With pallet forks, I'd love to have a self leveling loader. I have to be really careful with pallet forks to keep leveling and adjusting, it's sometimes tedious. For a bucket, though, I'll stick with the regular loader.
Nice job showing a NSL and MSL versions of the same FEL side by side! I've never see it done that way before. And yes, the "binding" issue you saw will show up on most MSL FELs if you fully dump the bucket at full height and then try to lower the FELs booms with the bucket in that fully dumped position. At full dump, the bucket will be up against its dump limiting stops. As the boom lowers, the MSL linkage bars are trying to "maintain" that dump position by pushing forward on the top of the bucket cylinders. Since the bucket is already up against its dump stops, it cannot "dump" any more and the boom cylinders will bind. So yes, there is an operational difference between a MSL vs NSL FEL in this situation. However, you'd normally want to return the bucket curl position to a level to the ground, or fully curled back, position any way in preparation for the next loading operation. At least that was my experience with my JD 4720 CUT and 400CX MSL FEL.
The more I see of the Deere MSL, the more I like my NSL. It is not a difficult thing to feather the dump and curl while raising and lowering the boom arms. The apparent lack of curl when scooping up a load is disappointing, as is their advertised extra load capacity that seems to be nonexistent per your previous videos.
I have found the sweet spot when lowering the bucket and can keep it level but I have spent a ton of time and just can't find the sweet spot raising it. Arrgggg!
One thing, using the bucket hooks with chains out over the cutting edge you could lift something much higher with the NSL loader compared to the MSL (@2:46).
Great demo with the 120r. Whether you're on a 1025 or 2025 height is a premium. Not sure I would sacrifice an inch or 2 either way for a self leveling feature. Would like to see this demo with some pallet forks.
i have a 1025R NSL and discussed the MSL versus NSL on the 4052R. My dealer was pretty adament to stick with NSL's and just learn the bucket.. This demo really reinforced for me that the MSL has a lot of downsides.
I can see that MSL having more trouble dumping into a dump truck or dump trailer. Sometimes it’s a struggle to get the “pin” to clear the side, then dump and flick your bucket if necessary. Looks like the NSL has it beat with more height. No MSL for me!
Great comparison! I think through this series you have nicely illustrated the pros and cons to each loader in a way that allows everyone to make the decision for themselves based on their needs. I have the 120R MSL. For myself, the advantages of the MSL still outweigh the disadvantages. I move a lot of pallets and the MSL has really simplified that task. I don't have pallet racking so the lift height is a non issue for me. I'm also not too worried about the lack of curl, I'm always worried about busting my front axle, so I only do 1/2 to 3/4 buckets at a time anyway.
The differences are more significant than I thought they would be. I would have thought that at some point the cutting edge of the bucket on the MSL would have been level with the back of the bucket. It looks like there is not a position where you can move a load without spilling or dribbling as you said.
I think I like the non self leveling setup better. Another great video guys. So when are you going to start showing Tractor Time with Tim videos on the side of your shelter? 😀
Tim, I used to have a JD7510 with a 740 self-leveling loader. It had the same type of mechanical self-leveling arms that you see on your 120R but it also had hydraulic interlinks that compensated for some of the curling and binding issues you are seeing with the 120R. JD probably didn't see justification to add that extra feature to the small loader.
Hydraulic interlinks sounds fancy. The same could be accomplished with some simpler springs or significantly compressible rubber bump stops that could compress when beyond the toggle point (full dump in this case) to help the bucket return to the correct side of the toggle point once hydraulics are reversed.
being Australian, and MSL is all we can legally purchase, I have yet to find any operational issues with using them. Yes side-by-side there'll be some differences but you use (and get used to) what you have. I have jumped in an old NSL loader and given myself a dirt shower - but really only because I wasn't expecting it and I could have curled to avoid the issue.
I really wanted the MSL when it was first advertised. With the advertised extra load capacity and convenience of the MSL in my mind was well worth waiting for (plus the better MMM pto connection and the ability to get the load n' go with the new 54" deck with the 2020 model year). But boy oh boy, I definitely have changed my mind about going with the MSL. Long story short, today i just put a down payment on my new 1025R with the NSL loader. Thanks Tim I couldn't be happier and more confident with my decision to go with the NSL (I'll be doing lots of dirt moving work) and I REALLY APPRECIATE your videos on the differences between the 2 loaders - your the best of men!
Just a couple of things to make note of... in the last test, the MSL bucket’s cutting edge wasn’t on the ground. had you dumped to put the cutting edge on the ground, they probably would have been the same. The other thing I noticed, when would you want to dump your bucket, and then bring it down fully dumped? It looks like the MSL is curling it for you somewhat, so you have less curl to get ready for another bucket load. Those are just the things I noticed, not giving a preference to either loader.
@@TractorTimewithTim yeah, I was intently watching the side by side comparison and noticed just how clean and pretty the one bucket was, it didn't have any dirt let along scratches LOL
I have a 1965 MF35x with a trip mechanism to empty. The good and bad thing with mine is it empties in the blink of an eye but it cant be a controlled empty, its basic but works fine. I see the Danger with the none self loader is as you have pointed out you could end up getting crushed by things falling backwards out of the bucket, yes its better than mine how it curls but the operator needs to stay alert. The best option is the self leveling but there are a few kincks to be ironed out it seems with that loader, I guess its to do with pivots point spacing or should I say fulcrum points? Awesome video showing advantages , disadvantages and dangers! 👍
I think what you were experiencing is the nature of the MSL. Its purpose is to prevent your load from dumping, and it continues to do that even though you are used to tipping the bucket all the way down and dropping the boom. The extra pivot points for the MSL mechanism changes the bucket geometry during the lift arc. Your demonstration showed that it is safer to have to adjust curl while dumping rather than while lifting.
I hope someone does a similar comparison on the Kubota LX self leveling loader. I think you guys did a great job on the Deere and maybe someone will use the same format on those machines.
To me I think the MSL is best for doing a lot of fork work, I think you should do some tests loading pallets with weight onto a truck bed or trailer, the MSL will shine... esp. while unloading a heavy pallet, lowering them is a real white knuckle ordeal! It's VERY hard to keep the load level on a NSL, it ends up being very jerky as it's lowered no matter how hard you try...
Normally Deere has some pretty nice ideas (like the auto connect deck) but this one is just panning out to be a total bummer. I'm disappointed in the engineering team that worked on this self leveling loader. I expected better. Glad you do these kinds of videos Tim, to show us the pros and cons.
Tim your loader and bucket dumps better, but from my point of view Dave's tractor had about 4-5 inches of lift height. Specs may say different, but I don't think my eyes lie to me.
Hello, The cinématique R&D is simple in theorie. But for it to be cost effective JD and others have to make compromises. It's as simple as that. Cheers from Belgium.
I noticed there at the end when y'all were comparing the depth at witch the loader could dig but, Tim your bucket was higher in the front by about an inch or two, if it was truly flat I think the would have had the same dept/lift.
Tim the one or two things I see that could be a difference between the two loaders is measuring the cylinder from centre of the pin to the centre of the pin at the jd quick attach to me the self levelling loader has a slightly different geometry in the angles if those top self levelling loader arms were a bit longer it might make it better
With the bucket down flat like the end and the wheels float - one could have a board under the bucket and then lift higher getting the front out of a mud hole and plank under the tractor. The back wheels will now walk over the planks and the front over the bucket planks out onto ?safer? ground. I was in 4 wheel drive when I hit a trench that moles had gotten to or something. (I think it was an old onion bed ...) and all four dug down to the axle. With luck I had had some oak planks I used.
The binding on dump is a known issue with most MSLs, however... How often do you dump and then continue to raise your boom? Also, how often do you dump and then lower your boom while continuing to dump more? Typically, once you've dumped, you'll curl back to get ready for the next load. The advantage of MSL in dirt-work applications is cycle time. Since these machines have so little flow, you're able to raise the boom at full speed to, say, fill a trailer, then dump at full speed. Since gravity helps the boom go down, curling back can happen at a decent speed while lowering the boom, as well. The only real disadvantage I see is a slight lift height and the obvious curl-back amount. I am curious as to the reach of the MSL. Is it the same as the NSL? One advantage my dad's Kubota BX has is that it can reach further into the back of a pickup to dump dirt closer to center.
I also agree with the "how often do you actually do that" statement. I also strongly agree with cycle time being much faster with the MSL. I just turned our compost pile with my 220R MSL and turning the entire pile was much faster with the MSL than before. I agree that one can become good with the two functions at one time, but that still requires your focus and it definitely slows down the process.
Phone rings. Caller: Hey, what're you up to? Me: I'm watching dueling John Deere loaders on RU-vid. Caller: Sounds exciting. Me: I'm only half way thru, the exciting part will be at the end when they announce the winner and present the trophy & prize money. 🏆 💰 😄
The "bind" that is seen is because of the "toggle position" of the 4-bar linkage. The pin that the bucket attaches to (the bottom pin of the bucket) passes between its 2 adjacent pins or pivots. Luckily the linkage maxes out just past the toggle point in this linkage or the bucket would continue to spin and go the wrong direction when you tried to curl it. This toggle mechanism is why vice-grips work and why ketchup bottle lids stay either open or closed. Can you please download a "bubble level" app on your smart phone? This is a free way to measure angles to a tenth of a degree.
Yep if I was going to buy a 1025r.....non self leveling for me. If I was going to buy a 2 to 5 series...I would consider a self leveling. It seemed to work better on the bigger tractors in your last videos. Only reason why for me I very rarely have to dump that high only when I load trucks. Great video comparing both.
Seems pointless on larger imo. Im at the 75hp range (mahindra 6075). I simply learned to be quicker and better at the stick to stay level. Never had an issue especially when my bucket is loaded 3x its capacity (clay soil really sticks to EVERYTHING)
great comparison ,I think Deere have not got the geometry of that MSL right ,it should not be binding against itself at full height like that ,I am heading off after lunch to try my MSL Quickie loader on the farm tractor
Been out to tractor and to my surprise it is the very same as your's no noticable binding /pressure at full height but more tip angle can be got as the loader is lowered
I wonder why John Deere didn't offer a lockout adapter for the self leveling bucket that allows it to work the original way. You could design something fairly easily to remove the leveling links and stop the "elbow compensators" from rotating. Then you'd have the best of both worlds. A self leveler for using forks and anything else where it is desirable, plus the ability to tilt the bucket back and carry more dirt/stone.
I like the notion of a self leveling loader. But that catch in the curl at full height seems problematic. It DOES, however, have me thinking about how hard (or inadvisable) it might be to replace the solid upper links with a set of adjustable or disconnectable links with a fixed point at the top of the boom.
Great comparison between the two loaders! I wonder if there is a bit more curling power with the MSL loader with the linkages from the cylinders to the bucket, compared with Dave's that has the cylinders connecting directly to the bucket mounting plates.
On the 125R joke - My dealer did a Santa and tractor rides thing last December. The tech giving rides said they like to call it a 10R, then it sounds like the biggest tractor instead of the smallest tractor. :-)
Hi Tim my name is Gary i live in southwest Mo. I love your videos. I have a 2014 2210 john deere with a 200 series loader and 72-in mower deck Rock rake box blade it's been a very good machine the only thing I'm questioning on reliability on this machine is it is approaching a thousand hours on an hour meter I want to say it's 957 to be exact it has run in four-wheel drive most of its life and my problem is the splines have stripped out on the shaft coming out of the rear end to the front drive line after noticing this I can't understand why it is not greasable and do you think this is premature failure not even having a thousand hours on the machine?
That was a great illustration, you could very easily see the lower lift height in the head to head shots. Now I'm curious, I'll have to go play with the 2555 and see if perhaps the lowering and having more dump is inherent of a self leveler, never really paid attention with that tractor. My 220R MSL will do the same thing when lowering, don't remember if the 2555 with the 245 MSL does that or not, I almost think it does. I wonder if your 5 series does this?
It's not binding when it dumps. When in the dumped position, it won't self level due to the geometry. Look at it this way, when the bucket cylinders are parallel to the arms, it will self level perfectly. Now look at their angle when in the full dump position.
Tim, just before the 7:00 point you state that as you go lower with the loader arms you have more bucket dump. That should be a preconceived conclusion. The ‘self leveling’ which has nothing to do with level is constantly moving the cylinders for dump/curl in and out constantly changing the bucket position to maintain the relative position of the bucket/forks/grapple. There are certainly places where the ‘SL’ is beneficial and safer. However, I also believe that it takes away some of the most important safety factor of tractor operation, the operator! Mechanical processes will never replace an informed/knowledgable operators ability to be safe, but can lull someone into a less attentive state leading to potentially serious safety issues. Just my thoughts, but the mist important safety item is the operator. Or said the other way the biggest safety concern is the operator.
I don't really agree with your safety concerns here. When I am putting round bales in the shed for instance there is usually people there, machinery there, this is one less thing I have to focus on and I can give more attention to the equipment around me, and mostly my wife. Safety should always be paramount, but what you are focusing on should be the key. Just my opinion
@@ElkCreekAcres your choice, but be stupid while putting those round bales in the barn with other people around (we did not do hay, but people around was a huge don’t do it as a youth around the farm) and likely more than just you gets hurt. Does not matter self leveling or not! The operator has to have his head in the game or it can go bad really bad really fast!
With the limitations I don't think I'd want the MSL on the 1 series. Extra costs, extra parts to wear/break. I wonder how much extra wear that "binding" puts on the main pin? Need all the dump height you can get, even could use another few inches on my 300e. It looked like you lost some dump angle when not at full height too. It seems like they could have made the rockers in the middle of the booms longer along with the dump/curl cylinders but that would limit visibility more and need to be beefier to prevent twisting and limit forces on the boom? Would be interesting to see if a 3rd party one is available to compare
Tim, youe bucket looks new to me. My tractor has only 45hrs on the clock. The bucket has been used so much in the last 20hrs, it looks like its gone through a rock shower. Sand, clay, and bullrock is not nice on a bucket especially when putting in a septic system. Doesn't help using it as a dozer blade too leveling the ground. Scrap flat in the lowest gearing in 4x4 with the RPM in 540 pto range. When you have 75hp, it just cuts and digs...
Looking at a lx3310. The big selling point is the 3 range trans. Do you find the two range in the 2038r gets the job done for all jobs? Or do you think the 3 range is important? Thanks
Tim should these buckets be able to dump and raise at the same time. I find on mine that when scooping then raising to dump I have to stop raising and solely dump then raise more than dump as opposed to it being one fluid motion
You can do both at one with a fluid motion. Just need more stick time. Instead of pushing just right (West) then up (North), do both at the same time (NW). Easy after some practice.
hey TIm... Question for ya.... Is a self leveling bucket worth the extra $1200? I know that it would be nice sometimes but will hinder other times. I guess I'm trying to justify paying another $1200 to get it or not, I can live w/out it :) performance wise the other seems it may be a bit better not being so limited. I will be needing the forks but rarely once or twice a year. hmmmm Saftey wise the self leveling. Please your thoughts on this. Thanks
Dear TTWT, To my dismay John Deere does not make a self leveling loader ( manual leveling H165) for a 3045. Can you suggest a way to correct this problem.
Why does the self levelling loader have 40% more capacity? Right off the hop three possible reasons come to mind... 1) bigger cylinders? 2) geometry of the main lift cylinder in relation to the pivot points? and 3) the load itself is closer to the center of mass? Any input?
As it turns out...in our testing, it DIDN'T have much more capacity. Maybe 5-10%. The 220R for the large frame 2 series MSL DOES have more capacity. ...we tested 46% more! All of these tests are published on our channel.
@@TractorTimewithTim I have the non mechanical 220 loader on my 2032. I have seen up to 40% increases on that size. Do you know why it has more capacity?
Of course it's allowing you to dump it further. That's the self leveling feature. If would allow you to curl it more also as you raised. It's holding the bucket at the same position. I was looking at the edge of the bucket as degrees and I don't believe there is much difference either up or down between the two. If you're going to change the angle on the self leveling then you're using it as a traditional bucket which defeats the purpose. I prefer to control my own bucket. Self leveling seems unnecessary.
A will experience operator with the msl loader will have no trouble keeping the load level as he or she uses the equipment It a better loader on many ways the Msl is just full of gimmicks to get you to spend more for it That's just my opinion with over 3200 hours of experience operating my jd 4200 with the 420 loader
I like the new options on the 2021 version, with the single point hydraulic connector, load and go on the deck standard plus a few other items, but still not totally sold on the MSL bucket yet. I would be using the bucket more than pallet forks but also have had a couple of close calls dumping the bucket contents on myself. So may just pre order the newer version. Thanks for the comparison great help.
That is my 120R NSL...with the brand new bucket from the MSL. I will be sending the new bucket back to the dealer with the 120r NSL. Dave has an H120 loader.
Tim you need an angle measuring device similar to this www.kleintools.com/catalog/levels/digital-angle-gauge-and-level, placed on the floor of the bucket. To me, the front to front comparison seemed to show that the buckets at full curl or full dump were basically the same when on the ground. An accurate angle measurement would help.
For me, I am used to a manual loader bucket with a backhoe or loader, so I do not see an advantage...I guess you could say self-leveling bucket...bucket for dommies Ha-Ha.
I get educated every episode. That guy's just jealous you're having fun. Btw, from my view it's hard to tell a difference between the two still. Chances are, the MSL would be better for those of us learning the ins and outs of loaders like me. One test that might be helpful is one with the grapple (unless it was already done).
