!

They don't have the capacity to understand that love though, so even that's for ourselves. Loving something for the sake of your own pleasure, hoping it'll form an attachment, etc. Keepers should keep the animal enriched, try to replicate their environment to the best of your ability and in a way that doesn't chance too much harm. Pet traders should do right by the animal as much as can be expected, if that means minimalism then that's that. Just no arborials in flat racks with no room to climb, we can all agree to that I think, even breeders.

@@appalachiabrauchfrau I understand what you mean, by love I meant care and attention, something they could never find in the wild! But regardless of our feelings the animals needs should always be met, anything less would be abuse and unfair to the animals. Even as intelligent as they are, reptiles or any animal does not always understand they are pets, and I think that adjustment is easier on them in a bioactive.

I think it's very important that the reptiles needs are set and that we try to replicate how they live in the nature because we specially have difficulties communicating with teptiles, they can't tell and often show us if they're unhappy. Maybe some reptiles don't have that much avareness or needs but still it's hard for us to know. Like cats and dogs can tell us much better if they're bored, unhappy, in pain, sick, hungry.

@@appalachiabrauchfrau They can still be attached to us though cant they?

Good point!

same! and some countries say forbid you to keep snakes in racks (other than young snakes who will be sold)

I wouldn't call this anthropomorphisizing. All vertebrates, even some types of inverts dare I say, do best with mental enrichment in their life. If a species is supposed to climb as a part of its lifestyle, it should be allowed to. All animals should be able to exhibit all of their natural behaviors in their enclosure. I understand the benefit of racks, especially for breeders who have a ton of babies to be sold but long-term adults should have all of their species' needs met. Good air circulation is a very basic requirement and is by no means only important to humans lol

@@dagmar0904 Yes, rack systems are illegal in my counrty and people come to check on you sometimes to see if you're keeping your reptiles correrctly.

@@tiredmedusa77 Damn, what country? (If you don't mind asking.)

sounds about right

Same here, can't even keep fake plants in her enclosure without her trying to eat or destroy them.. you'd think she'd figure out they're plastic but it's just not worth the risk. She gets rocks and branches and hammocks to climb on instead

​@thatonegrill6070 she probably won't use the hammock

@@Breviparopus I have several in there designed to help her get around since she's in a 160 gal, some she uses more than others.

@@thatonegrill6070 that's interesting. I thought most don't use them

those beardies I tell ye, plants, ears, anything but their salads! haha

@@WickensWickedReptiles 😂😂😂

@@WickensWickedReptiles Speaking of, have you considered a video about getting bearded dragons to eat their salad? Mine is two months old; absolutely refuses to touch anything green or fruity. Must be a bug, and it has to move on its own or he won’t do it.

@@WickensWickedReptiles I must have a magical beardie! She loves her salads and will stuff herself on greens before going for buggies. Unless she's being offered superworms then it's definitely the worms.

I mean, you did name him after the god of mischief 😂

well said!

for sure!

same!

For sure.

Totally agree!

I think if you're a breeder you should at least try to keep the adult breeding animals in bit better conditions as they're sort of your animals and responsibility. The babies who are going to go to new owners don't of course need that much space and enrichement, just simple basis needs.

then they shouldnt be breeders if their animals are suffering just bc its cheaper ;)

@Emma brown I specifically said as long as the animals needs are being met. That by nature implies the animal is not suffering.

Thank you so much!

Wild snakes don't have the whole world, they have microhabitats, some of these very small in area, and they can have many dangers. They do not put themselves out there all day to be looked at. They seek security much of the time. While any enclosure needs to be fair - give the animal enough room, proper humidity range, proper temperature range - the naturalistic looking part of it is not all that necessary. The functional part is, but natural-looking is not. It does not hurt, it just does not matter that much. When a person keeps various snakes in various setups, that person will start to see certain behaviors that the snakes do regardless of how natural something looks. All that said, I think it is great that some folks go all-out with enclosures. And when they finally show that their snakes in particular are better for it, I will be all in. I just have not seen that yet.

I strongly recommend switching to a suitable loose substrate ASAP, digging/burrowing enrichment is extremely beneficial for both species. A soil/playsand or soil/sand/clay mix is ideal.

well said

Wonderful comment as a breeder I appreciated this perspective a lot

I swear there's a disconnect for some people who in one breath say, "buy your reptiles from reputable, ethical breeders" and in the next breath continue, "the setups that those reputable, ethical breeders use to produce their animals is by nature unethical and abusive." I'm limiting my collection to 7 or 8 animals total because that's what I can manage alone. My species interests are also pretty niche, which leads me to smaller scale breeders who are better equipped to meet or exceed my standards for rack husbandry with their smaller collections.

As someone who was a former employee at NERD all I will say is that I honestly have to disagree slightly, the way they keep almost every single one of the 6-8,000 snakes they have is not the standard I think the community should follow. The place is practically a puppy mill and a lot of the animals go without water, or proper maintenance for months. They have 16,000 or 17,000 animals under that roof and have maybe and I mean MAYBE 10 employees. Those people are incredibly under payed a ton of them drive long distances to be there and often times they will go well over 12 hours a day but you do not get overtime and if you miss a punch you will often times not get paid for the day at all. Enough about personal issues but imagine trying to take care of over 1,000 animals a day by yourself. A ton of that building gets not only neglected but they would be euthanized in masses by stomping on their heads or being frozen in the freezer. Not to mention some of the purely incompetent staff and or staff training to the point where I’ve seen some pretty gnarly injuries that needed stitches. But I can remember a day incredibly vividly while working with ball pythons I witnessed two employees who were instructed to take 4 ball pythons with ri’s place them in small bins tape them shut and throw it in a freezer in the back of the building. That place all though they deserve a lot of credit because they do a lot and Kevin is a genius but they are now only it for money, they have become an utter clown show. But honestly believe me or don’t maybe 10 or 15 years down the road the truth will come out completely but till then my identity will remain a secret so my face doesn’t become among the missing in the herptecultre community (no they won’t kill me but if I came with my real name and people figured out who I was I would literally be denied an opinion in the community)

If you can't afford to keep an animal well, don't have them. Racks are fine for temporary short term enclosures like hatchlings, but to lock animals in dark boxes their whole lives, that's abuse. This video and others are making excuses. They don't have to go bioactive, but you need to provide animals with a life worth living

for sure!

Where would you suggest buying the type of bins you suggested? Such as the 40 gallon bins for around $20? But even just good places to look for bins in general.

@@ExoticCritter Walmart!! Or even dollar general! Just look for plastic storage bins with a clear lid and locks that hold the door down enough where you can't slip all your fingers through the crack. Amazon also have them, but they often come cracked.

that makes sense!

Thank you for this comment, I didn't understand how they were getting lighting and heating. I don't think his racks have lighting or heating at least from what I have seen in newer and older videos also the tubs in general are just to small.

Exactly. Racks do not have to be dungeons. I have one baby boa that prefers a tub - he is much less defensive and his willingness to feed went from 0 to 100 just a few days after being moved to a tub. I can keep the humidity in there perfect with Babi-Chip substrate, and I can keep the temps nice and stable in the back. It would be silly to deny that snake the enclosure that he does best in just because it is a rack. I have a sub-adult - same thing. Loves the tub. And I have another that does great in a big Vision cage. No reason to force one method on all.

Can't wait! for real, amazing stuff bro!

That's the plan!

Coming soon!

Don’t snakes like ball pythons prefer dark enclosed spaces in the first place? Most of the time if you give the snake a hide they’ll spend most of their time in it.

@@mannyms6678 yes, but they should also be given the opportunity to bask, climb explore and get enrichment.

@@laurensvdd1666 agreed

The animal can be taken out and allowed to explore outside the tub, weather permitting, etc. In fact, choice-based handling outside the cage does wonders. In that case, a rack can be just fine. In fact, it probably mimics wild activity time lengths where active time is roughly 10% and hide time is 90%. But yes, just stuck in the tub 100%, well, clearly limits the snake's usage of its brain. I think racks + handling can be the best setup for some species. Lets face it, a ball python in a 3ft or 4ft cage is still far from the choices it will have to make in the wild. Still super limited. Should still be handled.

well said!

awesome!

Glad to hear it, thanks for watching!

I love em!

thank you so much!

So much this! People don't understand nutrient cycles and don't realise without plants you're just having a waste build up and the substrate eventually becomes toxic due to ammonia and nitrate+nitrite build up. I thought basic biology classes covered this but it seems not.

It’s good that they have good setups. Although overhead heating/lighting is very beneficial for them long term, and that can’t be provided in racks.

Legend!

bingo!

thank you!

Bingo

They will absolutely utilize and benefit from climbing enrichment, they’re semi-arboreal and have been observed climbing in the wild. They definitely don’t hide in caves all the time.

I don't but they are awesome!

it should be good!

thank you!

thanks for watching!

very cool!

Thank you so much 😀

well said

Thank you!

sure thing!

@@WickensWickedReptiles thank you :)

well said !!!

You're the best!

well said

It’s not healthy to deny an animal space to exhibit their normal behavior

@@juliac3933 that can be done with minimalistic enclosures though.

Studies have been proven that animals don't do well in breeder minimalistic setups. They're alive and thats it, quite the depressing life if you ask me.

@@nobody1575 “studies have been proven”? Can you cite these studies?

coming soon!

Coming soon!

thank you!

40gal breeder tanks is commonly recommended for adults from what I remember idk why people would complain now. They’re very cryptic and prefer snug than open spaces. You’d have to modify the top mesh with some foil/plastic etc for the humidity issue, but the bin is superior agree for this issue. just not for viewing wise tho.

I saw SD's racks in person and they are so well done

@@WickensWickedReptiles would love to visit one day, just a few 000 miles in the way! I think if more people took their way of doing things the rack debate would extinguish itself.

THANK YOU for the activist point!!! I don't see a lot of people talk about it, but in this current era of rampant anti-exotics laws it's so important! We cannot simultaneously try to endear reptiles to the public whilst touting "professionals" who keep their reptiles with next to nothing in tubs. These are the people who come up when people go to youtube and type 'ball python', after all.

@@Creekpaw Absolutely agree. I normally do not watch BB for example but found myself watching one on Saturday and his son was trying to remove a retic from an enclosure and behaving like a fool. He was flooding the animals enclosure, clearly causing it stress and rather than leave them alone continued for entertainment purposes. I switched off. This is the sort of thing as you say that comes up when people google 'ball python' which is not the best representation!

thank you!

thanks for watching

you got it!

Throw your Diamonds in the sky *bearded dragon goes flying *

you're awesome!

@@WickensWickedReptiles no u😉

very well said!~

gross

@@WickensWickedReptiles I'll paraphrase but he basically said f you and he doesn't care I'm sure it's still up in RU-vid on his channel

thank you!

nice!

What size would you reccomend since you disagree with most NA youtubers and that is all I see

@@supertacticaldroid1751 I dont technically disagree. Im just following the laws and regulations in place in Sweden and stating that if it works here, why wouldn't it work else where?

@@Arazand oh i misunderstood sorry

@@supertacticaldroid1751 thats ok. I wasnt exactly being clear on that point. :)

Maybe you don't have the money starting out. I'm planning to get a new ball python and I will keep him in a tub for the first 1-1.5 years of his/her life because I unfortunately do not have the budget at this point for 120x60x60 enclosure. I will definitely find the biggest tub I can for the animal and try to make it as hospitable as possible. There's a place for minimalistic enclosures, but you need to do it right and should be temporarily imo, people keep their reptiles in stupid small enclosures, which is unethical.