Always interesting to hear your personal thoughts on armour. The issue I have is that my Milanese harness is much heavier than my Gothic plate, so it's an unfair comparison! One day, you'll have to come over here and try the armour on a real horse!
I prefer the gothic style, because it always looks more slim and in my personal opinion a little bit more elegant, but same as you, I love both stiles. And I’m of course also a bit biast because I am from south Germany, but even if I was English, French or Polish, I think I would still prefer Gothic, just because I love the combination of the slim armour style and the fluting.
I'm Polish and yes i prefer gothic/germanic style armour when it comes to later style armours but for our most popular period for reenactors - we call it Grunwald battle period (1400-1410) its brigandine + short face bascinet (we call them monkey face, those flat ones, the ones with cones on facemask they get hit with shield and that snaps your head in a bad way).
Gothic Style for me. One more thing about fluting - it not only makes the structure stronger (by increasing the stiffness of hte metal) it also adds angles which could cause weapons to to hit at angles that also could encourage the hit to slide of or waste a lot of energy in less damaging ways.
There's a reason modern armors are not "fluted". Flutings are shot traps. They guide the blow against a 90° surface, where it can cause the max damage.
@@neutronalchemist3241 modern weaponry and modern body armour also is not comparable to medieval armour and medieval weaponry. If a crossbow bolt would it a fluting, instead of hitting at a 90° against the armour, the bolt would 1) waste energy due to getting redirected and 2) still not hit at a 90° angle. Especially since the breast plate itself is still rounded. The flutings itself aren't straight but flare out, so even there is no 90° Angle Modern body armour also usually isn't full plate, but kevlar or ceramic plates... not really flutable
@@jeroylenkins1745 in medieval times that actually is accurate. Looking really nice on the battlefield? You might have money to pay a ransom. And that might make the difference between being captured and being killed.
@@undertakernumberone1 I didnt' say "body armour". Vehicle armors too are made to avoid shot traps. If a spear point hit any part of the fluting, is diverted where it can do the most damages, becaus the same flutings avoid it to glance off.
You'll probably find the biggest difference to be mobility in the arms and shoulders between gothic and milanese. The gothic is less protective and more mobile, especially the common floating style of arms and elbows where each piece is separate and tied to your arming coat / base garment. The milanese is more protective and, in my opinion, better suited for horseback due to the larger pauldrons and arm armor being a single solid assembly. (source: I've worn a full suit of each style)
One thing to add: there are depictions of Italian knights with their shoulders taken off but their arms in place fighting on foot in Fiore's manual. Knyght Errant points this out as probably a compromise to increase mobility when not charging on horseback and feeling the need for very high levels of protection.
I personally prefer the aesthetic of the Gothic plate armour, but I still like the Italian. What is your opinion on other styles like Italian All'antica armour (both 15th and 16th century), 15th century German Kasten-brust armour (the predecessor of the Gothic stile of armour), 16ht century Maximilian armour, 16th century Italian style and others?
I like the late 14th century styles with closely fitted jupons and with the loose, wide sleeved, colourful robes (or gowns), especially with the decoratively cut dagging. I like the things they did with fabric & velvet facings on their armour through the 15th century through western Europe and some of the elaborate coats they wore over their armour. Big fan of the Central and Eastern European coats with the feathery like dagging they wore over the armour. I like the Kasten-Brust, they look silly as hell. Especially like them without the backplate, with just long faulds or mail at the front over one of those fancy German coats.
Veagirs have entered the chat. King Yaroglek is this a provocation? “Kingdom of Veagirs has declared war against kingdom of Swadia”. King Harlaus let’s have a 7 day feast!
The German stuff has that distinctive teutonic aesthetic that tickles me the right way. In terms of practicality, I doubt the difference is really that significant.
I like the smoothness of Italian, but the symmetry of the Gothic. I personally prefer English in the 1st half of the 15th century. A style I'd love to see recreated though is Iberian, despite the fishtail plackart and elbow/ knee fans looking a bit like fantasy spike armour.
English armour is absolutely the best. Reaching it's zenith with Henry VIII's tournament armour. Every joint covered by articulating plates, no weakpots, and prominent codpiece to house big balls.
@@EvidensInsania They have a few suits of his at the museum in Vienna. Suits made in Germany and Austria for him, from when he was a boy, teen, and adult. They are spectacular.
The gothic fluting strikes me as a bit of a trade off. The fluting adds stiffness (in one direction), but also, something for blows to catch on. Again, in one direction. The fluting would, probably divert/channel strikes and stabs along the line a bit. But with the unpredictability of combat, sometimes it would certainly aid a blow not glancing off. Which brings me to what I see as the only real downside of an external piece of leather. A stab/arrow hitting the (relatively small) patch of leather, has almost no chance of deflecting. It is a pretty small target, and of course, adds a leather layer, but really, the being cut isn't a significant downside. Even if you cuit the front and back, the top half would sit on your shoulders, and the lower on your hips. It might aid mobility.
I really like both styles although i am more into Renaissance armor starting at 1500. But soly judging from a historical perspective, Milanese armor is much more protective than gothic armor. Even guys back then admitted that, Dante Aligeri for example said that the italian knights on the battlefield were far more protected than their german counterparts. But saying this, you also have to keep in mind, that milanese armor is horse combat optimzed. It is much heavier and much more enclosing (escpecially the armet) than the gothic harnesses. So on an horse, milanese is the way to go, but on foot or when doing other warfare associated things (camping, marching etc.) gothic armor is not better in a certain way, but more comfortable to wear. So to sum up, milanese armor is outstanding on horse back, gothic armor is a jack of all trades.
My concern with a leather strap is absolutely not having it cut. However, in bad weather, rain and damp under field conditions all 4 of them could wear and weaken. Not a huge consideration, however an important one I think in maintaining the armour. This is a piece the would need to be replaced with some regularity as wet leather supporting any kind of weight or being twisted and rubbing against metal will wear quickly. As a veteran with decades of service I don't know that I will completely believe any review until the person posting it goes on campaign with the items being reviewed. Battle is such a small part of the wear and tear on most equipment that in many cases it isn't statistically significant.
Personally I've always been partial to the gothic armor style but if I needed the extra maneuverability I would go for the northern Italian and now that you mention that the leather strap on the front is so difficult to damage I find out like that even more than I used to because I always thought those leather straps on the exterior were always a definite weak spot thanks for letting me know differently
As someone who is rebuilding my armor I was wondering if you or anyone out there has any suggestions for period art work for ideas. The style and time period I was thinking about was the Norman conquest of southern Italy in the early 12th century. Was hoping to find the name of a few medieval effigies of Normans in Italy or Sicily to start the ball rolling. Thank you and great video. But when you finish the gothic you need to answer the real important question which does your lady like you in most.
Try to find this book in pdf format: Arms and Armour of the Crusading Era 1050-1350: Western Europe and the Crusader States by David Nicolle, it is a compendium of drawings covering most sources for what you want.
@@brandonkohler6677 i highly doubt it. at that time the plate armor was made to stop early bullets, and that required very high grade steel at the time. by the time the US steel production became good enough for armor we were well past using infantry plate armor, though we did end up using trauma plates made of steel (and the US did have some of the best).
I love the video man. One thing I wish you had touched on is to do with the fluting. I used to be a smith and knew a lot of armorers, and they held the contention that the flutes also serve to catch and direct blades away from critical areas. That's why you tend to see flutes terminate in the shoulders and hips, to direct thrusts and strikes around the body and mitigate the risk of them sliding up the armor into gaps, such as under the gorget or the armpits. On the same note, they did contend that the flutes had a tendency to catch blunt implements easier, capturing the strike and more of the energy in the process, but I'm unsure of any empirical testing that's been done on that principle
I use armor styles most often in concept art for my games rather than as something I purchase for myself (maybe I'll be able to afford that someday), but in that context I have tried to blend different historical styles to create new cultural aesthetics, and I've had mostly positive results with that so far, though some designs have required more iterations than others.
I remember reading a writer in the Age of Pike and Shot (may have been Machiavelli but I could be wrong) actually commenting on the Arquebus (their words not mine) and saying how in the right hands 'it could even break the front strap of armour' which probably implies its a difficult thing to do. Thanks for helping that remark make sense.
I've always liked Milanese armor: it has a utilitarian look, something worn by someone who might actually end up fighting in a place where people might be shooting at him. Gothic plate is very pretty, but it also looks more like a show piece than something people would actually end up using in combat. Like, if Gothic Plate got hit by a lance, I get the feeling the damage would be much more visible, even if protection isn't affected.
Why do you think so much gothic armour has survived? It's because it's users did a lot more standing around in castles looking pretty rather than actual fighting. Whereas English armour, the supreme plate armour has very few surviving examples because of all the wars it was used in.
... do something together with Lloyd! he has an awesome gothic harness! ( ... apart from the helmet. A classic sallet would have been so much better.) I like the gothic style best. Like Emperor Maximilian's gothic harness in the Hofjagd- und Rüstkammer in Vienna.
I love how that gothic looks on you.. Ok it's not just me... U also brought it up... I thought it seemed very nice... I didn't realize it fit just right
I love the gothic styling as it just looks so gorgeous! The one exception is that I love Milanese pauldrons. I'd love to get Milanese style pauldrons that have been styled gothic for a gothic set
You are not the RU-vidr I watch the most, but by far you are my favourite. Watching you is always so wholesome and just feels so fantastic (in themrs like diving into a fantasy world). You do a great job!
American here, I like both, but I slightly prefer the Gothic style to the Italian. Both are obviously gorgeous, but I love how the fluting looks, and gothic armor seems to be generally slimmer and less bulky. However, I'm an avid enjoyer of Demon's Souls and Dark Souls, so that might be giving me a bit of a bias there.
A great video again. The problem with your right shoulder plate occurs, because it's strip is to long. Compare it around 10:30 with the other shoulder.
A very informative Video Metatron. Thanks a lot for it. Although I Austrian and not italian I would prefer the italian style of armor in theory. It looks better to me. Not that the gothic style looks bad but I prefer the looks of the Milanese style. Never have worn any armor in real life though so I cannot say which one I would prefer to wear for real because i cannot tell which one would be more comfortable to wear for me. I hope this is going to change at some point in the future when I have some money left to start building my own armor. Would be really interested in doing it. Just for the looks thumps for italian. Concerning the protective value both types should do the pretty well I think.
I believe that German armor in the 16th century generally didn't have flutes on the greaves is because they were mimicking the fashion at the time & smooth hosiery would be on the calves. The majority of the armor was fluted to look like the common fashion of the time which had a lot of slits and pleats in the fabric.
Hope you enjoy your time in the States. Always love seeing you clad in armor. Just looks right. I'm with the Milanese for said reasons of a lot of folks, Utilitarian look.
I personally prefer the Gothic style for the simple benefits of full body coverage and incredible body flexibility ergonomics. Some of the more personal sets can also get very creative about making sure there are no holes in the armor and keeping full or almost full mobility, and YES it looks SUPREMELY bad ass! 👍👍
Have you ever seen Tobias "Toby" Capwell's black armor? It is amazing! I doubt I'll ever but a full harness but if I do I'll certainly be tempted to get the whatever style armor I choose in blue or black!
Fascinating as always - in my opinion the Gothic armour looks fantastic and yes, it does fit you better, but I think it looks better on you too. Gothic armour FTW lol
Hi Metatron. Thanks for the video. It looks to me like the right spaulder is hanging a little lower than the left, which is why it is getting stuck on the breastplate.
His pauldrons are sitting too low so they catch under the breastplate. I solved that on the 2nd arm harness that I made by rounding the corners at the upper of the pauldron and adding besagews like on the Royal Armouries composite field armour II.1.
I like both! And being able to see both is super cool! But, I'm actually biased. I have learned to love the aesthetic of the first 3/4s of the fourteenth century, before the advent of full "white harness."
10:01 'plate likes to go inside the armor' part lol 😆. I like the appearance of the Gothic armor because I laughed at the minor technicality. But Italian is sturdier for combat definitely.
I fancy me a bit of gothic armor. I mainly enjoy the extra detail the most. Once your nit picking strap cuting and small amounts of flexing seem exesively detailed
To be honest, i find it difficult to think of the functionality when comparing different styles of plate armor because the german ones are just so damn fashionable.
I'd personally prefer the gothic style. I think the fluting particularily on some of the later gothic pieces is beautiful and I love the german style of gothic sallet.
I just like Gothic style architecture clothing and armor it's just that's just a style that's always appealed to me. If I could make modern armor with that style then that would be the best.
The leather straps may be functionally fine, but aesthetically I don't care for them. They just look cheap. The fluting on the German armor is also just nice looking. It also seems to be a bit less bulky looking. So German Gothic for me, if I were going plate.
For me because I have both and Burgundian as well, but in my entirely personal opinion for comfort is the Milanese. If you want to be a medieval edge lord, a hybrid of gothic and Burgundian. For mobility, Gothic! Hands down.
I like armor., But when it comes to late medieval plate, my preference is for the German Gothic style. But my German ancestry doesn’t give me a bias, no not at all. 😃😃
It would not surprise me if there was those that got themselves the suit of armour that they preferred. Personally I prefer the look of the Gothic style but the Italan style are of course just as valid.
Its not just about dancing ballet, if you've ever been in a fight before, you know mobility matters. So of course added mobility would help, why wouldn't you think a soldier from that time period would benefit from that?
I personally don't know about heroic versus villainous, but to me the Italian style with it's plain smooth surfaces looks more mechanical while the fluted German one looks more like something alive.
Just imagine it would become fashionable again to wear decorated armor to some fests.. like some celebrity would suddenly appear on a red carpet in full armor.. and people would just say.. that looks nice.
I prefer the gothic style armor. Mainly due to the aesthetics because of the fluting and the brass accents on other examples from what I have seen. Only problem I have with the style is that the pauldrons are a bit small in my opinion ie it does not look like it gives the best coverage or protection for the shoulder area.
though being tyrolean/austrian (and in innsbruck we had mainly gothic and later maximilian armour made) i better like the looks of the milanese. the gothic looks more slim and fitting, but what i really like about the italian is the exaggerated elbow pieces. they make the arms look so massive and masculine.
It sounds like you have a lot of us krauts on your channel Metatron. Just came to say, I'm in the gothic club myself. I love how the fluting draws they eye and gives it an... well... edgy(?) look. I have to admit though, I never thought of it exactly in the "hero vs villain or possibly anti-hero" kind of way. Both white Milanese and gothic styles seemed heroic but while I think Milanese was more cavalry centric, gothic feels more balanced between foot and horse. Maybe that's just my layman's impression.
Both are amazing armors though I personally prefer the fluted look of the gothic armor. Now while I used to be all for symmetry I’ve recently have taken an interest in the asymmetrical shoulder designs of the Italian armor. So chest plate wise, gothic. Shoulder wise, Italian.
The fluting was a terrible idea. The ridges just provided lots of spots that would catch the point of a weapon thrust making it more likely to actually penetrate the armour unlike the smooth surfaces of English and Italian armour. So are you interested in actually fighting or just standing around in a castle looking nice?
Well tell me what weapons are going to penetrate plate armor. Penetrating plate armor with a sword or spear is near impossible. You'd want to use a blunt weapon to break it and regardless of fluting or no fluting a blunt weapon will do significant damage.
@@GeistDrachen Well plate armour was penetrated by pointed weapons. Why on earth do you think they developed all these weapons that were specifically designed to punch through armour at the cost of all cutting ability? Also the bread and butter of a knight, a lance from horseback. In all cases the penetrating is more likely if the point of the weapon hit the ridge of some fluting so all the force behind it gets transferred into the armour rather than glancing off.
@@EvidensInsania Plated armor was never penetrated by pointed weapons. All the weapons you are thinking of are meant to penetrate the weakpoints between the armor plates. The only weapons able to penetrate the actual plates would have been guns. And you know what coincidentally increased an armors resistance to gunshots? You guessed it, flutings.
