Jonathan Neville - The Origin of The Mesoamerican Book of Mormon Geography Model 

At least God is consistent!

Yep! The Lord revealed to me that the key to linking the genolgies of the BOM and modern people lays with the Yaqui and Couchimi Indians in particular, a long. With the Hopi, Puebla, Anastasia, Western Cherokee, Paiute.. All the Southwestern USA/ Northwestern Mexico peoples. Spent four hours with my jaw on the ground listening to a Couchimi Indian professor regale me with 2000 years of history and people of Baja California. Ruined everywhere, none explored. No LiDAR. Nada…. I’m calling my quest “Moroni’s Journey”. #DavidicServant

@@jestubbs69and that entire southwest region lays on the 33rd parallel

Joseph Smith's mother went often to that grove to pray. Which is probably where Joseph got the idea of where to pray.

No

So true! I agree!

@monicacreates What did Joseph say specifically?

​​@@MrNirom1 He said there is a room in the Hill Cumorah that had, I repeat had so many gold plated they were about two feet stacked on the floor. They were moved by Joseph. Oliver Cowdry saw them. It was said they filled sevral wagons. Mormon put those plates there. They are the plates of Nephi from which the book of Mormon was abridged from. Maroni buried the gold plates later in another location on the Hill. We know Maroni did not carry the plates of Nephi from Mexico or Central America, because of that, so we know the heartland is where all the Book of Mormon took place. There are photos from f the entrance to the room. There are photos of pieces of the stone box. Do your research. I have done my research As our current prophet said, we will not survive in n the work other people have done to gain knowledge and testamony of the truth. That is what you doing by asked someone else what Joseph Smith said

@@Chardona24 Yes... I have read about it... but from a different source than where you get yours from. This is what my source said: The so-called Cumorah Cave, which has been described as a room within the hill Cumorah in New York state. In fact, there are at least ten second-hand accounts describing the story of a cave in Cumorah, however, according to Cameron J. Packer (in “Cumorah’s Cave”) Joseph Smith himself did not record the incident (Journal of Book of Mormon Studies 13/1 (2004), pp 50-57). The Hill Cumorah in upstate western New York. It is such a gradual incline to a short height that it is hardly remarkable and noticeable when approaching it from any angle except the north The reason Joseph did not (record the incident) was probably because as a drumlin, the hill Cumorah in New York is simply a pile of gravel scraped together by an ancient glacier. Thus the geologic properties of the hill would make a cave technically impossible because the hill is nothing more than a moraine laid down anciently by a glacier in motion, and is comprised of gravel and earth. Therefore, geologically, it is impossible for the hill to have a cave, and all those who have gone in search of the cave have come back empty-handed. Based on Nephi’s experience, “I was caught away in the Spirit of the Lord, yea, into an exceedingly high mountain, which I never had before seen, and upon which I never had before set my foot” (1 Nephi 11:1), undoubtedly what was seen by those who recorded a cave, were likely seeing a type of vision. The story of the cave full of plates inside the Hill Cumorah in New York is often given as evidence that it is, indeed, the hill where Mormon hid the plates. Yorgason quotes one version of the story from Brigham Young and alludes to six others collected by Paul T. Smith. Unfortunately, none of the accounts is firsthand. Given that the angel Moroni had retrieved the plates from Joseph several times previously, it is not unreasonable to assume that he was capable of transporting them to a different location than the hill in New York. As Tvedtnes asks, "If they could truly be moved about, why not from Mexico, for example? (John A. Tvedtnes, "Review of Little Known Evidences of the Book of Mormon by Brenton G. Yorgason," FARMS Review of Books 2/1, 1990, pp 258-259). Oliver states that when Joseph and he went there, the hill opened, and they walked into a cave, in which there was a large and spacious room. He says he did not think, at the time, whether they had the light of the sun or artificial light; but that it was just as light as day. They laid the plates on a table; it was a large table that stood in the room. Under this table there was a pile of plates as much as two feet high, and there were altogether in this room more plates than probably many wagon loads; they were piled up in the corners and along the walls (Brigham Young, "Trying to be Saints,” June 17, 1877, Journal of Discourses 19:38). (Heber C. Kimball stated in 1856, “How does it compare with the vision that Joseph and others had, when they went into a cave in the hill Cumorah, and saw more records than ten men could carry? There were books piled up on tables, book upon book. Those re- cords this people will yet have, if they accept of the Book of Mormon and observe its precepts, and keep the commandments” (Journal of Discourses, 28 September 1856). In fact, according to Brigham Young, Heber C. Kimball President [Heber C.] Kimball talked familiarly to the brethren about Father Smith, [Oliver] Cowdery, and others walking into the hill Cumorah and seeing records upon records piled upon table[s,] they walked from cell to cell and saw the records that were piled up.” (Manuscript History of Brigham Young, 5 May 1867). President Young said in relation to Joseph Smith returning the Plates of the Book of Mormon that he did not return them to the box from which he had received them, but he went into a cave in the hill Cumorah with Oliver Cowdery and deposited those plates upon a table or shelf. In that room were deposited a large amount of gold plates Containing sacred records and when they first visited that Room the sword of Laban was hanging upon the wall and when they last visited it the sword was drawn from the scabbard and laid upon a table and a Messenger who was the keeper of the room informed them that that sword would never be returned to its scabbard until the Kingdom of God was established upon the Earth and until it reigned triumphant over every enemy. Joseph Smith said that Cave contained tons of choice treasures and records (Wilford Woodruff journal, 11 December 1869). “Brigham Young said that when Oliver Cowdery and Joseph Smith were in the cave this third time, they could see its contents more distinctly than before…It was about fifteen feet high and round its sides were ranged boxes of treasure. In the centre was a large stone table empty before, but now piled with similar gold plates, some of which lay scattered on the floor beneath. Formerly the sword of Laban hung on the walls sheathed, but it was now unsheathed and lying across the plates on the table; and One that was with them said it was never to be sheathed until the reign of Righteousness was upon the earth” (Elizabeth Kane Journal, 15 January 1873). Speaking of Brigham Young, Jesse Nathaniel Smith stated in 1874, “I heard him at an evening meeting in Cedar City describe an apartment in the Hill Cumorah that some of the brethren had been permitted to enter. He said there was great wealth in the room in sacred implements, vestments, arms, precious metals and precious stones, more than a six-mule team could draw” (Jesse Nathaniel Smith Journal, February 1874). Brigham Young also said, “I tell you this as coming not only from Oliver Cowdery, but others who were familiar with it, and who understood it just as well as we understand coming to this meeting…[Don] Carlos Smith was a young man of as much veracity as any young man we had, and he was a witness to these things. Samuel Smith saw some things, Hyrum saw a good many things, but Joseph was the leader” (Journal of Discourses, 17 June 1877). Edward Stevenson, Reminiscences of Joseph the Prophet, 1877, tells a similar story, as does David Whitmer, s mentioned earl, 16 August 1878, in an interview with P. Wilhelm Poulson; as did Orson Pratt, in The Contributor, September 1882. Certainly, sufficient evidence suggests that to certain early Church leaders, including Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery, knowledge of a cave associated with the New York hill Cumorah opened before them and allowed them entrance. However, that this was an actual cave within the hill is simply not likely because of the makeup of that hill. The likelihood of it being some type of vision that opened before them as many early Saints, including Nephi as stated earlier and Joseph as he recorded many times, the point is the fact that a cave appeared in an area where caves cannot exist naturally, suggests that the actual appearance was of an object elsewhere that was brought to light within the existence of those present at the time. This in no way diminishes the existence and reality of the cave and its occupants, only that its actual physical existence was not within the hill Cumorah itself, no more than the numerous host of eminent spirits associated with the signing of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution appeared in a physical room in the St. George Temple that could not possibly have held their number. In that event, the room opened up to a vision that Wilford Woodruff had when George Washington and the other Founding Fathers of this great Nation and other eminent men and women appeared to him in vision requesting their Temple work be completed in 1877. As Elder Woodruff stated: “Two weeks before I left St. George, the spirits of the dead gathered around me, wanting to know why we did not redeem them. Said they, “You have had the use of the Endowment House for a number of years, and yet nothing has ever been done for us. We laid the foundation of the government you now enjoy, and we never apostatized from it, but we remained true to it and were faithful to God.” Everyone of those men that signed the Declaration of Independence, with General Washington, called upon me as an Apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ, in the Temple at St. George, two consecutive nights, and demanded at my hands that I should go forth and attend to the ordinances of the House of God for them” (April 1898 General Conference). As mentioned earlier, an interesting interview regarding this cave took place between David Whitmer and P. Wilhelm Poulson, as recorded in the Deseret Evening News, 16 August 1878, wherein Paulson asked where the plates were now and David Whitmer replied, “In a cave, where the angel has hidden them up till the time arrives when the plates, which are sealed, shall be translated. God will yet raise up a mighty one, who shall do his work till it is finished and Jesus comes again.” Poulson then asked “Where is that cave?” to which Whitmer answered, “In the state of New York,” and Poulson asked, “In the Hill Cumorah?” to which Whitmer replied, “No, but not far away from that place.”

@@MrNirom1this is interesting. I need to read up on this more. Thank you for sharing this information. 👍😊

Nope...

Thank you, we are doing our best!

I like the whole theme of this channel being evidences of this Book of Mormon. But the Pastor Jeff episode was awesome too. It shows how good of apologists you two are as well.

You miss the black swamp.and Yankees marsh as.a.narow neck of land. With gives rise to the eastern massasauga rattlesnake that realy like the wetlands. Snow happens even in Israel and is not recorded in the Bible so no mention. Of it in the BOM is not a disprove of no snow.

​@@shadowknightgladstay4856 ​» The Eastern Massasauga Rattlesnake, to which you refer, doesn't really qualify as the Book of Mormon's highly-venomous, aggressive serpent, and certainly not one that would clear a narrow neck of land in cold, snowy environs found in Canada and the northern USA. And though it's venomous, it's not really aggressive---certainly not the type that would pursue livestock. That said, there are many fire snakes in Mesoamerica, that are highly aggressive and venomous. The Mojave Green Rattlesnake is one of the absolute worst. No aggressive, venomous snake in Canada or the northern USA can thrive in cold weather. Remember, the serpent has to be aggressive and it has to thrive in cold weather. As for snow in the Bible, yes, it's mentioned many times. Simply do a Google search for “Bible snow” Benaiah killing a lion in a pit on a snowy day in 2 Samuel 23:20. The reason the Bible doesn't mention horrible snow and ice storms is because there were none. When I worked for NIH several years back, I asked one of our contacts in Israel about snow and ice storms there. She told me that yes, they had snow, but they were brief and inconsequential. Storms would drive the snow into drifts that gave it a clean, pure look, but it would come one day and be gone the next. So check it out. If I thought for one minute that the Book of Mormon took place, or could take place, in the northeastern USA, I would happily concede the issue. I just can't get there from here.

Same for me!

Yes, this is the Nephite weapons cache. I have and Idea where to start looking for it. #DavidicServant

I did too in the 60"s, I knew their culture and dates were similar to the Book of Mormon timeline. I had not read the BOM then but later in life after reading the BOM many times, it hit me like a ton of bricks. Thats all I think about, and have even done some nice road trips to Tennessee, Ohio, Iowa to see the Hopwell Earthworks and muesums

So yeah it happened in Mesoamerica

@JEFF3OLSEN 19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness to God. As the Scriptures say, “He traps the wise in the snare of their own cleverness.” 16 And now, because of the glory of the world and to get gain will they say this, and not for the glory of God. 17 And the man shall say: I cannot bring the book, for it is sealed. 26 For the atonement satisfieth the demands of his justice upon all those who have not the law given to them, that they are delivered from that awful monster, death and hell, and the devil, and the lake of fire and brimstone, which is endless torment; and they are restored to that God who gave them breath, which is the Holy One of Israel. Anyone understand what endless torment is really?

I've thought about this too. I feel like any geographic descriptions before 3 Nephi are unreliable.

@@loudogg73 heartland theory does. infact its part on of its main points also why can't it have happened in the heart land but then the laminates migrated south per their history? why can't the culture have migrated and that is explains a lot of the meso evidence

But the narrow neck of land still persisted before and after 3rd Nephi.

The single constant that remained the same that Mormon used as a landmark was the narrow neck of land. There is only one location that fits that description before and after the great changes and that's the Isthmus of Darian, now currently known as the Isthmus of Panama. That's the one landmark in the records Mormon possessed for his abridgement that never changed. Then there's the fact that Joseph Smith said that Lehi's group landed south of the Isthmus of Darian (Panama). The Isthmus runs east to west and the body of land south of it is South America. Heartlanders will try to refute it, but it's in the Church archives and not a single prophet since Joseph denounced its authenticity. Which also means it is endorsed by our current leaders as truth by revelation. That's also why in Helaman 6:10 Mormon records that the land south was called Lehi and the land north was called Mulek because it was the place of their landings.

Spot on

It is pushed because it is the only feasible and plausible model backed up by geographically sound convergences that are requisite for consideration. Two simple things that helped me convert from Heartland to MesoAmerica: 1) volcanic geography doesn’t exist in North America to support the cataclysmic event in third Nephi. 2) Columbus never set foot on North America n which the BoM specifically mentions. Of course there are a myriad more things like population, archeological findings, writing etc. that doesn’t fit in a Heartland model. Also, many of the relics found in the U.S. that have been used as evidence are known frauds. Meldrum and this guest use old cherry picked quotes of old leaders as evidence. Those are not evidence and just opinions.

Great verses!

@daleclark7127 Both sides accuse the other of cherry picking. I'm not "converted" to either position, but because of the scriptures I do lean to the HLM. If it was important to know it would have been made more clear. I'm not challenging your view, just curious what you think of the scriptures I listed, besides reference to Columbus. BTW I just googled it and the Mayan civilization began long before Lehi arrived, but its peak also corresponds to the Nephite timeframe in either MA or HLM theories. Maybe what they call early Mayans were Jaredites before Lehi? IDK

@@johnbushman57 I did read those scriptures versus and am also quite familiar with these being used to promote the idea the “land” is specifically talking about the United States. Unfortunately, the land is not just the US but is the continent and the promises of freedom are for the whole of the continent. See it is easy to interpret this with a mindset of the way we perceive our country with nostalgia and patriotism. That is just not the right way to approach the geography of the Book of Mormon. To be taken seriously there are other convergences of evidences that need to be considered. Nationalistic tradition can’t put the pieces together and ALL puzzle pieces have to fit. Brant Gardner is an excellent and solid scholar that helped me see the light on this subject. Hey, of course I could be misled too. Nevertheless, it is pretty obvious that the Heartland Model has just too many gaps and at current the mesoamerican model is the best. Thanks for engaging in this subject with me. May the Lord bless you and your family always.

@daleclark7127 I'm glad we can keep this cordial, unlike other social mediars (I made that up). Sounds like you've made up your mind. I haven't yet, though I don’t lose any sleep over it. And I don't necessarily go by what "solid scholars" say, no matter what or how many initials they have behind their names. The Jonathan Neville on this video also seems very solid. I'm sure you and they who swear by the MAM are good people. So are HLM advocates. I don't lean towards the HLM because of patriotism. That's ridiculous. The ones who got me even considering the HLM were LDS in France. It isn't just some of us Saints in the U.S. who consider the HLM. You said the promises of freedom are for the whole of the continent. North and South America are two continents. Central America and Mexico and the Carribean is usually considered part of North America. So there is that. Is the Promised Land Lehi and Nephi speak of all of North America, Central America, and South America? Could be. I hope so. But you are right that I have a hard time with "this land" for the MAM. Lehi says after he landed in the Promised Land in 2 Nephi 1 "this land shall be a land of liberty... where they shall never be brought down into captivity." Is that true of all of South America like in Venezuala? Or Cuba in the Carribean? But I suppose here Lehi is speaking about his own people, where they can lose it because of iniquity or other nations will come and scatter and smite them. That happened. But in Nephi's vision in 1 Nephi 13:34 where it says, "I will be merciful unto the Gentiles in that day, insomuch that I will bring forth unto them, in mine own power, much of my gospel... these things shall be hid up, to come forth unto the Gentiles...," you don't think that is prophecying about America? Or Ether 2:12, "this is a choice land, and whatsoever nation shall possess it shall be free from bondage, and from captivity, and from all other nations under heaven..." or D&C 10:53, "If this generation harden not their hearts, I will establish my church among them." So MAM? HLM? It isn't as clear and undebatable as you seem to say. OK, I've rambled enough. One day we will know the truth of all things and I can't wait because I have lots of questions I'd like to have answered, just for fun. None will affect our salvation, though. I haven't made my mind up, but I do wish you and yours the best and thanks for the discussion.

The step pyramids at the heights that we know them now were built after 400 ad. These were sacred sites in Book of Mormon times but were added upon by each subsequent ruler until they reached their current height. Then the civilization declined and they were abandoned.

"emphatic proponents" of the Law of Moses? Not according to 2 Ne 25:24-25, Mosiah 12 & 13. They kept the law of Moses, but the true believers knew that the law only pointed to Christ. It was the Jews and Deuteronomists in Jerusalem that "looked past the mark" and practically worshipped the law instead of Christ.

What fire? When were they discussing fire?

Google it. 😂

Strawmanning the strawman

According to Heartlanders, the Jaredites would be up in Canada. So "this land" would not even be the Continental US. It's ironic because that is the same argument they use against the Meso model. Can't have it both ways.

…like a plague of small pox

"A young warthog" :) .

Wait, Jacob is quoting a prophet from the brass plates from Israel

^_^ What do you think about the African race ? Brigham Young said : Shall I tell you THE LAW OF GOD in regard to THE AFRICAN RACE ? If the white man who BELONGS TO THE CHOSEN SEED mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the PENALTY, under THE LAW OF GOD, is DEATH ON THE SPOT. This will ALWAYS be so. Brigham Young (Journal of Discourses 10:110-111) Speech in March 8, 1863. Brigham Young said : You see some classes of the human family that are BLACK, uncouth, uncomely, DISAGREEABLE and low in their habits, wild, and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the INTELLIGENCE that is generaly bestowed upon mankind... Cain slew his brother. Cain might have been killed, and that would have put a TERMINATION to that line of human beings. This was not to be, and the Lord put a MARK UPON HIM, which is the FLAT NOSE and BLACK SKIN. Brigham Young ( Journal of Discourses volume 7: p.290) Speech in 1863. Do you agree with Brigham Young here ? And Is it TRUTHLY from God ?

The D&C says the gospel would be taken to the seed of the Lamanites. So where are the missionaries going to most, NA Indian Reservations or Latin America?

The areas aren't too small. The thing is is that the records primarily stayed within the borders of the Nephrite nation, but Mormon did say that the whole face of the land north and south, so both North and South America, was filled with people. But we know there were many other records besides the two records of Nephi that were kept. The problem with the Heartland model is that geographically nothing works and it's easy to expose as to why it doesn't work. The problem with the Meso America model is that it's too restrictive. I personally don't support either model and never will. Both parties cherry pick to try to prove themselves right. I know where Lehi's landing was approximately. I'm familiar as to where about everything took place during the time of the Book of Mormon. My primary source is the Book of Mormon and anything else I found either reinforces what I learned or corrects what I got wrong. And that's the problem with Heartland and Meso America, both are so convinced that they're right that they're both unwilling to open their minds to the possibility of being wrong; and they also misinterpret what is said by Joseph and others because it fits their narrative. I suggest that you walk away from both. I've taken very little time to learn about either, but what I do find is generally incorrect.

Wayne May also started out "a meso guy". We all did. But now fir for many of us, the Heartland seems right.

why can't it have happened in the heart land but then the laminates migrated south per their history? why can't the culture have migrated and that is explains a lot of the meso evidence. this matches the dating

​@@nathancrawley5212this. In addition, there's no reason not to think that the Americas, everywhere, already had peoples settled in from anywhere. For example, the Mayans could have started as a lost Ten Tribe remnant, that had some Lamanites join them and influence their culture to become what we recognize now as Mayans. Move, shift, integrate, replenish, rise and fall, repeat. Anasazi, Olmecs, Aztecs, Incas, could all have roots from anywhere, really. The fact an ancient culture might show indications of Christian or Jaredite or Nephite influence doesn't prove a whole lot about its beginning.

@@vendingdudesI have thought along these lines too. But would it be possible that these remnants also had their own prophets and history and their own version of the Book of Mormon that we don’t know about? And extend that even further to South America. And far East Asia. All corners of the earth. All with their own prophets and plates. We were only given the Book of Mormon, but could there be other records out there that we don’t know about? Just a thought.

The Maya were of Asian origin DNA has confirmed. Scholars match the ruins down there with Hindu temples in Malaysia

Is it possible the blossoming like a rose hasn't happened yet?

Exactly.

Near Niagra falls. The Great Lakes were the east an west seas

I think Wayne May covered that when he was interviewed, but I don't remember what he said. 😅

@@esm1817 yes he talked about the water of the Great Lakes having been broader and more substantial marshes if I'm remembering correctly.

Wayne May talks about the "Great Black Swamp" that covered a large part of Ohio and Indiana., basically making Lake Erie much larger back then. If Fort Wayne was "under water" back then, it would have been just over 100 miles between Lake Erie and Lake Michigan. It seems to me that 100 miles is about "1 1/2 days journey for a Nephite".

Hagoth

Or from Pacific coast of future USA. Or they sailed out from the shores of the southern parts of the great lakes.

I am family members with the Wolfgramms through marriage. It doesn’t really matter so much what their “oral” tradition says. They probably took cues from some others that claimed a relationship to Hagoth. But we know that Tongans came from Fiji and and New Zealand. So the Wolfgramms have a family tradition perhaps, but there is no good proof to believe that. There is no DNA evidence, nor even phenotypic evidence, to believe that they are related to middle eastern people.

@@SmoothRuffian I've had the book in storage for over 15 years. I may try to locate and review.

That's an extremely complex subject and the answers you'll get depend on who you ask. In general, most people agree that the Urim and Thummim are 2 glass stones that are mentioned in the Book of Mormon as the Nephite Interpreters. These 2 stones were in the stone box with the Gold Plates and placed there for the purpose of translating the Book of Mormon. They can be mounted into a frame and attached to a breastplate like reading glasses. It is basically just Martin Harris that claimed Joseph Smith used these 2 stones to translate the Book of Mormon during the first 119 pages that were lost and are not part of the Book of Mormon today. The Seer Stone is different. The Seer stone was discovered by Joseph Smith while digging a well. It is not ancient and not used by the Nephites. Some witnesses also claim this is the stone Joseph Smith placed in his hat to translate the Book of Mormon. The modern LDS Church has always had this stone and recently published pictures of it.

@@redfightblue ok thanks. So I guess the Urim and Thummim were used in conjunction with the breast plates? And the seer stone are more of a tool used in folk lore? You would think after 47 years as a LDS member I would know this haha

Definitely different. 100% different.

Re DNA, all 3 types of DNA testing (mitochondrial, patrilineal and autosomal) are consistent with a partial non-Asian ancestry which can fit the Book of Mormon. I know that's not the "generally accepted" view but it is what the actual data show when you look at it carefully. I am willing to present the information on this show if they're interested. I emailed Jackson today.

Except that the timing is wrong. Chichen Itza (shown in the background of the painting with Christ visiting BofM people) was at best built as early as 600 AD. Also, the Mayan pyramids best represent Hindu temples from India. In fact, there are a lot of similarities between the Mayan and Hindu religious beliefs.

That is inaccurate Mayan pyramids date back hundreds of years BC. Pyramids look very similar around the world because Jacob's descendants spread everywhere after the Exodus. They all lived in Egypt and saw the pyramids. Remember that God promised Jacob's seed to spread upon the whole earth.

European Caucasians are originally called Indo-Europeans because they stretched all the way from Ireland to India, covering the North and South Mediterranean. Their origin is the Levant region of the Middle East. Do you know the original meaning of Iran? Look it up.

Joseph was married to an Egyptian woman, Ephram and Manassah We are half Egyptian

There are no pyramids in the Holy Land that I know about.

And how about the "wagon loads of records" for this 954 hour trek? And is Guadalajara far enough?

Hahahaha Leg-Crossers unite!!!! We have a venmo link in the description👍🏼 God Bless you.

Yep. Lamanites are said to be wearing barely nothing, yet no mention of freezing winters ever.

@@fightingfortruth9806 Not even a hint of mentioning cold weather.

It also doesn't mention rainy seasons.

@shanandkyleSau No, but if you've ever been to Southern Mexico, you will see the people there can wear very little clothing despite the rain.