Italian Rapier vs Sports Epee | HEMA vs Sport fencing | Weapon Confrontations - part 1 

"It's not the weapon, but the skill and tactics of the warrior who holds it" - Spear has entered the room -

Honestly, I can't say i'm entirely happy with how the experiment was done. Not allowing cuts seems very unfair and limiting. Allowing cuts would get a much more accurate portrayal of the difference in styles and what would actually happen if these 2 were to fight. It's like the HEMA is fighting at half power.

Removing one sword's ability to wound/kill with cuts so another sword is not disadvantaged may be useful in training, but is not a fair representation of each tool's capabilities. Great job to these highly skilled fencers.

Not allowing cuts is a bit of a weird decision, handicapping a weapon from the getgo seems inconsistent with the premise. Nevertheless a great experiment and impressive fencing from both. Edit: Answered, comes down to thrust priority in grading hits and general convention.

I was quite impressed by Marta's speed and parries.. Speed due to the lightweight epee, but parries due to a lot of training. I understand onty thrusts were allowed, but that also took away the Rapiers advantage in the cutting department, which the epee totally misses.

I'm very impressed by Marta, who was shorter than Rafal and was using a shorter sword. That was a HUGE disadvantage she was fighting against and she did well!

the most interesting takeaway for me is: 1. in historical fencing duels both parties must have bled afterwards (at least) 2. reenactment goes only so far in points of realism since the fear of death is completely removed out of the equation

Definitely handicapped the rapier by not allowing cuts.

Really good video! Normally these comparisons are done by people without experience, but this was fascinating and had a lot of nice exchanges!

No cuts allowed, no circle moving, almost no binding from the rapier... All around the fight was very much olympic style, while I'd like to see some Verdadera Destreza vs the historical counterpart of the epee. Nonetheless, it was an interesting fight to see.

This was pretty interesting, I’ve always wondered how a match would work out. I was surprised at how many parries were possible with an epee against a rapier. The rapier had advantages in reach and using the off hand to parry, which made it difficult to thrust on the inside. Though at the same time it’s possible to work around those with proper timing + feints. Interested to see further videos.

HEMA rapier fencers always look like 80 percent of their technique is improvised rather than meticulously reconstructed from historical texts.

This looks to be a great series. Enjoyed this one a lot. Really interested to see epee/smallsword vs longsword.

it was interesting to see how she was really dominating the opening half with lightning fast strikes, but it seems like the rapier adjusted to her pace in the second half well. this was pretty cool!

This is one of the most underappreciated channels on this platform.

As a retired fencing coach, I found this fascinating! The epee being shorter weapon is at a disadvantage in reach, however the longer Rapier is slightly slower in movement. Thus, the only logical effective tactic, is to let the Rapier come pass you, as the expert epeeist was doing. However, the allowable use of the hand for blocking will always nullify this tactic. I feel that without the ability to block the epee, the epee should come out on top, if you can deflect the initial rapier thrust, or sidestep it, and allow the target to come to you, as was demonstrated by the epeeist! In a normal rapier and dagger or rapier and glove match, they would be equal, as both would have no advantage or disadvantage. Great video! well done

Despite all possible changes in the method and points for discussion in this study, I simply love that you're doing this, especially involving top class fencers. Well done guys- I'm devouring the material eagerly!! :) What a great series!

While I agree with the criticisms of the cutting rules, I really enjoyed the fights. The dynamic between Marta, extremely agile and possessing extremely well honed instincts and dexterity, and Rafal, a bit slower as a result of his different weapon and training but very calculating in his every move, was very interesting to see play out. Combining the two results, I think in a true fight it would generally come down to whether the rapier could land the critical blow quickly, because after that first move it loses the range and precision advantage to the epee's superior speed in tight quarters.

I love that this is finally a HEMA-centered video that doesn't look down on Olympic fencing. I was also quite impressed with the skill levels of the fencers. As an epeeist myself, the rapier's off-hand parries and grabs looked really weird for me (and, in pure rapier, wouldn't grabbing the blade be a bad idea because of the cutting edge?) but there were some fairly solid fleches and I like that Rafal fought on technique instead of strength for the most part. Very good video.

Genialnie zrobiony materiał!

The rapier guy really loves using Inquartata

The production quality of this video was superb. A really intriguing match up of systems. I know there has been some comments on the use of cuts, perhaps this could be added as an additional scoring category but I would not let that dishearten you at all. Fantastic! We hope to see more!

So happy to have more content to watch from you folks! I've seen series like this on RU-vid but I feel like there's more legitimacy from your series, maybe because you explain properly what's going on and both fighters get to weigh in as well. Solid video!

There's been an error in the counting of the hits, at minute 4:16, the epee fencer's olympic score went from 5 to 7. Either way, very good video.

Impressive fencing skills!!

it's cool to see how a modern epee parries against a rapier recreation. very cool. The rapier fighter in this video, I believe, struggled with judgement of distance and closing the center line in this bout. That said, this was two fighters of a certain level of skill and it was very cool to see the matchup presented like this.

Film trzyma w napięciu jak dobre kino. Bardzo uczciwa prezentacja.

It's really cool to see a pro olympic fender fight a rapier :) rapier definitely had advantage in length, but disadvantage in speed.

Interesting concept and well executed. And great production quality of course. Of course some things could be made or designed differently but all such experiments must be contained in some ways and I think you have chosen a decent one.

This was wonderful to watch. Thank You!!!

This is sort of why sports fencing is so uninteresting to me, just touch your opponent and you win. Also using only thrusts? Why? If you remove aspects of one weapon but not the other, the more specialized weapon will have a non-realistic advantage. Because the sacrifices made to gain that specialization will come at no cost. All that said tho Marta made some amazing parries, they were both great athletes. I just don't like the premise of the event.

This was like watching how a rapier would affect your performance in an olympic fencing game. Next lets see how an epee would affect your performance in a no hold barred HEMA fight.

loved this. although I would like more to see the destreza vs epee

One thing most folks likely didn't know is the Epee user has the typical pistol grip. Which actually allows her to react quicker with thrusts and parries. this was made for the sport as it lacks flexibility to switch from thrust to cut. And allows the hand to be shielded better. But hey it was made to be the best in the modern sport not combat.

The difference in weapon length was compounded by the difference in height between fighters giving rapier an even greater reach. But of course this would have happened historically as well.

Big fan of your work, always fantastic and very high quality. I am enjoying these competitive and exciting reviews, they are different to your gorgeous reenactment short films. Keep up the good work

That was awesome! I noted that within 5 min Marta has started to include left hand action in her fighting - has she done HEMA as well, or was that spontaneous adaption mid-fight? Range doesn't seem to be as big an issue as I thought. Maybe that is between high level fighters and range is much more decisive in a fight between beginners...?

What this has taught me about winning in Rapier: You need four things to win a rapier exchange; distance, timing, arm strength, and experience in theft

I've been a fan of swordsmanship since I first found out about Zorro when I was young. This duel was interesting to watch! Keep it up! New subscriber here!

Wow! I was hyped all the fight, thanks to all of you! Both the rapier and the epee were amazing!

Why does the rapier is not allowed to cut? Isn’t it make things pointless when you do that?

Awesome video, love the editing and quick flow. Can't wait for next episode.

To be fair, since grabbing the opponents blade is prohibited in Olympic fencing, I wouldn't count the hits in the Olympic counter, the same way unsafe hits aren't counted in HEMA. The fight itself was cool af. I really felt the weight of the rapier not budging on most of the epee beating. She really struggled with controlling his blade, and was in constant and immediate danger. He, on the other hand wasn't as agile and responsive as she was, and was very tanky most of the time.

In the 1980s, as a student in Wales, my fencing coach used to tell us this story of a epee duel in London in the 1950s which he attended :) In those days, they used steam epees which had a jagged point to it. The idea was that during competitions, the jagged point would catch on the fencer's uniform, leaving tear on it, thus making it easy for scoring points purposes. During this duel, which started off as somewhat of a joke, both duellist were bare chested, and only wore masks to protect the face. The idea was that the person who drew first blood was the winner. Unfortunately, after both parties started taking it seriously and cutting each other up, my coach and his friends had to man wrestle them down to stop the duel as it was only a step away from really serious injuries.

I've always wanted to see this happen, really cool you guys did it! If the rapier had been allowed to cut, this may have been a different story :p Will you ever do a comparison between polish and Olympic saber?

Супер формат! Мое восхищение!! Вы лучшие

Is a sport epee historically valid? meaning is its composition similar to a supposed "war epee" that would actually be used in combat or a duel. if not this is like a gun fight between a 1911 and an air-soft gun.

Having used l'épée ( in my country it just mean Sword ) i can say i was waiting for a video like this.

Love these mixed system showcases. Very clear rulesets and point system. Great video all around and great fencers!

As a former NCAA div 1 fencer, this was so cathartic.

doesn't restrict the rapier to only thrusts handicap the rapier? A true comparison would allow the rapier to make cuts too, and change how the epee fought. In a real fight, the rapier would not limit to specific style of strikes, correct?

I remember instinctively grabbing onto a friend's epee when he lunged. Nice to see that that's allowed in HEMA.

Good experiment, but not logical. The damage that a rapier can do to a body cannot he compared with that of a sports tool.

This is a really good format!

No, i to jest jakieś sensowne hema vs sportówa, a nie szpadzista w lekkim ubranku przeciwko długiemu mieczowi kontra hemowiec bez spodni :D Super miniatura. Może jak to PZSZ zobaczy to się wreszcie dogadamy i będziemy prawnie sportem? :D

What a delight to watch! Dziekuje bardzo!

Weapon vs weapon, but you handicap one weapon by not allowing its cuts? Counterintuitive, and completely destructive of the "safe hit to first blood" idea of the first duel. But rapiers weren't famous for their fatal cleaving capacity, so SOMEWHAT less relevant in the "fatal intention" duel.

Excellent video! I do think head cuts with the rapier should have counted as a touch though. I was also surprised that the epee was able to bind and parry the rapier better than I expected.

Превосходное соревнование! Благодарю за прекрасное зрелище! Марта - великолепна! С уважением!

"Hey, your sword is a bit heavier and slower due to its ability to cut instead of strictly thrusting. Not cuts allowed. MAY THE BEST WEAPON WIN" ? ? ?

Both are amazing! Marta at 23 years old has a bright future. The Epee is too flimsy in my opionion.

In my opinion this was and/or is a really good educational and fun video.👍

gun vs knife but shooting is not allowed

I ran a similar experiment several years ago and found that the epee parries well enough and that it's relative speed was a tremendous advantage.

Interesting to see how sports fencing's gait is quite a lot nimbler with a "bounce", similar to how boxers' bounce is executed, while HEMA has more of a planted footing. This allows the Sports fencer to get a lot of hits in during the first match due to her ability to beat the rapier off-line and do a follow up thrust immediately after. The HEMA rapier fencer had to play defensive and rely more on off-hand grappling as he was not able to keep up with the epee's speed. HOWEVER, come the second round, I noticed the HEMA practitioner learned his lesson: he no longer offered his blade straight towards his opponent so that the epee can no longer beat his rapier aside. This time, he made sure to always point it down, point it up, and even support his blade with his off hand so that his point cannot be easily manipulated by the epee, and so that he can bring his point in-line when he needs to. As far as I can see here, sports fencing beats HEMA in terms of pure speed of strikes and parris, but HEMA beats epee in terms of flexibility with their intentional off-line blade blocks and hand grabs.

Very interesting! Just watching the bouts shows off the two weapons' designs very well. The sport epee is as light and fast as possible without sacrificing the ability to parry (look how much it bounces!), while the rapier is as light as possible without sacrificing the ability to penetrate human flesh.

poor showing, for a truely realistic comparison, why not let each fighter have no handicaps, just fight to there strengths

Piękne starcia. Wreszcie można coś oglądać z wielką ciekawością. Brawo!

I am practicing mof epee for 14 years and at the same time 10 years longsword and 5 years byzantine saber. I want to say that rapier should have cuts. Also the modern fencer did not use 4ths and 8ths transitions which are extremely useful against rapier ( in my experience). Of course i would also comment that the male fencer had an almost clear advantage in distance management ( i mean experience). All in all a nice match. Congratulations to both fencers for a duel well fought.

Thanks for the English translation of the fighters' comments in the Transcript. That was the most important aspect to me. Maybe you should mention that they are there, either in the video or description.

Am terrified by the skill of the Epee wielder. At my skill level, the person with the shorter weapon usually looses unless the other person goofs around, so in my head, a defensive rapier would always win vs an epee over time. I was proven wrong here. Amazing speed and lovely skill display.

This seemed really click-bait-y but actually much more 8nteresting and enlightening than expected. Well done. (Of course ruleset is everything and real combat is hard to emulate). The epee fencer in the first round did an amazing job overcoming the reach advantage with superior point control and quickness.

Awesome! Splendid work as always! I can imagine the reasons behind "only thrusts" rule. However, could you include some commentary on how cuts rapier cuts would affect such fight? Maybe in the next video? Looking forward to longsword vs r&d :)

If the question is "which is the better weapon?" the Epee is automatically at a loss regardless of whatever score this ends up at. It's light and fast, but too flexible and has no edge. It's not a weapon, it's a piece of sports equipment and it specialized to that end.

Nobody talks about it, but actually olympic fencing transitions incredibly good into fighting with car antena.

a lot of folks talking about rapier losing the cut making a big difference, but I think a bigger loss in points suffered by rapier was that Mr. Kalus demonstrated a propensity to leave his guard to the outside of his frame and angled in which gave Ms. Sokol a lot of great points of leverage to get strong parries and also surrendered a lot of his reach. Mr Kalus seemed to respond poorly when she beat him offline and closed. not panic, just an unfamiliar movement where he seems used to voiding instead of parrying or closing the line.

She is a much better athlete and even with the range disadvantage she was doing really well. A top flight olympic fencer will run circles around a Hema practicioner. The level of athleticism, technique and stamina are just on another level. Not to mention much higher competition standards.

"It's not the weapon, but the skill and tactics of the warrior who holds it" My Alcoholic Uncle Vladislav with a longbow: *Evil laughter*

The Epee is not a weapon it is a piece of sports equipment, that would be entirely useless in a actual fight.

It looks like someone went to the rapier fencer between rounds and told him: "You know, Fabris is watching."

Couple interesting takeaways from this: 1 - Interesting to see the weights of the weapons in action, Olympic epee very light compared to Spanish cup hilt rapier. --------- I think a better comparison would've been with an original (in design) dueling Epee or even earlier, the small-sword, which is where epees descend from, not rapiers. --------- Nonetheless, if you've trained with a weapon enough, it should be effortless, as it should be an extension of your body 2 - Not allowing cuts highlights how important it is then to have it compared to a proper historical counterpart (i.e epee/small-sword) --------- Unlike the kendo/epee video that was posted recently to RU-vid that allowed all forms of contact. --------- Not allowing arm/leg contact in the second act, again highlights the need for better comparison as it will favour the longer/heavier weapon. Full body contact is fairer, and so is allowing full rapier expression. 3 - Having practiced HEMA for some time, now competing in Epee (sport), it's evident that the footwork and basic sword work is more refined/regimented in the epeeist. This is without knowing their skill levels obviously, however the basic regular bladework preceding the footwork allowed the epeeist to engage and disengage a lot quicker than the other duelist -------- The rapier was more or less poorly instinctively reacting rather than thinking various steps ahead, which is like what a lot of new fencers do as they slowly filter out their recoiling reaction in favour for planning/thinking -------- The biggest mistake rapier made CONSTANTLY (especially for ITALIAN rapier), was contracting the arm and keeping the point off target (non-threatening), allowed for too many easy points for the epeeist, who had lesser reach, again very basic lessons for beginner training. Italian Rapier is/was the most influential school for modern epee, yet the epee used it more effectively. Doing this alone would've made for a more decisive rapier victory with its formidable reach and versatility (I don't mean "cuts", there's more hardware available for use) 4 - Like I stated earlier about having done HEMA, what bothered me most about it, like various martial arts (karate and kung fu in particular, compared to boxing/jiu jitsu), is how stubborn they are with regards to their conceived notions of "form", where they sacrifice mobility to replicate historic manuals' still images. I guarantee you, in a fight/duel situation, you're not going to want to slowly step around. Sure, there was the Spanish school of rapier ("destreza") that revolved (pun intended) on circular-to-linear contact movement, but it did not state that it should be limited to walking/shuffling pace. -------- Move slow = get hit; -------- Move quick = hit not so much It was an interesting video, sad they couldn't do it fairly. I was hoping for some documentation to showcase "real"/performative comparisons.

Some of those “unsafe hits” were definitely out of tempo, but this was a very interesting video over all. I enjoyed it.

Not surprised at all by how it went, and the comparison is quite silly to begin with, to me. At 410g and being able to flick it around easily the epee blade moves ridiculously fast, but even more ridiculous is how fast you can move the cup, with it being so light, which enables very fast parry riposte motion. Under modern rules, it would be illogical to think that rapier could ever win that fight since the other person just has to strike first. That being said in a """"""""""realistic"""""""""""" fight (please notice the number of quotation marks) taking a hit from an epee blade would be trivial, the risk of a deadly wound is ridiculously small unless you get hit somehow in the eye, throat, etc... And even then it might not be deadly, but it sure won't be pretty. The human ribcage is more than capable enough of withstanding hits and pierces to a certain extent (we have historical examples of French sailormen surviving hits made with a British cutlass to the chest that peeled half the skin and meat of and broke ribs, and it's a rather high number ). Epee doesn't come close to passing that threshold, and with clothes on top, a person could just forget about it. In short, past the surface wound, epee does 0 damage. So looking at this from a point of duel to the death, a person with a rapier wouldn't really have to care, they could even offer a body part to get hit, tank through it and proceed to cut, thrust or do whatever with a rapier, because unlike the epee the rapier has the weight to inflict serious damage, and will not bend at the first sign of resistance. This also brings us to the cuts. This was a thrust-only fight, why? We are equalizing 2 weapons that are not equal and we are equalizing them unfairly in the favor of a lighter one. Had the cuts been allowed, rapier just needs to stand in a high guard and cut down, that's it. It's longer so it will reach first, epee cannot parry/block that. And this whole thing goes out the window. For people that will get angry, it would be the same with a side cut. Just swing it at the opponent's head, epee blade will not block/parry that, and even if they try to go for you, they cannot go to your head (rapier is taking the central line), meaning they have to attack either the arm or the chest, and we all know what target is reached first in the head vs chest game, now let's add 20 cm on top of that for good measure and well.... So while fun to watch and do, these kinds of videos are ultimately inaccurate and should not be taken as the end result of anything other than people having fun and trying stuff out.

I'm gonna say it: The stab and backspin at @5:40 was probably the cleanest and most-stylish hit I've seen on camera. Ya boi not only landed a clean and lethal blow, but Jedi-spinned out of the way of another killing blow. It was a perfect shot. Epee won the match, though I'm unsure why Rapier was not allowed cuts? It seems so out-of-place. *Of course* the Epee is going to get more-consistent thrusts than the rapier: It's a flailing piece of highly flexible metal that can be flicked around the guard.

The epee fencer was phenomenal. Ordinarily, swordsmen double down on either their tenacity, their speed or their defensive capabilities. She excelled at all three and combined them with rapid, unpredictable footwork. The rapier fencer clearly took an older man's approach, conserving energy and attempting to end things with fewer attacks. Now, 38 isn't really "old", and he's clearly in good shape, but anyone who has reached that age will tell you a healthy 23 year old has a world of advantage over them in terms of agility and range of motion, especially when combined with his weapon weighing over twice as much. She relied on her agility to obscure her patterns of attack. He relied on patient planning and making every movement count. In fact, the more I think about it, the parallels between this fight and Yoda vs Count Dooku are hilariously relevant in a way I thought I'd never observe in a real fight 🤣

Since when these pistol grippy sporty flimsy epees became a weapon? 😂

Widowiskowe, fajnie się to ogląda. W realnym życiu to "badziewie z żyłki" się do niczego nie nadaje. W dodatku pan EWIDENTNIE daje pani fory. Dżentelmen:)🎉😂

Next fight: Shotgun vs Epee

Cool that My country has awesome fencers

As a JKD practitioner, I found great value here

Marta's technics is so much advanced. If she had been a man with adequate physical strength, she would have won 10-0 in both fights

Excellent presentation!

so much fun to watch! Really shows how much the skill matters, how a good fighter can keep the fight where they have the advantage. But also style! Would the fight have been different with different fighting styles? I think so. If the rapier user had a more bouncy, wide-legged stance, could they have kept the range in their favour more? But a flat-footed epee wielder who used their off-hand a lot to compensate for the shorter range would also be interesting. In fact I'd like to see the same two people swap weapons!

Fantastic! I have said for years that Olympic fencing is underrated.

It's a pleasure seeing the dance between two skilled duelists.

I absolutely love this video! I've lost count of how many times I've rewatched it. Do you think you'll ever produce a video of olympic sabre vs any form of historical sabre (as in, either British, Hungarian or Polish)?

Great video! super fun to watch!

This was Very interesting! Thank you for doing this!

I am so glad that HEMA started taking advantage of range towards the end of round one. It was making me mad haha

"Your friend's dead. And Meryn Trant's not, cause Trant had armor and a big f'n sword!"