It's hard and not tuned right at all Can do +10 dawnbreaker with 8 deaths and finish with time to spare Do a +10 stonevault 1 death an no wipes and finish with 10seconds on timer
Even if we don't look at DF S3, look at DF S4, widely regarded as a joke season because it was fated, but yet M+ participation was also wildly overperforming - if only because it was literally an extension of S3, just a different dungeon lineup.
@@ThrallsHammer I find it ironic that the best seasons of m+ always happen to have the most older dungeons in the pool. I think that says something to how these current dungeons are being made
In season 2 of Dragonflight I managed to just barely complete a +18 in the first week, the result was a myth weapon in my vault and I rode that high all season. I slowly ground out my myth crests at +16 and sometimes even got an 18 for another shot at some myth gear, increasing my power over 3-4 months. That’s all dead now, we are 3 weeks in and I’ve barely got all +7, no 8’s and 9’s seem like a dream. Heroic gear is pointless because 4/6 is the same as 8/8 champion. Everything feels bad, there is no slow grind, just a wall of pain. Maybe when I’ve max all my slots at 619 I’ll start to see some progress but that magic of dragonflight is complete gone.
@@YumYum820 that's the scariest part. The player base is already a LOT smaller. Granted I bought the expansion yesterday after a brief break but everything seems so dead now on what was previously a high population server in the US. If they can't get this right and people stop playing it's going to be a problem they can't fix.
I was running 9's on my resto sham and im burned out already, this has been the worst season ive run so far for M+, I dont even have the motivation to log on and fill out my vault before reset. I feel like you get stone walled faster this season when trying to gear
Blizz: "We want to smooth out the damage numbers by raising HP pools and making healing more consistent." Also Blizz: Designs every boss and trash pull to hit like a truck and have 1 shot mechanics. I fucking KNEW they weren't gunna be able to do the stated goal, and now healing is the most stressful it's ever been. Instead of improving the healing experience they gave us the worst of both worlds.
It seems very clear blizz decided folks got geared and quit too fast in s1 and s2 DF. So they stretched the gap to the highest crests and myth track gear. And they stretched too far in combo with a mega meta only season, in conjuction with nerfing cc, in conjunction with less tanky tanks, in conjuction with at least two totally crap dungeons. its just too much
They actually made it more lenient on s3/4. Lowering it to 17s for vault and 18s dropped myth track gear if memory serves. It was dungeon design in s1 being so overturned. S2 and s3 went well. God comp existed and complicated any .1% keys. That's a blemish but the rest were pretty good. The removal of stuns interrupting casts is painful.
I just find it fucking wild that they had a great system, probably the best ever, and nerfed the ever living shit out of it and just ruined the season as whole for me personally, and others who primarily do mythic plus.
That’s how I feel. All you had to do was remove bolstering and sanguine. That’s fkin it lol. But nooo gotta do things your way. S3 of df was a fkin blast there was no dire need to revamp it
They wanted to halt progression!!! SO now only the sweats progress while us casuals suffer. I can only do like 3 a week, and of those 3 1 is a success.
I remember some months away people complaining that DF was too casual friendly and explicity wanted more grind to 'reward" difficult content. Here it is, and now everyone its miserable. On top of that, gearing once you are at mythic track level is timegated now, slow and painful with current m+ pool and situation. Alts will always be behind for the same reason unless you have also been filling their vaults with 10s week 1.
@@RinaaaYa except this is the opposite. There's nothing to gain from m+ outside of crests, delves give better gear than anything lower than like 8s, which is ridiculous with how easy delves are. The difficulty of m+ for the rewards makes absolutely no sense at the moment. DF at the end was way too easy, but they've done a flip, in typical blizz way, and turned it completely over, making the rewards worse and the dungeons significantly harder.
The scaling definitely feels broken. This is the first season since Legion that I don’t care to push keys. Even during the transition from normal to mythic was a flawed opportunity to see the mechanics. Once mythic+ was released the mechanics seemed so difficult due to scaling that most people finally saw the mechanics for their first time during keys. That created a huge problem with people being upset with other players for lack of mechanic knowledge. Most people are waiting for fixes but with the delves system there’s no point to get engaged in the keys beyond a +3 for heroic vault loot. Then to upgrade your heroic gear needing to do a +9 is way too high of a jump. I think most players are stuck waiting for crests to upgrade to 619 champion gear level to push to +9 keys to upgrade the rest of their gear, but after two weeks of that, what the point anymore? For the average Joe, Blizzard dropped the ball this mythic+ season.
@@Kytrion I think this is really what people have been saying for a long time. Honestly the entire keystone system needs to go. They should make dungeons the same as delves. You can run them at any level you have unlocked, and the next level is unlocked simply through completion.
I did the math on how long it would take to fully upgrade all my gear to 6/6 myth track. Currently 624 and it will take 14 weeks just for the crests to unlock enough to upgrade all the gear. And that’s with getting a new mythic 1/6 track gear every week to upgrade. It’s gross
What really makes me wonder is blizzard saw all the positives of mythic plus in DF and just changed everything. They squished the key lvls, nerfed tanks a bit, the gear rewards are trash too. Wtf would a new player want to engage in content that was already challenging for new mythic plus players in DF going through PUG hell And make it even worse. Especially considering now tier 7-8 delves reward new players better and easier. Blizzard needs to stop these insane dramatic changes and tune things that actually are successful. Alot of new mythic plus players i know have already given up on it.
Players do M+ because they no longer have the time commitment available that they once had for raiding. One of my favourite things about M+ is being able to do 'high' level content without needing to commit myself to a group of people or join a guild. My main issue with current M+ is that they've made it so that it's incredibly difficult to pug. Personal rating seems entirely meaningless, i've seen multiple 2.2k rated players die to easily avoidable mechanics or fail to do mechanics on keys below their highest. The issue is that they've turned M+ into 5 man raiding in the sense that one singular person making mistakes will ruin your run, meaning that in order to minimise the risk of encountering people who are mistake prone you ideally want to find a group of similarly skilled players who want to play at the same time you do, communicate well and then your right back at organised structured rigid roles and you may as-well start raiding again. If you're in a premade group of similar skilled players I'm sure you have no difficulty blasting your way to KSH, I think the challenge probably seems fun. I don't know who keeps putting a computer in the monkey enclosure at my local zoo but most players I group with play like animals, interrupt like brann (every 4th cast he might get) and apparently hate using personal defensives or any utlity skills that could help the group. "but we gave you delves" thanks bliz.
They never should have squished the mythic plus difficulty. You have people who had no buisness going past a plus 10 jumping into essentially +17s disguised as a 7 getting easy loot in delves thinking ilvl will carry.
No the difficulty squish is good the problem is the "leaves key after 1 wipe" people are now mixed in with the "I just want to fill my vault" types in 10's.
@@Theparadoxd7No it’s not. Especially since it’s not a “squish” it’s cutting off the bottom half. With no on-ramp you can’t expect everyone to get on the highway without crashes.
If blizz was going to make the difficulty level be this way, they should have reverted the key level to the way it used to be ranging from 1-20. To be fair, i regard myself to be a better player compared to thw average player base and i have no problem completing my weekly 10s. But for casuals, they do not have an easier key to get better and understand mechanics anymore due to the level squish. 10-17 were best levels for them to skill up and gear up where now they have to force themselves to do 19s to gear up in order to get better. It might feel unfair for them
@@littleblackcat461 i agree. Now 7s and 8s are easily accessible while the difficulty jump is steep. This means the average players who lack ilvl and skill must be matched with the players who are stronger or better than them to time those keys. This can make the better players feel as if the average players are burdens since most likely the keys will get bricked because of them. However the average players are now forced to play more difficult content with them because that is the key level they got by simply playing the game. This will make the "better" players avoid low ilvl or unexperienced players in their party because they would want to time their keys making the average players be left to fend for themselves without anyone to teach or let them experience higher keys. If only the average players were to group up together for 7s or higher, they would most likely face a wall by themselves and will not be able to enjoy M+ and leave. A vicious cycle
Its a dead season for me. I got AOTC and unsubbed, why would I stress myself out, having a horrible time in M+, in a GAME where im supposed to be HAVING FUN.
I pugged all my keys, I have all +11 and some of them ++. No idea what you are talking about. People around +5 are unexperienced, this gets better the higher you go.
@@takemyname4363 No. People in +10s are almost as bad at interrupting, cc, mechanics, and at their own class as people in +4s. In +11 it becomes a bit better, because only the most dedicated players run +11s and above. Usually they have their own teams, and usually they have higher ilvl for Mythic raiding too.
@@takemyname4363 if this is true, you are literally in the top .5%, which means your opinion and experience with the system is mathematically useless because it is not even remotely representative of the average experience
@@takemyname4363 there is some sense in this. the really good players do the higher keys; but how does the average player pug keys to get the score to do higher keys?
@@takemyname4363so the whole community is talking about how plugging 10 is a nightmare but you are special and you have no issues with 10s , aha yeaaaah buddy
I had the affix spawn on 1st boss in Dawnbreaker during the fly-away/mount phase forcing us in combat and wiping us, basically making it impossible to even do to the mechanic. It amaze me how such a oversight can make it into live when there have been months of beta and people probably already reported that bug. But it's Blizzard after all, so what can you expect.
You dont understand Beta. In Beta you can choose what affixes can be on your stone. So people always use the easiest affixes. Many people dont really test on beta, they just use it as sort of EA when Season 4 of current expansion gets boring. This leads to such things like a hard affix dont get tested in the hardest dungeon cause people dont want to wipe. There are people who play harder stones and report such bugs but bug reported only by a few people get sorted back etc.
@@Chemz6651 I enjoy pushing keys and I am over 2.6k io. What I meant there was there is no scaling in high keys since you are pretty much done after timing all 11s. Try using your brain a bit while reading stuff, might help.
@@dotftw1 done with all 11s? Anything past a 10 is for higher raider IO score. My team and I are still pushing 13s .. if you don’t like the challenge then just do your 10s and get your gear in the vault. What the hell are you complaining about?
Gilded crests dropping from 9s instead of 6s is a huge bottleneck for players to gear past 619. It's effectively made Heroic gear pointless to a large portion of the player base.
@@TheUmbrex you have to be joking or play with a really REALLY great premade group, because for most players right now ? 9 is not doable, and i mean something like 80%+ of the playerbase then does m+ at least seriosly can't do a 9
If you're 619 you should easily time 10s. My group (3200-3400 xp so quite under title range) is almost timing them at 610, usually off by 1-3 minutes. We're 2-chesting the 9s easily except for NW; on week 2, we were completing 10s in about 90 minutes. For most dungeons, +9 pugs are not hard at 610 if you know the mechanics and how to play your specs. Even easier, you list a +9 and you instantly have dozens of 2600 io players queuing for it; you can pick your carry group for free. 10s are harder mostly because the tank has to swap from "bosses are tough" to "the whole dungeon is trying to rip me a new one" between two keys. That's my biggest issue with 10s as a one-month-old prot warrior. Same goes for healers; they have to change their CD planning going from 9 to 10. Easy homework 9 - tough 10 with Fort and Tyr - repeat. Once 10s become our homework keys and 11 our push keys that'll go away.
614 ret pally here, top the meters pretty much every mythic. Get in a few 9s one mess up they leave. Tired now. It’s not even fun. 7s for groups I have been in, have been hell.
Mythics are fine in coordinated groups. They are not worth it in pugs atm. Usually just go for 2500ish and stop each season. Mostly pugging. This season I haven’t even pushed past 1900. As a healer, you can’t hard carry groups that dont interrupt, fail mechanics. I can push further but bricking every other key isn’t worth my time. It’s one thing having a high brick rate going for portals but having it in 5-8 keys just isnt fun. 850k hps run- bricked key, blamed for bad heals 400k hps run- +2 key it. Difference is coordination. The player base isn’t “good” at the game depending how we want to define it.
even if you interrupt it does mostly nothig. I have never feeled so useless as a Demo in M+ due to the 45 se. on my interrupt and mass stun doesnt anything than synchronozing all enemy casts so they now oneshot a person .
My friend always said that if you're healing more than you should in a m+ it's bc someone is doing something wrong. I did 2 CoT +10s one after the other, one I healed +800k as a 620 rsham and it burned and the other 580k didn't go +2 by 13secs.
@@slymcfly123 yeah, but that 620 came with a lot of suffering behind, as I mostly do pugs and a lot of trial and error learning when to use my CDs and defensive, also rshams are really good this season bc curses are really bad, grim batol healing absorbs are easy to deal with, sob 15% damaging increase curses hits the tank really bad bc it's stacks (I saw 4 stacks at once).
Timers and the dungeons themselves need to be tuned. Pugging right now has been extremely frustrating, more so than any season I can recall. You'd think because gear is readily attainable from delves they would make Mythic + a better experience to help encourage people to try and and deter players from abandoning it altogether. But no, they made it worse.
1. Stop nerfing healers. Period. Full stop. 2.Fix the kicks. Put them back to how they were. 3. Push the shit timer penalty at Seven to 10 and push it to 10 seconds, the 10 shit to 12, and 12 shit to 16. 4. Revert the crests to how they were in season 4 of DF 5. Tune down all the fucking dots, and fix the damage profile in general. Tanks should not be almost one shot from white damage. 6. Stop nerfing the fucking healers!!!!
The weakening of healers so they aren't 1 global topping people for raid is a good goal, but they didn't achieve that in the slightest. Half the classes are still topping the raid in a global or two meanwhile other healers are payphoning just to get okay numbers but have burnt through all their mana - Shamans for example. But back to M+ they really messed up making the incomming damage too high, there's just not enough time to heal people back up AND they need to use defensives in 9's/10's which is absolutely impossible for most pugs.
@@Theparadoxd7 they need to have three tuning categories. 1. Raid 2. Mythic plus 3. Pvp Basing mplus tuning on raid, especially for healers, is beyond stupid. In mplus we are alone and need to be stronger than in raid where there a many healers.
@@yomammasaurusrex9571Knowing how to play soccer before signing up for a soccer game is not toxic elitism. It's expected. Toxic elitist casuals are the real problem at hand.
M+, like everyone is saying, is overtuned. And with the release of the Delve system a player like me, that has a full time job and kids and other obligations, can get a guaranteed (if not duplicate protected) drop with about 7 minutes worth of time I will take that over a 25 minute time sink of 40% maybe. Ya in M+ I can targetish a specific drop so Im not getting the full spectrum of the drop table like getting the Spelunker's Waning Candle 4 times in a row (seriously Blizz I dont want it stop) but in just a few weeks my main is already almost completely Hero level kitted out and I was able to do it in a short amount of time which works better in my life. I used to do M+ back before the squish for fun. Once I had the gear I would either take alts through 2-5s for time killing or would take my Bear into the lower keys to help those groups looking for a tank that had been in que for 10 minutes. But now with the default of a "2" now starting at what a "10" was I have no real desire to run them. Or help random pugs with my tanks. I would rather pug a normal or heroic Nerub-ar Palace on my toons. Since this season came out I have ran 5 total keys on various characters and I can say right now that I have no interest in doing more on my own. Guildee asks or BNet friend ask I MIGHT thing about it. The other reason I am not keen on the doing M+ is the mount reward. I dont like the mech suit mounts. I have no reason to push for a mount I really dont care about. I didnt push in DF either I got the KSM in 2 seasons because it was fun or we had access to fun gear like the Bullions in S4. In SL (yes in the cursed expac) I pushed in every season because that mount was awesome in my opinion. But the DF and TWW mount rewards are just.....trash in my opinion. They took the casual option for M+ which some of us only have time for casual. Its now try hard and perfect pulls with overtuned damage profiles and quite a few key killing pug bosses. Also there are 2 SL dungeons in the pool. I did not want to revisit ANYTHING SL for a very long time. They could have waited another decade and it still would have been too soon for me.
Its crazy to me that i can consistantly run 10++ ara karas and mists but i cant even get a 8 NW one chest done with pugs. The difference in the dungeons is insane.
@@ImAnOcean the third boss of nw is a huge wall with tyranical if your group makes a mistake and loses the spears. imo remove the shitty gimmick spears and nerf stitchflesh a lot
There;s a reason why everyone is doing 14s and 13s ara kara's, mists and the random dawn, but everything else is stuck on 12 and 11s lol... the scaling is absolutely atrocious
@@stuff4812 ok, i get that, in those runs i probably had 3 spears on bl on point. but i even managed to get some without bl going for bl on second and last boss. if noone fucks up it is doable, however i just tried a necrotic 11 and it was nasty, all 9's feel good though, even grim batol before nerfs
agree completely. they really should have made 7's or at most 8's be the cutoff for gilded crests, and 9's be myth track vault. its ridiculous that you need to do just 10s for vault.
Having content for the ones who want to push is fine, if they aren't mixed in with those who just want to fill their vaults. It's such a simple fix, make max vault rewards 9's and let 10's and up be people pushing for teleports/score.
The death penalty affix is atrocious but let’s be honest, there are a lot of very bad, inexperienced players in decent ilvl this season thanks to Delves. It doesn’t help that M0’s were a failure in teaching mechanics as we outgeared then day one.
because blizzard is stubbornly still trying to prevent players from doing what they enjoy and doing what mythic plus incentivises. they dont want people pulling huge amounts of mobs at once and refuse to listen about it.
The rewards are just too far out of reach for how hard the content is (for most players). Pugging +9s and not timing them because you have 3 deaths (taking a whopping 45 sec. of the timer) and then getting 5 measly gilded crests as a "reward" completely sucks when you can't get myth gear (because groups are really only taking the best players/friends/guildies to their 10s) and need 90 crests for a fully crafted item. That's 18 untimed 9s - EIGHTEEN !
Very simple, the juice isn't worth the squeeze. The people who push high keys for gear are wasting their time and can gear faster with less stress. Mythic Plus is for Keystone completionist and title / mount collectors. Anyone else suffers.
This is what lots of players don't understand, the returns are so low that unless you're spending your 7 days grinding like a mad nolife you won't progress that much. It's like hearing the 2005 R14 telling you to get good while spending every ounce of their time playing... degeneracy at its peak, and are so much in their bubble that they can't understand why people are complaining.
It feels like they released a lot of the Hero Talent trees in an unfinished state, especially ones like Protection Paladin (Lightsmith and Templar) which are both sub-par for Protection Paladins. All of these new reworks and updates are proof that we are still in the Beta testing phase of TWW.
gear progression is ass (bar delves, purely m+), time investment is ass, affixes are either not important or require multiple hotfixes, the dungeon pool is boring asf, dungeons are horrible tuned, the kick changes were horrible, they claimed to streamline healing but added in a million damage events per key. Some of the tanks just feel very unfun, esp coupled with how they messed with healers. They increased crests requirements, the vault/dungeons themselves don't reward you for your time investments. Getting your hands on gilded crests is horrible, normally the pinnacle of timing a key was the tp reward, and before that you could get your mythic track pieces. Now they're together, with double affix bullshit and every week just feels the same, multiple different affixes were actually fun. They'd change the weeks up, instead of all the monotonousness. But gee, i wonder why.. DF S3 still by far the best season for playing, gearing and rewards from your time investment.
The "top gear" you keep referencing is 639, not 636. So in reality, fully upgraded heroic gear is 13 ilvls behind mythic rather than the 6 from before.
its way too high, the hell they were thinking with mythic raids being probably the least played content by the average playerbase, ye hf getting invites into ones its already impossible with 616 to get a inv in HC's without curve. So a lot of players just outright buy their curve and never bother with it again.
Thats actually 100% true, that third boss has a obvious mechanic flaw like having lust being 100% required as well as spears to be able to kill it at 8 key or up, like wtf? and then also making one mistake with the hook will always be a wipe. It's a testament towards blizzards incompetence towards play testing.
I remember this channel fussing that it was too easy to get crest and gear in Dragon Flight and wanting it harder. Many of the streamers as a matter of fact complained of "too easy gearing". I see now it has bit them in ass.
streamers are fucking online clowns, they are usually really dumb people with absolutely horrible takes that only create tier lists. Yeah, those dedicated tend to do hard content and be better players than the rest, but that still does not make them have smart ideas and opinions, you need to have quite a bit of insight and being able to look at things in a different way. Also, you should not as a game developer make your gearing and game mechanics around people that have playing your game as a job. But hey, hur dur muh streamers or something, which is most likely blizz response.
ya he definitely likely realized he was dead wrong on some of his opinions about gearing, or atleast wrong when it comes to what best for the general playerbase
As a m+ only player it's also very demotivating to also having to do eight 4-8 keys for 90 runed crests next to having to do eight +10 or higher keys for the vault to be up-to-date gear wise...
I pugged all my way tto 2550, with my bdk and almost all 10s timed, it just require much more time than before. Also levelled a prot war alt and was able to time +8s in 595. My dps friends had a sinilar experience ro your thoz i guess being in control of key its a big help
Yes, by far. Soemone finally had the balls to say it out loud, without fear of getting labeled "git gut" or "skill issue" Not only is the CC change brutal in non-coordinated groups, but the 15 sec death pentalty means a single wipe and the run is over. Not only that, but they made the worst possible dungeon pool imaginable. Also they gated "gilded" crests behind 9s, yet you sorth of NEED higher ilvl to push 9-10s and above. So its literally failing keys after keys for 5 crests till you get the REQUIRED gear to make 10's managable. The job/experience paradox. It doesn't end there making BOTH Tyran AND Fortifed active is like worse than ANY "bad" affix we ever had. I'd take sanguine for days over this.
I am so tired getting labeld with "skill issue" and told by the same people that they easily do 10 solo with one Hand while jerking to a screenshot of their raider io ranking.
Reading this and I am not sure if we are even playing the same game? For me this is the best expansion since DF. It has some issues, but it has been less than a month since m+ came out and things are getting better day by day.
@@matedespot1480 well i think you're the one playing the different game than everybody else :P M+ is horrible atm. i'd take necrotic and let 20 mobs spank me before dealing with what we have now any day
@@matedespot1480NW is ot ok. Stone Vault is not ok. They had to nerf mobs by 66%. They did not test anything. They are still changing everything. The game sucks. It should have be shipped as a fi wished product. It isn't. It sucks.
To me, as a tank, what annoys me about the current season is how little consistency exists between the dungeons. - Necrotic Wake is absolute cancer, didn't kill 3rd boss after using spears (why is the dungeon designed such that you HAVE TO use the optional items)? Key bricked. Oh, and all adds are actually bosses - Dawnbreaker, the adds can probably solo the Mythic raid. The adds pump insane damage - Ara Kara. Ez - City. Ez - Stonevault? Has some hairy moments, but honestly I think it is fine - GM. Last boss is absolute insanity and is very much anti some classes whose move a lot (ex: DH). Also, some of the adds are jsut monsters even WITH defensives. As it stands, some dungeons feel like they're just massively overttuned and result in keys bricking the moment a wipe happens
you enjoy city until you get slapped for 80% of your hp by the first boss first melee attack followed by the subjugation. That shit has some insanely weird tuning its crazy. Overall there seems to be some mismatch in first auto attack hits on certain mobs/bosses. But yeah, NW was cancer before, is cancer now, grim batol is pure trash, Mists and Ara are stupidly easy in comparison to the others. Also timer in dawnbreaker is insanely lenient while you get shit on in others.
THe problem is that 90% of the players are getting frustrated and the other 10% are trying to gaslight the rest saying they are bad, when the game is clearly too hard for the common player... We can't keep balancing it to satisfy the top 1%...
Most of my 10+ keys are tanks literally falling over and we wipe and that is literally the end of the key. I have 2500 IO as a warrior and i will not get invited to a 10+. Got ksh all from my own keys. But as a 2500 io warrior i will never get invited to a key. Gotta love this game.
Man I'm having such a tough time with leaves, people d/cing, or straight up trolling keys. We were about to time an 11 Sob, but of course the prot pally gets once shot 3 times on the final boss and everyone leaves. I don't understand why people are so fucking impatient
Honestly. I think the problem might be with the community itself.. I've found decent groups that struggle with 7s and similarly geared groups that make jokes out of M+ content. This seasons M+ content requires more than just Damage. It requires popping defensives at specific times for survival, Interrupts, group stuns, target prioritization.. The damage wasn't different between the 2 groups.. the better groups had more attention to those details to help the party.
There's a bunch of stuff contributing to how bad M+ feels atm. 1.The best crests should drop from 8-10 not 9-10 2.Keys out of time should not deplete. Just let us play the key again. 3.Better checkpoints in dungeons some of them are shit and the runback alone makes a key harder than it should. 4.The affix where you lose 15s for a death seems way too harsh of a penalty, bring it down to 10s or so. Number 1. helps with gear progression and leavers/frustration. Number 2. helps mainly with players leaving and fear of depletion Number 3. just aliviates some timers and overall makes sense Number 4. helps with difficulty as key lvl increases and shoudl lower the number of leavers
Blizzard is famous for fixing one issue then creating 5 more issues. There was nothing wrong with the pace of gearing in DF especially given alot of people play alts now. All they had to do was fix affixes and they woulda had a great season 1.
Worst part is pugging as dps and u just dont get invited.. the dungeons are fine, but when u spend longer to get into a key than it takes to do it its not fun.. And then ur tank friend comes on 1 k lower rio than u and gets invited in a sec to the same key u just tried to get into for 1 hr..
@@MrrrrMime stupid take, people should be able to play the game on any role they want and not have to spend half of their time online begging for invites.
Im playing as DISC Priest and have some ideas, why PUG's is rought right now in M+: 1. To many changes for one season. Tank survivability nerfs, progression system kinda bad (you cant get enough gear to even start farming +9 in PUGs), CC nerfs (which is a lot btw) and new affixes sometimes generate INSANE difficulty even on +7. For example - good luck killing second or third boss in NW with lady ghost affiix or soak balls in GB. Уou cant eve do anything about that. 2. Gold costs are HUGE. Seriously, 15-20k for weapon chant? Rings are soo hard to chant - 6k for ring chant + 15k for sockets + ~8 for gems x2. ~100-120k for Omen Weapon + Wrist? Man, how can average player even farm that amount of gold at the start of the season? ->->-> BOOM, almost nobody doing that. Also, Flasks + Food + Oil = ~1k gold PER 1-2 dungeons. WTF!? 3. Not fair dungeon pool. Dungeon pool is fun, dont get me wrong, i like all bosses and trash BUT many healers just dont have answers for some situations. To many Poison things, to many casters and so much room for average PUG player to make a mistake and not every healer have decent "oh shit button" to save the day. 4. Difficulty is much much higher, compared to DF S4. This is a personal feeling, but i have hard time doing my +7 keys in PUGS because so many things can go wrong and so many times it does. And again, dont get me wrong, i like difficult things BUT not every PUG player like it too and this things start happening to early this season. And just calculate how much power ppl lost in the dungeons this season: average ilvl is lower (progression nerf) + no item chants (gold cost) + no food and consumables (gold cost) + tanks are squisher (lower pulls).
This season isn't hard. It's punishing. The biggest punishment comes from not knowing every little detail of a dungeon. But some details aren't even that little! I've scarily done numerous +9 City of Threads where people didn't know about the hologram buff and didn't route for it. People didn't know to grab the orbs in Stonevault. People didn't know to soak a bomb in Siege of Boralus if it's going to go off. Seriously, people need to learn the damn dungeons. They are not hard once you learn how to interrupt, how to use defensives (on actually dangerous abilities--not ones that simply drop your hp to 10% followed by 30 seconds of ZERO damage). This is why my keys fail, not tuning.
The real problem with Mythic + is the reward to effort required. The reward for a Mythic + 7 is a piece or perhaps 2 pieces of 610 gear for players. Piece, which, can't be traded. To do a Mythic 7+ (for most players, not talking the sweaty players who just run Mythic +) you need to be at least ilvl 610+ to make it through with time. This is doubly true for some keys, which I might add, you have no control over having. A Mythic Dawnbreaker is considerably faster than a Mythic Grim Batol or Mythic Seige of Boralus. Add in the fact that every mechanic is exceptionally unforgiving, even from trash, mistakes are severely punished, and you have a system where the reward to effort is disproportionate. I can solo run a delve at Tier 8 in 1/4 the time with 610+ gear and get Champion level gear and perhaps a Delver's Bounty for a 610 piece of gear. The rewards in the Great Vault are the same as a Mythic 7. It's frustrating because they are poorly tuned for many classes, the requirements for completing them are absurdly high, and the rewards are pathetic. If Blizzard made 2 changes, I think it would be helpful. 1). Every player should receive a piece of loot for completion. Even if it's in time or not. The loot should be tradable with players within the dungeon regardless of equipped Ilvl. 2). If you fail to complete the dungeon, the person whose key was used, is reset. You can run it again. Would players farm a specific tier of Mythic?? YES!!! That's a good thing. If you do Grim Batol 50 times for 610 gear, there's nothing wrong with that. We do that with Delves and Raids already. Why not Mythic +. The rewards need to be worth he effort. They aren't.
My main complaint is that gilded crests, while achievable, is much harder to get due to the sheer difficulty curve. Then the folks raiding mythic will be more geared than others, so they usually get priority pick over others trying to get to the same point.
Do your own groups then. Ofc people get more geared ppl for their keys if possible. I dont invite people under a certain score and ilvl. I tried many times and results were horrible
Thats what they wanted, they were screaming all over the internet that it is unfair that a normal pnot "super mythic pro player" get get the same gear as them. So Blizzard, been the 1% super mythic raider suckers, changed it for them. Now they can feel as the super heros again they think they are. screw the rest 99% of the player base.
The main issue is the crests and gearing. Difficulty isn't a big deal as it is only week 4. People will hit 10s consistently in a few more weeks, however running out of crests really sucks. I'm sitting on multiple sub 619 pieces all because I literally am capped and can't upgrade them. 2 weeks in a row I've hit cap and effectively am limited on how much I can upgrade in a week since I don't Mythic Raid.
Not really. Unless you stand in something or dont use your defensives' for things that require you to. Honestly this season just has a lot more consistent damage going out, but hardly things that will just one shot you regardless. This is coming from someone playing devastation evoker all season in 10's. The biggest complaint i had with some of the damage was at the start when we had some crazy overlaps in abilities that WOULD jsut one shot you. lol
@@Anivia92 Im only doing +5-7. Sometimes you run out of defensives or you don't have enough time to run out of something. I also think some Tyrannical bosses abilities are hitting really hard.
@@Stuwi Hmm the 2nd boss in Mist, if all the arrows are pointing at 1/4 of the circle and you are far away DPSing the clone. You won't have enough time to move out. I have seen plenty of melee being 1 shot every time.
@@ctk4949 you literally just described someone not getting out of a mechanic. "you wont have time to move out" ..... because you chose not to move out and dps an ad.
The problem is that if you don’t start grinding from the very beginning to a respectable io and gear up quick, no ones going to accept you for higher keys. Your stuck doing your own key and grinding out 9s while the ppl who were grinding 10hours a day had their 636 crafted gear, upgraded gear and most likely a myth track item from vault. By the time you catch up a little those same ppl who were ahead of you are still ahead and are the only ones who get invited. Unless you somehow ran your own key and timed a few 10s catching up. Or you were lucky enough to get invited to a completion 10 key. As a player who grinded from start, got lucky in heroic raid it has put me on the fortunate side of the spectrum. Playing a broken class like dk also helps. I run 10sand 11s I can’t tell you how many times i get in a group and see players at 2200 trying to get in a 10 while leader is waiting for 2500-2700 io players. Its very sad. It is for this reason i spend most of my time helping my guildies grind crests in 9s and get atleast 1 completed 10 for vault. Gl to all the players struggling out there
All I here is that not every casual in the game can get the max gear in the first few weeks because the game is to hard for them. Sry but the real Problem is not the tunning or slower gearing. The real Problem is the complete process from finding a group, then to be invited to this group In a reasonable time, People's behavior and leaving groups. People don't want to get better they want to outgear the content. And because allof this i find the changes realy good.
My goal went from getting portals to just get aotc/ksm and bounce. Wow gets this huge surge of players at the start of every expansion. I feel like blizz went the complete opposite direction if they wanted to keep more of those players around. 1 mistake at a 7+ is a wipe, 1 wipe is a depleted key.
As a casual player who only aim for portals I feel it´s really bad that access to mythic track gear happens at the same key level. first of it´s way harder to PuG with weaker gear and and 2nd when I reach my goal I have no reason to continue gearing up. Missing out on end game gear and the chase for it feels terrible. Imo crests should drop at 6 or 7s. that makes sense to reward players along with the added affix and give vault myth track from 8´s so there is a progression towards 10s. currently the vault rewards from a +2 to a +9 is basicly the same. This is just really bad design.
Not true at all. +10 keys right now are old +20. There was no reward before for anything above +20, just like there isn't a reward after +10 now. It's the exact same thing.
To anyone saying get good etc, i really think the main problem isnt the difficulty, its the fun! Like the interrupts change, sure it may be harder but it also just feels bad.
You can have 619 without any mythic crest, just by using your heroic crests. Are you really telling me +9 are a problem for players with 619 item level?
The only issue I have with m+ is the fact that they are EXTREMELY UNBALANCED. You get dungeon A key and you know that you will time 10 with your screen off but then you get dungeon B key and you know that you are screwed!
The highest tier crests are in such a low supply. I wish that both M+ dropped them earlier and that you could get them from t11 delves so that there was another reason to go higher than an 8
I haven't decided if I want to pug keys yet. I'm comfortably behind everyone in ilvl, I was weeks ago. You get left in the dust in this game now to the point where you contemplate uninstalling. You're never going to be at the same level as these people who are ahead of you by 20 ilvls when it actually matters and they're never going to stoop down to your level in the game to play with you. This experience I described doesn't feel like an MMO, it feels like some sort of MOBA match making or something. Everything is all segregated and off in it's own little bubble, so much for being an MMO.
They took the roles of tank and healer that were already in short supply, and made them miserable. I'm a tank and i feel so sorry for healers this season.
I like a challenge but this is absolutely godawful, I will go from one group in +7-8 range praise me for being the best healer they've ever had then in 9's and 10's the dps sit there and moan I'm the worst healer they've ever seen when they stand in frontals/aoe/don't use defensives. Like last night I had a Druid in a +9 stand in the pools after soaking on the 3rd boss CoT for half his health every time before he even considered moving then tried to flame me after for it. (Kazzak ofc).
@@Theparadoxd7 Amazing. I went into GB 7 with a group who did so little DPS that we depleted the key before we got to last boss despite having no deaths. Then one dies and i was having to use every global to stay alive (paladin) and because i didn't CR fast enough, group blamed me for not timing key because of it, haha. (I was 2nd on dps with 720k overall)
M+ has been the reason I played for years. I did several hundred keys a season across multiple characters since end of BfA, and I'm done with this. I'm raid logging right now, and log in to do a key on other nights if my friends beg me.
Healing this M+ season feels exhausting. And the death timer affix leads to everyone leaving a key after a single wipe. M+ has turned me off to playing as it used to be my favorite content
So basically blizzard start to not giving high end gear for free and everybody is crying. Last seasons were broken nobody kicked spells because you had VDH, i run 16 keys with almost 4 pulls in whole dungeons thats how easy was to get high end gear. Stop crying learn tact, kick on action bar, and macro with healing pot.
Yeah i said same thing cause i played as vdh so i saw people failing using kicks in 1 caster packs)))))this season closed +9 down on my prot 587 ilvl with randoms))))so the only problem is people lack skill.
Sooooo many issue: first too mechanics heavy, second tuning out of whack , third affixes, fourth the stops/kick revamp joke, fifth reward at Lower lvl, 6th scaling , 7th hp pump makes thank and healing by sucks even more, 8th crest amount,9th death penalty timer and so on
By far the worst M+ ever. Zero and mean ZERO FUN! Meta means more now just to get into a GD key. Balance of class's are is Dogshit. I could go on. I seen a post on World of Warcraft Forums, asking who are they making M+ for now? I say the Sweatlords. All casuals should unsub. Blizzard needs the Ubisoft treatment.
This is completely incorrect, its the exact opposite, right now i.o means more then it ever has relative to Meta because its an indication you can survive keys and not be part of compiling deaths, the truth is most wow players found out they are pretty bad and they don't like that, no longer can you monkey your way to 3k with 25 deaths a run, you need to play clean and get rewarded for it, and wow players hate that.
@@Bigmythicplusboi Thanks for proving the point, not the casuals, Just the Sweatlord. The casuals should take the sub money and go home. Pick up a controller and have fun. No need for addons, 20 weakauras.
@@Bigmythicplusboi typical sweatlord stance, you do realize you won't have a game if even the upper mid of the pack no longer cares about playing the game. The actually good players, the high end ones. Not wannabee's like you are commenting about how bad the game design is atm.
I honestly dislike the key squish. The larger/wider scale allowed for more opportunities for players to make baby steps in io, working toward the next reward level, etc. and then allowed for the push players to have again a wider scale to push their scores. Now with the +12 affix just making every key ridiculous, it feels like as soon as I get to 10s/11s there's no use in even playing anymore because I'm not in a full 5 stack and pugging a 12 is basically futile. Whereas if it was the way it was before with the wider scale, allowing for more exponential buffing of the dungeon difficulty, you could remove the +12 style affix and give players more of a ladder to climb which feels way more rewarding.
I think the problem is that the current system focuses too hard on the hardcore players. You have the no lifers who only play wow who want the upgrade cycle to be able to last them until the next tier. Those players are for the most part happy with the crest system because it gives them a reason to keep playing once they get their gear to fully upgrade it. The problem is the average player who might only run 2 or 3 +10 keys a week is going to have a horrible time trying to gear up and it quickly becomes annoying to gear. You quickly hit this plateau within a few weeks of hero level gear and now have no real upgrades outside of your weekly chest. On top of that you have the issue where it just takes forever to get the crests you need to upgrade fully. It doesn't help that the death penalty affix makes it more toxic than ever for wipes. At least before a wipe wasn't that punishing, now a wipe is pretty much a key ender. For me I just pretty much stop playing when I reach that point now. I frankly hated the zoom zoom mentality of M+ and the timers anyways. At this point I just decided not to fuck with M+ anymore I stopped finding it fun. I Just do the heroic raid and delves for the most part. At this point I probably will only log in one day a week to do the raid and vault. I just play something else that sounds fun or catch up on my backlog of games. Personally I actually prefer this now since I don't feel pressured to play wow to keep up since I changed my mentality on it.
M+ score grinders are their own problem. Look in the mirror and ask yourself why you aren't in a static party. Why do you expect so much from random players?
Because some people don't have static schedules??? Not sure why you can't figure that out that some people have real life commitments but don't suck ass at games. I'm 2604 io byw
And because no matter how hard I try I can't find a group of static players. Been in 4 guilds and 3 communities and no one is running keys. They advertise that they do, but then no one does. So what choice do I have left? They made this game mostly solo and that's how the players are engaging with it and don't want to group.
The player base is getting old. People don't have the patience to create static groups or yield about mechanics. Everyone wants short term engagement with this game. They will not care about paying 15$ month ... Just rotate the old content 😊
tbh i find the war within not as fun as i expected. outside of using hero talents i don't have much fun. people called Dragonflight mediocre but i thought it was great and loved the theme overal as well. delves are good for vault tho. very good
if you aren't a havoc,frost dk, aug, enh, it's really hard to get in grps, your RIO needs to be at least 100-150 higher than with all others. ppl are extremely meta bitchy currently and that's without MDI even taken place so far...wtf the problem with the 15s death penalty is if u have a full grp wipe --> 75s timer loss + running + redoing the grp/boss prog... it's in 9/10 a rip key. i don't mind, that myth track gear is behind +10keys, because we are still 10-15ilvl under this seasons max ilvl of 639...but i understand it's not casual friendly.
Could we look into data of total number of M+ runs of this season vs S1 DF? But give context to these numbers given TWW launch was with much higher subs than DF launch? I wonder if what I see on my friend/guild list is true for the entire game, no one is running M+ which we'd normally be doing a ton of. Thanks for the content and I appreciate your data analysis.
I do feel the difficulty bump this season, but largely the problem I face is I'm just stuck at the Runed crest key range of 4-8 and a lot of the pugs I've been playing in, people join and have no idea what they are doing and off doing their own thing for mechanics or the tank pulls extremely small packs and other mistakes just lead to a deplete for a couple of crests. It takes so long to upgrade gear out of this range. The amount of times I've told people to aim every 3rd hook at the boss platform pre-emptively, stack together on 1st boss in Arakara for the pool drops, stacking on the last boss in CoT...people just don't listen. On the rare occasion, might luck out and join a full pug that is good, but 95% of the time, the experience is miserable.
Feels like we took 1 step forward, 2 steps back. I do think there's light at the end of the tunnel. I appreciate the "kiss curse" concept, but it feels unpolished. I don't mind the +7 death timer because it encourages clean play, but the reward should be the ability to earn the highest level crests at the same key level. I enjoy the dungeon pool right now, but I think the bottom half of timeable dungeons need to have timing/damage output adjusted.
The one thing they need to remove is the 15 seconds. As a healer, I am feeling overwhelmed by the fact that it I let somebody die once, that's 15 seconds gone. I am not a good player, I slowly went up to m5-6, doing one level at a time, but I feel the jump from 6 to 7 is too much. You basically need to have a zero death perfect run.
The main problem is pug mentality in the community. I've never seen the reliance of meta classes so much before because the disparity between them is so massive.
I think the biggest issue for me is getting stuck in limbo with an 8 key when ur 9 key is bricked. It's especially a stone wall when u get an 8 necrotic wake or stonevault that no one would even dare to try due to it basically having no worthwhile reward xd
Giving gilded crests again from +6 would pretty much solve the problems players have with the system. And maybe lower gilded crests needed to craft 636 back down to 60 too.
