Jack Kirby's Career Spanning, Controversial Interview from The Comics Journal 134, February 1990 

Mark Evanier told a story about going out shopping with Kirby and Roz in the mid 1970s. Roz went into a clothing store she wanted to look in, and Mark noticed there was a Toys R Us, and he asked if Kirby wanted to go look around in the store while Roz was clothes shopping just to kill some time. He then noticed a tension and change in Jack's demeanor. Finally, Kirby just said to him: "I can't go in there." Evanier just let it drop. Later, Kirby was quiet in the car on the way back to the house, but Evanier asked Roz about it later ("What happened?"), and she told that Evanier that Kirby was afraid he'd go in there and see all the Marvel toys and get angry. It had made him so upset previously that he'd sometimes not be able to work for a day or two (which was tantamount to a disaster in their eyes I'd say). So Roz had leaned to steer him clear of those kinds of places. That story says so much.

Never realized it before, but Jack Kirby and my grandfather, PFC Louis Amatangelo, landed on Omaha Beach the same day.

This is now my favourite episode of this channel. Love Kirby so much, love him to tears i tell you.

I'm forever grateful for the opportunity to meet Jack Kirby in his final Comic con appearance. I could barely talk because I was so dumbstruck to see him. At least I have a photo with him that still gives me a thrill whenever I think about it.

Part of the reason Mike Royer became Jack`s primary inker at DC was because the people around Jack HATED Vince Colletta! Maybe hate is too strong of a description, but Vince`s sin of erasing Jack`s work to make Vince`s work easier, was the main reason to bring in Mike Royer, who was faithful to everything Jack penciled.

Great video! That WAP bit at the beginning is unintentionally hilarious now.

I'd still say the Moebius interview from Comics Journal #118 would be cool for you guys to cover at some point, but I think it's fair to say the Journal gives us a real embarrassment of riches so I'm good with whatever!

1:04:00 for those that don't know, carmine Infantino also was the cocreator of Barry Allen, the second flash which jumpstarted the silver age of comics. He even designed the costume as a one piece which was then unlike anything you had seen before in a superhero comic. I do not know about his relevance until much later and when Barry Allen was basically dead and the flash was not a best seller. I missed my chance of getting a sketch from him at the end of the convention because I did not know who the hell he was. I regret that immensely because I was a few feet away from the creator of a character that is now one of my favorites.

Jack Kirby’s versions of the Avengers especially Captain America are what I see in my minds eye whenever I hear their names.

"send us those WAPs" hahaha

Just watched the video, did not disappoint. Great stuff, Jim and Ed. Just to throw some thoughts into the discussion: - Joe Simon’s autobios talk (and show documents) about Spider-man that bring Kirby’s “I created Spider-man” comment into context in my mind. If we can establish the idea that cartoonists pull needs ideas from early concepts and evolve them in some way, you can see Simon and Kirby doing that quite a lot throughout their careers as packagers and creators for various companies (like the several iterations of “Thor” they did in comics before Kirby at Marvel in the 60s, Fantastic Four having DNA of Challengers of the Unknown, even John Severin saying that Kirby had pitched an idea in the 50s to him for what would be “Sgt Fury” as “Boy Commandos grown up”, the early concepts for Spider-man coming from ideas out of “The Fly” and unused “Silver Spider” (and unused “Spiderman” logo) being brought to Lee by Kirby seems plausible. Ditko in later essays spoke about seeing Kirby’s early concept and pages for spiderman, but taking a completely different direction, so it’s kind of not a crazy a statement as we may think. - Also, I don’t recall the preamble at the beginning of the episode, though I think destroyer duck was mentioned? As you guys know, Kirby had been fighting marvel for years at that point for return of some of his art back, with Marvel wanting him to sign a several page document that wanted to make him not be able to say he had a claim over creator/co-creator credits of his 60s stuff. With that in mind I can see why he would hammer down hard on what he contributed to each property. - Re: Mike Royer, he does a great 20 minute retrospective re: his career on The Comic book historian podcast (on Apple podcasts). A great story of how Royer “auditioned” essentially, by way of Kirby making him ink a Marvelmania poster on his desk while he watched. I don’t believe he was poached by Manning, he was recommended to Kirby. - Re: the 70s Kirby book cancellations, you guys are right: the numbers by today’s standard would be number 1 on the charts, but back then, they were considered “poor selling”in comparison, with a drop in numbers per issue. It also coincided with a paper shortage which affected the dc title line and many books were “aggressively” cut (about a dozen, dropping their books to about 23 total), a glut of marvel books (in 74, they had about double the books on the rack compared to DC), and although that adjusted by 75, as you gents mentioned, Kirby was always the marvel guy at dc, not everyone in editorial liked his writing or drawing style, or still held a grudge after the problems surrounding the Sky masters strip in the late 50s (with editor at DC Jack Schiff), so he was back at Marvel again by ‘75 when his contract came to an end. - As an aside, Infantino was fired in ‘76 due to all of this business stuff affecting DC corporate bottom dollar (according to Infantino’s autobio). Which makes me think Kirby’s ideas weren’t only ahead of their time (as you say, looked back on now positively but at the time, given most were cancelled inside a year, and Mister Miracle, the most “superhero-looking” continuing a little longer, the fans probably wanted something closer to what Kirby did at Marvel), but also victim to industry market share tactics (the page count and cover price fluctuations between the two companies at the time are hard to keep track of, but all to get that kid’s dime and attention), and business fluctuation. All this business stuff interweaving with the creative stuff is summarised really well in the American comic book chronicles series of books. - Re: other Kirby interviews (and other creators about their work and in relation to Kirby) definitely check out Twomorrrows publications “The Collected Jack Kirby collectors”. They are available as digital issues via their website too. Thanks again gents, the one thing I always love to hear about is the cartoonists work ethic. Kirby’s was inspiring, and as one that too have to worry about roof and food for family and I, so I always appreciate when you discuss the topic, and it’s something I try and highlight with young creatives in my classes at uni. I share and plug your channel to my students too, cheers again and sorry for the long ramble. Looking forward to Tom Scioli weighing in soon with his thoughts too.

While reading the Fourth World I was struck similarly to Ed’s comment: Kirby reads like a story your Grandfather would tell: anachronistic but still familiar.

I've always thought of this interview as Kirby's "Lennon Remembers," from Rolling Stone magazine in 1971. At that point, John Lennon was so embittered about the Beatles and what he had to go through to get out of it that he threw shade at everyone involved, from McCartney to George Martin and everyone in-between. In this interview, near the end of Kirby's life, he was so worn out by the unfairness of the industry--and especially by Stan Lee and Marvel--that his invective towards them knew no bounds, to the point where it's sometimes hard to take him seriously. But, like Lennon's interview, completely fascinating.

This may be your best vid so far, and I love SO MANY of your vids.

just found your channel, great content, I'm really enjoying all the background history you guys provide. Keep it coming

Another great episode you guys - I never would have found this interview without all your TCJ reviews.

I have this amazing coffee table book called “ The Art of the Simon and Kirby Studio” which has more than 350 pages of original art from Joe and Jack. I agree with what you were both saying about really appreciating Kirby’s pencils when working with Simon. Strongly recommend the book.

Barry Windsor Smith from Journal 190, Alan Moore from 138, There's a book of Frank Miller interviews that's worthy of a look, along with Eisner/Miller. Anything with Clowes (233 and 154). All insightful and worth a deep dive.

I loved the way Kirby drew Superman, Batman, etc. So much character. It was a mistake for DC to do that.

Thanks for doing this video, guys. Loved it!

Suggestion? Any Dave Sim interview issue. Or even a comparison of the various ones starting with the joint ones with Deni. That's quite a soap.

When I saw how long this was I wasn't sure I wanted to watch. Over an hour later, I'm engrossed, the time has flown and I wish there was more! Thanks guys.

Thank you for posting the link to the Kirby At War video.

The Stephen Bissette interview is essential. It appeared in TCJ #185. He digs in deep about The Comic Code Authority, Alan Moore, the rise and fall of Tundra Publishing empire and the mid 90s crash. Good stuff!

I really love this show and other shows like it but you guys have got some zingers. I had heard that Simon & Kirby were immensely popular in the 40s, almost as big as some newspaper artists. They could improve sales with those signatures. They were asked to backlog stories to print while the two were overseas for WW2. When that backlog ran out, a slew of artists drew in their style and the work was signed Simon & Kirby. One of those ghost artists was Gil Kane. I found this on the Kirby Museum years ago and haven't found it since. I would like to dig deeper into this if anyone has any reference.

Ed, you nailed it with the Steve Jobs/Stan Lee comparison. What a great way to think of the Kirby/Lee breakdown.

Awesome, I’ve been waiting for you guys to talk about the King. This is great, I will try to hunt this magazine down.

This is your best video

At SPX this year I was talking to a guy in the Jaime Hernandez signing line. He had a page of Kirby art from Jimmy Olsen. It was amazing to see that in person but a shame that the faces were redrawn.

Wasn't there a Kirby interview in the second issue of Comic Scene magazine circa 1982? Seem to remember it being published by Starlog...

Also wanted to mention, since you ask about other good Comics Journal interviews, a couple things: there was a great Gil Kane interview somewhere in the early 90s. I'd love to see a deep dive on him, especially his 80s work ranging from the end of the original Micronauts run to his Sword of the Atom for DC and his wonderful adaptation of Wagner's Ring cycle. The other thing I wanted to point out is that many of TCJ's most sought after interviews were repackaged in a series of large square books called The Comics Journal Library. Jack's is the first volume; it includes the Groth interview plus two older ones. I'm not sure who is featured in the following volumes - the only other one I have is for Kurtzman, which was vol. 7.

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I actually have some this audio interview on a CD.

Love your channel guys

"They're the kinda guys who shoot pool." Oh....you got trouble....trouble in River City....

Wonder if that 1987 radio talk with kirby is still on RU-vid. Stan rings in and it gets uncomfortable.

It's Kirby's Fourth World that binds the DC universe together now -- kinda like the Force (or Source).

Mother lifting car thing - soooo is Jack the reason why that got featured in the live action Hulk show?

Kid dancing on desks, playing an ocarina, LOL! Hilarious visual.

According to Mark Evanier, the main reason Jack asked for Jimmy Olsen was actually because it didn't have an incumbent writer (Mort Weisinger had just retired so his stable of writers were no longer directly attached to it), as a child of the Depression he had a strong cultural belief that you never take another man's job. Some of the evidence I've seen suggests its sales weren't actually bottom of the pack as Jack says in that famous anecdote - but I mean it was Superman's Pal Jimmy Olsen, it wasn't going gangbusters. The broad strokes of the story that it was a minor title which Jack massively reinvented are certainly true (I've read some pre and post Kirby JO vs. Kirby's and boy is the contrast stark). As for the cancellation of Fourth World - it's one of those things I don't think there's a definitive answer on (unless it's in an interview somewhere) but the outline I've gathered from what I've read is that DC had him mock up some new concepts which ended up being the Demon and Kamandi, they ended up really excited about them and wanted him to write and draw them - which wouldn't leave enough time for Fourth World and thus they went on "hiatus" (and that's how they remained until Jack left DC) apart from Mister Miracle which plodded on stripped of its "Fourth World" elements (they might as well have cancelled it really). Personally I think two things are at play here, one is that DC straight up didn't get Fourth World, it was weird and abstract and not something simple they could understand like "Planet of the Apes is hot right now, so put out Kamandi". The other is office politics - DC wanted to hire Jack Kirby mostly to steal Marvel's number one guy and put him on the mantelpiece. DC had been losing sales to Marvel for a decade and some time in the early 70s Marvel actually became the top selling comics company for the first time ever. This was a psychic blow and repudiation of their whole approach (which mostly consisted of turning up their nose at Marvel's way of doing things and wondering why they kept slipping in the charts) and they really resented it, from their perspective they had Superman and top artists, Marvel had a bunch of weirdo "superheroes" and "ugly art" (in their minds), what right did those punks have beating them? What they simply couldn't understand is that Marvel had revolutionised comics storytelling, and one of the chief architects of that (arguably THE chief) was Jack Kirby. So it was a real coup stealing him away from Marvel. On paper, they wanted him to give them the edge over the competition - but that would mean changing how things were done at DC and that they were NOT interested in. The classic "please fix this problem without changing anything, in fact tell us that we were right all along". So they kind of sabotaged him from the beginning. He'd come in with all these ideas and they'd shoot them down or ignore them or half-ass them into failure. They hired him as an "Editor" but they insisted that he write and draw everything - he envisaged starting off several titles, coaching and mentoring his own replacements and handing them over, and moving onto the next big idea. Which he sort of did early on at Marvel where he drew a lot of layouts for other artists, or helped them out over the phone when Stan left them with a really thin "plot" and they had no idea what to do. Thus a "Kirby house style" was born. But at DC that was a non-starter, they gave him the empty title of Editor but they didn't want him getting ideas above his station and expanding a political power base (like the other Editors had). Thus when he suggested handing over Fourth World to other creators to continue, or just getting Kamandi et al started, it was rejected out of hand and he had to make Sophie's Choice. According to Evanier, when Fourth World was canned he holed himself up for a few days to mourn. Then when he was done he went to his drawing board and straight back to work. That was his work ethic.

Kirby, the King of Comics! Great video Ed and Jim.

In one of the Kirby magazines I had read that they believe that when Kirby created devil dinosaur, that it was his biography about being the old artist at the company. And that even the villains of the story represented some of the obstacles he was facing and feeling.

Incredible show...! The only thing I was looking forward to , is when Will Eisner talks about Jack wanting to beat up gangsters because of some serviettes replacements? Does anyone know what I'm talking about? Anyway, thanks for the love for the medium guys! I think you are a force we all need ! Godspeed!

There ARE a lot of water towers in Marvels.

I'm reading Marvel Comics: The Untold Story right now, and their take on Kirby's involvement with Spider-Man was that Stan tasked him with fleshing out a character idea he had that was Spider-Man in broad strokes (teenage outcast has something happen to him to give him special powers), but Stan didn't like what Kirby came back with so he kicked it over to Steve Ditko, who actually came up with the costume, the origin, etc.

Looks like the infamous Harlan Ellison interview that offended half the people in the industry (and I believe Harlan said was one of the big things in his life he wishes he could take back, lol) has been mentioned, but may I highly suggest the first Comics Journal John Byrne interview that insulted the remaining half and contains comments about Jack that leave a bad taste in my mouth decades later. That conversation set the foundation for Byrne’s legendary jackassery and is frankly hilarious in its disrespect and egotism.

I'd *love* to hear the original audio recording. Does it still exist, somewhere?

Great interview with the man himself and the luminaries of early 90s comics (plus other admirers) in this classic episode of TV Ontario's Prisoners of Gravity, which was co-created and hosted by Rick Green, who also was a member of the Frantics sketch comedy troupe and co-created The Red Green Show. Mark Askwith was a producer I think and if the opening credits look familiar, they were drawn by Ty Templeton! ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-1t7TnnMFl5s.html

this is going to be fun

i would love to see the a series of Kirby reviews in this chanel like the read moore comics

I thought I read that Infantino himself wasn't crazy about having Kirby at DC. Glad to hear it wasn't the case (I'm a fan, either way). Always kept it in mind, though, and when I sat through Batman V Superman I felt I was privy to the worst nightmares of Carmine Infantino (now attributed to early 70s DC editorial).

This might be a bit of a hail Mary, but I think itd be cool for you guys to do a collab with the jacked Kirby podcast. They're super cool and in depth with all kinds of Kirby stuff both popular and kinda niche.

The fourth world books were selling well but were oversized pagecount wise.They had extra pages.

well done

LOL ! 1:08:57 That reminded me the inker Vince Colletta

Early speculation and affidavit fraud prematurely ended runs of several titles back in the day. Books never made it to the newsstand and distorted sales figures hurting books like Fourth World and Neal Adams Deadman and Green Lantern, and for a point BWS Conan.

I enjoyed this so much. In "A Marvelous Life," I got a lot more exposure to Kirby behind the scenes and it helped me get a feel for just how much he did for Marvel. Lee was wrong to claim sole creatorship in his work with Kirby. You guys made a great point about Kirby claiming to have created Spider-Man. It sounds like everyone had dirty hands in claiming ownership over some of these characters. Although what I hear from Ditko, he was a real straight-shooter. Too bad things were so poorly documented/credited as far as I can tell from trying to look back at all thia stuff now in a vaccum. Big question for anyone still here. Whose idea was it to have Cap throw his shield in issue 3? It happens in the prose story in issue 3, but then it happens in the fight against the The Butterfly in the very next comic adventure. They were all published that month in the same issue of Captain America Comics. I think that definitely is part of what makes Cap iconic.

Tom Brevoort posted scans of all eight issues of the Words and Pictures newsletter on his blog: tombrevoort.com/?s=wap

IIRC, Tom Breevort's site/blog has a few WAP editions

There's a story about when Stan lee was the inkwell/sandwich kid. Simon & Kirby were moonlighting for another company and meeting at lunchtime. Stan Lee begs to come along until the finally let him. Shortly afterword. Simon & Kirby are admonished for moonlighting. If you guys find any articles in that zine about Gene Colan. I would be all over that.

36:00 In Stan Lee's defense, and I'm being very generous in spite of what I know about him right now, he DID cocreate Jennifer Walters a.k.a. the She-Hulk with John Buscema so universal studios would not get their hands on the right to do that after the Hulk tv series ended.

There's a speculation that the Stan Lee crying story comes from Lee needing to find replacement artists after his friend Joe Maneely had just died in an accident. So Lee was distressed for a personal reason when he talked to Kirby, but Marvel wasn't closing down or anything. And then 30 years later, Kirby remembers that detail and conflates it with Marvel's later success to produce a much more dramatic story. That narrative makes sense to me.

Ed and Jim, you have to listen to this.1987 Kirby radio interview. It's Jack's 70th birthday. Wait until you get to the part where Stan Lee (Stanley) calls in. It has also been transcribed in the Jack Kirby Collector. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-A1yJZKDwIRE.html

"Put in a water tower" I was dying....only true Marvel nerds would get that. Recently came across your channel and checking out the episodes, they are great.

Send us those wap's, holds different weight now lol

Did you see what Stan lee’s description on His(lame) creation of the Incredible Hulk?

About 59:08 - Kirby heading to California

Jack The King Kirby: ARCHITECT of both the MCU and DCEU

In regards to WAP, Tom Brevort lately has been "revisiting" each issue in his blog tombrevoort.com/?s=WAP

Dave sim two parter

5:06 this is why I don't have a lot of floppies from the big 2 lying around.

KIRBY

Gotta think Alex Raymond had to be an influence on Jack.

The sad part of this is Kirby took credit for everything even stuff he didn’t do. So from one perspective that Stan Lee is given too much credit, Kirby took from Stan and Steve Ditko on Spider-Man, from Don Heck on Iron Man and even Stan Lee’s brother Larry Lieber. I always felt that Kirby did a lot of the heavy lifting, but I can’t excuse taking credit for everything! Even saying Stan Lee didn’t do anything. At these stage he was taking credit for Captain Marvel with Eddie Herron, which was wrong also.

STAN LEE DOESN'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT MUTATIONS

Male superheroes are not just male power fantasy, it's female power fantasy as well - about men. Women greatly enjoy the superhero movies about men, but the Birds of Prey movie, about female supeheroes, flopped. Likewise, a lot of the reader of the original Conan stories in the early 30s pulps were women, and the standard illustrator for the covers featuring Conan was also a woman.

I just wish Kirby would have lived until the early 2000s. I feel like he would have gotten his due by that point. Nobody can blame Stan lee, he was in the right position at the right time and he was the Steve Jobs of comics. All things considered, it could probably be argued that he was screwed over as well. Kirby, shuster, Siegel, finger and ditko should be the first names that come to mind with the creation of superhero comics. It’s also very telling that lee hated the fact that he was involved in comics admitting it in every interview, whereas Kirby loved being a cartoonist. Think about that for a second. Another point to consider, is that Lee’s business skills should not be overlooked. If it wasn’t for Lee’s connections, leadership and marketing marvel may not have made it. Lee deserves credit but not as the creator and storyteller of the marvel universe. He’s more responsible for making comics popular and mainstream, not to mention going against the comic code, but again, marvel comics is Jack kirbys playground. Stan lee is nothing more than Steve Jobs, which is a complement. I think at some point lee started taking credit for everything due to pressure from the mainstream, not to mention when marvel really started going mainstream, Kirby was ill. Kirby was Wozniak and lee was jobs, but I still feel like Kirby would have finally received the recognition he deserved if he would have made it to the new millininium.

Comics Journal was always notorious for carrying an anti-superhero bias. Their heyday was back in the early 90's, when RAW and other "serious" indie comics were clamoring for attention. That audience is what CJ mainly catered to, which is a shame because they SHOULD have been promoting an inclusive "big tent" approach to comics. That could have helped them go mainstream as legit literature a lot sooner.

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