03:33 It was an important moment in my recovery when I realized that Chist felt his suffering like we do. Previously, I thought Chist was so divine that he sort of floated above the suffering--detached. In that moment of epiphany, I felt love, respect, and gratitude for him.
Reminds me of a song called "Alone" by My Epic, which seems to ruminate in that exact sentiment. Even now, after reading the rest of Psalm 22, and seeing that its actually a hint towards the resurrection-pattern, I can see that in the song as well, whatever its technical-confusions.
And if you keep following the psalms after that one you get "lift up the gates O ye princes, and be lifted up O ancient doors, *that the king of glory may come in*"
And it also says in verse 24 "For He has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; Nor has He hidden His face from Him; > But when He cried to Him, He heard. < - Psalms 22:24
There are a number of other allusions to Psalm 22 on the cross. The Psalm talks about his body being a worm. But not any worm, specifically the crimson worm - a creature that was crushed to release a red dye, which was used to colour the Roman uniforms. The worm would lay its eggs, turn red protecting them and then die for its offspring to feed on its body. It turned white three days later. The soldiers throwing lots for Jesus clothing is directly mentioned. Jesus talking about his mouth being dry (when he is offered the vinegar) is there in the Psalm. When the Psalm ends it talks about "they will talk about what was accomplished", which was referred to when Christ says "it is accomplished". Why did the centurion convert whole Christ was on the cross? I think it was because Jesus was preaching a sermon on Psalm 22. A sermon so powerful that a man being executed as a slave was able to convince one of his executioners of his deity.
Jesus, fully God eternal, and fully human, in suffering and death. we all experience this sense of being forsaken, but with faith and hope in the eternal life, the resurrection even of our bodies. overcoming thru death. the mystery. momentary.
Psalm 22 is rich with imagery that parallels the scene of the crucifixion. For example, verses 7-8 read "All who see me mock me; they sneer at me; they shake their heads; 'Commit your cause to the Lord; let him deliver - let him rescue the one in whom he delights!'" This reminds me of Matthew 27:41-42, "'In the same way, the chief priests, scribes, and elders mocked Him, saying, 'He saved others, but He cannot save Himself. He is the King of Israel! Let Him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in Him.'"
Great point Jonathan, Christ was fulfilling EVERYTHING throughout his life, ministry, death and resurrection. It shouldn't be a surprise he echoes previous and future revelation during his time on this earth.
If we remember that Jesus is the Word of God, we can think of this moment as God’s Word speaking back to the speaker (the Father), asking why he had forsaken his own Word-left his Word to die, to be slandered, to be mocked, to be manipulated. But we know the Father is overflowing with faithful love and he does not forsake his children, and he does not turn back on his Word. Hence, the Father resurrects the Word, proving that Jesus is indeed the Word of God, perfectly embodying the will of the Father (just as our own spoken words embody our will, albeit imperfectly). Such a dynamic is constantly foreshadowed. Think of Moses interceding for the Israelites. Moses asks God why he would destroy the Israelites after they made the golden calf and in doing so turn back on his word and promise. God then seemingly “relents” and keeps his word-God does not betray his Word.
Slavoj Zizek suggested (in an in a discussion with Jordan Peterson) that this cry meant that not even God could handle being human. For some reason this statement has stuck in my head.
Kind of a strange thought. What would properly “handling” humanity be like? Immune from pain? Detached from tragedy? Perfect in everything you do? Ironically if man wasn’t made in the image of God and had tasted paradise, statements like that wouldn’t make any sense.
Hey Jordan, can you do a talk on the Worm found in Psalm 22? The word worm isn’t just a generic worm but a specific type of worm. I haven’t heard you refer to it yet and the symbolism of the life cycle of the Crimson Worm blows my mind.
Agree! Jesus was the pattern of relationship with his father for us to follow. "Why have you forsaken me," is what could have been asked at the expulsion from the Garden in Genesis or before, had they realized what was going on. THIS is the necessary dilemma of mankind. But in the death, burial, resurrection pattern that we also may follow, God has not forsaken anyone.
Thanks for this insight. To me what is said is the truth. Christ was in all energy at this moment and planted a seed in the minds of a generation. The man Christ was lifted up for all to see. You look at this symbol and realize God has left it up to us to continue this during the forth coming generation. Lift your aim up a notch and live as this man does, because you own your own actions on your own accord..please be good...for awhile.
Regarding those words, my understanding was that Christ in that moment took the ownership of the human nature, embodied the human nature which felt forsaken by God. So He embodied the human nature in Hell so He can bring it in His Kingdom and repair the broken connection between humanity and God.
I think that is the point of realization that God developed his consciousness and that leads up to the death and resurrection, a transcendental state. You can draw parallels between Job and Jesus Christ because Job asked God the same thing.
Amazing , i also see it that the crown of thrones represents our own ego , all our pain comes from our minds and illusion of self , the ego wants to be king but its painful to our soul , and when we cruscify our desires towards the material world , we become apathia we become dead towards the illusion of self , the ego dies and jesus rises in us our soul recieves the water from christ , we enter GODs rest ( sabath ) after GODs rest our soul rises , it have a lot of deep meanings the bible is a lifetime study , also jesus said i thirst but they gave him sour wine wich means we cannot offer GOD anything , we are useless , only GOD can water us and give us life , eternal life ☦️
I’ve often wondered if Jesus was experiencing a similar separation from the Father that Adam experienced due to sin. Was He bridging that gap for mankind that was created way back in the garden? It could be that it was this spiritual death or separation that Jesus restored and that is the primary focus of resurrection. Thoughts?
He wasn’t “really” asking the question. He was referring to the first line of a psalm that was written 600-800 years earlier that predicted his crucifixion. He was saying to those people who were believers, “Remember Psalm 22”. He was also giving a reason for those who’s hearts are hard to reject him. Crazy deep stuff…
If you haven't discovered that you are a communion of sub-personalities then damn, I have news for you. Pay attention to your thoughts. You ARE dialogue (ideally prayer). And so is the Holy Trinity.
Read Psalm 22...Jesus was: 1) telling everyone who he is and that he was ending death for all who believe in him, and 2) giving the rebellious spirit beings the clear message that their time of ruling nations will be ended by his mighty hand...See: Psalm 82.
In Luke's Gospel, Psalm 31 is quoted instead. The theme is identical to Psalm 22, although the opening words aren't as potentially confusing. You could argue Luke sacrifices some of the richness for clarity.
With all respect ,it doesn't sound similar with the writings of the Saints .Your 4 min ish theology is far off than less 2min reading theology of Saint Nikolai "These words show the helplessness of the human nature, the farsightedness - for it is man who suffers. Here, however, beneath human suffering lies a mystery. These words alone could have crushed the heresy that would later shake the Church and which wrongly taught that the divinity suffered on the Cross. But the eternal Son of God became incarnate as a man precisely in order that He might, as a man, with body and soul, suffers for man and dies for man at the appointed time; for if the divinity suffered in Christ, it means that the divinity died in Him - and this is inconceivable." -Saint Nikolai Velimirovich
This is my understanding. Jesus quoted scripture many times. He quoted scripture when he was tempted by the devil as an example. In those days, the Bible wasn't divided into chapters and numbered verses. To reference a part of scripture, a person would quote the beginning of it and people knew what followed.
Read Psalm 22 and your mind will be blown. It’s pretty clear. Crucifixion didn’t exist when it was written. Also look into the worm described in that chapter as well. It’s a pretty amazing description and symbol of Jesus’ sacrifice
Wonder what Yeshua would think if you could bring him 2k years into the future. I rather doubt the blood soaked history of the faith he founded would be any less shocking to him than the endless tide of neckbeards and men too weak to produce anything else endlessly pontificating on platforms built by their betters.
@@YuitoScarlet or those who have the remotest interest in historical accuracy, but by all means keep that antisemitism flag flying, let us all know who to shun.
Psalm 22 is David's cry. Jesus is the descendant of David, and he cries out in the same pattern of David-not God. God didn't write Psalm 22, God is the Lord of all nations, not just Israel. David rode on a donkey, David was the king of Israel. Why Christians refuse to see this is just almost comical. Even you struggle, because you're too smart for the deception, but you feel like it's baked into the story, but it's not. They changed the whole concept of Christ, of True God, they implemented the formulas/creeds which have been deceptive and destructive ever since. Christianity doesn't need the confusions, it can go back to devotional clarity, pre-Nicene, pre-Constantine days of service unto the Supreme, with the story of Jesus pointing the way, and acting as a model for the righteous and true Kingdom, the King of Truth. Not the Most High God. It's not even what the scriptures say. It's obfuscation and interpretation. It's not originally there, and unhelpful.
i'm interested in what you're saying but i'm not sure i totally understand your point. can you clarify? feel like what's "baked into the story?" thanks
@@superstitiousfishes1247 The Gospel of John got tossed in with the cookie dough that was comprised of the synoptics. There were many Jesus books circulating prior to the institutionalization of Christianity, which was an historic progression having little to do with the Historic Jesus as seen by later archeological and textual discoveries. It's hard to argue that the Gospel of John doesn't completely change the story, and it has been shown to be the latest canonical Gospel, and thus part of the historical progression of thought, which was an deliberate attempt to change Jesus from Messiah into God Himself-a philosophical concept not necessarily developed by the apostles themselves or their cults that survived them. Additionally, the earliest Jesus documents would be the letters of Paul, and Paul develops his own Christology, as he never knew Jesus, and fought with the Jerusalem cult that directly succeeded Jesus in the desert and for the endtimes of Jerusalem, which met its destiny with Titus in 70 AD-an apocalypse for the Jewish story, but not all humanity, nor the end of time (as perhaps Jesus was preaching). Thus we can see the humanity of Jesus throughout, and this doesn't mean he wasn't Divine. I argue that he was the incarnation of the Jupiter energy, which is Zeus, Ba'al, and other cultures name this energy variously, but it is the God of the angels, just as the Venus energy is the Luciferian energy, and is the leader of the demons. Jesus was able to cast out demons, and just as Jupiter saves our solar system from all sorts of intruders (interstellar objects) so this great incarnation one of the energies of God was trying to save humanity from a greater destruction, and bring about change in the world through his gravity and powers. But nothing is God but God. God does not climb up onto the cross and call out for himself, God is being cried out to, which means God remains the God of all things, the transcendental and Most High God of every creature, not just those who say the Nicene Creed and confess Christ/Messiah, King of Jews. And then God is EVERYTHING, which means on some level you are God, I am God, this phone is God, nothing is separate, nothing is different from Him. And to claim to be the soul-self is to claim to be self-realized, which means the self of all souls, and this is what Jesus would have claimed; except no one claims this, it is something recognized by others, when this clarity is held within the mind of the seer, the redeemer through teaching the Truth. The Christ-consciousness, as experienced by Paul, is then the deepest layer of our own consciousness, and the means to salvation for all, but could be termed variously-Atman, in Vedic literatures, for example. The Aten in Egypt; the Adam, the origin of man (corrupted by Eve, the rib, the flesh).
@@lukefromdenver7609 (Col. 2:9) "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily." (Is. 7:14) "...a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel." (which means "God with us"; see also Matt. 1:23) (Is. 9:6) "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace." (1 Tim. 3:16) "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."
@@lukefromdenver7609 There are many issues with your stament. First, the trinity ie the idea that Yahweh exists as 3 different persons, is an OT idea (look for "two powers in heaven"). Take for example Isaiah " Listen to me, Jacob, Israel, whom I have called: I AM; I am the first and I am the last. My own hand laid the foundations of the earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens; when I summon them, they all stand up together.Come together, all of you, and listen: I, even I, have spoken; Come near me and listen to this: From the first announcement I have not spoken in secret; The Lord God has sent me, and His Spirit" Thus sayeth the Lord, the Holy one of Israel. Second, there exists inside the OT the idea that the Messiah is both the Son of David and somehow Yahweh himself. One example is the promise of God to David in 2nd Samuel 7:16 versus 1st Chronicles 17:14 where david's line is established in his house and kingdom in the former but in God's house and God's kingdom in the later. A second example is psalm 45 where the writer proclaims to the messiah that he is "handsome amongst the sons of men" and yet a few verses later he also proclaims to the same person "Thy throne, oh God, is to the ages, for that reason, oh God, thine God has established thee above thine companions by anointing thee with the oil of joy". Third, Jesus makes (IN THE SYNOPTICS) two specific statements. The first is a quote from Psalm 110 (in hebrew thought when you quote a line you are supposed to read all the passage) "The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool". If you read the greek Septuagint, which is what's being quoted by the synoptics, God says a couple of verses later "From the womb of my belly I have begotten thee before the Lucipher /Morningstar." If, according to Jesus, the person God speaks to here is the Messiah, then how exactly is God betetting them out of His own essence (from the womb of my belly) before time (before the Lucipher /Morningstar), unless this Messiah is also God himself somehow? The second is an allusion to daniel "from now on you shall see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven". With the single exception of this instance in Daniel, all the other times someone is riding the clouds, its always Yahweh. In fact that's a Canaanite motif used to characterise the king of the gods and its exclusively deity language. That's why the high priest tears his vestments and pronounces "blasphemy". Fourth, there are passages in the OT like 12 zachariah :In that day, saith the Lord, I will smite every horse with astonishment,[...] And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. Given that only Yahweh speaks in 1st person in this chapter, how exactly is he supposed to be pierced? And his exact phrase is quoted by Matthew as proof that scripture was fulfilled with the crucifiction. And these are just to name a few, let alone that historically the "evolution" thing doesn't work due to the abundance of extra-biblical sources to the opposite.
