Jordan Peterson, White Supremacy and the Perils of Engagement with Yahya Birt

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This is primarily an audio podcast and the majority of our listeners subscribe using a podcast app like Apple or Spotify - for more information visit www.thinkingmuslim.com
Is there a problem with Muslim public intellectuals and scholars that engage with the political right? My guest this week, Yayha Birt, believes that white convert scholars that interact with the likes of Jordan Peterson should evaluate whether they risk confirming their anti-Islam prejudices and a distasteful pro-white ideology that today undergirds the populist white nativist backlash. In a recent piece he penned found here: www.ihrc.org.uk/the-unbearabl..., Birt, a Muslim convert, is critical of those that belong to the neo-traditionalist school, an Islamic persuasion he shares, who need to ask more profound questions about their outreach activities with the right-wing and whether by doing so they undermine second and third generation Muslims who face racial and religious hatred in the mainstream. Yahya believes that although one needs to show due respect to scholars this does not mean we must show them deference when they show political naivety or confirm problematic political causes.
Yahya Birt is a research director at the Ayaan Institute in London and is a community historian who has taught at the University of Leeds. He has published over a dozen peer-reviewed articles on Islam in Britain and co-edited British Secularism and Religion (2016), Islam in Victorian Liverpool (2021) and The Collected Poems of Abdullah Quilliam (2021).
His most recent book on Abdullah Quilliam can be found here: www.amazon.co.uk/Islam-Victor...
More about Yahya Birt here : ayaaninstitute.com/yahya-birt/
As always, you can comment your thoughts below.
Twitter: / thinking_muslim
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Instagram: / thinkingmuslimpodcast
Presenter: / jalalayn
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The Thinking Muslim Podcast Episode 73
00:00 Introduction
02:50 Yahya Birt
04:09 What is white nativism?
08:30 Is white nativism just a political tool created by the left?
09:41 Unease about certain Muslim public intellectuals and scholars
16:45 Disagreement with SHY and AHM
19:14 Are conservatives closer to Muslim causes than those on the left?
22:55 The conversion of Joram van Klaveren a victory for engagement?
27:18 SHY, AHM and their institutions
29:23 The difference in their engagement methodologies
31:54 Are non-white Muslim cultures looked upon with disdain?
36:17 Tackling racism within cultural communities
38:24 Neo-traditionalism and political quietism
42:02 Fascination with white converts to Islam
49:38 Three-Tone Islam
52:40 Early conversions to Islam in Europe and Britain
53:55 Abdul Hadi Agueli and Lord Farooq Headley
57:54 Abdullah Quilliam

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1 июл 2024

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Комментарии : 29

@hamzawebb6188 Год назад

I'm not sure Yahya has got it right about AHM's views on the initial cohort of Muslim immigrants only coming for worldly reasons. On the ground, when you speak to that generation, the Elders tell you quite clearly that is all they came for. Make some money and go home. No intention for deen or even staying and making roots here. Another brilliant and thought-provoking podcast. Allah bless you both in your works.

@koroglurustem1722 Год назад

Great probing questions as usual. Answers are nuanced most of the times. You can certainly raise the question of discrimination against the likes of Jordan. So it seems that we do not have intellectuals to engage head on with Jordan, challenge him and persuade him of the commonalities between Islam and the Christian west. As a general principle, we don't accept everything from anyone, not even from shaikh Hamza or even great imams, except the prophet himself. This applies to Jordan as well. I don't know why people make big fuss about what Jordan said to Muslims or whatever. I still keep listening to people, including Jordan since he has a lot to offer yet. Everyone needs to develop their minds to discern the right from wrong. Our faith is not hanging upon the opinions of intellectuals, Muslim or non-Muslim. These are just random thoughts I came up with.

@SaceedAbul Год назад

Issue is that Jordan hasn’t for an instance been challenged for his views. Dawah isn’t always just about giving soft questions but also cutting to the deeper questions. Soft gloves of basic questions for him has only let him think he’s right about his wrong positions. Especially the views on the Palestinians.

@williambarylo Год назад

Very few people have the depth, the knowledge, the experience and the nuance of Yahya Birt. When most discussions sound like echo chambers, Yahya brings a perspective we all need to take into account.

@Alex21441 Год назад

I agree

@powerbuilder978 Год назад

He a guilty white leftist. It makes my skin crawl. Imagine thinking a literal civic nationalist philisophical liberal is far right. Its funny because the far right think Islam is based, support palestine over israel etc. Its the civnat liberals like ben shapiro and crowder whohate Muslims. Neo Nazis literally talk about white sharia lol.

@agrehman7488 Год назад

What a riveting discussion; thanks for bringing it to us. You don't have to agree with every word spoken here to respect the quality and calibre of dialogue. More please!

@notyourbus Год назад

Don't agree about what said about sheikh Hamzeh, without sheikh Hamzeh western scholars no one wants to talk to Muslims or know about their religion. And Hamzeh in his conversation was clear about how attracted to Islam and showing the beauty of it, he even invited Peterson to that in the interview,, when he said you can be Jwesh and Christian and Muslims, by becoming Muslim!

@Alex21441 Год назад

but perhaps that is because you have a bias towards Hamza Yusuf or perhaps you did not see what Yahya Birt saw.

@notyourbus Год назад

@@Alex21441 Yes I did understand why you are assuming that? May be its you the bais not me? Every scholar pay attention to certain stuff more than others we are human not robats or Angles we are not cookie cutter! But criticism to each other like enemies and frame each other personally with stuff that are not real should stop in our religion circles. It's not character of prophet Muhammad and it certainly not brining any good! Rather than look at the other strong potential and the efforts and the effect that will strengthen us together! Put the emotions away.

@cledwards Год назад

No one? African Americans and Latinos have been interested in Islam and millions have converted since the late 60's but I guess they don't count. Too many immigrant Muslims are just eurocentric, unless a Anglo-Saxon shows interest in Islam its not a win.

@HSP9999 9 месяцев назад

If one were to listen very, very closely, without being lost in the long, charming eloquence of Yahya Birt, all he's saying was the sheikhs could've done better. The possibility of doing something better is endless, especially when we're currently living in the age of open criticism, where everyone has an opinion on how to do something better. However, the biggest limitation of this discussion is the absence of the sheiks mentioned to directly engage in a respectful discussion and exchanges of idea with Yahya Birt. Without them being present to hear directly from Yahya Birt, it simply leaves an unpleasant aftertaste. I humbly suggest that in the next discussions, where one scholar provides his opinion on how another could've done better, both should be present. Wallahu'alam. Hasbunallahu wani'mal wakil.

@AR-kz4zg Год назад

I'm not suggesting that Dr. Peterson's grasp of Islam and Muslims is deep and complete, he's quite lacking in it in fact and admits it too; part of the reason he invites Muslim scholars is to bridge that gap. But I think you're missing the point of his appeal altogether - he's been able to explain basic human behaviours and thinking to people at large, enabling them to deal with every day life because our own Muslim scholars have not been able to do that for the Muslims - to bring the every day things of Islam is small, implementable steps in their own life - their focus is either on worship alone or such basic things that leaves the Muslims, youth in particular, without guidance about how to deal with every day things - and no, the elders have not been able to provide that. So rather than looking at who he's promoting, find the actual cause of his popularity amongst the Muslim youth and bridge the gap yourselves; incidentally it is also the reason of Nouman Ali Khan's popularity - are we cancelling him next?

@idilhussein-ui5bd Год назад

I agree. One message that Nouman Khan and Mufti Menk use to resonate with the youth is Allah’s love no matter how bad their situation is the is hope in the Rahma of Allah to change. So many times our scholars have dwelled in the heroes of the past and mythologized their perfections. It is truly intimidating because clearly as much as we love our heroes it is hard to emulate their greatness when we do not see their humanity and the frailty. So it is easy for the Shaytan to create this barrier in our minds that we are not worthy of seeking Allah to begin with. Nouman Khan and Mufti Menk give the youth a different message. We may never attain the greatness of the Sahaba but we still have the door to Allah open we just have to try.

@waltershumer4211 Год назад

I admire Islam for standing up for its values, and wouldn't wish them to assimilate to Western liberal degeneracy, that said, multiculturalism is a failure wherever it is found it only breeds tribalism and warfare. A very unpleasant and unpopular thing to notice, but true nonetheless. The basic truth is that the more similar people are the easier they find it to get along and likewise the more different they are the more difficult it is for people to get along........ I do understand the reasons for migration and do not blame the migrants themselves, as I would do exactly the same thing in their position......... But........ Well I think you get the point. Assalamualaikum.

@alib7489 Год назад

A superb podcast. Yahya Birth is a towering intellectual and a credit to us British Muslims.

@robtecau4963 Год назад

He really isn't

@joshualilley973 Год назад

Hot take: What is this guy talking about? I don't like when people hide ignorant ideas in jargon. People love watching a few clips of Jordan Peterson and then laying on their opinion. The reason people like him is because he released one of the most incredible lecture series online but no one seems to talk about that anymore. White nativism? Isn't this just racism? Does it need a rebrand? It feels like you are inventing a villain, mainstream is a strong word. I don't think Boris Johnson can be simplified as a result of racism? Is this guy reading from a page? Why is it set up like a conversation when it's just a reading? These are not organic thoughts? I do share the concern that there has been some anti-LGBT backlash, but I think that is based on compelled speech and Marxist thinking rather than gay rights that have become mixed up. Peterson does not call for racism. I am really struggling to listen to this podcast, I am not sure that different immigration views other than liberal are inherently racist but I would also support a more liberal immigration policy. Big up Islam, but this guy keeps calling people with different ideas islamophobes, and it's just not helpful. His response about anti-racism being an internal process was really great. The podcast made me realize I am completely unaware of some modern concerns shared by the Muslim community and I appreciate that.

@jonathannadeau6218 Год назад

Racist content ? I unsubscribe right away.

@MSS-nt9ko Год назад

How is this racist?

@Rogerdowler Год назад

A good guest who highlighted very valid and interesting talking points. I found myself agreeing with his points on sh. Hamza especially with regard to his lack of pushback. I'm sure he has his reasons but I'd lije him to turn up the intellectual dial to refute points. I don't like seeing scholars dumb down... Woukd rather the audience raise their game. I do appreciate this point of sh A H Murads approach.

@alib7489 Год назад

I'm sure the podcast will survive now that you have unsubscribed.

@jonathannadeau6218 Год назад

@@alib7489 You should rejoice then.

@SgtButtface Год назад

@@Rogerdowler I think the discussion was primarily focused on the search for common ground rather than pushing each other into an ideological box. The claim that there wasn't enough pushback is to admit that you missed the point of the discussion in the first place