Jaron Lanier - Could Our Universe be a Fake? 

This feels like the type of conversations that carried on in record shops in the 90s

“We are so profoundly non-special from the perspective of this deity that we may as well not exist.” Well. That was a brutal way to start my morning. Off to work at my job now. And boy am I motivated!! ..... lol

At the end when he humbly laughs at what he probably talks about casually with his colleagues and maybe even joke around, make no mistake, that is the frontier of our knowledge as we know it so far. Don’t take life too seriously everyone.

Ultimately, it doesn't matter, we have to live as if it's real, even if it isn't.

If this universe is a simulation it is the worst open world RPG ever.

Exactly as he said, what difference would it make? The only difference is that some higher form of intelligence designed the algorithm that started the universe. And the algorithm probably didn't have to be that complicated. Amazingly complex things can arise from simple beginnings. Take the example of life itself.

You could tell Jaron was new to the idea of differently sized infinities… yet he stayed open to the concept with grace and humility. That’s a mark of not only mental intelligence, but just as importantly- social intelligence.

Im always interested what he has to say. He can make a complex way of thinking sound very logical.

I think there's no way to ever know, even in the most perfect simulation. The creators of a simulation couldn't even know if they were in a simulation.

"some infinities are larger than other infinities" followed by "I think we're coming to the point where we dont know what were talking about". BY GOD I THINK HES RIGHT!

love it. :) great discussion tyvm! Shine on! :) love to see the good stuff on here, and you two are awesome!

"I don't know what to do with my hands" -Jaron Lanier

Aside from the topic, I love how animated Jaron is.

This guy with the locs is a lovely man his energy is very sweet

This simulation really creeps me out but this man just brightened it up and made me feel a little better about it.

"We can take it, we can have fun with it, but I think there's a very serious aspect to it as well."

I had to smoke some DMT for this conversation to make sense. ...and it did.

7:06 love how awkward this ending was

A couple of interesting things not mentioned in the video; game developers have to follow very specific code in order for their games to function, that could, in essence, be what we consider the laws of physics. Also, game textures are broken down into pixels, which would equate to us looking at something on a molecular level.

This guy makes me want to scratch my head, figuratively and literally.

I don’t actually buy the simulation theory at all, but - just to play devil’s advocate: if a child was plugged into a simulation at birth, the simulation doesn’t actually have to be accurate or true to real life at all. It merely has to be consistent - since it’s all you’ve ever known, you’ll have nothing to compare with. It also doesn’t need to simulate quantum effects - it merely has to simulate the results you’d expect from quantum effects, the readings on your instruments, and so on. The simulation would have literally taught you everything you know, and it doesn’t need to resemble anything from the “real world” at all, because you wouldn’t know what the “real world” is - it would just have to deliver consistently on whatever rules the simulation follows, because that would be all you know. It’s fun to play with these ideas and challenge your own logic, just don’t let the ideas drive you crazy 😜

we do not have enough information and knowlidge to determine wtf is going on, that is the only realistic point of view at this moment

I love how when Kuhn says someone had to make this universe and Jarren says maybe someone won it in a contest lol

Our universe was created in one of his dreadlocks.

The fact that we are talking about the possibility that we are living in a simulation shows how strange reality is.

Sometimes, when I open my eyes after sleeping, for the BRIEFEST of moments I'll be somewhere else. I'm in a place that is all metal, or at least it appears as such. My surroundings are always the same, a long and narrow passage, like a corridor or hallway. At the bottom of the wall, where it joins with the floor, there is like a metallic molding that is, apparently, housing a light source. The entire experiences is always crazy, but the CHARACETERISTICS OF THE LIGHT is by far the craziest part: it's always the same color, red, but it's somehow fluid-like, fabric-like, and it even feels alive somehow. I don't know what it all means, if it indeed means anything, but one thing I DO KNOW: If we happen to live in a "matrix style simulation," the AI who enslaved us did a piss poor job of representing light lol....

maybe could be we are in the year 5000 and the technology has evolved so much that it is able to simulate whole worlds completely identical to the real world ... and so we are all in a simulation set in 2019. bladerunner, teaches.

Hypothetically speaking, if we were in a simulation, I think it would be safe rto assume that a sufficiently advanced civilization would have computer-neural interfacing. Such a civilization would have computers that could send information directly into a person's brain. A person's brain would be the processor and any additional memory needed for the program to function. Thus the simulation would seem real to whoever is hooked up to the computer.

5:55 - You can't claim that the same limitations we face would also apply to the simulation operator. For all practical purposes the simulation operator may as well be God.

I hope he is healthy enough to live into old age. he is an important mind for us to have.

There is so much profit with this conversation. Sooo beneficial

"I'm all four serious inquiry into this subject matter.". Then: that gesture and Giggle at the end = I'm glad someone is...

The multiverse theory is a way to avoid dealing with the Prime Mover concept in Aristotelian physics which is a postulate of fundamental reality versus infinite nameable possibilities. Because the multiverse cannot be verified but only speculated, it remains science fiction. A more satisfying and also more intellectually fruitful theory is the anti-materialist concept which makes scientific thought and discovery a conscious process rather than the result of mere chance event. In other words, a Supreme Intelligent Being who is the source of all that exists.

Quantum effects might just be present in the simulation, maybe outside there would be none and something entirely different.

He basically said while avoiding saying it, god is so beyond our understanding we shouldn’t even try to understand him. Word, I felt that. Mean while he’s assuming that he’s so beyond us he wouldn’t care about us..

I think the scariest part is out of the 7 or so billion people on earth. Not one of us truly knows why we’re here. Some people say they do but really no one knows why we are here.

Could gravity be running our universe as a program on a quantum field multiverse computer?

People that are considered smart in comparison to others sure do presuppose A LOT. Well if they say that, then that means..... NO, Dude. It doesn't.

I'm seeing everyone's comments saying they had these types of convos in their garages in the 90s. It's funny because a song by the rapper common titled "all night" has a line that says, masons building lodges/we be in garages/discussing who we boned and what God is/.. Seriously validates how much these types of discussions were normal for people back then. I don't know if so much about today lol.

If you are not aware that it is a simulation, you do not have to worry like a fish in a fish bowl because you do not know anything else. Otherwise, this applies to "So, will anyone disconnect me now?" and "Leave us in hell alone down here, okay?" Maybe the creators also live in a simulation and so on.

this man is very interesting and this video inspired me to watch one of his talks.

We wouldn't just need a quantum computer. We'd need one made of more particles than our entire universe! Why do so many otherwise smart people think this is plausible for any life form?

This conversation is essentially an intellectual sleight of hand. Jaron starts off talking about the hypothetical situation of raising a person in a virtual world. In this scenario, the person isn't a simulation, but the universe they experience is. But shortly thereafter he's talking as though not only the universe is a simulation but everything in it, including the people. There was a HUGE unjustified and unacknowledged leap there.

We observe creatures that are unaware of us, why can’t intelligent creatures be observing us & us not be aware of the observer? Why would we Be excluded from this process?

He starts talking about how with the sheer number of stars and galaxies out there, someone must have made such a simulation. But if we ARE a simulation, then I've got some news for him: none of those stars and galaxies are real. All bets are off as to what the "real" universe is, and what its laws are. Quantum mechanics could just be a bug in the simulation software, so saying that the pimply kid can or can't do something because of the laws of QM is pure guesswork.

Arrrgggg....the many worlds interpretation....holy Occam's nightmare batman.

I think it should be obvious that any device capable of building and running our Universe as a simulation would be outside of our Universe and therefore beyond anything we could describe. It makes way more sense to build a Universe that runs itself - as our Universe does - and inject into it some way of observing that Universe from within it.

2021 been rough on post malone. Jokes aside very thought provoking 👍🏼👍🏼

I wanna know this guys secret. He's really happy.

When you have a social media account you are not just the user you are the product 😉

The reason I don't fully believe the simulation idea is because the beings that are controlling the simulation are likely under the same constraints as we are, if this is a simulation. The Matrix, for example, leaves an open-ended question because outside of the Matrix is just another cave with the same constraints.

That ending though 😂

Even if it was- what is one to do about it?

Hey Jon, whens the next korn album?

We are in a virtual reality. The universe is information wave patterns, and our body and brain translate them into sights, sounds, smells and sensations that make sense to us for the purposes of survival and reproduction. There's no need for a human-like creator. Complex patterns can evolve by themselves.

Mind blowing

I’ve had dreams of being in my home town walking around but it’s different in either the year or the world itself has changed into different spanning locations

We are all in the mind of God. And He is in our hearts.

Resolution of potential is the schism between strands. Any particle can witness reality by interacting with it but minds are special because they can consciously resolve reality in accordance with their will. I'm not saying that we invent reality but that we can form a strategy to effect it.

Very entertaining. But sometimes I think that we can think too much. We are like dogs staring at a computer screen, there are a million things that only open up after "death". Best to just use the power we were given to stimulate with kindness the reality of those on Earth, trapped in an alternative Hell of unbelievable poverty and distress.

That final statement by the interviewer was a powerful admission that while he is intelligent his mind is very open to that which we dont yet know. Very cool

You can tell how old someone is by how they convey their image of an archetypal gamer.

Interesting!!!

If it can be fake, why can't it just be real? The fake universe has to be a real something.

God is a bored video game kid. I like this :-D:-D

This made me feel so much better. I thought I may have damaged my brain from past acid use, but clearly I am way better of than some

Even a quantum computer would have lag and glitches based on how the hardware is being used up.. You would need events and situations within the simulation that has the ability to free up the quantum computers hardware. Maybe why we lose our sight and things go blurry, or not being able to have a massive memory and why we forget things. Events and Situations in a simulation that happen to free up the hardware, and so sometimes lagging and glitches happen inside a quantum computer.. The problem is, if everyone and everything becomes more complex and has the ability to improve everything, and using technology to improve, then they would use up those resources or hardware of a quantum computer, and then the lagging and glitches will be more extensive..

Love that final statement.

The only simulation is the lies we are fed to keep us dumb and addicted to sin and not realizing we are all love and enlightened beings.

When i see hair like this i always wonder - how the hell do you wash it? On the topic: the ultimate question is CAN you simulate consciousness, can you simulate conscious experience? We still cant answer this question. Maybe yes in theory... but we still dont know if consciousness just arise from a very complex neural network activity and is just an illusion or is it sort of a separate entity that can exist with or without brain. Ask yourself - are you an illusion? ... You probably wont like that question.

ARE WE IN A SIMULATION-Those of us who lucid dream and have OBEs sometimes have the experience of living in different times and lives of other people. For example, I experienced a life where I had married a woman I used to date and had a series of lucid dreams where we were living in Washington DC with two kids. If you are aware of the Nicholas Cage movie Family Man, it felt as real and mundane as his alternate life. On other occasions I have lived lives totally unrelated to my current one as completely different people. I once asked the question in a dream “is this a simulation” I was immediately pulled in to a town in the old West. It was like West World and I became completely lucid and was taken over to the sheriff’s office and questioned about what I was doing in town. I went in to the bar and ordered a whiskey. It tasted real. I reached in to my pocket and pulled out authentic looking gold coins. I think I got my question answered. -Mike

A simulation can only be considered "fake" if held up against the thing it is simulating. In and of itself it is quite real.

I am quickly becoming a Lanier fan.

Post Malone is a big brained neeba!

Great Convo… Especially While or After Blowing Down Some Good Weed!! lol

The thing our universe is, is not an indication of "real," as "reality" is a flase construct that is built upon an agreed perception of everything from beauty to time. So it doesn't matter that our universe is non-physical, because our experience is agreed to be "reality" and "real."

Higher order infinity? Infinity +1? Sounds like semantic BS to me.

this dude needs a haircut and a treadmill

When they proved atoms are made of light made me question everything

Also, when people try to observe the quantum world? They cant see it in action, because seeing it in action would also lag the simulation..

I imagine this conversation being held in a comic book store

Here's what I think. The LHC is are shooting protons at each other at the speed of light and basically creating a little "big bang" each time so they can study what happens. I think that each time they create a little "big bang" they're are actually creating a whole universe just like ours and eventually some or all will create life within them to us it seems small and impossible but to the ones that evolve in those universes it's huge just like ours is to us. So I could see how we could be a tiny "big bang" that was studied for a little while an put away on the shelf. But now we're doing it which leads to the multiverse but I don't think I would be able to explain anything farther since I already haven't a clue about how it goes

Contradiction is our problem, we believe things cannot contradict eachother and that’s why we can not make sense of the real world. Because for us it has to be a clear one sided answer for anything and everything. Maybe yes and no both are joined together in a world where more then one possibility and outcome has and will take place.

How would someone simulate feelings and consciousness?

The fact that Post Malone took the time to travel back in time and attempt to let us in on what has happened since is at minimum, considerate.

I do not know if this will get to Jaron, but it might be of some interest to him. 5 years ago I was riding with friends in Cheyenne Wyoming, and looked up and say numbers of black in the sky, like a a tag stamp on the sky. I was not alone when I say this, others in the car say this also. To me it looked like a maker or time stamp on the sky. Strange yet true.

What I find to be rather hilarious with the simulation theory is that they’ve arrived at the same idea as previous religions; that there is a creator entity. This goes seemingly unnoticed as atheists rationally discuss if there is an intelligent creator behind this universe.

I think I met him at the Fillmore at a Doors concert in the sixties

oh look the purple eye of Sauron - someone better rescue these two dupes

The human brain is astounding in its ability to fantasize and speculate. This interview was really fun, and I loved the idea of the pimply kid as god. Also, our pimply kid god would be a heck of a lot more entertaining than the ones we've invented.

Holographic Universe Hypothesis Hypothesis: The Physical Universe as a 3-Dimensional Hologram internally projected from a 2-Dimensional Event Horizon. • Introduction: This hypothesis suggests that our Universe is a Holographic Projection, where the Three-Dimensional Space we Perceive is a Holographic Illusion, and the "real" Reality exists as a Two-Dimensional Information Structure Encoded on the Event Horizon of a Black Hole. This hypothesis is based on several concepts in Modern Physics, including Hawking Radiation, Zero-Point Energy, Vacuum Energy, and Virtual Particles. ● Black Hole Event Horizon and Information: According to Classical Physics, Black Holes possess an Event Horizon, a Boundary beyond which Nothing can Escape, including Light. This Event Horizon can be considered a Two-Dimensional Surface surrounding the Black Hole, referred to as the Holographic Screen. The Holographic Principle, derived from String Theory and Black Hole Thermodynamics, states that all the Information Contained within a region can be Encoded on its Boundary. • Black Holes and Information Paradox: Black Holes are fascinating objects predicted by Einstein's General Theory of Relativity. According to Stephen Hawking's work on Black Hole Thermodynamics, Black Holes Emit Radiation called Hawking Radiation. This Radiation carries away Energy and reduces the Mass of a Black Hole over Time, eventually causing it to Evaporate completely. However, this poses a problem known as the "Information Paradox." If all the Information that falls into a Black Hole is lost when it Evaporates, it Violates the Principle of Quantum Mechanics that states Information Must Be Conserved. • Holography and 3-Dimensional Projection: Using the Holographic Principle as a foundation, it is hypothesized that the Information Encoded on the Black Hole's Event Horizon is Projected in Three Dimensions, forming our Observable Universe. This Projection Mechanism is akin to a Hologram, where a Two-Dimensional Surface Encodes a Three-Dimensional Image. • Holographic Principle: The Holographic Principle, proposed by Gerard 't Hooft and Leonard Susskind, suggests that all the Information contained within a Region of Space can be Encoded on its Boundary. This principle originated from the study of Black Hole Physics and has been linked to the concept of Quantum Gravity. In the context of this hypothesis, it implies that the Three-Dimensional Reality we Perceive might be a Holographic Projection Encoded on a Two-Dimensional Surface. • Event Horizon as a 2-Dimensional Information Structure: The Event Horizon of a Black Hole is the Boundary beyond which Nothing, including Light, can Escape its Gravitational Pull. The Event Horizon is a Two-Dimensional Surface, and according to the Holographic Principle, it could store all the Information about the Black Hole's Interior. This Information can be seen as a Holographic Projection of a Lower-Dimensional Reality. • Hawking Radiation and Holography: Hawking Radiation, arising from Quantum Effects near the Event Horizon, suggests that Black Holes emit Particles and Energy. These Particles, known as Virtual Particles, can Appear spontaneously and Annihilate each other shortly after. According to the Holographic Principle, these Virtual Particles and the associated Quantum Fluctuations can be understood as Fluctuations of the Two-Dimensional Holographic Information on the Event Horizon. The apparent Three-Dimensional Space we Perceive is a Manifestation of these Holographic Fluctuations. • Vacuum Energy and Zero-Point Energy: In Quantum Field Theory, the Vacuum is not Empty but Filled with Fluctuating Fields, giving rise to what is known as Vacuum Energy or Zero-Point Energy. The Holographic Principle suggests that the Energy associated with these Quantum Fluctuations is Encoded in the Two-Dimensional Holographic Description on the Event Horizon. The Energy of the Vacuum and the Fluctuations within it could account for the Properties and Dynamics of the Three-Dimensional Holographic Projection we Experience. • Emergent Spacetime and Virtual Particles: Virtual Particles, constantly Appearing and Disappearing due to Quantum Fluctuations, are another important aspect of this hypothesis. These Particles Emerge from the Quantum Vacuum and can be seen as Excitations or Perturbations in the Holographic Description on the Event Horizon. These Fluctuations can give rise to the apparent Properties of Spacetime, such as the Curvature, Particle Interactions, and Forces we Observe in our Three-Dimensional Reality. ● Orch-OR Theory and Consciousness: Orchestrated Objective Reduction (Orch-OR) theory, proposed by Physicist Sir Roger Penrose and Anesthesiologist Stuart Hameroff, suggests that Consciousness Emerges from Quantum Processes occurring in Microtubules within Brain Cells. The Holographic Hypothesis incorporates Orch-OR by emphasizing the significance of Consciousness in the Projection of the 3D Holographic Universe. It proposes that Consciousness is not solely an Emergent Property of the Brain but is Fundamental and Intimately connected to the Underlying Fabric of Reality. ● Consciousness and Projection: Consciousness, as a Fundamental Aspect of Reality, is posited to interact with the Information encoded on the Event Horizon. It is hypothesized that Conscious Observation and Intentionality may Influence the Projection Process, potentially Shaping our Reality on a Fundamental Level. This Interaction between Consciousness and the Holographic Projection is yet to be fully understood, but it suggests that our Conscious Awareness is not merely a Passive Observer but an Active Participant in the Construction of our Perceived Reality. ● Consciousness as the Projector of Reality: Building upon the Holographic Principle, this hypothesis proposes that Consciousness plays a crucial role in Manifesting and Projecting Reality. It suggests that Individual Consciousnesses, when Unified or Interconnected in some way, act as Projectors that Generate the Perceived Reality. This Collective Consciousness creates the Illusion of a Three-Dimensional World by Projecting it from a Higher-Dimensional Realm onto the Lower-Dimensional Space we experience. • Co-Creation and Interdependence: This hypothesis implies that Reality is not solely the result of an External Objective Reality but is Co-Created by the Collective Consciousness. It suggests that our Subjective Experiences and Perceptions are intimately intertwined with the Nature of Reality itself, forming a Symbiotic Relationship where Consciousness shapes Reality, and Reality shapes Consciousness in return. • Experimental Implications: If this hypothesis were correct, it would have significant implications for our understanding of the Nature of Reality. It would suggest that our Perception of a Three-Dimensional Universe is an Emergent Property of a Two-Dimensional Holographic Description. ● In conclusion, this hypothesis proposes that our Universe is a Three-Dimensional Holographic Projection originating from the Two-Dimensional Event Horizon of a Black Hole. This concept is based on the Holographic Principle, which suggests that all the Information within a region of Space can be Encoded on its Boundary. The Holographic Nature of our Reality is supported by various concepts in modern Physics, including Hawking Radiation, Zero-Point Energy, Vacuum Energy, and Virtual Particles. By considering the Information Paradox associated with Black Holes, the Holographic Principle provides a potential solution by suggesting that the Event Horizon acts as a Two-Dimensional Information Structure storing all the Information about the Black Hole's Interior. This information can be viewed as a Projection of a Lower-Dimensional Reality onto the Three-Dimensional Spacetime we Perceive. The Emission of Hawking Radiation from Black Holes, consisting of Virtual Particles arising from Quantum Effects near the Event Horizon, further supports the Holographic Nature of our Universe. These Virtual Particles and the associated Quantum Fluctuations can be understood as Fluctuations of the Two-Dimensional Holographic Information encoded on the Event Horizon. The apparent Three-Dimensional Space we Observe is a Manifestation of these Holographic Fluctuations. Additionally, the Vacuum Energy or Zero-Point Energy, which is the Energy associated with Quantum Fluctuations in the Empty Space, can be linked to the Holographic description on the Event Horizon. The Energy of the Vacuum, along with the Fluctuations within it, could account for the Properties and Dynamics of the Three-Dimensional Holographic Projection we experience. Furthermore, the emergence of Spacetime and the behavior of Virtual Particles can be explained within the Holographic Framework. Virtual particles, arising from Quantum Fluctuations, can be seen as Excitations or Perturbations in the Holographic description on the Event Horizon. These fluctuations give rise to the apparent properties of Spacetime, including Curvature, Particle Interactions, and Forces that we Observe in our Three-Dimensional Reality.

6:40 - Maybe. Maybe we're profoundly inconsequential. But I don't think we can be totally sure of that. If you take a really deep look at the numerical probabilities that characterize the spontaneous appearance of life, you'll see that the odds were very, very much against life appearing. Obviously it's happened at least once - because here we are. But I think a very good chance exists that we are the only sentient beings in our universe. That's how unusual it would be for amino acids to just "accidentally fall together" into the right proteins to bootstrap life. If we're the only sentient beings in the model, then I imagine the pimply kid would be quite interested in us. However, it is possible he might not be *aware* of us, given the unbelievably small impact we've had on our "local neighborhood."

Simulator Coder: "I guess Ill make one of the guys who realizes hes in a simulation the longest dredlocks in history of the universe. It will give him credibility."

Extremely fascinating hair.

WHY? What would be the purpose. Even in a real universe the cost and complexity to maintain a perfect and coherent simulation of our world would be prohibitive unless there was a real need for it.

I think this whole premise is based on the idea that computers can house sentient minds. I don't believe any computer we'll ever build, of the sort we build today, will ever be able to do this. It's not a matter of size, power, or complexity. Our computers are utterly deterministic mechanisms - nowhere in their architecture or physics is there any possible "seat of sentience." Now, this doesn't rule out the idea that some different kind of construct might be able to house a mind, or, for that matter, an entire universe full of them. I don't see the simulation hypothesis as subject to either proof or disproof - that makes it an invalid question for science to even consider. If you can propose an experiment that will settle the issue, then great. If not? Go do actual real science. In any case, let's say we are in a simulation. So what? We're in a universe. We're able to be aware of our own existence. We're able to share experiences, love, pursue happiness, etc. What does it matter if it's a "real" universe or a simulation? Also, explaining our universe by saying it's a simulation that was deliberately created does us absolutely no good scientifically - one is still left with the need to explain the rise of sentient life in that "outermost real" universe. The proposal doesn't advance us scientifically in any way, nor does it propose ever to do so. It's a waste of time - this issue is out in the weeds.

As soon as an efficient quantum computer is made and running, civilianisation will advance so much in such a short amount of time.

if there is some sort of "Player" out there with his own rule book, he surely got us when he assured us the Narcissist card!

If we could ever be able to create a technology that could simulate reality, then how could we be sure that we didn't do that in the past and aren't simulating ourselves already? But if not yet, then someday we will do that and our simulated humans will sit on their chairs watching this exact video and wonder if that could ever be true, not realizing it at all (until some point).

A good yet preposterous idea.