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I don't see why Netflix shouldn't be interested in the sort of documentary Jay mentioned. They've made fun documentaries about toys from the same era, but surely the music is more important. Would love to see it.
The Wrecking Crew is all over the place but the ones who came after them such as Graydon, Lukather, Foster, Castro and late Porcaro don't get enough recognition from the mainstream media and this really pisses me off!
He's so right. THank You Jay for speaking out the truth. But there are still Musicians out there that are goin the real way, the harder way, the good way of music. You and David have inspired Musicians for ever and our Kids are inspired by Your music. I just hope You could find the time to check out what is going on right now all over the world.
Much respect to Jay. He is among the thousands of writers, producers, (studio) musicians who don't get nearly the credit they deserve. He reminds me of a man who worked in a music store in a mall in rural N.J. I would frequent back in 1975-76 as a teenager. The enthusiasm thus man had for music and teaching me a different chord on the guitar when I would show up lead me to see all music from a whole new perspective that I carry to this day. I hope and pray he can get this done because we are losing greats every year. God bless him.
As a listener/buyer/and supporter of many styles of music for the last 50 years, I would imagine there must be literally hundreds of thousands, if not millions of fans all round the world, who, like me based there record buying choices on the basis of who the players were on the particular record they would be looking to buy. I would be more than happy to pay to view a documentary/series based round the great session players that contributed so much to the making of so many great albums/CD's.These recordings have enriched our lives, and will live on in the same way classic jazz/blues/gospel/soul is.
What really has died out is people playing a song together and "feeling out" an arrangement. You don't really hear performances anymore, because in the digital age, the tendency has been to simply smooth over the rough edges -- because you can. I don't think music has necessarily gotten worse or the industry any worse -- the LP/CD era was a bubble -- but the humanity is being slowly stripped out of it. I think about a record like Are You Experienced being made today. Jimi barely hits a right note on that record, vocally, but it still sounds amazing. Today, they would try to Melodyne that vocal into oblivion to make it "right." Same with Paul's little laugh on "Maxwell's Silver Hammer." An engineer today would have flown in a chunk from another take without even thinking about it. But these are the little things that give music their humanity and help us to connect with them. People are just as talented as they've ever been -- what we've lost is our ability to value our humanity in the arts.
I wish he could make this documentary!! I agree with everything he said. I’m a retired musician with classical roots but lover of progressive rock and other genres.
Absolutely true!! Bravo Jay Graydon!! all the melodies and chord changes and REAL MUSICIANSHIP disappeared! It was a planned murder and they succeeded with it!
For context, I'm 57. That said, while I get where Jay is coming from there's a real danger in judging the state of music simply on the charts. That may have been a valid benchmark a few decades ago, but not today. There's a LOT of really great music being made, but it's not bothered about charts. It finds its own audience and the relationship is between the artist and audience without the monolithic 'industry' managing and controlling it - and indeed often ripping off the artists. I absolutely LOVE what Jay Gradon does. He's a real hero, and I dare say a lot of his gripe is based on his own experience of being a successful musician / session guy in a world where that career is no longer lucrative like it once was. However, for a LOT of artists who may never have got a record deal back in the day, the tools are there now for them to create and to connect directly with the natural audience for their music. Finally, let's not forget that since the 50s chart music has been upsetting people - from Elvis, through punk, disco, rave, hip hop etc, people have ALWAYS grizzled about the state of music. Now, I'm off to continue surfing RU-vid and listen to great new music that will never trouble the charts.
Fair observation. I was a child of the 70s/80s, but it wasn't until a few years ago that I really got who was behind all the sounds dominating a good share of the airwaves. They made magic. And there's always more to be made. I remember telling a friend in the early 2000s where I thought modern music was heading. With Top 40 becoming increasingly dry, robotic, and compressed, folks may go back to making their own music for themselves and small audiences. With affordable technology and internet, anything good or great is more possible now than it was in the past. Yeah the price tag can go into the 4-figure range, but that's down from the 6- or 7-figure range of producing good music a ways back. Major improvement. And I admit I haven't sought it out. What groups or artists turn your ear these days?
You stated my exact sentiments so perfectly. The people that demonize "free music" are often the same people who demonize "the industry" for exploiting the talented artists for profit. Well, you can't have it both ways. You can't reap the financial benefits of being in the "club" of people who were chosen by the record companies, and then complain when technology allows the doors of opportunities to be opened to talented people who otherwise wouldn't have gotten a chance - like you said. I'm all for the technology allowing for people to try their music out on an audience. The audience will decide what they like, and ya the audience might be smaller than if you were one of 100 artists on a label they happened to be pushing through radio play and sponsored tours, etc, but it also is a GENUINE audience, because they have the freedom to seek out so much other music. Great summarization. Thank you for your comment. By the way, I'm a professional musician (piano bar for 13 years) who also writes songs that nobody hears.. lol. Don't care about a career - just want the freedom to write and present to an audience if I so wish to.
@@marlaplunk2833 Artists can't even get paid for their intellectual property anymore because music theft is considered absolutely fine to do nowadays. The music business is done. People think the music is owed to them.
Jay Graydon: great producer, guitarist, and even singer. Love Al Jarreau's albums. Andy Platts (Mamas Gun, Young Gun Silver Fox) still does it the old way: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-_J-XXrwYIjg.html ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-E1JiTkufJgY.html Greatest bands no know knows about in America.
I admire Jay and everything he has done. But imo the falldown of pop music is way more complex. I don't think this can be pinned down to new music styles like rap, grunge or whatever. The whole world changed so much since the 70s, and the structures are just very different from back then. But for a lot of us this will remain the best time and the peak of pop music. So it's always a good thing to tell the stories and share the knowledge.
Urs. I'm so happy you did this BRILLIANT interview with Jay. One magical thing that happened was when you asked about Sembello, Omartian, Landau and Buchanan. I had always wanted to get more insight about these musicians, and YOU asked the greatest Producer/Engineer ever, Graydon!! Thank you
The US talent renaissance of post-WWII was driven by technology and education, a lot of which we inherited from Germany, Austria, Japan, et al. Americans benefited from a massive exodus and brain drain from Europe and Asia, in that we gained the best scientists, inventors, thinkers, teachers and artistic performers that money could buy. Sadly, we've been on a downward slope of that high mountain ever since the 1990s.
I relive the 70s and 80s everyday on my Spotify, I can’t wait for yacht rock radio to come back to Sirius radio this summer with that feel good beat NTM it brings back memories of happier times to the point it brings tears to my eyes.🥲
Man!!!! I do hope that Jay gets the funding to make that documentary. This idea that he had need to get documented. Please lord,make it possibility for Jay to receive the funds for this.
I would LOVE to watch Jay’s documentary! Interesting interview . Thanks 🙏🏻
2 года назад
Man, if I would have the money to fund this guy, I would definitely freaking do it, even if I do not get any type of revenue out of it. The knowledge this guy has, it MUST to be preserved.
Yeah, Jay knows stuff, stories, the questions to ask (even if he already knows the answers) for the viewer. I could probably liquidate and come up with the million two, but then I’d be the dude on the corner with the cardboard sign, except I’d really be asking for a meal, not a beer.
Couldn't agree more with this guy. I too have felt that music took a strange turn around 1988. To me that is kind of when the 80s ended. 1987 was a good year though as many classic bands from earlier made a come back and had pretty good records that year. Including Yes, Pink Floyd, Grateful Dead, Fleetwood Mac and quite a few others. There were also many mainstream artist releasing decent music that year. The airwaves were never dull from lack of variety and then everything went to complete an total shit. It marked the end of an era sadly. That is just my 2 cents.
That’s why I say Guns N Roses was the last true “new” band. -1987 They revived rock and it gave way to grunge but unfortunately the true hard rick didn’t last.
He's right. By the 90's, most good music was gone. Music in the 90's and beyond was mostly a bunch of hooks repeated endlessly over a click-track. It was SO repetitive while almost everything had a heavy R&B feel to it. There was NO variety anymore and no well-constructed songs with moving melodies. I quit listening to pop music around the time Graydon describes, 1989-1990. That's why, before he died, when Prince was asked the same question he said, "There are no songs anymore, just ideas of songs." He was referring to the short little hooks with no real verses or a chorus, repeated over and over on top of a click-track. They were parts of songs, but not complete songs.
I totally agree with Jay here ! -I always have said best decade for music (for me ) was 1976 - 1986 -And Jay says it started going to shit 1987 ??? Great vid - SB -British Isles
100% agree! While I was listening him I thought "God I've being saying the exact words for whole my life!". People REALLY don't know who this now old cool cat is! He produced and played various instruments (mainly guitar) on such fantastic records you wouldn't believe. Trust his words,when he and some others (Steve Lukather, Michael Landau, Larry Carlton, Lee Ritenour, Al DiMeola etc. etc) are gone music stops because this people were creating music industry for decades and now it's all fucked up.
There's no question something horrible happened to pop music. In the 80's when I was a teen, I was buying music as fast as it came out. That all stopped around 1991. I remember tuning into radio and suddenly thinking, "What the hell is going on here???" A HUGE shift had occurred. In 1992 as it happens, I went to school to be a recording engineer. I worked at local studios for 4 years and then I just couldn't take it anymore. I thought I would be recording the next Billy Joel or The Police or Whitney Houston or Steeley Dan or Toto. Never happened. The main thing I saw was a lack of creative ability. Most material I recorded sounded like really bad demos that they never knew how to develop and craft into something magical. I also did a lot of rap sessions. Not going to get into that. As for music, I've bought maybe 10 CDs since 1997. To me, the 60's-80's were the peak time for music with a few exceptions.
Agreed. Coincidentally, I stopped listening to pop music in 1990 around the time Graydon specified. I noticed that music in the 90's had very little variety. It all sounded the same to me, lots of hooks repeated endlessly over a click track. It was so repetitive. Lots of songs didn't have a distinct verse, chorus, bridge, chorus structure because they didn't have verses at all. So much of the music had a heavy R&B edge that it all sounded the same. One repetitive song bled into the next. In the 80's, there was Journey, Barry Manilow, Bruce Springsteen, George Benson, and Dolly Parton all in the Top 40 at the same time. There was so much variety, and the creative range was broad. That all disappeared in the 90's almost overnight and only got worse after 2000. It's why Prince, before he passed said, "There are no songs anymore, just ideas of songs." I thought that was an apt description of the state of pop music then and now. He was referring to those short little hooks played over click tracks. It's like they're inspirations for songs that were never fully developed and yet, released as singles anyway. I believe the 60's to 80's was superior to music today because back then, we still had a large number of artists writing their own music and who could really sing. There was real musicianship. Today, the songs are all written by record label hacks and given to performers who are auto-tuned. Today, the emphasis isn't on the music, but the performer as "entertainer", hopping around the stage and lipsynching amidst a light show. It's about spectacle and "celebrity" now and not great music.
It’s true. Pop music today won’t some sophisticated chord structures in the composition. They just borrow popular progressions instead of being original.
It wasn't rap. It was tech. Back in the day, you had to rely on 'the machine' to get a record made. The only way THAT was going to happen was if you wrote a GREAT SONG. There was motivation back in the day that isn't there anymore. These days, ANYONE can 'cut a record'. You can do it in your living room on your laptop. If you COULD still write a song good enough to grab someone's attention to the point that they wanted to pay money to have a recording professionally made, what then? Well, you're NOT going to get rich off album sales are you? Not when people can go listen to your record on youtube anyway. So the motivation of getting rich is also lost, thanks to tech. Rap just happened to be coming on the scene at the time. Grunge came and went, and saw some great music. Some great music has been made in rap as well. But ALL genres have suffered the curse of technology.
The young fellow’s mic is facing backwards. The LED should be facing the source of the sound. Turn it around 180 degrees. (The mic element is on the side of that mic.)
Interesting video, I actually watched this video twice. Mr. Graydon is 100% on point when he says pop music changed after 88'. Mostly automation up to current. While automation is great, there a lot of live playing and recording that doesn't happen anymore. And a lot of "human elements" and production gets 100% left out.
So there is a other element. It is really effecting us all. It is how people now consume everything. It is easy. It is easy for me to drag elements in a program and fool around for a bit and crank out a song. I have a mic. Some instruments. A computer. And so do a tonnnnnnnnn of other people can too. And share it easy with anyone in the world. I don't need a band or even have to tour to gain a following. And again sooooooo many other can and are doing that. Music is easy to make and produce. Same with movies. That changed things. Also people don't listen to music as much as they used to compared to other generations. And the music of their generation sounds very much the same, because it is coming from people who self-produced or 90% of artists are using 1 of 3 music producers (across all types of music). This generations main instrument is a touch pad or computer. They don't give a shit about music theory. But by not having people play instruments as much as made melodies up and disappear. I just bought a guitar (a nice split coil Pacifica) just because I miss hearing melodies and experimentation in music. My goal is to make music for myself. I might share it. I will use computer programs for maybe to get ideas? Recording? Might get a small console, I like buttons. Will maybe get drums and a bass at some point. Might have to find a mix of using a digital and real drums. I have a issue with my left foot, will have to come up with a rig that will allow me to use a high hat as a normal drummer would. I miss playing a instrument and having that moment when things click into place have months of trying. And you know what. I will have to rearrange how I spend my time. And stay focus and committed to this for it to work. And it will IF I put in the time. I am 43. I have no kids. And am angry, depressed, aware of my problems and how to go about facing them. To take that energy and focus it on learning a instrument again. And maybe making something I like. (guitar has not shipped yet)
Jay is a god, and I agree with most of his rant. With the exception of grunge. (Idiotic umbrella term for American rock music in the 90s but so be it.) Nirvana, Alice, STP, etc. were profound on every possible level. As were many of the English bands of the 90s.
Agree. Jay is genius but has he heard Black hole sun? Paranoid android? No excuses? You can't say with a straight face there's no musicianship and invention in there - in the former case an amazing chord sequence
Exactly what I was thinking. Foster is a longstanding friend of Jay and contributor to much of their greatest work. He's got tons of money, unless he's paying lots out on his numerous failed marriages and pusuit of young pretty things. I wouldn't want to hear too much of Foster speak, he's a great musician but an arrogant SOAB.
Jay doesnt need a million dollars to do a documentary on 1st-call studio cats. He just needs to call/email all his old friends and interview them on zoom. It literally takes no money to do this. This could be done in a podcast format which would give each of these guys time to talk about their history and all their own stories which would be much better than little 5 mintue cuts in a documentary. Larry Carlton and Steve Lukather have both done the rounds as far as being interviewed on podcasts, especially Steve. But the the most important thing to talk about is their musical training, because thats the reason all the big name studio cats got where they are, they were trained in traditional music. Which means they know how to read music, they know theory, they understand harmony at a root level. So that leads to the question as to why there are no good studio musicians now because people still go get music degrees in college. So the question remains, why is there so much bland shit music? Why is no one making music to the same level as Steely Dan? My personal belief is that its a generation of kids who grew up watching MTV videos and got used to lip synching and air guitar on videos.
I love Jay, I think he’s brilliant, along with Lukather, Chaplan, the Porcaro Bro’s, Lee Ritenour and many more. They were all masters of their craft! It’s ironic though how his opinion of modern’ish music genres is very reminiscent of how our parents felt when Rock & Roll started becoming mainstream. They felt it ruined music and was loud racket played by a bunch of rebellious punks. Interestingly I’m good friends with a retired radio DJ, he credits Jay’s contemporary David Foster with single-handedly ruining Chicago and Peter Cetera’s sound on their 80’s collaborations. He also believes that Foster combined with the immense popularity and accessibility of the Yamaha DX7 with ruining pop music. I personally believe the mainstream consumers are the primary culprit, as they prefer their music to be an unchallenging and predictable experience. Quite the opposite of musicians and listeners who love the unpredictability of an abrupt chord change. And the music industry pushes out music that they know will be consumed by this mainstream audience. I like how he mentioned Charlie Puth! Charley and Jacob Collier had an interesting conversation about their hopes that mainstream artists will again soon be brave enough to put interesting chord progressions in their music. Additional I must add that it’s because of Spotify and other music services that such older artists are even being discovered. I remember trying to purchase OOP Eric Tagg albums and all I could find were very expensive 2nd hand Japanese records on eBay. Something I’d never have paid for, the 2nd hand market doesn’t help the original artists in any monetary way. I was so happy to find those gems on Spotify, which led to the discovery of many other “forgotten” oop albums. I still value and respect Jays opinion and agree with a lot of what he’s saying and always look forward listening to anything he’s worked on. Also I’d 100% love to see a documentary I hope it happens!
Yep...Do the documentary...Put Greg Phillinganes in it...Put Michael Omartian in it...Put Steve Lukather and David Paich in it...And of course, you have to have David Foster in it...Steve Porcaro can talk about his brothers Mike and Jeff...Then, there is Jerry Hey, Paulinho Da Costa, Bill Champlin, Bill Reichenbach, Neil Stubenhaus, Nathan East, Dean Parks, Paul Jackson Jr., Abraham Laboriel, Randy Goodrum, Michael Landau, Michael Sembello, Leland Sklar, Michael McDonald, Kenny Loggins, The Waters Family, Richard Page, and on and on...SOOOO many people influential in the smooth sounds of the 70's and 80's...I'd watch it, for sure!
Rose tinted specs. Not all good musicians made successful careers and a living from music in the 70’s. They were at the mercy of record companies. And not all pop music hits were that good. There were a lot of novelty rubbish just like Pop Idol stuff that came later. At least now more musicians have more control and a variety of media to promote their stuff directly without relying on an industry machine.
Pop music is thriving, it is just different now and boring, to me at least. But I also remember the eurodisco of the 90s which was extremely boring. You have to look for good music :)
I think one of the issues with rap is the over reliance on simplicity. Not that simple is inherently bad, But the influence it’s had on current music doesn’t emphasize the importance of advanced composition to keep the music interesting for longer than 3 months.
Dirty Loops is a wonderful modern group, crazy talented, sublimely musical, and worthy of carrying the baton of amazing and timeless musical craftsmanship. They are unique in themselves, yet incorporate legendary hints of Steely Dan, Airplay, Michael Jackson, Stevie Wonder, gospel, fusion, rock, and highly technical pop. Check them out!
i don't know if i can agree with your whole statement there man. Whilst i agree they are crazy talented, (maybe sublimely musical is too much). They are too crazy, not enjoyable enough like Steely dan was, or the whole airplay album, where every song was lovely, intriguing, and captured you in the sound. This is coming from a 17 year old musician who has grown up loving every genre and has only just within the past years discovered graydon and airplay. I love them. i wish someone would make music as good as them, it may even be me one day, but these guys aren't it. You were right with the michael jackson though, they're newest album sounds highly influenced by solely jackson, not steely or stevie, sorry to break it to you...
Agree with absolutely everything Jay says. I'll admit to liking early rap but noticed how it was rapidly transforming the airwaves. For some reason stations were obse$$ed with the "summer hit " Grunge felt to lazy or easy to me. Nickelback era was just commercial rock. Nowadays everything just sounds the same to me, soulless ans self-centered.
early rap was structured rhythmically like a jazz solo, party improvised and there was a story and samples were flipper and altered, 2023 is not rap at all
Offense to rap. Maximum offense. To record companies who became over-ruled by tech delivery systems. These people put greed over art. Current music fans are not informed, there is no critical standard for audio quality or song quality, and performance quality. I read hundreds of music videos, and can show the brain-drain in structure and language of music. Fans are unaware of what music is - as a language. So, the creative wheel will run flat for some time. But, look, as far as dumb goes - there must be people paying $192 for a Hoodie from Tom - that is beyond stupid. Those alive right now are so easily fooled.
I don't agree with his take. R&B had been repetitive and mind numbing since the 70's, especially in association with disco. It was popular enough at the time, but the advent of drum machines made it a lot more interesting than it had been with acoustic instruments alone. Good musicianship didn't go away, R&B based pop just surpassed it, and it remains on top to this day.
Yo guys Jay graydon us one the legends behind the curtains hum and David foster quincy Jones with out them we wouldn't have pop music slash chords and all that Today music is so crap
Lukather hates the term yacht rock yet he played on a ton of top 40 hits. Jay is right the compact disc and pro tools killed real musicianship. Music today is crap and has been since the internet became public. I am 60 .
The fall of musically quality is tied to the arm chair evolution of unlimited tracks, plugins, loss of the analogous component of recording and reproduction, fading home entertainment system consumer industry, ear buds, head phones iphones, and, the melineal s who've never heard audiophile legacy oriented sonic reproduction of analog recordings.. (and paid attention).
Hate to say it, but there was some patently terrible music that was made on analog. Most of it, in fact. I think it was John Loder, per Steve Albini, who said that the dime bin in most record stores is filled with immacualtely-played, perfectly-arranged records. Things really aren't any different now than they were then. Go look at the Top 40 from 50 years ago. 90% of it is garbage. There's a lot of survivor bias that goes on with old music. We hear the two-dozen good bands from back in the day on repeat, and just assume that was how everything was. Not so.
Pop didn’t decline, qualitiy wise. There always was bland, visionless music and great, visionary music. It's Yin-Yang. Many people judge from their very personal perspective, which is ok. But The Eagles are not "better" or of a "higher quality" than Billie Eilish or Beyonce.
Bingo. For every Sgt. Pepper, there were hundreds of schmaltzy vocal records that are probably unfindable now, and completely forgettable. We see and hear only the tip of the iceberg now.
I see what Jay means. But always blaming Pro Tools is too easy. When PT came out it was waaay too expensive for mediocre talent. And some great records were made using PT. It’s about people, not tools or instruments.
Don’t agree. Music has moved from an art to a social influencer business. One great talent in ? 30 years Amy W. Because she loved making art, not money. Art is a reflection of the times. Look around- not sure why one is surprised about the lack if good music. Couch surfing broke genius? Nah- let me be on tic tok. Ty - brilliant musician, just disagree on the premise.
My view is that music quality started declining around 1993 in the US. That is when the US string of liberal or RINO presidents began(Bush 43 is a RINO) which lasted 24 years from 1993 to 2016. That would indicate that US presidents are able to help impose cultural changes over time with their policies.
oh but you won't blame the record companies for destroying music because the record company is the sugar daddy of a musician because a musician can't hold an actual job 😂
I love Jay. But people don't care if the musician has practiced 10 hours a day on the guitar or 10 hours figuring out how to produce songs with Protools. Mediocre talent in his view only extends to technical skills on the instrument, but many people are geniuses at producing. And the advancement in technologies meant that young people are now able to make music and market it to the world from their bedrooms. Changing trends and consumer's taste in music, yes. But decline in music quality, no! Well, mainstream pop is definitely mediocre but Westcoast AOR wasn't top of the charts in Jay's heydays as well did it? For all you guitar players out there, we're seeing more virtuosos than ever on RU-vid under the age of 10. And many players under 25 are already revolutionising the way guitar is played as an instrument. Sorry that Clapton blues licks just don't cut it anymore, we still love it but something new and creative is on board and we should find and embrace it!
@@miyavizim I have watched Nito and yes he is a prodigy, plays complex changes with ease, love the dynamics, but I fail to see new techniques (Stanley Jordan), nor unique composition/chord progressions.
@@miyavizim Mancuso is amazing, that right hand! He was born in the wrong decade. He's has taken all his influences and mastered them. Nothing really new, I say this so often because I believe it's all been done before to a certain level. Some take it to another level, but are they boutique players or will it change how others play? To Jay's point "music" is not what it once was to the masses. I completely agree that rap ruined pop music. Appealing to the masses in a primal way, is not creative in my book and now the bar has to remain low for them to enjoy it. Much of pop music, in the day, had a lot of sophistication that was enjoyed by the masses whether they were aware of it or not. Something for almost everyone while keeping music elevated and growing.
