Jocko Podcast 315 w/ Echo Charles: Draft Dodgers. And Low IQ Men as Cannon Fodder. McNamara's Folly 

I joined the Army in 1968. I was a high school drop out. Alcoholism was rampant. I was impressed by one thing. While going thru Airborne school. I noticed whenever one of the SEALS got busted for something and ordered to do push-ups. ALL of the other SEALS joined them. I was impressed.

I almost cry when Jocko read the story of Mike Sanchez running through live fire to save the Leitenant who took care of him.

New policy proposal: When the next draft comes, the first people drafted should be the sons, brothers, uncles, and nephews of the people that got us into the war. (Politicians, generals,defense company executives, etc...) No cushy POG jobs either...straight to the fucking line

Crazy piece of history. I'm impressed with Jocko's compassion at the situation. Impressed with Echo's ability to rationalise and understand some of the draft dodging, and for him to present Jocko with an alternative view, and for Jocko to thank him and learn from it. Great discussion from some top notch military heros. Learning a lot from these podcasts.

I have never regretted talking to men who publicly acknowledge their service in the war and those who I asked who I thought would fit the age of service. I live in Mississippi, all of these men - about half a dozen - were drafted. Only two of which went to Vietnam, our brief conversations in gas stations will always stick with me - they both served through The Tet Offensive. One of these men was an older brown gentleman, who spoke to me about surviving the assault on Hue City and eventually returning home to then begin being retrained/refitted to subdue race rights in California - his confliction was palpable. I don't remember that man's name but I will always remember his story. These are the old men of our society, I hope by God we can express gratitude and empathy to these men over there service before they're eternally gone.

You know Jocko is wound up reading about this. He rarely ever cusses this much.

My uncle got his draft notification when my dads family was in Canada. Threw it away and volunteered. Still went infantry lol got wounded twice, completed his service. Had to be put in a home for veterans who couldn't take care of themselves. He used his money he was getting from the VA to take care of the other vets who didn't have families who lived in his assisted living facility. We all had a collective cry when me and my dad had to tell those guys he passed away. He's the reason I joined the army. He was damn good man.

My grandfather was able to join the Army during the Korean War despite having just one eye (although he was switched out of his combat platoon at the last minute). Ironically, this spared him from being paired with a unit with an 80% casualty rate due to the Chinese counterattack, thus allowing yours truly to exist. The cosmos has a crazy sense of humour.

Jocko, at about the 1:40 minute mark you said Johnson knew half way in he wasn’t going to win the war”. Actually from almost the beginning Senior Asshole Johnson and Junior Asshole McNamara knew we were not going to win. If you can, get General H.R. McMaster back on to discuss his first book, “Dereliction of Duty”. That is the perfect bookend to this awesome broadcast. If you read it either schedule a six hour workout or blood pressure meds for when you finish it because you will be pissed. It is fascinating in how early in his career General McMaster wrote it. Echo Charles is at the top of his game in this podcast. Not a fan of Trump but every time someone bashed him my reply is always “you did not know LBJ did you?”. Keep up the good work.

This generation got stump fuged. My folks taught high school kids late 60s early 70s. I witnessed the era thru the cherry eyes of a child. I watched some good kids become felons to escape the draft. Many tried college, nat guard, or reserves. Many had ww2/Korea vet fathers that insisted their sons fight. I seen alot of these fellas before and after vietnam. I saw what it did to them. No other generation of Americans has been caught between a rock and a hard place like the nam generation. My hats off to them.

As a forklift driver in a cutlery warehouse, I try to put my military past to rest and focus on my current job. It is true what echo says about that thing. He is spot on.

I recently took the practice test at a recruiters office and the recruiter told me the lowest score he's seen was a one.

Crayons are for? A. Coloring B. Ammunition C. Snacks D. All of the above

Circumstances led me to where I was the highest paid, lowest ranking, oldest E4 in the USAF when I went back in 2000, then I was promoted to E5 in 2002 at 33 years old. I had been out for 7 years after the gulf war thanks to the 92 draw down, so I lost all my time in grade. The result was I got all the screw up airmen. The fat kids, the slow kids, the guys who got DUIs, and the one asshole would could not comprehend the idea of taking a shower at least twice a month and doing laundry more than once a year. They knew I had run a business with several employees between my enlistments, and the chain took advantage of that. I had all the people who had volunteered, but had attitude problems or lacked the will to keep basic up standards. I had ten airmen, only worked with two of them on my shift, two on the other shift in my duty section, and the rest in a completely different duty section. I never saw the rest of them, but would often have to go find them during the day when I worked 1900 to 0700. I rarely had a day off, and worked far too many 24, 36, and 48 hour days during my time in the USAF. Not crew rest stuff, but working like an E3 for days on end and I was usually the only one being put in that position. I was the safety NCO for my duty section as well, so I got to deal with all the screw ups made on both shifts... I was not allowed to do more than talk to them, write letters of counselling or reprimand, and after enough paperwork I could finally send it up the chain for an officer to punish them when all the remedial training failed. They volunteered to be there... Forcing NCOs to work with draftees who don't want to be there is a nightmare for an NCO. Trying to teach the slow kids to do the job, only to have them get good at it today, and have lost it all by the next day happened to me. Book smart kids who cannot operate heavy equipment or even drive a vehicle and lacked hand eye coordination was bad enough. Having someone with a 50 IQ trying to do my math and physical labor heavy job of processing cargo and putting it on aircraft would be worse than a nightmare. The slow kids usually managed to get hurt, getting caught between pallets or run over by them, and sometimes nearly killed people by pushing a pallet off a dock with no forklift to pick it up. The military is not the place for people who are not bright enough to do the job, do not want to be there, or are looking for a way to get out of it. I am beyond thrilled I have been out for the last 16 years, I would NOT want to be in right now with the current administration pushing stupid shit.

The thing they were missing about the draft is it was avoidable in the first place. America was never worried about being invaded or collapsing only losing, so they didn’t need endless soldiers as much as they just needed more. Ask a 18 year old Vietnamese kid if they could use braces or flat feet to avoid the war.

The look on Jocko's face when he read the nickel for a dime scam was sad and terrifying

My brother tried to join the Marines in 66. They turned him down due to a heart murmer which runs in my family. Then he got drafted into the army, but a few days before he was due to report, he got a letter from the Marines saying, never mind, if you still wish to join, we'll take you. He went with the Marines, but now I have to wonder if this was another example of McNamara's folly. Did they decide to lower the standards for physicals as well? He was plenty smart enough, just had that heart murmer. Thankfully, he made it through his deployment, and went on to have a good career in the school system, but he did serve in Nam.

I went through Army basic in 1993 and apparently these guys still slip through the cracks sometimes because I went to basic with a guy that was slow, he never did learn how to march by the end of training we had been dropped and done thousands of pushups for this guy but nobody said anything because there was nothing we could do this guy he just barely passed the PT test and the rifle range and he almost got recycled because he couldn't pass the run until he went off for his very last try and meraculously passed when nobody was around but the DS. Every single morning before 1st formation after PT he would come to me and my battle buddy and ask what he needed to bring to formation and the answer was the same every day, bring everything just like every other day but when we went to graduate our DSs told us this guy wasn't going to march with us when we graduate because he cant march and we might have been the first basic training platoon ever that argued with their DS because we insisted that this guy march with us and after hours of getting smoked for arguing with our DS he did get to march with us.

Jocko, I don’t agree with everything stated here regarding dodging the draft. I was in college in 1964 when I got my notice to register for the draft, which also meant I had to take a physical exam to be classified. We boarded a bus for Memphis and stayed at an old hotel the night before the exam. It was obvious that most of the men had never stayed at a hotel and some of them hadn’t been to a large city. Though we were told no drinking, about half the group got drunk and rowdy. The next day we went to a military base for the exam. I was with two of my longterm friends. One of them had shot off a big toe. He was classified 4F. The other had “hypersensitive hearing”, which was the result of our shooting rifles, shotguns & pistols for years. Another 4F. I was 1A, eligible for the draft as soon as my college deferment was up. I had gone to a land-grant college, and ROTC was compulsory for 2 years. I had enjoyed it. In the final semester of my senior year (1967) I was passing through the building where the ROTC offices were. The Air Force recruiter stopped me and asked what I was going to do after graduation. I told him I had a good job lined up. He said, “You’re going to get drafted and you’ll be toting an M-16 in a rice paddy in 6 months”. I asked him what he thought I should do, and he told me the Air Force needed pilots and if I could pass the entrance requirements I should think about it. I took the test, passed, and went to pilot training. I went to Vietnam and Thailand anyway. For 2 years. Survived ground fire, rocket attacks and SAM missiles. It was the best way for me to go to war, as I found that I had a skill that was useful. I consider it the most important 5 years of my life and shaped me forever.

The more and more that I learned about what happened during Vietnam the more that conflict saddens me.

“I’m OK at everything” needs to be on a t-shirt.

One thing about the draft, you got a tire cross section of American society. When I went though army basic in early 1970, we had guys with advanced degrees as well as a couple of McNamara’s 100k. Both were given general discharges “for the good of the service” once it became clear they lacked the mental capacity to serve at even the most basic level. One of the two was the happiest kid. He could run all day and laughed while knocking out endless push-up. He loved being in the Army. For the first time in

When I went through basic at Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri, we had a guy in our company who was totally out of shape. Couldn't do anything physical. We felt bad for him. He was a college grad. He vanished only to reappear as a captain. He had also graduated from law school. Rose, if you're out there. Good for you!

I got into a debate the other day about high ranking military leadership. My argument was that to get to that level you have to loosen your views on morality in general. And then this podcast enters into my life.

Thank you both for sharing these podcasts with us all for free. I am an elementary teacher in my first year, teaching online, trying to bridge the academic and social gaps for kids which have resulted from covid-19, in a district that encounters homelessness. Your podcasts have helped me to go to the gym after work when I can barely stay awake. In 2020, my uncle who was a 2nd force recon marine, died after a valiant fight with cancer. Listening to your podcasts filled with truth, hope, and work, helps me to feel like he's close, to laugh through the overwhelmimg, and to aim for excellence one day (often one moment) at a time. Thank you.

That futurama scene where the space commander says “i sent waves & waves of men until we beat them”… lol

That part about Freddy actually broke my heart.

I love echo's accurate psychoanalysis of the coin situation

This happened in WWII also , called casualty companies . Had a relative that commanded one of these companies , but these men was never sent to combat zones . Only thing positive that could be said for these men in WWII , they got their benefits even if they could not take full advantage of them.

The Jocko podcast is so powerful. Great content Mr. Willink!

This episodes are much better (and smarter) than a college education.

During the Nixon administration Milton Friedman was on a committee to review the draft. While interviewing General Westmoreland a verbal exchange went something like this (not direct quotes). Westmoreland said he supported the draft because he would not command an army of mercenaries. Friedman responded with - but you are OK with commanding an army of slaves?

My favorite moment of the podcast: Jocko: It's hard for me to compute being a man and being like: "Oh a bunch of people are gonna fight a war; I'm gonna go hide over here." Echo: That makes sense...that it would be hard...for you.

This reminds me of another movie, Casualties of War. There's a scene where a young private is running around acting all goofy and Michael J Fox yells at him trying to get him to chill out and the kid runs off and gets blown up by a landmine.

"The guy who's yelling at everybody is usually the guy who's not putting out." That's how the army selects people for officer training, right?

Jocko is fired up on this one and rightfully so. One Damn good pod cast!

As an American soldier you’ve got a duty to defend the weak, the poor, the innocent, even within your ranks. Use it as fuel for the fight. Cus D’amato says often a man with character will defeat a better fighter.

I work with these folks and it breaks my heart to hear this

Echo really touched a nerve with me. I worked in a max security jail for 23 years. I can’t tell you how many inmates cried poverty and how unfair the system is yet when out they had expensive cars,sneakers, clothes ect. They would rather spend their money on other things besides quality legal advice. Priorities is the difference in many many cases. Inner city people are most definitely not stupid. The vast majority are very smart. They know the system inside and out. I always thought if they could find a way to redirect there efforts most could be very successful. It was very disappointing to see daily. I will agree that we fuck over many. I think there should be a way for someone with a felony to get back all their rights as a citizen. I don’t think it should be easy, but someone that makes poor choices as a teen is not the same as a man in his late twenties or thirties that truly wants to live a different life. They are screwed due to their actions as youth. It just leads to the revolving door of prison. Give a shred of hope back to those that have worked to change their life.

Jocko, can you or Echo to organize the full podcasts into a playlist? I always have to scroll through a couple hundred videos to find what I want (no use for the clips since I watched the full pods, most of your regular listeners would probably agree). If they were segmented out, clips in one playlist and full videos on one it would make everything much more accessible and usable. Thanks

Listening to this in the truck. Never heard Jocko swear so much. This got to him. It’s pretty maddening to hear the facts. Reminds me that my cousin, older by ten years, was married with two pre school daughters. Gets divorced and is drafted at 25 frigging years old. His father was a WW2 vet who saw a bunch of shit, so doing his duty was in his DNA. He didn’t go to Vietnam, as he was pretty bookish and worked in staff positions when knowing how to type was a skill. He sometimes was tasked with delivering death notification to inner city 1960’s Louisville. My other cousin was pretty bright, and knew that finishing first place in AIT meant you could choose your duty station . He finished number one and selected “not Vietnam “. Germany he we come. Speaks volumes. Finish as the best in Advanced Infantry Training, and you don’t have to go to a war zone.

McNamara's Folly demonstrates that we the people must stand and give our consent to the decisions/laws of our elected representatives. The government serves us, not the other way around. Whenever this principle is neglected, the individual, our freedoms, and our country suffers - no one wins (except maybe some of the elites). When a draft is invoked, it means the military action demanded is against the will of the governed. When a mandate in invoked, it means the governmental action is against the will of the people to live freely.

I love all of your podcasts Jocko but today this is the best podcast you and Echo have ever done. If not for you talking about this I never knew of this part of the war.

I remember in the movie "A FEW GOOD MEN" The part where the two accused marines talk and the older marine says "we are supposed to protect those that cant protect themselves"

those questions are the same today, took my asvab for the marines about 2 months ago and the questions were similar. He started reading them and first thing that clicked was me sitting in the room by myself with a computer being like “ this is first grade stuff “

Echo had such great clarity in this interaction. Great discussions guys keep up the great work! From Montreal, Canada 🇨🇦

Judging by the title, this is gunna be a really interesting one.

I'm from a very small rural town in Sweden, when I was a child I talked to an older man in the store when my dad grabbed me and walk away saying "He's a draft dodger from the states, don't talk to him". He is known as "the dodger" and still today noone talks to him.

Settled in for the evening with coffee and story time with Jocko..... good times

I believe I met and worked alongside one of these men back in the early 1990's. It was at McDonalds, Norton, Ohio. Roy was a late-Vietnam-era vet, but - luckily - he didn't see action. Instead, he was assigned to setting up volleyball nets, sports fields, etc. at the base he was at (may have been in Alaska, but that was so long ago that I can't recall), as well as clean-up duties and such. Real simple guy. I was 20 years old and working while going through college (or trying to). I felt bad for him.

Let me guess, McNamara was never held accountable for this? Starting a shameful trend where the higher ups aren't held accountable for their actions. Just ask Stuart Scheller

This is a shameful chapter in American history. Totally gut wrenching.

Finally, caught up with you guys. 315. Been with you guys for 3 years ++. Crushing the drive to work and back home with the Jocko and the troopers. Get some!

2:26:48 - My section spent 30 hours sitting in the desert with a recovery asset while the rest of the Army tried to recover the two soldiers captured in retaliation for the actions of those shitbags. The two MIA's corpses showed up on the side of Route Tampa, charred and decapitated, three days after the search was called off.

The image of the returning soldiers were probably a cause of the public not wanting to go fight.

In 2007 I wanted to join the military and they rejected me because of my "bad back/spine". Since then, I have been a prison guard, an active LEO and competed in sambo tournaments. I never had problems with my back. Those medical rules are just strange, also in europe.

I’m barely 12 minutes in and gupton is already killing me 😭🤣

This episode is also relevant in the era of Fauchi and the vaccine mandates, in the military, health care, and the general population

Fair play to Jocko and Echo for speaking on the dark sides of the military too,

I have friends and family who fought in WW2, Korea and Nam. I give great respect to them all. They did what had to be done. Thank you to all who serve and who have served.

Heartbreaking! Thank you for conveying this knowledge.

I was approached to join the local National Guard. I decided to take my chances on not being drafted. 2 years later the Northeast Kansas Unit was activated and sent to Vietnam. 2 boys I knew were killed there. I had taken the pre induction physical but was saved by the abolishment of the draft.

Its 3am and I woke up thinking of the Jocko!!!! BEAT U THIS TIME TOMA 🕺

So far I really like this one. I didn't know Jocko was a comedian as well as a decorated Seal and I like that Echo is much more vocal.

Currently individuals with Autism, even those that were formerly known as Aspergers, are not eligible for enlistment in the Military. Yet, they are still required to sign up for Selective Service, to be available for the draft if needed. Calling on them will happen again, we just haven't engaged in a substantial enough conflict yet.

This makes me wonder about our recent wars. I knew a few "ASVAB waiver" Marines I served with during my time in USMC infantry back in 2005-2009. Even then, I couldn't help but wonder if it was normal or was it because bodies were needed to fill a quota...saddens me deeply.

McNamara also refused to let Colt make 30 rounders due to 'cost' I am sure that killed a lot of people

Come to think about it, during late WW2 we needed bodies so bad we were sending men into combat with two weeks worth of training, and a day on the rifle range. The WW2 veterans from the early/mid war had months to even years of training and preparation, but months before D-Day they dropped the standards on training. I'm curious if they dropped the stranders for qualification too?

The "I bet everyone thinks the way I think" thing is called the false consensus effect.

They found a loophole with the log segments 😆

Very enjoyable overview of the book, thank you.

Awesome can't wait to listen to this .

Love your iron character and hard will. Thx for being you brother

Listening to this, I get the feeling Jocko is talking to a particular group, without actually identifying said group. Its likely that group, listened for..maybe 30 minutes, bailed, disparaging the messenger. Thanks Jocko, Echo..

Thanks Jocko for this podcast, and in reading Mcnamara's book on the Vietnam recruitment process loopholes. 😇

McNamara's Standards are now common place for people in Washington today...

I graduated High School in 1967 and didn't really have the money for college and wanted no part of the war. However I came from a family that had served in the military since the War of 1812. I knew I needed to serve but wanted no part of the Army or Marines. . I always wanted to join the Navy as did my grandfather. during WW1. I was an Aviation Electricians Mate. during my 4 years. in service. I also wanted to go in order to get the G.I. Bill. I did and attended college after my term was over. I am happy that I served but never supported the war. Most of us just tolerated the military and just counting down time from the day we joined.

I remember hearing there was serious consideration of it being reimplemented when manpower got tight during the Iraq war

I worked for a man who served with a few of these low IQ people. He said they were more dangerous to have around than not have around. Some didn't understand that they were in danger while in a fire fight, which is bad for obvious reasons.. The way he explained it was heartbreaking.

David Goggins would be a real gem for the podcast if you would have him and do a Jocko podcast with him

1:03:42 Imagine that... Cheney was all about war when he was young enough to have served in one, yet still managed to skate out of it.

I first heard about this through a history RU-vid channel called the Front. He did a very interesting video on it.

Holy crap!! This is crazy! I enjoyed jocko reading... it flows well. Thank you sir.

Jocko is extra amped today. I like it. Must be the "GO". Great episode

Thanks for sharing this. I’ve never heard of Project 100k, and it’s definitely shocking.

Tilt got spider parks!!!! Sogcast is the best podcast on RU-vid. These men were built different. It's hard to comprehend. I've been waiting for SPIDER!!!!! 🕷

One of your best Mr. Wollink!

Thank you for this history lesson

Thank you for putting this out. As a leader in the business world it is hard going through the staffing shortage we are currently facing. The idea has been floated to reduce standards, and this emphasis why we can't do this.

This is wild. It's almost hard to wrap your head around the fact that this actually happened and isn't made up.

Hack supported the draft in About Face. I could be wrong, and I don't have my copy close at hand, but I could have sworn Hack argued in About Face that the draft was important because it kept the Army honest, and it was important to have regular civilian style perspectives WITHIN the military, ESPECIALLY during times of war. I might be confusing David Hackworth's book About Face with Mathew Brennan's book Brennan's War, but I'm pretty sure both argued the draft was important to hold the military accountable. I would go so far as to argue: if you are not willing to institute compulsitory military service... it's probably a REALLY good sign you shouldn't be getting involved in that war to begin with.

*“As we waste time, time is wasting us - Ryan Holiday*

Thak you Terry for sharing this, your wonderful. All generations are wonderful Love those who laugh, care for those u know how.

My dad had a fun one about the "sign up to avoid the draft" line. Navy recruiters would say, "Hey why not a medical MOS? Get in a hospital they'll even have nurses...." You know where the marines get their medics right?

Love this collab 🇺🇸❤🙏

When Jocko was talking about the draft I thought "we spent so much time talking about the hearts and minds" and we meant the enemy. If the American people aren't willing to go to war, maybe we shouldn't. Maybe it should be the hearts and minds of our people we should win.

I learned about McNamara from from Errol Morris documentary ‘The Fog of War’ and I did find his intelligence and expressive personality charismatic and tried to understand what he was trying to do during the Vietnam War, however to hear this story that this well educated and powerful individual had the idea of conscripting men who should not have been taken and placed into the army and if he was fully aware of this it’s just totally immoral and foul. Note: I volunteered to join the army and became a medic and served in Iraq.

I once watched what must have been a 10 episode, 1 hour each series on the Vietnam War. I never heard ANYTHING about this 😮

The problem was it was not a declared war. War must be voted on by the people's representatives in the House of Representatives.

Great podcast Vietnam and project 💯K are one of those lessons from history that needs to be learned so history doesn’t repeat!!!!!