Is True Peak Limiting a Lie? What You Need to Know! 

This is absolutely brilliant. Game changing approach. Facts not opinions, I love it. Keep it up man

The amount of valuable info you put out here for free is just mind blowing.

What an absolutely brilliant video. Thank you so much for compiling this information. You've really helped me out here!

Solid video, very entertaining, I have learnt a lot here and gives a lot of thoughts. Not much advanced nitty gritty mastering content out there, so really appreciate the content! Literally confirmed my thoughts on TP and as to why I may prefer it off. Would it be possible for you to explore more topics like this? I also appreciate your videos regarding marketing. So maybe you could do some sort of 'how to build your sound engineering business' type video. Would be cool to hear your expertise on how to get more clients if you already have a few and in general how scale your mixing/mastering business! Thanks again Nicholas, look forward to watching the next one.

Don't forget that oversampling ALWAYS requires filtering, and filtering ALWAYS messes with phase and/or volume. If you set a non-oversampled limiter up to brickwall at, say, -6 dBfs, then there will not be any peaks above -6 dBfs, full stop. (Except potential inter-sample peaks, but the limiter doesn't know that.) If you switch oversampling on in that limiter, the filters used in the downsampling stage will either create pass-band or stop-band ripples, i.e. volume instabilities, looks like a little sine wave going along the spectrum, up and down, up and down. Filters with low or no pass-band ripples usually have a lot of stop-band ripples, and filters with low or no stop-band ripples usually have a lot of pass-band ripples. In some filters, the ripples can even be adjusted, so you can balance e.g. towards a steeper cutoff slope with more pass-band ripples, or towards a wider cutoff slope but with fewer stop-band ripples. If a filter creates ripples in the pass-band, i.e. the already brickwall limited signal that goes into the downsampling filter, this means that the previously brickwalled target volume of -6 dBfs no longer applies, since the ripples raise (and lower, but that doesn't matter for peak brickwalling) the volume above that -6 dBfs level at certain spectral ranges. And if the filter is set to create no ripples in the pass-band, then it will create ripplies (i.e. "signal leftovers") in the stop-band, which should be "as completely quiet as possible". Remaining signal in the stop-band means: things that shouldn't be there when the signal is decimated/sample-reduced again, so effectively - aliasing. Aliasing as in signal that wasn't there before, but now creates resonances and dips, throwing the spectrum and volume out of balance yet again. So there it is. When oversampling, you have the choice between throwing the spectrum and volume of your already brickwalled signal off again by filter ripples or by aliasing. Either way, what comes out of a limiter that SHOULD brickwall at -6 dBfs but oversamples the audio path, is NOT going to be brickwalled at -6 dBfs anymore. Same goes for distortion or clipping processors. A non-oversampled hard-clipper can reliably cut off any sample (!) value above a certain ceiling, but it can not detect and reduce inter-sample peaks. An oversampled hard-clipper can reliably detect and reduce inter-sample peaks, but the output volume after the down-sampling filter will be entirely random and not hard-clipped. In the end, you either go for accurately brickwalled volume at the risk of missing inter-sample-peaks, or you go for no inter-sample peaks at the cost of losing brickwalled volume. There's no inbetween. Some people run oversampled anti-ISP limiters and clippers first, followed by non-oversampled brickwall limiters and/or clippers, that only shave the odd 1-2 dB or so off here and there. But non-oversampled always means: aliasing. As well as the (highly likely) danger of generating new inter-sample peaks from it. 🤷‍♀

Hey good to see you here on RU-vid! Killer video man, very informative and helpful for understanding what's going on when I'm limiting!

This is great info. Thanks for the research and video. I’ve been doing experiments with multi-band metering and noticed my true peak levels were off compared to the broadband. After your video I think the intersample peaks may be the issue.

Great content mate 🙏🏻

So, the best way to test TP limiting against normal limiting would be to match gain reduction. Anyone thinking TP limiting sounds worse is most likely hearing the extra limiting happing. Correct?

Outstanding work and much appreciated.

Thanks man, much appreciated!

Thxs for sharing your knowledge with us, Pure gold ❤

Production value on these vids is top notch

This was gold :) thank you so much :)

I would be super grateful for a realistic audio comparison example between no oversampling, oversampling and true peak limiting. Even better would be a blind test with _the great reveal_ afterwards .

Looking forward to this

Best Audio Channel on RU-vid!!!

Awesome content!!!! Thank you so much!

Very helpful, excellent.

Great video. Wouldn’t this underread issue also apply to compression plugins? Unless they oversample?

absolute great, i thought everytime to not use to much oversampling.

Wow this was mind blowing, thanks for sharing this info with us.

Great Video!

So, with the Pro L2, is there any advantage to using 16 or 32 x oversampling? (I generally leave it on 32 as my M1 seems okay with that CPU load-wise) How does TP and oversampling interact? If I'm oversampling at 32 is there any point in also having TP on?

Thank you for all of your super informative videos, and the enthusiasm with which you share this cutting-edge information :). My only question is with regards to using the Ozone Maximizer, I don't believe we're able to turn on oversampling without engaging the true peak, which engages oversampling when it's turned on. Since this is the case would you recommend using a different limiter in order to oversample without engaging true peak, or is the Ozone Maximizer doing something different under the hood where it's true peak isn't affecting things in the same way? Thanks so much!

So, i always used true peak limiter, should i stop? i didnt understanding correctly, causes all music we download on traxsource or beatport, when you run trough the youlean loudness meter, they are clipped above the 0 db... all music, all artists all clipped, i dont know what to do anymore, causes i think i am wrong mastering in wav wihout clipping, i always target bellow the 0 db..

Wow nice, this has been very informative! Thanks! Now it makes sense why I don't like the sound of TP limiting. It's actually just increasing the precision which results in more compression from the limiter.

It s difficult to understand ...but it seems pertinent !!!!! But what i like with you Nicholas ; very often you "ve mathematical approach !!! and for me it's not the best and easier way .But losing habits is the key to change and with a little luck , to evolve. . Cheers 😎🌍.... 🐌

Nice video man! I've also asked Fabian several DSP questions in the past as well haha! He's such a nice and helpful human being. The one question that is killing me after watching this video is: does the truepeak limiting mode in L2 also get rid of aliasing the same way as 8x oversampling? I'm wondering if there is a difference in the AA filters or if it's literally just a shortcut to 8X oversampling... Nice job doing your research - wish there were more people out there putting in this much effort and research before making a video. Might I make a kind suggestion to maybe add a references section to your description for future videos when you pull literature from the web so others can more easily find the same sources that you use in your videos? Cheers man!

One thing I clearly hear on normal limiters and true peak limiters, is that true peak limiters are more "agressive". I definitely hear they catch too much of a signal, same gain reduction applied. For super loud materials, there's no way I keep using them. All references masters I do have from other studios, don't use True Peaks as well. The amount of True Peak volume above 0 is incredible, lot of tracks peaks +2dB TP (sometimes even more). Not that I like it, but clearly these same tracks with TP Limiters sounds ass. For streaming purposes, I use them, but I make sure it does not limit more than 0.2 gain reduction, or not even go through threshold, just a safe spot to follow streaming recommandations. Beeing that said, very informative video, thank you! Wish we could get that much of infos in French, that was hard to follow at some points >< It's extremely technical! I still miss some vocabulary.

Interestingly when i have my Pro L2 set to 32x oversampling it still is different to 32x oversampling + true peak on. Does it oversample twice?

This is absolutely gold. Thank you so much for everything you do. I have one remaining question - can it be said that the True Peak Button is roughly the same as the 8x oversampling setting? So in the end it wouldn't really matter (assuming I want 8x oversampling on this particular track) if I turn on True Peak OR put the oversampling at 8x, right?

Thanks for the science it was awesome!

this is highly enlightening thaks a lot

Awesome analysis

On the Ozone Maximizers i still don’t like ultimately what the True Peak button does to the sound. Even when dialed back. Do you think it’s worth the hassle of pulling up something like DDMF Metaplugin to oversample it? If so, what’s the multiplier you recommend?

thank you so much man.

are truepeaks even something worth worrying about if you're working with an agressive genre like dubstep and doing your final stage of limiting with a clipper instead of a limited. I mean if something gets past the clipper and... clips... well then it's just doing what it's supposed to do.

Lol at first I was like " I can't even understand this guy he is crazy", then I play and pause a lot of times and investigate terms on Google, and OMG lol you are a genius.

these sort of issues happen in all sorts of places in the digital domain... don't worry about oversampling, just work at 88.2, 96, 176 or 192kHz 😊

I'm not sure if this is in the video but this applies to 48 kilohertz sample rate and The oversampling required is less proportionally for higher sample rates.

Great Video(As usual) so basically true peak limiting is the same as limiting with upsampling?

Finally I understand why it is a good thing to do oversampling! Something wrong with 32x oversampling AND TP-Limiting at the same time?

Did any of the developers talk about peak detection in the input signal vs the sidechain? I'm curious if they had any comments about dealing with the ringing from the interpolation filter.

Since you're referring to Pro-L for the most part, why no mention of 16x or 32x oversampling?

Nico I remember years ago listening to Steve Duda telling Deadmou5 to have the limiter output set to -3db because of intersample peaking. I'm guessing this is what he was talking about? Thanks for the vid!

I'm surprised that you didn't switch to Reaper yet, since Reaper has built in ReSampling for plugins and the FX chain that can function on any plugin, and you can go up to X32...and many more amazing options to optimize Reaper for Mastering application...

Very informative!

Thanks!

Great demo about this. I had to wonder if true peak limiting was a good thing. I've been using it, but with so many saying it's bad, makes you consider. So it seems true peak limiting or 4-8X oversample gives similar results, and neither change the audio perceptibly. I'll have to switch between true peak and oversample to see what happens. Right now I'm clipping into an SSL X-Limit. Other limiters I've got: LVC Limited-MAX, TDR Limiter 6 GE, Venomode Maximal 3, Nugen ISL-2, stock Studio One, Slate FG-X2 in their Complete bundle, D16 Frontier...

i just bought brainworx true peak and have other limiters including sonible...even from the first few minutes of your thoughtful and detailed presentation style (first time seeing your channel) ...subbed! 👍🏻

I am struggling to understand. Does this mean TP Limiting is actually more accurate and a good thing? When I test the same production of mine on TP meters and sites there is a warning when I leave it off and the TP Is almost 0.5 higher.

Just want to make sure I understand something you said at the end. The best thing is probably to use a normal limiter with over sampling rather than True Peak. Is that right?

how about 8x oversampling with the True Peak limiter like Pro-L2, which has the option to do both. Is there any benefit to it compared to the non-TP limiter with equal amount of OS ?

i love u so much bro, thanks very much

Thanks for your video. What about the limiters that do not offer oversampling only TP limiting? - Ozone Maximizer + Vintage Limiter - TDR Limiter 6GE Would you still set your ceiling at -0.2 dB TP?

So after all of this knowledge you've gained, will you use TP limiting on your next masters or you decide to stick to your previous way of working without using TP limiting?

mind blowing! what a best seller

True that !!! Done the experiment before

Wow, you're technical

Great video, you're really passionate about mastering we should work one day, I'll make you my mastering engineer. Also I've been oversampling my limiter to x16 on Reaper since forever.

There’s a matter of fact that DACs can handle overshoots over 0 with no problem, with no distortion. DACs are designed with some headroom above 0dBFS.

So basically true peak limiting sounds worse because it does more gain reduction than non peak true limiting, with the same threshold setting. right?

Every analog device can handle few dbs over zero..so is TP really needed ?

Hello, first of all thanks for your study, for people who are not engineers like me it is difficult to understand a little ... but I think I'm getting your idea, I would be eternally grateful if you solve my doubts as a novice. 1.- according to your study, it is more convenient in Fab Filter Pro L2 to deactivate ''True Peak limiting'', leave it deactivated and activate ''Oversampling'' to x8. If I can opt for x32 is it much better? 2.- when I am mastering a disc of my music, I put a L2 and at the end of the chain a '' Youlean loudness '', and in '' True Peak max '' it marks me in red according to my '' output '' in fabfilter L2, I explain me .... The peaks stop appearing in red only when put in my Fabfilter L2, in ''output'' at -1db. 3.- after doing that I have another problem... my numbers in the ''master channel'' don't reach 0-db... but my limiter solves the peaks... but at the same time it doesn't let me reach -0db in the master... this confuses me a little, since I need to upload my music to Spotify... I'm sorry if I'm confusing, I'm from latinamerica. 4.- if i have all my songs separately, mastered and i want to join them all in a daw to join them and sound one after another, should i put a limited? or should i just put them all, export in wav and ready ... please this topic also confuses me a lot ....

Great. Video. So what happened when I clip a signal, with a clipper, then I have only one peak = true peak . Or I am wrong ? Thanks

Sorry my expression but this info is fucking awesome!!! - Thanks for that amazing research!

So you’re simply saying turning on true peak and over sampling is best right??

I always separate True Peak limiting into its own stage after my main limiter. Since it detects higher peaks than a standard limiter, it would cause my main limiter to overwork itself for the same result. As such, I've found it best to have it separately to catch the errant True Peaks here and there, while my main limiter does the actual limiting.

So.... should I bother with True peak limiting, or just say screw it and leave it off like 99% of the top 40 mixes? haha (awesome video btw, subbing now)

How about less is more with fewer tracks in the mix? True peak limiter works better?

the basic, use it since yearssssss, why people still use the bad representation of zero order hold. Of course true peak don't get a sound just increase your precision. At sametime not all oversampling are the same in limiter. With some in *4 output -0,3 db you set a true peak meter after you will never clip, and some at same setting still clipping. So spend time to learn and measure your stuff. So with basic limiter no oversampling or true peak a -1 db output like apple ask is good, but if you get good limiter you can win 0,7db. Wav master at -0,3 db convert in MP3 320 you get less than 50 true peak clipping, in most commercial track you can get 20 000

but true peak uses less or more cpu than just 8x?

Proved it myself

Well, I don't hear any distortion with intersample clipping or mushed transients with true peak limiting... It's exactly the same for me.

Wow :)

Very interesting, I imagine this was quite time consuming to put together so thank you. I think this maybe this is one of those occasions that makes sense in theory but not in practice, because I'm pretty sure that most of us (I assume it's not just me😂) can easily hear that it sounds worse when TP is engaged, than when it's turned off. It's about the easiest test you can do, just toggle it on and off and you can clearly hear the difference.

Ohhhhhhh that ISSS what's happening... You see I theorized this last week in a much less technical way, but because I often don't turn on true peak until I've already dialed it the limiter I always turned it back off immediately because of what it did to the transient information, plus... I haven't been aiming for Apple Digital Masters anyways 😳

works gj

I'll stick with a clipper 😉

Hope you'll at least get Pro-L3 for free, these lessons are pure gold

True Peak sucks transients and punch, as well as oversampling in PRO L2 for example..

Great info but in real life you won't get a loud master using true peak. It's sucks all the life out of a track if you push a track hard into a TP brick wall limiter.

“While we gain knowledge we also gain ignorance” or indifferent? How did you say it? I think that’s actually true! 😂 haters gonna hate

hahsdhahah good

Nice work. BUT, could you please give people a little more time to consume your waterfall of words? Faster than a spanish grandmother on Amphetamine.

Pro L 2 has the most audible sound quality difference when engaging oversampling than any other plugin I know.

Eight minutes of word salad. Thanks.

This is all not relevant and doesn't help you to build a great song! 🚧 Forget all this nifty stuff and concentrate on song creating. Otherwise you waste your lifetime for nuts!

Thanks for clearing that out 🫶

There is far to many technical BS videos about music on RU-vid stop wasting time trying to learn how to micro manage every tiny little issue that may not even be an issue after you've mixed your track, none of this crap even mattered 20 years ago ferry corstens track " out of the blue" wasn't even saturated or compressed and still went on to blow the roof off clubs and hit number 1 in the dance charts, as long as you have the very basic of plugins instead of wasting money of big expensive plugins that are not needed at all, then have a good arrangement good leveling have a clean low boomy sub, and crank up the mid range your 99% done. Music has now become all about sound quality and not about making a great track which is why there is a huge avalanche of shit being produced compared to the 90s.