"IT'S JUST ART, IT CAN'T HURT ANYONE." - Proshipping, Vent Art, & More || SPEEDPAINT + COMMENTARY 

28/07/2023 EDIT: When making this video, I didn’t do thorough enough research on Stwawbewwy Milk’s situation. After learning that they’re monetizing their “vent art” depicting children s*xually and selling it to potential pr*dators and not just venting their experience for healing purposes, I no longer condone any of their actions, nor do I believe what they’re making (in my opinion) qualifies as vent art.

my personal opinion is this: pedophilic/abusive relationships can exist in media, problematic content can exist in media. It crosses the line when it stops being portrayed as a bad thing.

My opinion: Whenever you're going to argue with a side you don't agree with. Don't send them death threats, it's not cool.

Gray areas? On the internet? INCONCEIVABLE

The idea of “pro” and “anti” is just so black and white. It’s like this with so many things, especially when it comes to controversy and cancel culture. You are not always going to agree/disagree with certain things, and that should be celebrated. Trying to over simplify complex ideas is more harmful than helpful.

pro/anti shippers are absolutely terrifying, the ways that some will go to war in order to insist/deny an accusation that they throw into the world just doesn't feel like it should be touched with a barge pole because of everything that comes with it.

finally someone talking abt MINORs liking FICTIONAL MINORS and ship content w/ minors. I have seen so many mfs harassing 15yos for """sexualising""" a 17YO FICTIONAL CHARACTER LIKE IF A KID COULD BE A FICTIONAL MINOR PREDATOR ?????????? fight with real predators. not kids edit: this stills get comments, just wanna say that there is so much more context to this and no actual kids shouldnt be doing outloud sexual comments for anyone. but in reality they still do so help them dont harass them BECAUSE THEYRE ALREADY VULNERABLE

People saying that a kid is a "predator" for liking other kids is absolutely insane. bro they're both just kids. neither of them is exploiting the other or abusing the other. bruh

The thing that even hurt is even if an artist already censored their art (putting it on tags, putting it behind password, etc etc) there Will still people who find a way to STILL LOOK AT THE ART despite all the Shield the Artist already placed in case AND THEN harass the artist for even drawing said Art to begin with.

I’m definitely more on the “anti” side of the debate, so take this with a grain of salt, but I feel like a lot of shipping of minors with adults and/or incest shipping tends to stem from a inability, for lack of a better word, to have/enjoy platonic relationships. People tend to want everything to be romantic, when it really doesn’t have to be. For example I saw and encanto post that was like “don’t ship Bruno with his nieces” and a good few of the comments were all like “but who else am I supposed to ship him with?”. Uh nobody? Because the film wasn’t about romantic relationships but familial ones? People seem to not value the type of relationship between siblings or between parent and child or an inter generational friendship as much as romantic one which is not great. Honestly society’s valuing of romantic relationships over all others is a while other topic that I could write paragraphs about, but basically chili out. Not everything has to be romantic.

I literally saw someone comparing being against lolicon to being homophobic. How is being against people s---alizing underaged characters as bad as hating/discriminating someone because a they like someone that is the same gender????? Never have I wanted to cuss someone out in my life

Fandom drama is stupid and petty and I’m ashamed I ever took part in any of it

I was in a proshipping server, (i am 16). I was just kinda there cause it was my friends server, I didn't interact with it much except to share doodles once or so each week. And then I found out a MAP joined the server and was welcomed with open arms... I left that server.

Im against a lot of abusive ships being shown as a good and romantic thing but i never considered myself as an anti. I just think that abusive/pedo/incest relationships exist to show how reality can be bad and terrifying, but it shouldn't been shown as a good thing at all.

Before I go into my actual argument, I feel like I should specify my stance on the pro vs anti argument is basically just "harasment bad, please calm the fuck down," loli/shota con is gross but there isn't really anything we can do to stop it from existing, and art containing problematic or upsetting content shouldn't be completely censorred but should only be posted in certain places and should come with a trigger warning before the piece is actually shown. I think one thing (within fan art at least) is that minors are often drawn in the same way as adults in the original media. For example, if you look at series like Jojo's Bizarre Adventure, characters who are 15 and characters who are 40 are drawn with the exact same body type and facial structure and are shown being treated like peers rather than children by adults. This isn't to say that irl minors can't sometimes look like adults or act maturely, but within the context of that series in particular, there's a sense of emotional dissonance between what really qualifies as a minor. Another popular series where this is sometimes an issue (its not super consistent within the series and there are notable exceptions) is Demon Slayer. *nsfw joke/comment starts here* Like, I've seen a lot of people say "I wouldn't fuck a 15 y/o, but I would fuck Inosuke" and I think that mostly comes from the fact that most of those people aren't looking at this absolutely ripped dude with a boar head and mentally registering that he is 15 *nsfw joke/comment ends here.* Something that one of my friends brought up that I honestly have yet to research and can't confirm whether or not this is true is that Manga/Anime is seen as something thats only meant for kids highschool age and younger, so companies are pressured to make content for that demographic, but know that adults are their primary consumers, so they compromise by making characters that look like adults but are labled as children to appeal to both audiences. Again, I don't know if this is true, but I'm bringig it up because I think its an interesting idea. Another problem I've seen withing the shipping argument in particular is that the term "problematic" is so subjective and that there is no world-wide law for what is defined as a minor. Like, would it be problematic to ship a 15 y/o and 18 y/o in a non-sexual way? In some countries, they would both be considered minors. In others, neither would be. For some people, that kind of age gap just isn't a big deal, for others its straight up pedophilia. There's no one moral or legal standard to look at The only solution I personally can really think of is change social media websites to be a bit more organized about the content you can see. Tumblr has many flaws, but one thing I think they do well is let you block specific tags and more social media sites should have that kind of feature.

In my personal opinion I think that intention/the persons actions are more important than what their art portrays. Because a person can distinguish between fiction and reality, but I can also understand why certain art makes people uncomfortable. I think that having a tagging system and watching your space is important. Having 18+ tags and always checking who you're interacting with online. Also making sure you aren't exposing your art to people who don't want to see it or minors (if its 18+ content especially). I've seen plenty of proshippers who talk about and actively disavow the topics they cover in great ways. People going out of their way to find and harass these people is super uncalled for and wrong, especially if they state that they don't support these things in real life. The 'don't like, don't watch' phrase applies heavily in this situation. If a person is in their own corner of the internet and is making sure only people who want to see these things (and also don't support the things they're drawing irl) are around then I don't see a problem with that. The only time I don't like it is if a person is actively spreading a narrative that these things are okay or hurting people.

10:26 Many historical artists have done some pretty messed up pieces, and it's not a new thing. I genuinely think that if you have a personal issue with vent art you should just not look at it. You can choose if you're going to look at it or not

God, as someone who would fall under the "anti" term seeing the harassment against "pro-shippers" is genuinely disgusting, these people say glorifying toxic things is bad yet they do it themselves? People are allowed to hold opinions. Sure, they may be generally bad opinions in your perspective but it doesn't mean you have the right to harass them.

The discussion around vent art is really frustrating and sad to me. A little while back, I remember that Holly Brown’s instagram got taken down because one of her characters had visible HEALED self harm scars. As someone with healed scars myself, when stuff like that is censored it makes me feel like I have to hide my body for the rest of my life to avoid triggering people, even though I’m years past it. To me, healed scars are important to see because it shows that someone went through a hard time and managed to come out the other side. Personally, I draw the line at actually showing the act in progress. The lead up, aftermath, or even the censored act is fine, but a grotesque shot of actually cutting seems like it’s a bit much for social media. However, I do understand that actually seeing it is important for some people to grasp the severity of the situation, so I can see why artists might still post it and tag it as NSFW. I also think people are too quick to conflate “glorifying” an action with the artist just drawing an attractive character, regardless of the actual context. I think that if Dollieguts’ characters were more visually unappealing people wouldn’t have cared, but because their art style is very aesthetic it was automatically interpreted as glorification. To quote an ancient meme: “hot girls we have problems too, we’re just like you, except we’re hot”

Anti/Pro-shipper: broke Ship-critical: woke

The biggest issue with shipping (as someone who been a part of multiple shippings across several fandoms) is that some people take shipping too seriously. To the point where they will fight others if they disagree. While yes some ships are disgusting (any with children, as you've said in the video), ones with grown adults are just for fun (in my opinion). Some see it as "yes, this is a true pairing and if you ship anything else it's wrong you're wrong". Like chill it's for fun and you're being a d*ck.

I’m so glad these controversies weren’t on the forefront when I was a child. I used to have some very problematic ships when I was a kid (adult & minor) because *i* was a minor and didn’t see myself as one. It’s only now as an adult I’m uncomfortable with what I did back then and am aware of the worrisome and problematic nature. I would have gotten LAMBASTED if I was a child nowadays.

I think that cancel culture is holding us back from having open conversations about these topics. Some don't speak their mind or just hold for fear they'd get canceled if someone interprets their opinion the wrong way, and on the other hand there's those who go cancel and harass anyone who does something wrong. It's so black and white and it reflects in every discussion we have, because siding on any topic is essentially exposing oneself to cancel culture in some way.

Personally, there's a lot of art that upsets me (animals in pain, csa), but in turn, I also make art that some others find upsetting (gore, horror, violence), at one point my own parents would shun me for drawing art that wasn't pleasant and I tried to stop drawing altogether because I was afraid of upsetting them... but as I grew up and my mental health took a turn for the worse, I ended up finding catharsis in comics and art that depicted violence and horror, and they inspired me to draw again. Though I finally found therapy and my mental health has improved, I still find the act of drawing and appreciating horror art as something so uniquely cathartic. I cannot in good faith say that everything I draw is out of processing trauma, sometimes it's just a personal artistic preference that makes me want to explore themes that are normally hard to navigate in the mainstream media. I can sometimes find the sterilized narrative of trauma and pain stifling and unsatisfying, but that's just me. I know not everyone should be exposed to that sort of content, I know I shouldn't have been exposed to some things when I was just a child on the early stages of 2000's internet, when there were no trigger warnings or anything as such. But here's the thing: whether I like it or not, there's people who will end up with wildly different perspectives and coping mechanisms, and sometimes that entails drawing very upsetting situations involving fictional minors, because that's the safest way they can remove power from their trauma and take control of it. I have spoken to many artists who are survivors and have been accused of heinous things just because they post nsfw art depicting stuff like that. While I cannot speak for all of them and I'm sure there might be plenty of them out there who are potential predators, I cannot know that through their art alone. You could have someone making the most innocuous and sfw art but they could also be a completely rotten person. You cannot judge someone's character or guess what they truly do in their private lives through how palatable you might find their art (although, we can agree that art that hinges on promoting harm to Real People can be very self-explanatory on what the artist stands for). I feel that a lot of antis, more than just truly believing in their stance, want to convince themselves that they're 'winning' a battle, and they're deliberately putting their self-worth on wether they're a 'good victim' or not (I believe there's some true in the idea that many antis might be victims of some sort of abuse or trauma), and they need to prove their worth by shaming those who are 'bad victims', which is only encouraged by the current way social media clout works, so they're continously encouraging each other on making noise instead of attemping to have discussion or even think about it. It sometimes feels like a cult-like behavior, and I've already seen evidence of real predators hiding among the 'anti' crowd, because once you start to parrot the exact same vitriol everyone else does, they will trust you. I don't want to say that the proship crowd is entirely without fault either. I feel most of the time, those who take the label are often victims of harrassment campaigns for their art or writing. I believe that while the general stance is anti-harrassment, they can sometimes fail to practice what they preach, and will sometimes disrespect people's boundaries if you don't agree on them 100% on what fictional content is allowed or not. That's my main point of contention though, because to be fair, I agree with most of what proship people stand for, because I've been also a target of disdain over the most harmless of ships... so yeah, I won't take a label for this conflict, but on most part, I agree with the proship side of the discussion. After all, this whole discourse occurred in the first place because of petty fandom ship wars that advanced from 'my ship is more canon than yours' to 'my ship is more moral/pure than yours'. Annnnd i don't know what else to add. I didn't think I'd write a whole essay about this issue in a youtube comment, but I suppose that's how it is.

Stwabewwymilk is a bad example. Without the context of her other works, "Puppy Milk" seems like piece of vent art but in the context of her other fetish work, her vent art also has a pornographic bent. It's pretty glaring that this vent art isn't as theraputic as it seems.

As a fanfiction writer, or a writer in general... I despise both sides. I've personally read the difference between someone shipping pedophilia and thinking it is okay and reading something that depicts it, and it's... well, they acknowledge that it is not okay and even put warnings. Because as someone who has suffered from CSA (from literally 4 different men... get over it, it happened and now it is over. Please no comments on how I survived, it's not the point, thank you.) I find that the way someone talks about it, and how they depict it are two different things. As a child, and writing from the child's POV, it's going to seem like all sparkles and rainbows. Here is my experience: As a smaller child, my mother married my "step dad" and he sexually abused me from 3 years old all the way up until I was 13. (the day he got arrested, but another man sexually assaulted and harrassed me until I was 16). He used to tell me, and manipulated me into thinking that he "loved me" and that everything is okay. When I see writing depicting the child believing what the predator says, it makes me feel slightly better about my own experience; however, when someone depicts that and then goes down to say that "omg shotacon and Lolicon is hot" and you see nothing but pedophilia shit on their page, it gives the impression that they find it a cool kink and invalidates your trauma. I think it's best to analyse the work logically to make sure that what is and is not being fantasized about is actually harmful. Ways that things are worded are a key factor in noticing when someone is being genuine about finding it hot or sexy... (speaking from someone who knows from experience. I've been manipulated my whole life). Now I will say that I HAVE written (and drawn) works where a character was aged down and they were in a relationship with an older man/woman. I do this because it reflects my experience, and by making it worse, it also helps me think that my experience can't be the worst. It helps me to feel like someone else is suffering more than I am, and while it seems selfish (because it kind of is) it's a way to help me, and I am sure others feel the same way. I do not post them because I'm afraid of getting harrassed, but I understand the need to have your voice heard. You feel like you're not allowed to speak out, and that's you're being just as oppressed as when you were being abused. I will say this; when it's deliberately there for pleasure and showing that children are being molested and it is "hot" or "sexy" then that is a big problem (but still completely on its own from real life where kids are PHYSICALLY AND MENTALLY suffering). When someone silences my voice, and calls me a predator for relaying my own experiences, I feel like my experience has been invalidated. Every time I write, or draw, I'm reaching out for someone to notice and hear me without me actually having to say it. I do suffer from social anxiety and it is very hard to talk to people verbally so I communicate better by writing, and while it may seem like I'm probably flexing my "disorders" I hope it doesn't come across as such because I know someone will most likely take this the wrong way. Honestly and truthfully, pros and antis are so caught up in defending right and wrong and good and evil that it twists the truth. People that do this to cope are harmed, and children that are actually suffering are also harmed because they're making more of a fuss about online depictions of children sexually than the real thing. They get SO out of hand, that they end up harming kids and threatening and pressuring them. I am 17 years old of the time of this comment, and I turn 18 in April. I'm not even attracted to kids my own age or younger, they are quite honestly the most repulsive beings on the fucking planet (just like most childish adults, too). Just because I write or draw depictions of a minor being sexually abused does not mean that I think it's hot or sexy, in fact, it's just the opposite. In writing and drawing it, I hope that someone understands and I can re-connect with someone who does since I can't in the real world. It's not like I'm going to talk to someone and have a 1 on 1 with someone who doesn't because they will never understand, not to the same extent as someone who did experience it. (People make mistakes, and this might seem like a terrifying essay, but I felt the need to post this. I don't want comments on my trauma and how "I made it and survived" because that annoys the fuck out of me. What I do want is for someone to analyse what I said and either point out what I said that was wrong, or why they agree with some parts and not the other. I hope this bottom text also doesn't come off as rude. I also don't speak for every victim, I speak for myself and other who MIGHT feel the same way, as I cannot personally speak for anyone who feels different. I hope y'all have a nice day!)

Would you let someone who consumes lolicon babysit your child/younger sibling? Because I sure wouldn't. Like it or not, some people are going to make judgements on others from what media they consume. I'm not gonna pull over and do a full psychological evaluation on some person to decide. I'm not comfortable with any of that garbage and I'm not gonna pretend to be buddies with people who are. If they have the creative freedom to make stuff then others have the freedom to criticize. Although I'd never label myself as an Anti, cause that's corny and stupid.

Imho, artists should add disclaimers and warnings on every pro-ship post, that it’s rooted in fiction and not representative of any real life situations. If anyone tries to replicate this irl, they are a predator and should be reported to the police.” That’s what I’ll do anyways.

Hello! I loved your respectful take on both sides of the anti/pro shippers. Personally I've felt annoyed by both sides and how unbelievably out of hand this topic takes either side. I apologise for the long block of text I'm about to write. Warning for what Im going to discuss, it contains topics on sexual interests: I am currently working on a psychology and art degree to be an art therapist and have taken numerous behavior classes to obtain degrees in these fields. I am still studying and do not have a degree in either field yet but by the end of the year I will \o/. One area I feel should be studied more in psychology is the art field because of how easily people like to discuss tthe psychological benefits of. One of my first classes that integrated the two was in fact a sexology class that discussed theory of sex from a psychological POV. One topic brought up in it was human attraction to certain art. Please take any further information I say with a grain of salt because this is an old field that still has not been thourghly researched and should be updated. However, it is hard to do so because of how objective it is. In this class we learned about sexually deviant interests. Now these sexually deviant actions interests are never supposed to be taken as a cause. They are more like symptoms, though I am not calling them symptoms. For example, if you have a fever this doesnt mean you have the flue, its a symptom. But if you have a fever and other syptoms of the flue you most likely have the flue. Now placing this similar mindset with art and interests, liking a "problamatic shipping/character/ action" in fiction does not mean you like or approve of an action. ie. the topic of liking villains. It means you like them, no further deeper meaning, you could add one if you want to, but in that case that is an individual's personal choice. You have the choice of agree with the person and interacting with them or you have the choice of disagreeing and walking away. No one else has the knowledge or credentials to say anything further. Those who do have the credentials would also know you cannot walk around diagnosing anyone. Which takes me to my next topic, the number of people who try to play pschologist to justify their opinion and moral standing. Its offensive and potentially harmful. People in this field go through so much study and experience to even work in the field and even with a bachelors in psychology you have no right diagnosing others. End of story. It is okay to say, "I feel uncomfortable with such and such" and avoid this thing. And personally I do feel it is an adult's job to make sure that if there are minors in the same field it also their job to make sure the area is safe for minors. However I also believe adults have the right to express free opinion and art in their own NSFW spaces. This topic relates nothing towards psychology or hides a person's intentions. I personally do not lolicon/shotocon and very much do not like shipping children because it is sus, but I also cannot label a person a pedophile. That in itself is a huge can of worms to unpack. Simply if I see those things, I click away and leave it alone. If i see it in a space with minors I report it because minors should not have to see that. I hate to be an older person that says the "I miss the old days-" bullshit but damn do I miss the old days of "Don't like, don't interact." I do not agree at all with a lot of interests and art that other artists make but in areas where they post is where I know I never will be. Even though topics like this annoy me I do enjoy when others civily discuss them because it reminds others that world is not black and white it very much all grey and various shades of grey.

Speaking of lolishotacon, I did remember watching a video where a csa victim does state that they use shotacon as a way to cope with their trauma. I'm not here to discuss whether it's good or bad, but I do think it's something that's worth bringing up in my opinion

Honestly, fandom drama in of itself is really stupid. People have this weird obsessed with correcting controversial and immoral behaviour on the internet when it's just as simple as as block and report.

I'm aro/ace and I still read smut and romance even though I don't actually feel either of those things. I do read "problematic" ships and media, but I was never influenced to marry a murderer.

this video now has a follow-up addressing some of the more prominent concerns, questions, and criticisms regarding lolicon specifically. you can find it here: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-liTyA_bXvyo.html

just to add some increased complexity to the conversation, i feel like a lot of people forget to remember that minors are also occasionally the ones creating problematic art of minors. for example, if a 16 year old has a crush on their teacher irl, they might fantasize about dating them or creating some manner of art exploring that fantasy in a safe way, or look for ships that mimic that dynamic, despite never actually wanting to participate in such irl. teacher/student is a pretty common fantasy, and problematic content isn’t ONLY made by adults. minors themselves are creating this stuff too, they aren’t twiddling their thumbs and waiting respectfully until 18 to suddenly go looking for or participating in weird ships. almost every denizen of the internet has a story of ‘yea i lied about being over 18 to get into this website when i was 15’ or ‘lol yea i remember shipping (problematic ship) as a kid’. it feels weird that everyone seems to skip over minors exploring bad dynamics in a safe manner for fun, almost taking away any agency they do have, for the sake of going ‘this is entirely an adult problem and minors are just being tossed around without a say’.

I'm an artist in my late 20's. It's genuinely interesting to see how the art community has evolved with social media, and how much policing there is over the morality of eachother's works. It's not that I feel the issues are somehow below me to engage with, because the ideas in this video are important points of consideration. Rather, it's how fervently people argue about it all that I find difficult to grasp. To be so genuinely agitated by a fictional pairing is a bit of an alien concept. One final thought that a lot of younger members of the art community don't fully realize, is that a lot of the anime characters that some of us adults idolize and draw ship art/pairings of or whatever, are ones that existed when we were minors too. Those characters have remained the same as we've moved through time and our bodies have aged, but our memories of those characters and the ways we engaged with them artistically has also remained more or less the same. Are we then supposed to just stop creating the content we used to and give up everything that helped us find ourselves in the past? I recognize that as adults, we have a certain responsibility to be mindful of the impact our work has. But the line isn't quite as black and white as you'd think. I'm not really arguing one way or the other, I just think it's a point of consideration to keep in mind when we crusade for or against certain works in the name of minors.

Most antis believe the shipping part tends to romanticise these relationships/ portray in a good light. I don't think most of us are against dark fiction. I think portraying these relationships in a bad light gives room to criticise them and talk about these topics. What proshippers tend to do is portray these relationships as good because well.. that's shipping.

The biggest example of "vent art" is what Chris Chan did. It's an NSFW act between him and a girl he knows, but can't act on it morally. The fact he posted it is what, in context, is immoral.

im happy that you made the video especially as an ex-Anti-shipper and ex-Proshipper both communities in my opinion is diffrent sides of the same coing, both communities are filled to the brim with racist, xenophobes, LGBTphobes and groomers ive seen proshippers defend drawing porn of real children and ive seen anti-shippers harras minors who were pro-shippers by claiming to own those said minors CP when in reality any sane person would not label themself as any of them i don´t want poeple to be harrased especially for likkng a character or a ship that might be toxic while also not liking nor suporting lolicon but honestly the first part of you video was nice to hear as an abuse survivor alot of my trauma can be seen trough my art to the point were i put it in subconsciously and the sometimes late night fear of people who either cant or dont want to analyse art will see my art of glorification of things. i even remembered a drama i coveret vere people were mad an artis for depicting their maledaptive daydreaming and while the original point were lakc of trigger warnings and posetive depiction of a bad person the argumetn saldy evolved to "if you don´t depict your mental illness the way we dont like" good video enjoyed it alot

I love the respectful take but it is just so annoying when people don't follow DLDR i.e. Dont Like Don't Read and children/teens are going out of their way to invade NSFW and 18+ spaces throwing out accusations on people that are minding their own business but when called out for them personally going out of their way to search up 'problematic' content they start justifying themselves and calling everyone trying to talk to them as gr0omers and p3dophiles.

It doesn't matter how bad the topic, you cannot censor art period. Art can be uncomfortable. You have the freedom to dislike an artist for what they produce, but artist need to be free to create what they want to create. If some of that is ugly, that's because humans are ugly.

I love seeing videos like this that have a more nuanced look into both sides I’m not sure what I’d be on the spectrum of pro ship or anti ship, but I personally feel it depends all on portrayal of subjects, for example if someone were to romanticize or glorify a pedophilic ship I’d consider that bad as this art is used to harm real children, via grooming and making victims of csa uncomfortable or even triggered by this, but displaying it in a way where the relationship is displayed as clearly toxic and not something to glorify id deem that ok at least with in limits. As someone who’s been groomed by adult pro-shippers and lolicons I think the idea that the artist shouldn’t be responsible for the art they are putting out there is strange but I also think that we shouldn’t harass or hurt any pro-shippers especially when some tend to be children who have been groomed into thinking that these types of relationships are ok. I feel like there just needs to be an actual discussion instead of anti or pro.

I don’t have a problem with vent art, my problem is when people use vent art to glorify certain situations that shouldn’t be even drawn.

Just wanted to add that most antis have actually gone through S*xual Abuse harassment etc that’s why most are very defensive about it, it’s reasonably real gross to see someone romantize your trauma and others.

my take is that we're kinda thinking about this wrong. instead of generalizing all of these things (apart from l*li/sh*tacon), we should be judging these things on a case by case basis because all of these situations are very different and complicated. It all depends on the characters, the artist, the artist's intentions and what the media itself depicts

The simplifications of complex questions is something the Internett has perfected. However i don't think the lines can be drawn here. I have seen multiple stories and media that have takled sensitive subjekts with care, only for the fanbase to overlook and romanticise anyway. I hav also seen friends talk happely about stories that made them feel seen, for the same heavy subjects. So i dont think censorship over artist is the solution. Though the sexual depicting of minors is something i have a strong personal dislike for. As wel as sexual assault shown as romantic or as a joke. I also think the rules should be different when we talt about shipping of real people. While fictional characters are one thing, i find people have a tendency to treat real public figures whit the same dismissal. Im not shure where the line is. And in all honesty, i think the problem is much greater then just unethical art. However what it is and where the problem comes from i don't know.

I remember that as a 15 or 16 yo I drew a character of mine in a "shame your character" meme where he was crying and clearly distraught about something...A grown ass adult took issue with it and decided to berate me and call me an abuser (mind you, I was going through very real abuse until the age of 18/19) and disgusting and how I have 'forced' them to see it...They weren't following me. I had several of my older friends (18+ friends, some of these I still talk to to this day and consider really close friends of mine with a really healthy relationship) literally step in to tell them they were tripping absolute balls. Finding the comments again about a year or 2 ago still bogled my brain as a now 23 yo So many adults will be so quick to title everything that displays any form of sadness or trauma as all bad, regardless of who is making it, and in a lot of cases they are blowing things so out of proportion that one might forget a block button exists

The whole pro/anti ship, loli and shota shit, etc is just arguing in circles. I can just the “they’re not real” or “they look and behave like a child/ they’re related” as a counter. It often just arguing with emotions, and always ends with someone accusing the other of being a pedo or being unable to separate fiction from reality. Everyone is so dead set on their own view point, thinking that they’re in the right and thinking that the other party is crazy. Having a proper discussion is borderline impossible.

Just gonna say this: It’s not illegal to draw abuse It is illegal to draw children in sexual situations If someone draws that to cope, I feel bad for what they went through, but they should be careful about drawing children in a sexual manner. Draw it in private at least, because the creation and distribution of that kind of art is illegal “Images of child pornography are not protected under First Amendment rights, and are illegal contraband under federal law. Section 2256 of Title 18, United States Code, defines child pornography as any visual depiction of sexually explicit conduct involving a minor (someone under 18 years of age). *Visual depictions include photographs, videos, digital or computer generated images indistinguishable from an actual minor, and images created, adapted, or modified, but appear to depict an identifiable, actual minor.* Undeveloped film, undeveloped videotape, and electronically stored data that can be converted into a visual image of child pornography are also deemed illegal visual depictions under federal law. Notably, the legal definition of sexually explicit conduct does not require that an image depict a child engaging in sexual activity. A picture of a naked child may constitute illegal child pornography if it is sufficiently sexually suggestive. Additionally, the age of consent for sexual activity in a given state is irrelevant; any depiction of a minor under 18 years of age engaging in sexually explicit conduct is illegal. Federal law prohibits the production, distribution, reception, and possession of an image of child pornography using or affecting any means or facility of interstate or foreign commerce (See 18 U.S.C. § 2251; 18 U.S.C. § 2252; 18 U.S.C. § 2252A). Specifically, Section 2251 makes it illegal to persuade, induce, entice, or coerce a minor to engage in sexually explicit conduct for purposes of producing visual depictions of that conduct. Any individual who attempts or conspires to commit a child pornography offense is also subject to prosecution under federal law.” justice.gov

for the bit about enjoying media simply because its media could also go for horror fans. I do not want to see people actually get hurt, but i enjoy horror because the characters are insanely stupid and depending on the movie of it has practical effects i may enjoy too, also depending on the type of person the director is

Not video related but I love how the censorship is Dolores's little "hm"

Thank you for tackling this controversial topic. I have witnessed both anti and pro-shippers' sides and I gotta admit, that they're both in the wrong ways as they would harass the other party and the cycle continues furthermore. It's so hard to find a circle of internet friends without having the labels 'pro' or 'anti' ship because they are EVERYWHERE. And if you're 'neutral', people would find ways to harass you and it makes me anxious as I do not want to participate in any sort of (fandom) drama as I have experienced this beforehand, and trust me, it's not all goofy and funsies. This shits WILL ruin you entirely especially if you're already struggling with mental health issues beforehand.

//Honestly I can't say I'm pro on anti; I've been on both sides before and (while I find Antis to be more aggressive as I had some send me death threats back when I was like.. fourteen? Fifteen?? Plus a call out post for saying you couldn't gatekeep ships and that they were pairing something just as bad in the end.) I can understand both sides. //Antis were what made Undertales scary to me; And pros made me very uncomfortable with saying I liked certain characters from shows I will not name; Both sides cause damage and will opt to ignore it to yell at the other side. It's hella creepy.

//tw grooming one thing that I find interesting is that there used to be an artist in a community i used to be in who posted a lot of proship/loli/shotacon type things a long time ago and real groomers would use their comics to numb kids to such content and, with that, make those kids think it's ok to do those sorts of things. It's not JUST about getting those bad people excited about those things (though that in itself if horrid), it's about the fact that those things can be weaponized against actual children and make them think that what those creepy people are doing is ok. Thats what people who make art ACTUALLY glorifying those situations don't understand. I feel that I must add that I wholeheartedly disagree proshippers but i dont claim the anti label because i disagree with harassment and other things antis say or do. However, I find a lot of proshippers having the same point of view as lolicon/shotacons, who genuinely say and draw vile things, glorifying them. I find myself with a similar opinion on proship vs anti as the video, that both sides are too extreme with one harassing the other, and the other covering their ears and calling anyone who disagrees a child or stupid. Though i will admit i have a lower opinion of people under the proship label because of the horrendous things i've seen come from that type of art, and how it affects actual children.

I call myself an “anti” because I’m heavily against people shipping adults and children, siblings and siblings, and just family members w/family members As someone who’s gone thru bad experiences with older family members (I will not disclose, don’t ask) and seeing people positively “ship” adults and children or family members with other family members, i feel…gross Hence why I always try to avoid it but it gets hard to when that’s what almost everyone in a tag write or draw stuff like that Edit: If you’re confused: I simply hate and feel disgusted by people who ship all the things I’ve stated above in a positive way/say nothing is wrong with it, regardless of the characters being real or fictional My thought pattern has always been “why say you can ship anything when a lot of stuff, if normalized, can genuinely harm real people?” Edit 2: oh my how the turns table. My views have changed, this time to “don’t like? Just pass it by, curate your *own* experiences so you see what you *want* to see”. Fiction is just that-fiction. People are allowed to explore ideas or vent using fiction without actually harming anyone. Censorship screws *everyone* over.

lmfao at the twitter user who said "a 6 month old baby being attracted to children is a predator" i spit out my damn water

I usually just ignore proship stuff but lately it’s been hard because I want to look up Encanto fan art and then come across very gross stuff

It's kind of sad how fandom will go so hard against art (pixels on the screen) and not have a word to say about the porn industry, "fictional media" that harms real women, promotes sex trafficking, and glorifies every problematic subject known to man. I guess going after an artist drawing something distasteful is much easier than stopping an industry that exploits real humans

I consider myself more on the pro side due to my views on censorship and because there are so many toxic “antis” I’ve seen. I go to AO3 a lot, and it has some seriously weird works. However, the tagging system implemented allows you to easily avoid anything with elements of noncon, inc3st, etc. Some people will literally go through problematic tags within their fandom just to harass authors, and that’s not okay. They weren’t forcing you to see that and warned you ahead of time about what would be in there. Seeking out something problematic and complaining when you find it makes you the toxic one.

As someone who loves digging through "problematic"/moral dubious fandom contents, thanks for the video, it's nicely made and thought provoking. It came out quite a while ago, but I still want to share my thoughts on this topic so here goes nothing. In my opinion, internet/fandom space can't and will never be "safe spaces", so while many themes portrayed in these contents are offsetting to some, I don't think there's much to be done about it. No one has the responsibility to modulate their art in order to create a "safer" internet environment, they're just experimenting with controversial themes using fictional characters/settings. Art can affect reality, but only to an extend which is how much we let it affect us. A piece of art, as shitty and fucked up as it can get, is still just a piece of art. And it's better to leave it that way. Disturbing art has existed for who knows how many years, it will never make the world a better place but there's no proof that it has worsened the world either. For the "minors can see these contents, therefore they're harmful to minors" point, I want to know why kids participating in unsafe fandom spaces is a normal thing, especially when artists who create this kind of content often leave warnings and avoid any interaction with them. They're given the chance to protect themselves but choose to take a look at explicit contents anyway, then start harassing the creators for making something they don't enjoy. Hate mails that some artists I know have received are even worse than the "problematic" art they create. Strangers on the internet don't have a duty to protect your innocent, righteous moralities, it's up to you to protect yourself. To sum up, media exists as a mean for people to experiment with themes/things they'll never attempt in real life. Trying to keep everything "clean" and abusing people who have the guilty pleasure of enjoying moral dubious contents is just pointless.

There is something about vent art to its called “traumacore” where it shows basically like vent art but it shows characters from kids shows the biggest example is Sanrio and the toxic thing about that is people who post these put sanrio tags or sanrio characters names as tags and some child might of looked up any of those and possibly has seen trauma core art and possibly would be traumatized and most people reply this as “You could block traumacore” but still the art can be found with those tags

Idk, I feel like we can let people do what they want in their own personal spaces as long as it isn’t hurting outside parties. They aren’t doing anything illegal. We don’t have to support people who draw things that make us uncomfortable but we don’t have to ban them from doing art or cancel them just because their art is problematic by our standards. Everyone feels differently.

Your videos just keep going better and better!! 😭💕💕💕

Alot of times, In toxic ships. Fans are aware they are toxic, That's why in many times, Shippers who ship these toxic ships and rewrite them and make a AU where they are more healthy. (It's fiction so you could change whatever you want about it, In Fanfiction and Fanart.) For example, In the fandom that I am, I ship a toxic ship called Soukoku, They two dudes who are ex partners, (Not romantically tho, There were mafia partners.) They're both the same age. They both hate each other, but they also care for Each other and have a mutual understanding. It wouldn't let the other die. It's a very complex relationship filled with lots of Complex feelings. But there are some fruity moments in the show, That made me ship them, Example, Dazai shoving Chuuya down his crotch. Anyways, Moving on. They would be very Toxic couple wise, Cuz Dazai has trust issues, and he usually get what he wants through manipulation. So if there were together he would just manipulate him and usually toy around and Chuuya gets pissed off by that fact. Also, these two grew up in the mafia, and the boss didn't give two shits about their mental health. moving Shippers, Tend to Change some aspects about them in their fanfic. Shipping is fun (atleast for me,) when Your making Content for ship. Many people tend to Take out the manipulative aspects of it. Because Dazai has some mental issues, (he is suicidal and depressed.) So some fanfic writers, Write him where he hits his lowest and is forced to learn to trust people (chuuya) rather than manipulate. (Bandage soul is a example of the few fanfics do that.) It's okay to ship Toxic Ships, Some people don't mind exploring the Dark side of a Toxic relationship And many people would take those toxic ships, And rewrite and Twist some things about the characters. (Usually Taking out the toxic aspects about it, That's why Fanfiction and AUs Exist) Another Toxic ship that do this, Is The Killing and stalking ship, I personally don't ship them. But some ppl do and they rewrite and make Aus where the whole stockholm syndrome and abuse doesn't happen. I hate when people be like "That's Out of character" Like Hunny it's a fanfiction, an Au. Fanfic writers are not remaking a new accurate episodes or chapter they're just making "What IFs." fanfic writers aren't getting paid to write fanfics on Ao3. It just something they like at the end of the day, it's just fiction at the end of the day. And sometimes, People write it as toxic as it is, To explore the dark side. It's usually painted in Dark Light. (Like the read, are "Her Understanding" Which is a fanfiction of the ship i like, It's very Sexual and dark, It does have P*dophilia in it, But it's painted in negative light (As should be) and does have a Negative affect on the character on the story.) But, The fanfiction/ Anime that advocate P*dophilia, and trying to make it "Cute" or in a "Positive light". Is just "No" Their is this one Anime that I watched around 9 or 10 years old. It was about a kindergartener falling in love with her Teacher, And there was scene were they kissed. (And God I really wish I had bleach rn.) Now, Why was I exposed to something like that so young? My parents never supervised me on what I watching. Many parents don't wait until their child is in a responsible age to take care of a phone, tablet, or laptop. By their own, and just give it to them, with no kids mode or restrictions and supervision, Needless to say kids are going to be exposed to dark content because of that. My little sister had her first phone/tablet, when she was 5 years old, One year later she was exposed to p*rnhub, Luckily my parents found out and had her phone taken away and she got whipped with the belt. Which i found to be bit unfair, Because she is only 6 years old and she doesn't know those things. (Also she landed on those sites because a 5th grader and 3rd grader told her about the site) So it wasn't fault. Honestly, I think my mom should've downloaded a kids mode or waited till she was older to get a phone. ( I mean i'm the oldest child, and I didn't get a phone until 8th grade.) But ya know haitian parents. Kids don't know crap, It's the parents responsibility to supervise their watching, who thetexting, and what they are doing. there are phone companies that allows to see what your child is doing on the internet . and there are phones and tablets that has kids mode. Also, the Assumptions that just because you ship means you want to be in one yourself is dumb, I'm 16 and just because I ship a suicidal manipulative maniac with angry short man, does not mean i want a suicidal manipulative maniac as my bf.

I'm not really pro or anti but I will say the anti extreme of "if you make it you support it" is so weird to me, because by that logic anyone who's every created a villain or antagonist for their story endorses that characters behavior.... like what? But then you have creators often times actually saying "I had my villain do this because I think this action is bad and so that's why my bad character does bad thing." ....................................................................................... I just....... i can't. again this is not an endorsement or admonishment for either side, I'm just critiquing that one incredibly flawed piece of logic.

Problematic media can exist as long as it is depicted as problematic and wrong and not glorified in any way.

Personally, I think that art should be judged upon intention rather than an interpretation. For example my art could be interpreted as glorifying violence, which it isn't, the intention behind my art is usually leftist and carries my hate behind the government, patriarchy, homophobia,ect.And my determination to get equality. *Just because it caters to a particular audience does not mean it was ment for that audience.*

Back in highschool I would sometimes draw Por- you know what I'm talking of, I don't wanna spell it all out. I never have and never will post them online though... The only time I have shared my uh, small hobby lol. Was when a good friend of mine asked me to draw them Yuri and Victor doing it. I just slided the drawing with no signature to her at school and said, "You don't know where this came from. If anyone asks, you just found it tucked between books in the Library." We also shipped two of our ocs out of our army of ocs together. And of course drew "stuff" of them as well. And I gotta say, oddly enough nothing bonds friends closer together, then having two of their characters destroying beds like they hate sleep. Anyway my point is... It just boggles my mind that people who have drawn waaaay worse things than me or my bud, are okay posting stuff like that online... Just with me even thinking of posting fanfiction of characters passionately snogging makes me feel like I'm ripping my clothes off in public going, "Look at me! Look! I have a freckle on my lower back!" Like where do they even find the covendence? I'm both equally impressed and scared of those people.

something to note with vent art and the arguments to censor or not, are that it is based on a long standing philosophical debate on whether the society should cater to the individual or to the group and who is responsible for who's actions and how much. with the side for allowing the vent art to exist seemingly being very much on the side of saying the artist is responsible for their own actions and not others; while the ones supporting the censorship of 'problematic art' (art *they* have a problem with) are usually from the standpoint that the collective is more important than the individual and that the individual should censor their actions to be less problematic for the collective. the argument of Subjects(Group Responsibility) and Citizens(Individual Responsibility) or Authoritarians and Republicans (nation of law, not the political party) in a nutshell. art is a tool... how people use it defines more whether its good or bad... just like a hammer can be used to bash in a nail... or a skull; propaganda forces a position, story questions and challenges one... as you can see, two sides, same coin. I am personally on the side of the individuals should be responsible for their own actions only and should not be censored side, cause I have seen where the censorship train goes in history, to gulags and concentration camps.... also to copyright suits and actual removal of rights against small creators who can't fight back (PayPal). also if we censored every case of problematic behavior there would be no justice... just sweepings under the rug. so maybe we shouldn't censor, but prosecute the offender. I also believe if the 'offending material' doesn't deprive people of Life, Liberty or the Pursuit of Happiness (The American Way)... legally it should not be removed... but morally is a different question even though the law has had to deal with morality in practice, not theory, there have been people who wish to put their own livelihood alone into law and we rightfully call them, tyrants. Hope you have a great day & Safe Travels!

My honest opinion: as a fan of works that deal with sensitive and controversial themes, I don't think that the problem is fiction, but the people behind it and those who receive it. You can like toxic and criminal characters, as long as you can take a critical view of them and separate fiction from real life. There are people who are going to have their limits of what they can tolerate in the fictional universe, and that's totally fine too. What is really wrong is to dehumanize others for things that do not even affect their daily lives and drag children into this type of thing, since there is no way for them to discern these issues so well. For me, people should stop taking issues like this so hard and worry more about what happens in the real world.

Finally someone with sane takes! love to see it

"What matters is that we foster a community where opinions on these concerns can be, fairly and reasonably, disgust and hurt." Well said.

When I was a young impressionable and hormonal teen in middle/highschool, I got influenced by certain ship art I saw. my FIRST encounters with shipping was Mable x Bill Cipher and sexual Kai x Lloyd fanart a friend showed me. I got influenced by the 'bad' side of fanart and shipping. I didnt get taught consent/age of consent/sex ed by anyone and solely based my ideas off shipping art. thankfully I matured and realized that stuff was bad.

Gosh I'm so glad you are talking about this. An amazing video as always!

an open and honest discussion would be nice.

Excuse me if this is a bit random, but your aesthetic, editing and background are really so good and creative :D

i really hate how abusive ship art that is shown in a positive light is now watered down to “problematic”. i really don’t like how any weird or bad stuff is called that because it makes us all look really dumb idk

Personally I think all art can be created and exist, with that said all art can be criticized and judged by individuals. I am not of fan of all kinds of art, but I won't forbid it from existing just because I don't like it or I'm oppose to it. I will say when I don't or do like something just as much as I can say that I only like a part of an art but not the whole piece. Art is freedom and we should respect that but don't be surprised if not everyone likes it or approves it, so if you are okay with posting/showing your art then prepare for what people want to say about it.

This woman never misses. She is well researched, reasonable, and respectful.

dude, bingable commentary AND beautiful art?? sign me the hecc up 😩✨

This is my first video I’ve seen you make, but you convey everything really well and with well-done research, with an opinion that isn’t radical and more reasonable. I really like you channel so far. Plus your art is beautiful

Anti isn’t “no dark topics ever” or “no shipping ever” it’s “there can be dark topics but they must clearly be portrayed as bad and not made into something good, cute, or quirky” I feel a lot of people forget this. Also, how the hell is making NSFW of child characters “just an opinion” that’s just creepy

Used to be friends with an anti who accused and tried to call me out as a pedofile for drawing a character of mine as an adult in a sexual adult relationship with another adult character all because "the character is a child." This character I've also equally drawn in all stages of his life. Hell, I drew less of him as a kid then as an adult but because all they saw of him was child him, clearly, hes a child and nothing more

As someone who used to be pro and anti, I can agree with you that if you give yourself these labels, you're basically shooting yourself in the foot. It shows you aren't willing to talk. Even though I don't agree with pro shippers, I can't agree with how anti- shippers handle them either. If anything, I'm anti-harassment. You can't tell people what to draw. It's the internet. All you can do is unfollow/unwatch someone, report their posts, and block them. That way you won't see their content without getting into a big fight with them. Heck even some sites allow you to block tags! Antis should just use the resources that are available to them.

I love your art! 💜

At this point I just have "pro-fiction" in my bio to keep everyone away from me who is either too young to understand, doesn't have media literacy or takes this stuff way too serious. I have been on the receiving end of heinous harassment far too many times to say that I'd be "indifferent" or "don't care", because I do. To me, Pro-ship means nothing else than to view fictional content as the playground that it is and to mind your own business. It doesn't even mean to ship or like anything. Or to be into any kind of kinks. It only ever meant to let art be art and not go after art you hate. There is absolutely nothing gained or earned by being an asshole to artists you don't like because of their work and censorship helps no one. Everyone has a responsibility when it comes to sensitive topics, especially artists. When those responsibilities aren't met - like tagging, not showing it to minors - call it out. Other than that? Block and move on. It's that simple. And while fandom discourses are stupid and something I just won't touch, I will forever die on that hill of "Hey don't send death or rape threats please". (and no, "pro" does not stand for "problematic" like some actually think...)

10:32 so my take on this specifically is that if we’re deciding that all unhealthy art is immoral then we need to ban all horror art. Anything relating to murder. And I know a lot of people that would be mad over that, myself included. Which is why I’m so glad this video is more nuanced then that.

WHOA CELESTIA!!! thanks for tossing out my comment in your video!! Wicked cool 😎 I’m flattered that you thought so much about my opinion

I'm someone who does "Vent writing" but I do it through the "healing aftermath". The whole "You're now longer in that situation, you still have that pain. What do you do? What do the people around you do?" As that's something that survivors still deal with: The PTSD/Trauma. writing it, and in a way, making characters kinder to someone who has gone through something. (aka the support in their life) feels really nice. A "You're hurting and unwell but you are still loved and you can get beter and get your life back." Context is given but never glorified and/or detailed.

I'm with you on this. I spent years wading through the shipping discourse, trying to make sense of it, trying to find a side I could agree with. All it did was damage my mental health. I've seen way too many self-described proshippers defending everything including NSFW drawings/fiction of actual children, and I've seen way too many self-described antis who proudly declare that anyone who likes any remotely problematic ship should off themselves. I'm so tired.

Here's my beliefs shipping anyone is fine as long as they aren't real people. Lolicon is gross no matter what. Vent art is fine, any art glorifying a topic around a subject in vent art is not vent art and is not ok.

I totally agree with your final point of leaving the conversation open. As long as people understand there isn't one objective answer, I think a lot of informed discussion can come from it

Thank-you for talking on this topic . I appreciate it

I thought pro shipping was professional shipping. As in, a matchmaker who gets paid to help people to find love.

totally agree! love your videos as always.

Omg so this is the first video I've seen of yours. And I'm hooked! I LOVE your video style

I love this Video, really well done and incredibly tactful in how you talked about it

pro and anti are like warning labels for toxic behaviour in my experience, anti in particular. people really just… *think* too much. if it looks illegal, report it. if you’re posting sensitive content, tag accordingly. there’s never any need to be abusive.

I personally have met some sh*tty pro shippers and some nice antis I am kinda an anti, I am against a good chunk of those ships, and ones for very specific reasons, but I don't condone harassment because of characters together, especially since I have received those threats before, I hate that people actually believe in harassment as something to solve this stuff

the layout is so pretty omg venti

I found this video to be very educational. Thank you for making this. I guess you can say I am sucker for such deep topics as this. I enjoy this very much. Please have a wonderful year.