Jeff Berlin Dispels Two Groove Myths 

I really appreciate the brevity of Jeff's videos. You just get Jeff and what he has to say! No needless glossy intros, unrelated-to-the-subject instrument noodling, no 'clickbait' titles, no beating about the bush waiting for the actual meat of the content... Thank you!

Talking about groove reminds me of how great Jeff plays on Bruford album One of a Kind. Everyone needs to listen to that if they haven't. Amazing fusion with Jeff & Bill Bruford (of Yes)

Jeff I just had to say that you are a badass bass player. (They used to always say on your albums "Apparently Jeff Berlin still uses Badass bass bridges"). You know I learned your solo to Water On The Brain (Part 2) from Allan Holdsworth's Road Games album when I was 17. And I'm a guitar player! That's how badass you are Jeff. Thanks for the inspiration and also the great teaching chops. You have to be able to do to teach and you are awesome Jeff! 😎

Absolutely fantastic lesson. Not only showing what to play but giving us some wisdom/strategy behind it - super helpful!

Thank you so much for adding subtitles to your video. It’s a great help for this deaf bassist here. Great job!

Thanks Jeff. Your truly a Great music Instructor. You definitely have the passion to teach people ( musicians ) the best way you know. With all the experience you have. It’s fantastic that you’re passing down your musical wisdom…. Thank you.

Thats what i like about Jeff. He shows you practical examples to show his point

I've always knew this in the back of my mind to be true. Thank you Mr. Berlin to reinforced the concept.

i have respected Jeffs playing since the 1970s. I now feel rather prevaliged so have such direct access to what he has to say. It is always worth spending the time and considering what he says.

His analogy to word types is so simple but so accurate.

Thank you for the videos. Hope they will keep coming. I now have the idea to where should be focused to be a good bassist

Excellent point made here and explained in a way anyone can understand. Some may disagree, but in the context which you suggest, it makes perfect sense to me. Thanks for so generously sharing your knowledge, Jeff.

Makes perfect sense!! Never thought about that. Spot on, Jeff!!

Thank you Jeff for the very intellectual and sophisticated approach towards these two notions, presenting a clear, concise and convincing argument.

Always a pleasure to hear a clearly articulated, carefully laid-out bass exercise that is precisely laid-out.

This is a wonderful lesson Jeff! I know some might disagree but they are many who agrees. Carry on with your teaching.

Jeff you came out with a floppy record in the 80s from guitar magazine and THAT RECORDING IS THE RECORDING, THAT I WISH U COULD DEMONSTRATE ONE DAY AGAIN thanks

I like how u on each lesson put emphasis on learning the notes on bass and how the rest comes after. Of course it's true. The thingy is that when u first pick up the bass u see it as a toy and u just wanna have fun with it. Nobody cares at first on learning music, but playing 'with' the bass. And yes some ppl, in time, as they are learning how to play the bass they don't focus anymore on notes and music education because as long as there are tabs available its much easier to play and learn songs (not talking about jazz here =) ). I know I did that and after 8 years of playing bass I started to feel that gap and lack of knowledge because i couldn't advance further and i started to take music lessons. Anyway... keep up the good work Jeff! U inspired me and u continue to inspire...thank you!

This is pretty spot on from my personal perspective, and in my experiences growing up. I learned harmony, forms, the parts that were needed from the bass to complete the picture, etc. Learned how to hear intervals, used that to transcribe, and ultimately I learned how to play responsively ( in terms of time, and playing to what others were doing) by playing in interactive situations. I sorta feel like that's how everyone learns, but I noticed there seem to be fewer opportunities than there were in the 80's-90's for young startups to really cut their teeth on a gig.

Makes a lot of sense... Thank you Jeff!!!

always worth listening to your perspectives. we'd be foolish not to.

It is useful to note that playing wrong notes corresponds directly with making a goofier face. @3:30 will provide an accurate representation! Excellent lesson!

Well said Jeff! Love that you show 'balance' of several behaviors to achieve a groove. Dee whole is equal to dee sum of dee parts

Thanks Jeff. I think I know why many systems focus on groove first. 1. Grooving is fun and it's easy. You can instantly make 'music' and feel that you have achieved something. 2. Learning the notes is (allegedly) hard and academic (i.e. not fun). You want a bunch of students to come to your courses - make it fun, with quick results. Tell them they have to 'go back to school' and learn all the notes on the neck? Sounds like school days to me.

Nr. 2 applies mainly to improvising musicians who won't always know exactly what notes are coming next during their solo. In that situation, as far as I'm concerned, it makes sense to give groove priority over note choice.

Jeff, I recently learned the melody for A Night In Tunisia, But I learned the rhythm with a single note so I could play it in time before I plugged the notes in. Dave LaRue told me also to learn the melody before I start to solo over it because this helps you understand the changes a lot better.. Love these videos by the way.

Jeff, I have a new found respect for you.

Love ya man! Been a fan since I heard you on the Bruford stuff. Keep on keepin' on Jeff!

Jeff, thanks much for sharing your logical and challenging insights !

If you want groovy music for dance or just because you like to listen to it, then groove is the most important thing. A satisfactory groove can be made by just playing a drum kit or bass percussively with no pitch variation at all. I would say all else is secondary to groove.

What an amazing class, Jeff! You just debunked a myth that was well stuck in my head, but your argumentation was solid enough to make me reconsider. And, in fact, when we talk to each other, the words we use are the most important part of the communication, not the rhythm in which we say them. Of course, if you talk too slow or too fast it would be bad, and, of course, rhythm is actually important in music, but not more important than the harmony or the melody. Warm regards from Brazil! :-)

Such a great teacher and I love the Passion for teaching and for wanting people to learn to play/perform the right way. If my goal is to inspire and move people with my instrument, I'd better learn how to use it to it's full potential. Just like a writer, the words chosen, the cadence, inferences, etc., are done with skill and it's done deliberately so that the reader may be moved.

Now I think I get what you mean. I got the distinction between learning and performing. Yeah!

So I played schools days in Bflat for a minute. What happened was, I was able to get most of the notes right. But I made a mistake, I played a wrong note, and that caused me to loose the groove of the song as I reacted. What that told me was exactly what Jeff is trying to say in this video. That groove can’t come before any aspect of performance on bass or any instrument, because mistakes in any aspect of performance can affect groove and vice versa. Just like when you learn anything, there is a structure to what’s useful and when/why it is, music is no different. Saying groove is the most important thing on bass paying is a useful mindset only because of misinformation. It is more important to lay down the sonic floor of the band when playing bass than playing noodly solo bits. But when you do this, you’ve already learned the notes of the song you’re playing, that’s how your able to focus on rhythmic aspects of playing bass. You can’t focus on the impact of a paragraph in a novel if you don’t know what a paragraph is, music shouldn’t be approached any differently. I think too many people get put off by what Jeff is saying because he doesn’t say the same stuff a lot of our heroes are saying. The thing is, that a lot of what they try to teach is the overall mindset of playing music, not the process of understanding music and applying that knowledge to performance and practice. I’m not saying that these people mean to do any harm, it’s just that they already worked their way through a lot of the concepts Jeff is trying to explain in his teachings. They often just aren’t aware of these things because of the overall complexity of music theory. Thing is, it doesn’t have to be that hard! If we just learned it like we learn everything, that’s what Jeff is trying to do, not try to be pretentious and famous. Thanks Jeff, your contributions to music education have meant a lot to me and I’m a teacher myself.

Jeff, please keep on debunking schoolyard myths.

I think you stated some good points there.Thanks for that.

Amazing videos. Thanks a lot from Spain.

Absorbing and thought provoking video with a hilarious finish! :)

Excellent Jeff thanks for posting

I think this thinking comes from one of Victor Wooten's teachings. But I think he was more talking about if you make a mistake, and not as a overall concept for playing. Some people may have just taken it too literally. Both are completely important. I always find your thoughts on music and musicality really interesting. Keep up the cool videos Jeff. Cheers

Keep em comin Jeff!

Great point and lesson! Keep them coming.

Brilliant thank you!

Nice lesson Jeff thanks for posting

Thank you Jeff for these vids you knowledge is so valuable

Best bass teacher on YT. Berlin, Vai, Satriani, Petrucci, etc. What did they put in the water on Long Island?

This is pretty much the Zappa "eyebrows" concept. Learn the music to an almost overkill level, then and only then are you able to start adding the attitude or "putting the eyebrows on it". The yellow shark with ensemble modern is a great example. Incredibly well rehearsed....and full of confidence, attitude and groove.

Interesting thought piece even though I will still always focus on groove first. Focusing on notes during practice makes focusing on the groove easier during performance, and so does playing with a metronome or tapping very regularly with your foot. Focusing on groove as #1 can have awesome results; if groove defined as hearing all the rythmic subdivisions going on in the music, and locking in with something very interesting that goes really well with the way people are dancing... It's the most rewarding thing! To me that is why people say focus on the groove first. However, I learned more from this lesson just to hear it in a way that sounded opposite/ different.

I would love to see him and victor talk about this.

One thing I've regarded when regarding Jeff's videos is his high regard for the word "regard". Regard for yourself.

I love this guy !!!

Fantastic!!

best teacher in the world

Thank you Jeff!

couldnt agree more. learn the notes first, play it on loop, internalize the notes, put it on muscle memory, than the groove will follow automatically

Very Logical. I Like It!

A rapper can’t rap or freestyle if they don’t know the lyrics or words that rhyme. This is Jeff’s point

Myth buster of music

Brilliant !

This guy is of the highest caliber there is. Immaculate player.

Makes complete sense to me Jeff.

thank you Jeff

Thanks Jeff!

wonderful jeff fancy a run in the park its my new philosophy

Great stuff!

Well stated. Too many times bandmates will want to feel/hear the groove sacrificing the notes.

Your view is so different to Victor's which is itself very interesting

If there is any such hierarchy, I hope TIMING or TIME would be before anything. You can know the notes all day, but if you cannot feel the time or know it, would be like running on ice 😂🤣

Jeff, while I agree with most of your insights and your approach to teaching and playing, I'm curious: Why "Lumpy Jazz?"

To extend the language analogy, let's say notes are words. A passage is a sentence. In spoken language, the order of words can be compared to a line of notes. What is paramount in both is "order". Mix up words & nonsense is spoken. Mix up notes & the musical language breaks down. To follow the logic, knowing the notes in correct order comes first. Even before time. Then comes time. That is mechanical time & mechanical time does NOT groove. Groove comes last, I agree, in the sequence of learning. Good video.

Great lesson, Jeff, thanks. I've been a fan since Gradually Going Tornado, and the crux of your teaching here applies to any melodic instrument, I reckon: you have to know the notes.

Jeff, could you talk about playing with Bill Bruford's drums?

Wise thoughts, common sense should always apply

The best thing is the derf-wad face he makes when he's playing the wrong notes on purpose.around 3:38.

He's right.

It really depends. The right notes/ wrong groove sounded better. People dance on the groove. The right groove/ wrong notes was better to dance to. Of course, doing both right is ideal

👏🏿👏🏿👏🏿

Mind-blowing common sense!!!

i think it's not that simple - this is the way i interpret "groove is more important than note": a root-note in time is better than any fancy chord-tone out-of-time So as a beginner, as long as you can only play the root in time - stick with it!

Thank you so much. This is valuable and I wish I had known before. You are so generous with your knowledge.

Genius

I'm going to have to disagree. U can play the correct notes with the wrong feel and it'll feel wrong. And in a live jam session sitting in situation, if they're playing a song you don't know its wise to fish for that note/key while grooving. instead of randomly trying to find it. I understand the point trying to be made, and it makes sense. but groove/feel is what makes the music. u can play "happy birthday" with the wrong notes but the correct feel/phrasing and it'll still be recognizable. Lastly, on top of that, anybody can know/learn the "right" notes to play, not everyone can Lock in to a groove.

"Walk before you groove, mofos."--Jeff's unofficial TA.

I think that the two issues, knowing your notes "and" groove are not mutually exclusive.

But it’s groove that makes.it fees good, the payoff for the hours work put in first

My band teacher once said you have to always do 2 things, be in tune and be on time. If you mess up either, you sound like doo doo. Besides, if you hit a bad note, bend it up !

Funny how two very awesome Bass players have two totally different opinions. Whatever works for the individual I guess

Correct.

Fantastic Bassist? Yes! Great singing voice? Well....

weloveYOU

as a guitar player I prefer a grooving simple bass line over a non-grooving complicated line any day. A linear, boring bass line can hardly spark a creative moment in an actual band situation. Yes, groove and notes are of equal importance "in theory". When it comes to the feeling though, it is a different story. Jeff sometimes over elaborates these things.

NO COMMENTS

To me, it's not logic at all. In the first half of the video, he says groove is last in hierachy of musical aspects. 3 Minutes later he states, that all aspects are equal. Then he says a verb is not more or less important than an adverb and that there is no hierachy of words in grammar/language. That's not true. An adverb is a word to further describe a verb. You can construct a basic sentence ( subject, verb, object) without an adverb. But you cannot make a sentence using an adverb without a verb.......

1:40 "We usually keep going" - yes, this is exactly what ppl mean by saying groove is more important. If you haven't done your homework and find yourself searching for the right notes, keep the groove, because it's more important to the ensemble as a whole. You just demonstrated that. And your language metaphor is false, because language is not constructed out of building blocks of equally important information. For instance: "Jff Brln pls bss" is more understandable than "E Ei ay a". The same principles apply to grammar and syntax. And at 3:37 you ask us to compare two performances: one where you get the groove AND the notes wrong, and one where you play both groove and notes correctly. This makes no sense and trying to make a point this way is stupid. To me it seems you've taken some statements out of context and intentionally misinterpreted them just to have something original to say. 1 out of 10, would not watch again. PS I did enjoy your work with Bruford.

He’s created a straw man. No one claims that groove comes literally before learning the music. He admits “For the most part bass players already know their music; they know what they are supposed to play.” He doesn’t even bother to define what it is that is last on his list of importance: groove.

c'mon guys, what credible musician doesn't know that by common sense if anything? this is a waste of 7 minutes, overelaborating on a simple and self-evident point. It's like someone giving you a two hour lecture on how to boil an egg!

Bullshit!

Here's what my (small) experience tells me... When I know what notes to play, I can (somewhat) make them groove; when I don't, I can't... In other words, it's a lot harder (for me, anyway) to make the "wrong" notes groove...