Is this the WORST Codex Launch of 10th Edition? New Dark Angels Points Do NOT Look Good... 

Luther Strikes again!

That is the typical MO for Space Marines. Unless you are playing GW's favorite Chapters, you are going to have a bad time.

You must of seen the whiteboard in the GW design studio 🤣🤣🤣

Ha Ha DA is getting the BA treatment

What favorite chapters? Maybe the Black Templars. Everyone else is losing stuff ​@@RedCometNurse

Into the dungeon you go.

Ba dum tsh

😫😫😫

ASMODAI

And can't get up

I hate that you're right

lmao truth!

Yeah I can see the next balance slate, they'll make Azrael 220pts or something ridiculous, while at the same time nerfing his stats, taking away the Lion Helm, and making his CP generation once per game. Wouldn't put it past the morons in the rules department.

​@@AnonYmous-ys2if Don't give them ideas

@@AnonYmous-ys2if you insult morons! The rules team is, at best, two lobotomies and a wilted house plant

Kinda like the eldar, but backwards.

tones is sound, tons is weight, and tonnes is also weight if ur a brit bonger

Also lorewise. The codex lore dumps on everything from Son of the Forest.

This your first time???

​@@leonardovegaolmedo5483yeah literally set up the return of an eldar god just to be like oh the last item is in slaneshs home what could have been cool is tie in gulimans return with when the emperor burned nurgles garden is have ishtar escape and have that be the reason the eldar helped being guliman back

Any bets on who will be the last codex to be updated? Eldar anyone?

@@2112pjmguard, 65 on guard!

@@2112pjm The Game Development team knew Eldar would be a problem even before the Index was finalized and STILL released them in that state. Either they ran out of time to get the game mostly balanced, the game dev team has favorites, or they just didn't care.

@@vander34th they aren’t really that bothered about how stuff plays as long as it sells

Gospel. Preach brother.

I played with the codex DA. The army is at least still fun with the inner circle detachment and company of hunters in a non competitive environment (and can do alright in competitive). Admech tho…. I can’t see how GW passed that codex

Good. I've found that competitive play sucks the fun out of the game

​@@zarbonianwhat did you play it against , because l played it against a dozen, or so, different armies and not once did l feel like l was having fun. In fact must of the time it felt like playing space marines only worse. I could take my terminators , play them as BT glafius , if l was crazy enough to repaint them, and the army would still be meh, but it would work.

Chicken walker and Breacher spam are pretty strong, just gotta pay 60 bucks a model for that.

Oooooh... I actually quite like this idea. Just gotta figure out who the queen / Bishops will be. Knights will be knights, Rooks will be termies and pawns.. probably the watchers, could do Inner Circle I suppose. Opposition... Nidz! The board squares will have to be fairly large for the Lion as King already, so a little larger if needed won't be too bad. One-Eye tentative King (or hive tyrant), Norn as Queen. Victor's as bushops, Von Ryan knights, Carnifex' rooks and genestealers for pawns (go forth and subvert the populace).

That could look pretty sick tbh. DA vs fallen or something

@@jeffrobagman2834 yeah, build a bigger chess board and it’ll be fine

Narrative play my guy, once you realise you can just adjust rules you hate on the fly it tends to be a real "there is no spoon" moment. Also they actually have made 40k chess before and even a video game about it 'Regicide'.

@@jeffrobagman2834what you mean king is azrael and queen in belial. Thicc queens only.

In 30k defense, because it's a secondary system it isn't updated as frequently as 40k and it's players are much more casual and care more about having fluffy thematic armies than power gaming. Like you will get stares from 30k players if you take to many dreadnoughts.

Its the better game to begin with :D Definitely more thematic for us DA players.

40k is for children ages 10+, so everyone thats grown should switch over to 30k imo

heh, i'll stop playing 40k and start a 30k army, that'll show GW.

@@brandonransley7091 oh your flagship game's models and rules are not selling anymore? What a shame.... maybe you should change that?

He’s an extremely durable character with strike first and a 3+ invulnerable save who hits like a freight train. The pro people have with him is he’s not super mobile so he can be isolated and kept from doing too much damage on his own. He’s not bad,, DA have just more efficient characters they are able to field

They did the same to Guilliman. He’s an exceptionally overcosted beat stick with all of his abilities nerfed to oblivion.

Does seem pretty fucking blasphemous 🤬

@@ElGordoBandito It’s very difficult to balance a primarch in a way that feels accurate to the lore. Lore wise, there are very few beings that can beat a Primarch in a 1 on 1 duel. The only beings I can think of that can beat a primarch in a straight up duel are the Emperor himself, the most powerful of Ork war bosses (like the Beast), and the most powerful of Custodes (like Constantine Valdor). I also think certain C'tan shards can beat a Primarch though it would depend on which one it fought. So how do you balance that?

@@Tulkash01 that gets absolutely steamrolled by anything with dev wounds... let alone units with anti monster + dev wounds! he got nerfed so hard and he wasnt competitive pre-nerf, lost his -1 to wound, lost ability to fnp dev wounds, went from 2 to 1 dmg on his sweep profile. he is VERY bad competitively, almost same price as a 10 man terminator squad, which has triple the wounds with breakups against high DMG wounds, double the melee attacks with +2 strength, more than double the OC and can be buffed by a character. and terminators are still considered overcosted!

the fact that nercons LOST their basic necron lord....

@@avlaenamnell6994At least Necrons are actually good?

@@basteala525still sucks when you lose units youve had forever though.

@@basteala525 I think Necrons are in the same boat as DA. Most of the codex is mediocre to bad, but is carried by how OP/under costed C'tan are, just as DA are carried by Ironstorm + Azrael.

@@basteala525 Correction, the C’tan are good. The Necron codex absolutely obliterated their internal balance. To the point that like 8 units are actually viable.

DeathWing Knights should be 220 points at a Maximum. I am happy with the points cost of the DeathWing Terminators.

@@user-KR386 they should be 250 and worth it.

@@user-KR386also if the DTSergeant could take a power/chain fist instead of the sword that’d be great…

​@@BurnByMoonlight, true. That is kind of annoying. I would love to have that option. I would probably give one of my Sargents a Chainfist. I am in the process of building a 2,000 point DeathWing list.

They see the feedback, but seem to never learn from their mistakes.

It’s almost like codexes should just be fluff books and they just keep the rules free so they can change stuff easier if needed.

The codices should be collector's items now and made more for the lore and artwork. They should just release the rules via the app for 7 or 8 bucks per army. I play competitive so I'd be willing to shell out the money for every army's rules at that price point. But, it took GW how many years to update their store website? I don't expect them to update how they handle codices for a while.

No this is an issue of they do not know how the game works and because they have a three year edition cycle they will not understand how the game works until the end of the edition. They need to stop the three year cycle and write and playtest in house good rules. They have the models to broadly test everything but they are to lazy to do that, easier to use tournament data to make the changes.

Should’ve stayed with digital codex. I miss have every book on my phone & not lugging around a 10lb bag.

No. It's incredible how people have complained and whined about this for decades now and it's as wrong now as it was well over twenty years ago. The game is cyclical, the codex' keep the game alive, fresh and interesting. If they do simultaneous launches the game stagnates after three months and then all you have for three years are balance updates and they'll push DLC books instead. 10th is a bad edition, it's a mishmash of trying to appeal to both casuals and competitive players, failing at both, so GW noncommittally messes with things. I genuinely think they know they screwed the pooch and are just fucking around with it until 11th. Besides, whatever the downsides, this wasn't always an issue, it has only happened occasionally in the past that some faction gets a bad codex.

They are safe from the traitors at GW

He also drops the points cost of the riptide for the fourth time to 145 points. Tau players still refuse to use them.

@@whitewall2253 ‘we’re not falling for that one again’

@@toastle8005 Riptides started the edition at 235 points, they're currently 165. Every points rebalance GW have made them cheaper, the return of triptide is inevitable at the rate GW is going. I'm not pretending this is good, I'm just saying it's fucking happening.

@@whitewall2253 it really is the endtimes… old monsters from our history books rise from the dead to haunt us again :)

It will go two ways. Either they will have undercosted/overbuffed the kroot to make sure they sell. Or they will pull a DA and make them basically worthless.

I feel the same with my Orks.

@@Pers0n97 Even though I don't like kroot much (they don't fit my playstyle for Tau), I still hope they are costed and statted well.

@@Pers0n97And that'll probably come with yet another points increase to the Crisis Suits. 240pts per 3 next, perhaps? Maybe 270 and make them cost the same as a Broadsides?

It already seems pretty obvious they are pushing the Kroot hype so hard, don't think it is a big leap to imagine them nerfing suits and older models as part of forcing Kroot on us. You wanted to buy a whole new 2k all Kroot army right? Maybe the points will look cheap... to push us into Kroot Horde and having to buy even more kits.

Then stop buying GW products.

Make it heard with your wallet. I 3d print, buy 3rd party being ebay, or friends parting out bits, and pirate codexes.

@@solid-snake7336 I personally may or may not be doing that, officer :P

​@@solid-snake7336 the issue is that the people who care about pricing, game design and balance aren't GW's bread and butter these days. They're increasingly marketing towards a much younger demographic. GW used to be a games company that made models, now they're a toy company that has rules for their toys.

@@solid-snake7336 Your version of 3rd party doesn't count as voting with your wallet. Yes, you are not directly giving money to GW, but the person who originally bought the kit did give money to GW. You want to vote with your wallet then 3d print, buy 3rd party proxies like Kromlech (not GW kits from 3rd party sellers,) kitbash, and pirate the codices.

Don't forget guard those poor bastards have forgotten what good rules look like

​@sheridoncary2602 guard are at least mid at worst though, these new DA rules are legit awful outside 2 datasheets (so about admech tier)

@@primarchvulkan5097 I would argue they're on par with ad mech and DA relying on tanks and artillery only with 4bs army wide doesn't really scream good army

@@sheridoncary2602 I am baffled how many people try to pitch the idea guard is bad. They are doing fairly well in the meta. Especially in comparison to DA and AdMech its not even a competition. Also to note that the combination of a scout sentinel, expert bombardiers and indirect fire such as from a manticore lets you hit on 2s, rerolling ones for artillery. A fair bit of artillery plus bullgrynsand some scout sentinels and of course Kasrkin is a devastating force on the table.

@Olosification list like that can be easily beaten with detachments with fast movement, teleport/deep strike shenanigans and stealth/lone op units. artillery hitting 2s with orders and Sentinels are great but it won't mean much if they can't even target units that need to be removed or something has already ended up at their door before hand. And that that's is not even factoring other stuff like point changes to the manticore. I'd rather them doing good all across than fairly well with specific units

100% agree

This is 100% correct, this edition is so shallow and boring compared to the last.

i mean overall balance, minus DA has been pretty good, especially right now. Game plays smoothly. I don't see the issue. Its easy to pick up, has skill expression. Doesnt' take people 10 games to learn all the rules. Gatekeeping the game behind a huge learning curve isn't good for teh game (it is fun mind you, thats why HH is there)

​@@brianhutton2370And it only cost all of the flavor and customization that made the game great.

@@brianhutton2370 It's as boring as a mobile game.

If this was your army it would deservedly be the same

Look at Lion. Now look at a C'tan. And now tell me with a straigth face someone from GWs team doesnt deserve to be beaten to death with a shovel. WHo in their right fucking mind thinks thats balanced in any fucking way whatsoevere?

@@19Crusader91 tough but fair treatment for whoever did this lol

@@19Crusader91yeah, okay, not at all an over-reaction on your behalf. beaten to death with a shovel... grow up, my guy.

@@19Crusader91 That’s what I want most. I just want GW to at least explain the logic behind their decisions. Why need this unit, why buff this unit. If they at least explained their reasoning I could at least somewhat be at ease. But as it is, it genuinely feels like they have a random number generator and balance units based on what number it gives them.

in 8th they had an amazing strat that you could put termis 6in from the enemy if they are next to Ravenwing bikes much rather that than a 3in teleport that you cant even charge from

Honestly, this. I feel like if there were some actually cool mixed -wing detachments, I'd be very excited for the book, even though it got worse.

I was hoping for a Weapons of the Dark Age Plasma detachment honestly, and still no plasma support at all for 10th. Oh well, at least our new, terrible models look cool?

It got the Drukhari treatment of 3 diff armies in a book.

It's worse... they feels they don't even need to care beyond an absolute basic level because people will buy stuff regardless Competitive balance is probably the best it's been since 5th & the tail end of 9th which shows they are improving slowly at least If they wanted to they could easily make a much better game system but I guess a couple more well paid writers is too much to ask from the monopoly making hundreds of millions in profit each year

I think a lot of people do understand this. What is needed is a solution. My gaming group have written our own rules set, combining what we like from 9th and 10th. I really think the best approach is to completely cut GW out of all rules writing. They make great models but I wouldn't touch their rules products with a barge pole now - working with one friend over the course of about four months I have managed to create a rules set that I am convinced is better than anything the GW team have come out with.

One Page Rules exists and does not force you to use a specific miniature and even lets you design and point-cost your own armies.

@@elliemouse545 one page rules is fine for some, but it is a pretty slimmed down system. That is exactly what some people are looking for but not what my group wanted. I actually think if you combine elements of 9th and 10th you get a pretty decent game system. It has been the unbearably bad balance that has really wrecked these. And yes before anyone pipes up with 'but competitive win rates . . . ', balance is about more than just tournament win rates. Internal balance is important as well and has been hot garbage for many factions.

Bad units dont sell so GW doesnt understand sells neither

that the game is moving towards a less lethal meta? I'm not opposed to it. It's kinda nice that units aren't being vaporised if you give them a dirty look.

@luisitobardajibenitez8013 Pretty much. Also may start to see a shift back towards narrative rather than competitive. I have been hearing rumors that the AoS rules team may be taking charge of 40k rules writing. Given AoS seems to be better balanced, I hope so.

So I guess the positive is that we may all get fucked equally badly? :D

I had this same thought when the Codex first came out... nothing seems like it had the same philosophy behind it.

Tbh, if you bought in the World Eater after they got released with only 3 kits, that's 100% on you. There was no way this army would be playable in that state.

Yeahhhhh they're gonna nerf Mozrog into the ground. Probably up to a 5++, no more FNP, and go up to 300pts based on how they've treated other armies. Nobz will lose powerclaws, Trukks will go up to 100+pts. It's a bad edition to be a 40k fan.

I play Orks and DA, I'm expecting Orks to be dragged into the pits now as well. 😢

I’ll… take the offer, honestly :(

i have no sympathy for CSM. whoever thought they were balanced before the last nerf was as insane as the person who wrote the aeldar rules.

I play DA and Fallen DA/Chaos SM. Great stuff.

nightlords are calling me...

Yea i agree. Take lion for example, 300 feels almost low of a points cost for a primarch, make the datasheet worth a higher cost! I want to feel like im playing a whole primarch, not some suped up captain. Maybe give him some redeploy/movement shenanigans with forest walk to make him a mobile, independent, high damage unit like magnus?

Meanwhile the imperial guard gets like 3 months to enjoy their codex before the next edition. XD

​@@Kingofdragons117 rumours suggest imperial guard are coming in the summer with more krieg models. Hopefully theyre true, Kriegers are the second coolest guard regiment.

yeah i totally agree, imo 10th edition has been my favorite edition of 40k to date (been playing since 6th) however i’ve been less than impressed by the codexes and books released for it so far

There's not really any discussion, 9th was far more cohesive and despite its balance spikes the game never felt bad. 10th is one lost list of disappointments. It's not outright terrible (despite me maintaining that this is the worst edition of 40k ever made), but it feels all wrong.

Aren't basically all the released codex armies all doing bad and have gone worse since their codex came out aside maybe necrons in a specific detachment?

Necron players are happy.

​@@tajj7each codex so far has one detachment that's going above 50%, then maybe one or two near, then the rest bad

I think it was in either 5th or 6th edition that vanilla codex had rules for the White Scars that was significantly better than Ravenwing. Don't get me wrong they should have good rules as there should be balance. The problem was they got a ton of equipment etc that the DAs didn't have plus a few rules that made it better to run a bike army as WSs than Ravenwing. It was frustrating.

Have you SEEN what they did to the world eaters.

@@johnsmith-dn8kv Yeah, how they thought that releasing that half-assed excuse of an army range is BEYOND me! Like, how did they decide to make possessed that don't look like possessed instead of red butchers? And they don't even have generic chaos lords...

No thet ARE chaos, but play Aeldari.

​@@oldmangames9292 The GW rules team play eldar, the lore team play chaos and the model team play age of sigmar. They all hate each other.

Uhhh, have you seen the post dataslate csm win rates? Guessing not. CSM got taken out the back and shot in one go, while Eldar are still highly competitive after FOUR rounds of nerfs. GW rules team clearly favours Eldar.

other than the knights its just the regular terminator unit your not missing much other than running them as terminator assault squad

If based correctly the new knights would make amazing sword brethren 😢

Literally what I was thinking lol. A shame so many people play BT but I can’t blame them the BT are the emperors righteous fury upon the unclean

Go ahead, we (sob) aren’t using them

As a DA player, I'm glad someone will be making good use of those gorgeous models, cause we can't.

Simplified for tourney players who crave predictability, killed for anyone else.

​@@brycedery9596 it's literally the opposite though, tourney players were the ones who cared the most about the granularity of the game to be able to tune their list, power levels have never been made for competitive players

This. 1000% this. Removing gear (free gear mean no choice) and unit size is destroying the game. I really, REALLY hope they will finally see that the AoS template they have been forcing on 40k since 8th isn't working and will take a step back for the next edition.

@@Pers0n97yeah i hate all gear being free. means theres no real choice, you just take the best. and theres no room for a unupgraded squad compared to a decked out squad.

@@avlaenamnell6994Per point models being gone is also shit as well. Having an odd 40pts sitting around in a list is such bullshit just now because once upon a time, you'd throw in some extra Lascannons somewhere or add an extra Terminator to a squad, something like that. Now I sit staring at the points documents having already added my enhancements with absolutely no idea how to give myself the extra points without remaking the entire list... And inevitably, I take something out just so I'm not coming into a 2k game short of points. Everything feels very prescribed the edition. You will use these squads in the numbers we say with the best weapons, because why wouldn't you? They're free. Also take as many of the Epic Heroes as possible because they have unique abilities that can literally make or break your list. 10th has been a big miss for me since it came out and now I'm just hoping for *yet another* rules reset for 11th.

I bet the only thing they look at is the sales numbers, and since they cunningly sold these monies BEFORE revealing their actual ingame effects they probably already hit their target.

Give it two months until the next point changes and DA will likely be in a much better place.

@@chrisj9628 I hope so I don’t want or expect things to be absolutely overpowered but having things hit like this at launch sucks. I’m hopeful for the future

They sold enough brethren! Time to sell blade guard

They should be worse than bladeguard. Generic chapters only get bladeguard, while the dark angels, black Templar’s etc. get their options additionally without any drawback. The only way to make it balanced is for the chapter specific units to be somewhat worse, and make up for it elsewhere.

Make the chapter specific units worse. Great plan.

@@lukepaterson6626 except the dark angels get blade guard and can play those ... The fix would be to have limitations as divergent chapters to use only your own detachments and have proper chapter specific units. I don't need 9 detachments as da player. Make my army interesting as a choice and not just more pointless options that fuck up the internal balances of other factions. 10th is just a complete mess when it comes to subfactions.

@@lukepaterson6626 but the problem with that is that there's no point in even having chapter-specific units if they don't do anything better than the generic ones, except for pure fluff. Why would you even make a bladeguard-like if they're going to be worse across the board? I don't mean they have to be all-around better, but they should be a viable alternative depending on the list/detachment that you're building. There's not really any situation where ICCs are the better choice.

Simple, its for the same reason that they gradually made all the firstborn shit: to phase them out. It's easier to discontinue a miniature when it's a bad one that nobody plays anymore than when it's a great one that people still use.

Three years is not enough for one edition istg

Wana know what's REALLY comical? How every single editions since 4th has been worse than the one that came before, a trend that increased A LOT since 8th. 8th did untold damage to the game by starting its slow devolution into AoS GW is aiming for. 9th was awful because it tried way too hard to make the stratagems a thing. 10th is by far the worst edition the game has ever seen because it's the final step toward AoS, no wargear, fixed unit size, premade armies in the form of detachement. GW is trying to force a round peg into a square hole, it doesn't work and it's killing the game.

@@Pers0n97 Actually 9th was the best edition in term of rules since the beginning of 40k but ok. Only issue was the instability due to power creep, which would have been ok if they made a 5 years edition.

I agree I liked 9th it made every army strong they had it all perfectly balanced at the end then bam 10th came out and was a massive cluster fuck and butchery of the game

10TH edition is not even comparable to AOS, what are you babbling about? Have you ever even played 3rd edition AOS?@@Pers0n97

Yeah, I want to run Word Bearers as my CSM, not Black Legion but red. In fact, not even Black Legion anymore, just nondescript CSM but in red...

​@Wanten-the-stormtrooper yup, same with the Guard index. Its fine for more static armies like Cadians and Death Korps but if you wanna play a themed sneaky Catachan, mechanised Steel Legion or hit and run Tallarn force then good luck, as you lose the main benefit of your detachment bonus the second you move.

And yet most things are quite lethal to shorten game duration so it fits into tournament schedules.

The butchering of the game system brought with 10th should have been your wake up call to that fact my dude.

​@@Pers0n97Eh 10th had some good ideas and some bad ideas, like most editions. Unfortunately aside from addressing major outliers, the balance passes have been fucking terrible.

Reject Modernity, embrace 9th ed.

9th ed was boring af

@@radiospace7071Late 9th was much better than it is now. Both in terms of list building interest and actual play.

Late 9th was not good either. There's a reason we got 10th (other than the sales) and that's because 9th was so broken everything died by turn 3, and the power creep was really really bad. I think late 8th was the true epitome of balance between fun and functional.

@@Ragnarok2504Getting tabled by turn 3 is still a regular occurrence thought. The only difference is that now to do that you can't just take 1 "anti everything" unit. You needed dedicated anti infantry, anti tank, etc. but they still kill their optimal targets just as well if not more so than in 9th. The game is just as awful as it's been since I've started but now, I can play my army in only one specific way. Even if you argue that 9th was so imbalanced that effectively each army only had 1 playstyle, you still could at least rules wise had more than just 1, as opposed to like, the 5 factions with codexes.

Agreed yeah... But at least the characters were (and still are) pretty good.

@@Pers0n97 they just took all the dark angel flavor and flushed it down the toilet. I think games workshop is now going after money at all costs. they're not going to have a fan base in accouple years if they keep this up.

@@ExosLifeYup, 100% They are ruining the game by turning it into AoS. They are ruining the lore with their new shit. They have ruined the marines with primaris. They are ruining all the subfactions by basically trying to erase them (marines or not). They are ruining the hobby by making every minies monopose. They are ruining the game for new players by making combat patrols worse and worse. And finally they are making the game less and less accessible to ... everyone by constantly increasing the prices. NONE of what they do is good for the long term health of the game.

It’s like a party game, you blindfold them, spin them around four times, and then…

@@toastle8005 i feel like even playing blindfolded darts would have netted better points values. At least a few more units would have been ok/good that way xD

I would recommend either houseruling games of 2nd/3rd/4th, or maybe playing One Page Rules with all of the expansions and House Rules you need. Either way, you’re going to have more fun than building, painting and lovingly preparing an army for 10th, only to get smacked in the face for it.

Guard will be the whipping boy.m of 10tg 😂

I know right? Forcing PowerLevels on the base game despite EVERYONE, OVERWHELMINGLY hating the system was so worth it. Makin wargear free was also such a great idea! Instead of having some cool and impactful wargears with the drawback of sometime being a noobtrap pointsink, now we have garbage wargear that don't do shit and not maxing them every time (to make sure you have to roll has many weapon profiles as possible) is the noobtrap. Geee, 10th is such a great design success.

@@Pers0n97 so glad we learned all our lessons from previous mistakes, and definitely didn’t start a bloody *speedrun of them*

@@toastle8005Of course! Remember, #besteditionever!

And that's not even counting his brothers and other crazy shit like Ctan shards

Also the Brutalis has access to tank Shock as well for even more moral spam. Truly a better Primarch haha

It gets even more insane once you calculate damage potential. If every possible hit goes through then the brutalis pair can deal 64 damage (including shooting and mortal wounds) in one round. The Lion maxes out at a puny 36 by comparison, didn’t even count for tank shock!

Yeah, what is 3+ inv, lone operative while being near friendly unit, reflecting 1 dmg as MW on 6, lethal hits + sustained hits on melee, sh*t load of attacks, deep striking, fights first and buffing near units - nothing, absolotely nothing. He's worse than Imperial Guardsman...

@@ancientmariner9460 clearly you've never played with or against the Lion before. A 3++ sounds strong until you realize that an average tank will get an attack through each sequence. He dies to 1 or 2 hits with only T9 W10. It's so easy to kill him while never putting anything important into his short range. He looks great on paper until you actually put him in a game where he slowly drags up the field to accomplish little. There are so many units that easily outdo the Lion in every aspect for the same or less points. That's what people are complaining about. If he was 250pts I'd say he's crazy good because he'd be points efficient. At current he is not points efficient. He doesn't do enough for the points you're paying. That is the complaint.

I would be tempted to try 10 with a chaplain even with the new nerfed rules but at only 5 and nerfed no way

@@primarchvulkan5097 I was wanting to do just that as well. Hopefully Dark Angels get buffed in the future

You don't need to go that far, just go back to 3rd or 4th, this was unironically the best editions ever made.

Finally someone else says it. Space Marines are supposed to be elite warriors, not 2w Guardsmen. The only Marines that should be hordey are Black Templars.

On the planet where GW is trying REALLY hard to reduce the ammount of minies the game is played for, so they can sell you way less for way more. To archive that they just need to increase the price of everything and reduce the unit size as much as possible. At this rate, but 13th we'll be playing with 3 units of 3 models on a chess board.