Jennifer Kay on Cycling Creepers & Choosing Specialized over Pinarello 

" Feeling somewhat affronted to hear this lady’s opinion shoved into the mouths of all women when many of us may not feel the same way." You're either projecting or misunderstanding.

I interpreted Jennifer as speaking to her own experience. Seemed very valid.

Same here. I'm a female rider and racer in Australia and don't share her point of view at all. In life most situations can be sorted with a chat. To assume someone wants to look at your ass vs someone thinking you're a good wheel...

I honestly thought as a brand ambassador it was partially your job to chat and ride with all sorts of people, some will be great others not so.

BTW Bike fitter guy from cade media channel hate them too :D but at least he explained why... Just lot of marketing shit and lick of purple and pink paint and not much "women" specific features like actual smaller frames, or different geometries or smaller handlebars and cranks as default

Even if Liv is just a marketing tool, that tool may get 100,000 women into cycling.....isn't that a good thing. She came off as very pretentious. I didn't hear her speak of how she is trying to get more young women into cycling.

Please show me the purple and pink bikes they make?@@mipko If they have too aggressive of a bike fit for most people, that is one thing. But they aren't a pink it and shrink it company. They have done more to make women feel welcomed in the sport (which I am happy to go into here), than these people could ever dream of.

Exactly my point.@@fraserherman8754 This women specifically says she has her own little "group" she always rides with. I'm curious what she does to get more women into the sport besides posting on IG and hating on a company who has done 100x more for women's cycling than she she could ever even dream of.

The irony is the topic is representation for women. Here is a bike company that goes all in on women- creating an entire brand head-to-toe, equipment, sponsoring a pro team and then she falls in with Specialized marketing. Specialized is the company that bought Machines for Freedom, a succesful womens brand started by a woman, for women- and summarily killed it within a couple years. Jesse pushed back a little with the Retul b.s. but yeah, the hate on Liv is completely disappointing.

She’s got that crazy woman vibe. Not liking it

@@ralphmartinez8616 Are you surprised? I would felt way to creeped out if I catched someone sniffing my saddle, sure I would offer him/her opportunity to sniff directly from the source, but still, it would creep the fuck out of me :D

@@mipko I didnt get that far. She put me off from the get go. There are creepy men sure, but I don’t have to hear about it on my leisure time

@@ralphmartinez8616 that's how I felt about her. I know some men are creeps, but she needs to chill out. Just las week a pediatric surgeon(male) pulled beside me and we talked for a good 30 minutes and then he went on his way. I think because she is a good looking girl she assumes everyone is after her. Sometimes I see a female rider and I genuinely want to talk to her with no motive behind, but I say to myself, not worth it, keep your mouth shut and ride past.

@@indusrtial exactly. not worth the hassle. These women are weirdos. Yeah some guys shoot their shot and if it doesn’t work then fine. Guys want to date women. Wtf does she not get? Say no and move on. Couldn’t stand this woman

In Jesse’s case there’s definitely a hint of ‘feign ignorance and say something sassy to generate comments’. In addition to being genuine about most stuff.

Jesse absolutely came across as 'tone deaf' on this issue. Do they absolutely have a responsibility...no, could then be more open to recognizing the issue and potentially choosing to take responsibility in whatever way they can....yes. To me, the point that Jennifer was making of it being a 'human problem' was trying to make the point that this is bigger than just a show, a bike or any one specific vendor, it is about being a better society.

@@ShawnIsBatman agree - I think the summary is they have the opportunity to be part of the solution rather than part of the pre-existing boys club problem.

As someone who has cycled on Sydney roads for 30 years, the problem the sport has is recognition for the right of using the road. How many times I’ve had near misses and people shouting “get off the road” I can’t say. This is the real human issue.

Those in a position of privilege should make any effort they can to assist those in a less privileged position. Jennifer made many valuable points about this. Chris had the lightbulb moment when he realised more women in the sport + more women on YT would benefit his channel as well.

Great summary

Completely unpalatable

😝 100% facts

It’s really not so faint lol

As an underrepresented gender in cycling, she's literally having to fight for a spot on the racing grid. I think that she's allowed the space to speak with some candor.

It's really not that hard to not be creepy. Just don't draft closely when you're not taking turns and don't continue talking to women who give you one-syllable-answers when you say something. Don't be paranoid, just have some common sense and respect

I rode past a girl and said 'morning'. She gave me a weird look. It made me feel like I did something wrong. It's just ridiculous.

I don’t know if she is overly sensitive in general, or if guys in general are just a pain for females. I typically acknowledge another cyclist unless there are too many, and that’s it. If you say “hello” or something, I assume it will be returned, then that is that. On the bike, I’m there to sweat, not socialize. If she has a problem with that she may be a bit paranoid.

@@DanTuber I give a low wave to pretty much everyone on the side of the road, "real" cyclists, old farts on ebikes, runners, etc. "Serious" women cyclists tend to be the demographic that is most likely to mean mug and not wave back ime... >wave or say hello : you're a creep >don't wave don't say anything: you're a creep 🤣

usually when i ride and come up on a woman rider i will go by and say hello however that is it ,as a rule i am going faster as i ride alone 99% of the time,

Well good for you. Many people cycle to be alone with themselves and you should always ask if you're going to draft behind someone. Imagine going out hiking or running and having someone walking in your footsteps the whole time. Fuck that

​@@philipk4475 the hiking and running analog completely fails. They are not the same at all. I'm 188 cm tall, so people love jumping on my wheel. I don't mind most of the time. I will occasions just drop them of they are there too long or I'm in a mood.

Drafting for a few minutes or up a climb why not but more than that it’s annoying unless you ASK. If someone asked me politely I’d say yes sure. Also she is a woman, so that changes everything. Being drafted 20 minutes by a stranger dude must be super uncomfortable

It depends, I’d say. Here in Northern Germany, people do it for a minute or so and then overtake. Sometimes, on my after work rides, I get drafted by commuters on the way out of town, and that’s kinda fun. When there is a guy on a Brompton right behind you going 33 km/h.

Yeah I think Aussies can be a bit precious

Wasn't what Ineos used before going disk? Or were they still 11 speed?

@@tsumb1still using 11 speed

They probably don’t watch GCN product launch videos 😅

100% If the guys in the comments are out on bunch rides, it's no surprise people feel uncomfortable.

Agreed. Basic common sense. The guy she spoke about was obviously a creeper. Same with saddle sniffer. That's some whacked crap right there. But MOST guys arent. Most male cyclists are likely to just be competitive before being a creeper.

@@out_spocken Agree!

Some dudes just can't see it from the perspective of a woman, they just lack the empathy.

Same, Z2 solo rides & on a popular circuit sometimes I just stop and find a new podcast for a few to get separation. Definitely nothing like when I started all this in the late 1980’s! Everyone was just part of the club back then.

You can't blame them though. It's simply self preservation

@@cornishalps9870 from what, a friendly wave? most such chicks are friggin' ugly af but think they're worth something.

Girls get preferential treatment at gravel races in MI all the time. Free entry, or just entry when the race is already booked etc. Organizers have events just for women even and hardly no one shows up. Women are the biggest barrier to themselves.

I agree, but this podcast is not a woke agenda pushing podcast.. just chat shit.. she basically called them out on doing something bad, when they ARENT.. she can start a WOKECAST herself and talk about these subjects.. i come here to leave the woke bullshit behind. its annoying........

@@BikesKomsCRO Have a big cry mate. Far out the triggered crybaby men in here are embarrassing themselves.

Dave.. pedal harder and think less. Wokeism wont get your speed up.@@discbrakefan

@@BikesKomsCRO you've lost the plot, bro. She simply asked them a direct question - "why haven't you had other female guests?" they're big boys who defended themselves, and a respectful, insightful conversation ensued. There was nothing woke about it.

Yeah bring people who deserve to be there, not just because of their identity.

Seriously? What rim brake clears 32s? I'm on a TCR with Reds and 28 is the max. 😢

@@Omnis2 Schwalbe One 28c measure 31.5 (20.7mm ID rim Roval CLX50). Brakes are Cane Creek eeBrakes. I'm sure Ultegra & Dura Ace would clear it too. My frame has plenty of room, the brake is the limiting factor.

@@Omnis2 my ultegra R8000 and dura ace R9100 brakes will clear a measured 30mm comfortably. i reckon i can get a 32 in there, but i've never personally tried, since it starts to balloon and don't line up with rim width properly. but you're sort of at the point where you gotta deflate the tire to get it past the brake pads during wheel changes. which is why i'm sure they've stated the recommended width to be 28mm.

@@cdeluise thanks for the responses, guys. Had no idea. I have to remove the wheel to load it into the car before and after every ride, and any wider than my 28mm gp5ks and I’d have problems. Would eventually like to build a rim brake endurance frame, so good to know these things.

@@chickenpoodle I actually plan to buy 9100 Direct Mount brakes because they're so stiff & consistent. It's a small weight penalty coming from eeBrakes. I own R9000 standard mount brakes that must have over 60K miles on them. Absolutely bulletproof brakes.

I turned it off before I got halfway... Awful episode... Woman want equality, until it doesn't suit them!

No

The problem with the US is the finance and marketing habitually and cluelessly sell women’s sports short. If you look at what’s happening on the West Coast with women’s professional soccer, they’re basically telling the professional sports establishment to go fap in the corner or the next room because they’re basically holding back women’s professional sports. WNBA players can make more money in the off-season in Europe or Asia, than they earn for two or three full WNBA seasons. The issue isn’t the market, it’s the owners and executives taking advantage.

The braking forces are much different, and different points of the frame and fork have to be reinforced in different ways. I’m not a fan of how most disk brake road bikes ride, and many people look at me crazy when I mention this.

consequences in what respect though? are you creeped on and followed? not asking in an antagonistic way. important distinction here is that it sounds like she's often followed/approached without consent and harassed so her sensitivity to it is very understandable. is everyone that hangs on her wheel a creep? absolutely not. but people have different tolerance levels and it sounds like she's had too many issues to be bothered anymore

@@amf1990 Jesse also made the comment that made it seem he doesn't like people on his wheel either for too long. I prefer people to say hi and introduce themselves because I like meeting people but if they're just there silently it doesn't make a difference to me.

100% but it does seem to be more common with MAAP riders, they never say Hi or acknowledge other riders. Their shit don't stink.

If I’m out on a training ride, or out on an evening after work for some solo time. I’ve got no interest in talking to or interacting with anyone. This is perfectly reasonable. Expecting other people to respond to you as you’d like is unreasonable….

That must be misogynist fun

a woke loser at that that thinks she's all that.

It may be because 105 Di2 came out disc only.

But it’s 11 speed tech with a. tweak to support 12 speed, not equivalent to the wireless DI2 disc.

Further in support, I know a number of greater than 50 year olds that do nothing but train all week, every week and race in D and C,s. Jesse, wait until yr over 50....

perceived exertion is ridiculous. Everyone tries hard but if your not that good you cant be standing there with ya hands out for a payday. sorry

Otherwise everyone would be a pro because they do the same effort as them? Why do only them get good paid contracts ? Because of talent.. with Jeff in this.. same applies to rest in life... If you are not talented at your job you can say bye bye

The cope for being slow is amazing 🤣

Ridiculous logic

One needs to ask why some women's sports falter - cycling and basketball, for example - and others are quite successful, like soccer, tennis, and gymnastics. I agree that monetary draw is the motivation for sponsorship, but what is it about the sports mentioned above that have such a disparity of draw for fans? If enough women are drawn to a particular sport, the law of averages would have that a few outstanding stars would arise, resulting in a large fan base. That has worked for soccer, tennis, and gymnastics. There have sporadically been noteworthy women star athletes in pro-cycling who have drawn a significant fan base, but that's been rare.

@@curtvaughan2836 Women's tennis is popular due to the nature of the sport. It centers on single athletes (or at most, doubles teams). That makes it easier for star power to build. Also the courts are built small, so its not a sport dependent upon filling an arena. I think its also an easier sport for non-athletes to get into since you can easily just grab a friend to play a game. There's also low barriers on equipment since most city parks have a court. Women's soccer has become popular because of politics. And it helps that the games seem to be more evenly matched than men's, which can make them more interesting on TV. The question to actually ask is why aren't women supporting women athletes? Why is the only answer to disparity on athletic support that any one can seem to muster is, "men should support them." No, I'm not interested. Don't need a reason not to be. Where are the women spectators? Go complain to them.

@@cjohnson3836 " "men should support them." No, I'm not interested. " This!! Also..if there are barriers...start your own. Plenty of examples of groups starting their own 'enter sport or event' because they haven't liked how others have been run or there hasn't been one. It's like females think they don't have to spend generations building up a culture and sport specific to their gender because men have done all the hard work in building up their own. Sorry...it don't work like that. I don't give one rats about netball. Netball haven't tried to develop a mens league. why? because there's no interest and no athletes. So the onus would be on men putting the hard yards in to create a league that couldl generate money and attention. The benefit being...it won't take half as much time for female sports to do this now compared to countless mens sports that up until recently never got paid. But the reward is the generational sacrafices that were made and legacies created that you can't just expect to exist straight away for female sports and for audiences to buy into for female athletes and sports.

Club races have prize money but that’s a long way from professional. We are talking small amounts - $20-$100. But that’s still an incentive to ride over to the track on the weekend and pin a number on.

@@curtvaughan2836 Because most women don't care. I don't know what your definition of successful is, gymnastics? There are professional women's gymnastics? Women's tennis- does it stand on its own, or is it subsidized by men's tennis. The prize money in tennis is the same between the sexes, and the women play best of 3. Whay don't they play best of 5 like the males? I love how the patriarchy is blamed. Men, in most cases, are not really interested in womens' athletics. If the layd athletes are depending on male dollars, they will be hurting. Women's sports must have an appeal to women.

I trade pulls with the people who know what's up. In the last few weeks I've met two very strong riders who traded pulls and worked together for a long stretch of windy open road. Had a chat, moved on. The spirit of road riding. Wound up in a group ride yesterday the same way.

@@charliedillon1400 That’s fine if they want to, but if I’m out doing an endurance ride or whatever I don’t really want to trade pulls.

Whenever cyclists see my Clydesdale bulk, their eyes widen, and their legs suddenly find new energy to get into my draft. I have politely asked riders to not draft when I am obviously in a tuck and working on my TT skills and/or testing my fitness. I don't want them foiling my numbers. Usually, they desist. Yet, a couple of years ago, one older dude on a nice bike who I had just flew past, jumped to catch my wheel on the local TT route, when I was measuring myself in the early season. I asked him three times not to draft: twice politely. He became angry and decided to insult me. Eventually, at the turn around, he finally realized what I was doing when I had to speed up to drop him before the turn around so as not to cause us to collide. You would think his age would have brought wisdom and softened his ego.

Even if she says hello first? I'm not sure being told "hello" is what creeps women out - at least, that's not what i gathered from the discussion. It's the "hello" followed by several seconds of gazing...

It's really pointless to say hi. You are just going to drop them or they will suck your wheel.

@@ghpatriotit’s etiquette to say / wave / nod « hi » to a rider going the other way. Even if it’s a woman you can, since you’re going opposite direction so there’s no risk of creepy drafting hahaha

I think it’s impolite. Just sitting there …

Maybe if they ask if its okay to wheel suck first? And if the answer is no then they can drop off of head up the road. If the answer is okay then they can pull a turn.

Is it impolite for a car to drive behind another car? @@hankschrader2353

Wouldn't bother me at all. I'm more bothered if someone expects me to draft, would rather not have the wind broken when out training. Fine to sit in my draft. Wouldn't bother me

@@burnsideisbackI think you’re missing the point. The male drafting the female can make the female uncomfortable and ought to be sensitive to that. So communicate and respect their response OR don’t do it

Couldn't agree more. looked at her Instagram and her top pinned reel is her riding through the north connex tunnel. As a triathlete part of the road cycling community, it pains me to see idiots like this ride on multi carriage ways in the middle of the day. Complete b*tch if you ask me.

Who said anything about status? She just didn’t want creeps around. I’ve seen and heard creepy behaviour on bunch rides here (and called it out).

This made me laugh. You ask who said anything about status? She did. I don't know how you could not pick up on this. She mentioned status numerous separate times throughout this single podcast. She mentioned the status of riding an expensive Pinarello and the A grade men being regarded as Z grade celebrities around the Sydney cycling scene. At 19:12 she literally said the lack of status she was receiving was one of the reasons she did not even want to continue to participate in racing. Is that a clear enough indication for you that status is a major concern for her? @@discbrakefan

@@aedsy You’re conflating two completely separate things she was talking about and totally misunderstanding what she meant about the status of winning men’s A grade vs C grade (even though that is equivalent for a woman). Maybe you need to listen without the deep prejudice blocking your ears.

Or maybe you need to improve your reading comprehension and/or critical thinking skills. I was establishing that status is clearly a major concern for her and listed a number of examples illustrating this. If you needed me to spell out how it specifically related to her story regarding someone trying to talk to her, it is clearly implied at 0:55 when she describes someone who knew me (as the well known, high status cycling influencer) who I did not know (some low status, nobody). When the person on the same ride, participating in the same sport tried to talk to her she "wasn't having it". Would it be a reasonable assumption that she never talks to any other cyclist ever? No. It is highly likely that perceived status played a large part in her behaviour, given we have established that status is so highly important for her to the point that it dictates what bike she rides, what clothes she wears and even what rides/events she does. @@discbrakefan

Guess you were watching a different conversation. Or you just feel like playing the victim.

@@discbrakefan oh, hello, Dave. See you’ve have busy tonight !! Just my opinion, but yet again, opinions are one sided. An old driving instructor of mine years ago said the first thing you should do is engage brain, and pick your mindset. Way too much aggression going on in this women’s head - almost going out looking for trouble - and honestly, it’s not the right way - she’s have a much happier life without the knee jerk ‘thinking the worst in everyone’ - that’s her weakness - at first I thought - wow - strong lady, but the more I watched I could see deep down she’s hiding behind her aggression. Just my opinion, ‘Dave’

@@JIMMYHIBBS1 You’re just basically telling her to smile more. You probably also tell people not to be offended. Take that advice.

​@@discbrakefanNo, he's suggesting she not be such a terrible person.

@@bikerjk1205 I’m not going to bother arguing with incels.

Surely you know all kit chat is tongue in cheek and not a rule

Grievance and identity politics are neither informed nor fresh viewpoints.

@@bikerjk1205 You seem to be the one with the grievance mate. Man-up and listen to the points. Sook.

​@@discbrakefanShe didn't make any logical or factual points. Idiot.

@@bikerjk1205Your brain just exploded when you realised you were a creep in the first 5 minutes didn’t it

Pretty much all non mountainous Koms and Qoms longer than a few hu Dre metres come from drafting or riding with a group. Women included.

@@TheWoogeroo Yes a man can elect not to go for a KOM if you don't have a train, or a storm of a tailwind, but do you think it is unfair for women to also need a group of men to compete for a QOM? Of course, you can also draft behind eBikes/vehicles ridden/driven by women and men which is part of the context of attaching any importance to KOMs / QOMs to begin with.

@@thisandthatandotherthings I spent 6 years as a dedicated Strava QOM pacer/super domestique for a very strong female cyclist. Almost every ride we targeted 1-3 segments to QOM or get in the top 10. These varied from flat/rolling to shallow and moderate climbs. Or longer segments and loops. She had close to a 1000 at one point (this was in the relatively early years of Strava). All her QOM rivals, except for one who always rode alone, were all drafting male cycling partners/friends or on medium to large (mostly or entirely male driven) bunch rides. I only listened to her opening monologue and found it offensive and off putting. And unnecessarily hostile and mostly false. Most group rides are predominately middle-aged males (MAMILs) and in my experience they are incredibly welcoming to women cyclists. Excited if one or some join the ride. Generally trip over themselves to be friendly, welcoming and inclusive (all as it should be since female road cyclists are so underrepresented, sadly) and helpful if asked. Sure, there is the occasional lech or creep or someone who is misogynist or unwelcoming. Over the years, I can only think of a handful of guys like this. I also sometimes rode with a very strong older woman who also had a boat load of QOMs who always joined various male group rides (she literally NEVER rode alone by choice). She was usually the only woman in her group rides too. When another woman occasionally joined, she was not welcoming and sometimes even hostile to the other woman as she felt "territorial" or seemed to like being the only woman or monopolizing that space. Anyway, this interview, looking to drive division between the sexes, does not reflect the experiences or perspectives of most women getting into road cycling. They are welcomed and seem to enjoy being motorpaced to PRs by and large. That's my mansplaining from my own extensive, personal experience in this domain at least.

Strava xOMs are for fools and losers. If you have that addiction, you are riding for the wrong reasons.

@@ReVoltaire "Most group rides are predominately middle-aged males (MAMILs) and in my experience they are incredibly welcoming to women cyclists. Excited if one or some join the ride. " agreed! I think men are mostly competitive against each other. I've always enjoyed when a partner or a friends partner took up cycling. Sadly females just don't seem as into it as guys by and large. Perhaps it'll take more generations for this to happen...but sports cycling...as opposed to scandinavian countries where all sexes equally ride...is very much still more attractive to men for some reason. And I don't think that's a bad thing. Just as most men dont give a rats about netball or care to play it. Some sports just attract different sexes differently

I know they are/were all on the bike due to their teams but: Alex Dowsett (until recently) Chris Froome Daryl Impey

So true

I hope that they will read these comments and apologize in the next episode for this terrible guest, jk no need to apologize we get this content for free but the guest was terrible.

Yeah definitely a bit of this, they’ll call you an asshole for pointing this out tho

Prize money being a motivation to turn up is a bit of a joke. It’s bike race the chances of winning are slim. I would rather low entry fees to get more people to turn up. Looking at this from the amateur lens.

You seem confused.

No, I think you missed the point.

@@discbrakefan i heard her clarify afterwards but where does there reaponsibility end and hers start, if she wants podcast and shows to have more representation then i would hope she has plenty of failed media projects where she tried to do that, if she doesnt she shouldnt be telling other how to run their channels

@@dominicbritt i am, perticularly by the entitlement

@@Frandaman84 I mean your attitude is really part of ingraining the problem. People can do all the work they want and never get noticed if 90% of cyclists are men and watch men and only listen to men opinions and never consider women might be interesting or have a different perspective or value. Part of Chris & Jesse becoming successful is really that men are over-represented in cycling and now that they have a platform should they not consider what views and opinions they are platforming that may continue or deepen this problem? It’s quite a good point and she wasn’t telling them what to do, just provoking thought.

At the very least just ask them!!!

@@discbrakefan yeah politely ask if you could ride with them first and if they say yes then you'll be explicitly riding with them.

But her comment about what she cares about and acknowledging it and being authentic is also really good. She has this platform by being on your, good for her in bringing it up.

Underlying snobbery to his Irish heritage

​@@glennoc8585let's call it racism as thats what it was

Very awkward show 😳

But not paying equal prize money in the first place isn’t exactly an incentive is it?

@DaveTheBikeRider as any successful race organizer knows, you dont put out massive prize pools to "incentivise" participation. You gauge interest and get your baseline attendance squared away and incentivise accordingly, ideally with a small % increase YOY if interest and attendance holds. You would go bankrupt and your events would be shut down with your idealisms and emotions running the show rather than your brain.

@@roadcyclist1 These are club races so there are no “massive prize pools”.

It’s great that you guys do that! I’ve been asked by a few women about crits with separate grades so I’ll point them your way.

Bar for being a genius pretty low these days Down Under

Exactly. Way more interesting 😂

Put BuzzAlong on the list.

@mancampovestiminvatam1281 yes I just stumbled across her via Juliette's channel! Epic stuff.