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Joseph Smith, seer stones, and ancient Jewish mysticism. Ep. 90 

Saints Unscripted
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Some people are weirded out when they hear about the miraculous ‘seer stones’ Joseph Smith used to aid in his translation of the Book of Mormon. To our modern sensibilities, that’s totally understandable. In this episode, Dave contextualizes the concept of seer stones in light of ancient Jewish Kabbalism, where they actually fit quite nicely. That said, this episode does not express official doctrines of the Church. These are just some of Dave’s observations that may shed some light on the topic of seer stones.
See video transcript here: saintsunscripted.com/faith-an...
Read the Book of Mormon online: bit.ly/2zygfQE
Our other episode on seer stones: bit.ly/2N2kHdw
Our episode on Noah and the tzohar: [We’ll put a link here]
Citations from Howard Schwartz’ book: bit.ly/2UvFNW5
Notes:
-For the record, I am not attempting to make the case in this video that Joseph Smith’s chocolate-colored seer stone was the same tzohar spoken of in ancient Jewish mysticism. I simply like how the story is able to contextualize Joseph’s use of a seer stone.
-Many of the folk magic practices of the Smith family were likely picked up from the spiritual practices of the Pennsylvania Dutch culture which existed near the Smiths. Many Pennsylvania Dutch practices were based on Kabbalism. This could explain how Joseph Smith came in contact with this practice. This idea shouldn’t cause Latter-day Saints any dissonance, as Joseph was quick to take truth from wherever he found it.
-It’s probably worth noting that (as far as I’m aware) it’s unclear where David Whitmer is getting his information about the translation from. There are other witnesses attesting to the fact that he put his seer stone in a hat and then peered into the stone by putting his face in the hat, and by so doing he was able to dictate the text of the Book of Mormon. But, it’s really unknown whether or not Joseph actually saw parchment through the stone, or whether Whitmer’s description of the orientation of those characters reflects reality or speculation. Those details aren’t altogether very important, but I thought I’d just make that point here.
-Other notable examples of divination or “magic” in the Bible (which believers call miracles):
-The prophet Gideon (Judges 6) determined the will of God by observing moisture (or the lack thereof) on a “fleece of wool” that he sets out to test God.
-Moses transfigures his staff into a snake (Exodus 7) as a sign to Pharaoh. Pharaoh’s magicians then do the same thing.
-The pool of Bethesda (John 5) was said to have magical healing properties after the water had been “troubled” by an angel at some point. Thus, when someone saw the water troubled, and entered in, they were healed.
-Paul performed miraculous healings (Acts 19) using handkerchiefs and aprons.
-There’s a strange story in Genesis 30 of Jacob causing his cattle to conceive by laying different kinds of rods in their watering troughs.
-Israelites suffering from poisonous snake bites are saved in Numbers 21 by merely looking at a brass serpent Moses had made and raised up on a pole.
-There’s some irony in the fact that while some Christians laugh at Joseph Smith’s use of a seer stone, some non-Christians laugh at the list above for the same reasons.
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22 сен 2020

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Комментарии : 347   
@dinocollins720
@dinocollins720 Год назад
Amazing review! Thank you!
@SaintsUnscripted
@SaintsUnscripted Год назад
Thanks for watching!
@dinocollins720
@dinocollins720 Год назад
@@SaintsUnscripted Thank you! Also, I would love to see a video about of all the earths why Christ came to this earth and why we came to this earth. One of my major gospel questions. I've heard a lot but would love to know more!!!
@travismix2844
@travismix2844 3 года назад
What about Micah chapter 5 were there is mention of destroying said stones?
@DragonZlayerx12
@DragonZlayerx12 Год назад
Where does it say that? The chapter is about Christ being born in Bethlehem, and the remnant of Jacob overcoming the gentiles in the last days.
@professorchimp1
@professorchimp1 3 месяца назад
Joseph destroyed a “Satanic” seer stone
@enesegoteqz8425
@enesegoteqz8425 3 года назад
Thats amazing keep up the great work brotha🙏🏽
@TofuTal
@TofuTal 3 года назад
Nice one, David! Always thought-provoking:)
@Elmorr562
@Elmorr562 Год назад
It’s also interesting that Joseph Smith helped us understand that when Jesus called Simon - Peter or Cephas the meaning of both is stone or Seer. It seems a little confusing to call him a stone, but to call him a seer stone makes much more sense.
@archangel_one
@archangel_one 8 месяцев назад
Peter means stone or piece of rock (pebble), not seer. Cephas is a "step up", it means rock.
@willnadauld
@willnadauld 4 месяца назад
Peter was the rock on which jesus built his church.
@edmundoalarcon2000
@edmundoalarcon2000 3 года назад
You should do an episode of Joseph Smith and the Masonic call of distress
@PipeSippingMason
@PipeSippingMason 3 года назад
As a LDS and a Free Mason.. it's not just the call of distress.. try grips, how those grips are taught etc. 😉
@edmundoalarcon2000
@edmundoalarcon2000 3 года назад
Yup you aren't wrong. Dont forget the The old penalties too. I'm both too /G\ and lds ;)
@PipeSippingMason
@PipeSippingMason 3 года назад
@@edmundoalarcon2000 always glad to meet another traveling man. I'm past master Lafayette Bible lodge #41 in NH. The way I view it, the majority of men who have accomplished great undertakings have been Masons, why not Joseph? Our rituals are God inspired, so by contributory factors, so are the temple ceremonies. 🙂 Be well my brother (squared) lol.
@IBNED
@IBNED 3 года назад
Who comes here? Someone who is in search of greater light out of the east? PM, Oriental #60, A.F. & A.M. of Idaho 2001. Good videos...
@PipeSippingMason
@PipeSippingMason 3 года назад
@@IBNED happy to meet you on the level brother.
@ronaldknight4703
@ronaldknight4703 2 года назад
Great vid
@Ellicinema
@Ellicinema 3 года назад
Where does the legend come from? Where can you read it, apart from the retelling in the book mentioned?
@mykingdom7121
@mykingdom7121 3 года назад
www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/history/topics/seer-stones
@mykingdom7121
@mykingdom7121 3 года назад
for me this channel is reliable (saints unscripted)
@webguyz1
@webguyz1 3 года назад
WHICH BOOK by Schwartz !?
@michiganabigail
@michiganabigail 3 года назад
Amazing as always!! Thank you!
@mykingdom7121
@mykingdom7121 3 года назад
Great video!!!!
@jjbentley9
@jjbentley9 2 года назад
So true I've came to this exact same realization lol 😆
@bkgoulding
@bkgoulding 3 года назад
One of your best videos yet!
@its_sohn
@its_sohn 3 года назад
This is a good video. Well done.
@SaintsUnscripted
@SaintsUnscripted 3 года назад
Glad you liked it! Thanks for the support.
@its_sohn
@its_sohn 3 года назад
@@SaintsUnscripted , you bet. Your ability to tie motifs together, typified by (but not limited to) the Spongebob reference ‘doesn’t this seem familiar’, is (in my eyes) remarkable work. The point was drilled home in a fun, creative, way that made the connection between the two Josephs undeniable *and* light hearted. A rare and beautiful balance. In my life, I have found it hard to drill home a point without coming off like a tool (disrespectful), but you nailed it here.
@heberfrank8664
@heberfrank8664 3 года назад
David Whitmer is not a good source. He was never a scribe for Joseph so he is a second hand source. And he was hostile to Joseph when he wrote the quote that you gave from him. The three primary scribes: Oliver, Martin and John (Whitmer) that did about 98% of the translating all repeatedly said that Joseph used the interpreters or Urim and Thummim to translate. Maybe they considered the seer stone the same thing, but that is not certain. It is likely that even with the interpreters Joseph used a hat.
@brettmajeske3525
@brettmajeske3525 3 года назад
I agree. To many people act like David Whitmer is some sort of smoking gun, when we may never fully know all of the historical details. Joseph claimed he translated by the Gift and Power of God, that is what may testimony is based on.
@mykingdom7121
@mykingdom7121 3 года назад
Juliette, does that mean you believe emma smith's testimony regarding the seer stone and then you also believe her testimony of the book of mormon? : Emma believed that the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God. Emma hale smith “[Joseph Smith] had neither a manuscript nor a book to read [while translating]… “If I had had something like that, I couldn't have hidden it… “Joseph Smith […] did not know how to write or dictate a coherent and well-written letter; much less dictate a book like the Book of Mormon. And although I actively participated in the situations that occurred […] I find it so wonderful, ‘a wonder and a prodigy’, as to any other person ... “My belief is that the Book of Mormon is of divine authenticity; I have not the slightest doubt about it. I am convinced that no man could have dictated the manuscripts if he had not been inspired, since when I was a scribe [of José], [José] dictated to me hour after hour; and when we resumed work after meals or an interruption, he immediately started where he left off, without even looking at the manuscript or having any part of it read to him. This is how I usually did it. It would have been unlikely that an educated man could do that; and for someone with as little knowledge and no formal education as he was, it was basically impossible ”(Emma Smith,
@johnlewis6526
@johnlewis6526 3 года назад
His hate towards of Joseph makes it a good source
@willnadauld
@willnadauld 4 месяца назад
Funny that your own church is now celebrating the peep stone joe used in a hat a mere 3 years after your post
@TruthSeekah
@TruthSeekah 2 года назад
So good. Thank you.
@bennevelynt4718
@bennevelynt4718 Год назад
That’s just what I needed.
@vincentvos3434
@vincentvos3434 4 месяца назад
Great show ! Having a Seer Stone is not weird.
@sleepingwithcats5121
@sleepingwithcats5121 Год назад
You are terrific! Thank you for being You.
@bellycow1357
@bellycow1357 3 года назад
Great video! All of this is really interesting
@reflectingplusplus
@reflectingplusplus 2 года назад
I like this guy 👍
@resaburke8220
@resaburke8220 Месяц назад
I read water energy too ❤
@samtate2011
@samtate2011 Год назад
Seer stones in a hat doesn't seem as weird when you watch people play VR 🤣🤣
@RyanMercer
@RyanMercer Год назад
I laugehd out loud, that was a good one 🤣🤣🤣
@nocturnoculto9445
@nocturnoculto9445 3 года назад
Muy buen trabajo hermano David !
@masonholman4306
@masonholman4306 3 года назад
verdad
@nocturnoculto9445
@nocturnoculto9445 3 года назад
Por favor hagan este video en español 🙏
@johnlewis6526
@johnlewis6526 3 года назад
David can you make a video about how to get a seer stone?
@n.d.m.515
@n.d.m.515 Месяц назад
A video doesn't need to be made about that. Read the Book of Revelation and it will tell you how.
@umhewow
@umhewow 2 года назад
So, why can you give a better explanation than the prophets ?
@faithburrington5144
@faithburrington5144 Год назад
Knowing the difference between the old covenant and the new covenant in the bible is key. That way you can understand why we say witchcraft is bad. Jesus came and was a perfect sacrifice. Sending down his spirit among all people so we can prophesy, have visions dream dreams just that way we can lift up the bidy of Christ.
@jamesbaldwin7676
@jamesbaldwin7676 Год назад
During the time that Joseph Smith was translating the Book of Mormon, he was under strict commandment from the Lord to keep everything well hidden. This included the plates and everything that came out of the ground. Therefore, whatever was seen by Martin Harris or anyone else (including Emma) was simply what was meant to be seen. So within the hat must have been the Urim and Thummim, while Joseph's little brown rock was just seen to be added (luckily a large, stove-pipe type hat.) Joseph's face now in the hat, effectively hid its contents from view. BTW, most of the local news papers of 1828, were printing that the U&T was in the hat. I think the Lord was also aware of this ruse (see D&C 5:4) The preface to the BofM specifically says that it was translated by "the gift and power of God and I don't think that include a pretty river rock found while digging a well. Joseph Smith buried his head in his hat to keep the U&T hidden from view and to be obedient to the commandment of the Lord (and for no other reason.) The rest is just a South Park Joke. I wish President Nelson had said something more along these lines instead of just acknowledging non LDS stories on National TV. And you won't read this anywhere else because it just came to me. Perhaps Joseph Smith did have other seer stones, just not for translating the BofM.
@archangel_one
@archangel_one 10 месяцев назад
He was supposed to have at least 3, as far as I can tell. And the Urim and Thummim would have been 14 stones. Joseph Smith claimed to have 2 of those in silver bows. It is unclear if his breastplate had the other 12 stones, one for each tribe? Regardless, those would have belonged to the High Priest of Israel. Makes you wonder if the LDS is practicing black magic.
@jamesbaldwin7676
@jamesbaldwin7676 10 месяцев назад
@@archangel_one The two stones set in a silver bow, were the Urim and Thummim. The breastplate may or may not have included the original stones which signified the tribes of Israel. His tiger-eye river rock, was his own and found while digging a well. I'm unaware of any other stones. And why was the use of such things part of the Bible, but "black Magic" today?
@archangel_one
@archangel_one 10 месяцев назад
@@jamesbaldwin7676 You are making my point, is the LDS practicing black magic by justifying its use? Abominable Practices Deu 18:9 When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations. Deu 18:10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, Deu 18:11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. Deu 18:12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee. Leviticus 20:27 A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.
@jamesbaldwin7676
@jamesbaldwin7676 10 месяцев назад
@@archangel_one Since when were the high priests in an ancient Hebrew temple, built under the command of the Lord (including the furniture and vestments,) part of the abominations that you're speaking of ?
@archangel_one
@archangel_one 10 месяцев назад
@@jamesbaldwin7676 Again, that's exactly what I'm talking about. This argument's sole purpose is to justify the use of black magic, right?
@vincentvos3434
@vincentvos3434 6 месяцев назад
Never had a problem with seer stones. All over the Old Testament.
@n.d.m.515
@n.d.m.515 Месяц назад
Can you list some Scriptural sources for more research, if it is all over the Old Testament. The only place I know of is the Book of Revelation.
@johnchausow4857
@johnchausow4857 3 года назад
Not doctrine but pretty interesting. Thanks!
@rogerpreble440
@rogerpreble440 Год назад
I have a bit of a problem with this video, and it's testimony from David Whitmer… It is historically accurate to point out that David Whitmer never participated in the translation process, nor did he ever serve as a scribe… His aforementioned testimony, many many years later, and he has conflicting testimony… Doctor and covenants section 10 verse number one tells us that Joseph used "urim & thummim Prophets and the written word, verses, intellectuals… I'll take the prophets
@1900intz
@1900intz 3 года назад
Nice video.
@PipeSippingMason
@PipeSippingMason 3 года назад
I think the facet that is difficult for others, is not the stones... but that Joseph Smith had a bad legal reputation for the same practice, to find hidden treasure. . . Its about context specificity 🤷‍♂️.
@brettmajeske3525
@brettmajeske3525 3 года назад
What about the reputation was bad? He was cleared of all charges. Such folk traditions were widely practiced at the time.
@PipeSippingMason
@PipeSippingMason 3 года назад
@@brettmajeske3525 not everyone extended a folk tradition, into a claim of prophecy from God, using the same technique. Yes he was cleared of the charges, but it was on the books for a reason. Using seeing stones to hunt for treasure, then a near identical method to translate the plates, is difficult on the legitimacy of it for many. I am writing objectively of how those who are not familiar with the church or the book of mormon, have merits to be suspicious.
@brettmajeske3525
@brettmajeske3525 3 года назад
@@PipeSippingMason "Yes he was cleared of the charges, but it was on the books for a reason." So you believe in guilty until proven innocent, but even then one probably deserved to be charged. I get how people unfamiliar with 1800 rural culture could be confused. Especially when people such as yourself seem to promote the confusion.
@PipeSippingMason
@PipeSippingMason 3 года назад
@@brettmajeske3525 easy keyboard warrior. I'm not promoting anything. I made a comment.. in a comment section.. stating that it was a chargeable offense on the books. I never said our profit was guilty. I am saying...fact, he use to use seeing stones to hunt for treasure... fact he was given similar instruments from God to translate the plates... probabilities of that causing reasonable suspicion.. is understandable... getting over excited about any thoughtful discussion on the matter..that's what adds to the problem.. I'll keep you in my prayers at sacrament tomorrow.
@imoutbye
@imoutbye 2 года назад
Practiced in his time. Does that mean it’s right? It was practiced in Europe. It was illegal there. Why?
@NatalieT587
@NatalieT587 3 года назад
Apologetics at its finest
@sampathrathnayaka3905
@sampathrathnayaka3905 3 года назад
These guys are so proud to say that they have college degrees, masters and phd's but still believe Smith looked at a stone in a hat and translate hieroglyphics into English :)
@imoutbye
@imoutbye 2 года назад
But so many, like us, we’re told something very different, at least until mid to late 2000s. Even then , that’s was just the beginning. It’s amazing isn’t it. So many people I know are good people, seem down to earth. But if they know this and still. I imagine it would be hard to accept if it was false if for so long you felt it was good.
@thehistoadian
@thehistoadian 10 месяцев назад
​@@sampathrathnayaka3905Yep we do. We believe the red sea was split for Moses and his people to flee to safety, we believe Jesus Christ was resurrected from the dead and that Joseph Smith restored the true Church of Jesus Christ
@hello-ox5rf
@hello-ox5rf Год назад
I am Jacob and I need my stone back
@actsismmljcorrectlyobeyed6190
@actsismmljcorrectlyobeyed6190 2 года назад
God's Holy works in miracles has ZERO to do with magic.
@alexwilliamns
@alexwilliamns 2 года назад
So what you’re saying is… If I leave the church over these issues, I should abandon my belief in an Abrahamic God altogether…?
@forzion1894
@forzion1894 7 месяцев назад
This is a nice attempt to rationalize the view that the Book of Mormon was translated using a peep stone found while Joseph was employed treasure digging, which he put in a hat rather than used to look at the plates. The problem is that this view is wrong. Joseph and Oliver, the two primary participants in the translation, both repeatedly stated in writing during their lifetimes that the translation came from the plates using the Jaredite/Nephite interpreters which came with the plates. A careful review of the sources relied on to support the peep stone narrative shows those sources to be late or secondhand, and problematic and unreliable. See the new book "By Means of the Urim & Thummim: Restoring Translation to the Restoration."
@willnadauld
@willnadauld 4 месяца назад
See your own church authoritys and there laughable so now you know videos..
@dr33776
@dr33776 15 дней назад
Do you accept Joseph smith owned seer stones? What do you think he used them for?
@TenthWardJenny
@TenthWardJenny 3 года назад
Why then, as missionaries, were we not teaching investigators about the the stone in a hat? Why was I, as a missionary, never told about a stone in the hat? Why was I always shown a completely different method of translation that is much more believable. You are gas lighting my entire seminary and institute experience. Never once was I informed about what you claim is no big deal. Not in thirty-five years! It made me wonder what else....
@Hamann9631
@Hamann9631 3 года назад
Jenny Lake2121. ??????????????????? I was told it was by the gift and power of God. That doesn't contradict GOD giving words on a stone.
@TenthWardJenny
@TenthWardJenny 3 года назад
@@Hamann9631 No, it ommits it, and is a thought terminating diversion. Again, why in thirty-five years of meticulous religious education, did the curriculum never discuss ALL of the known meanings of, "the gift and power of God?" It offered plenty of diverting alternative pictures and not once did the curriculum show an innocent, "scripturally common", stone in a hat. Not once, WHY?
@Hamann9631
@Hamann9631 3 года назад
@@TenthWardJenny What more believable translation method do you mean? I heard he looked into the Urim and Thummim. Looked into a device and looked into a device sound the same to me. Joseph was a poor frontier farmboy. I would find it harder to believe he used his human skills to translate. Your first comment ended with "It made me wonder what else...". I wonder if you are not a current member and are an ex-member or never a member trying to stir up trouble. You comment didn't seem reasonable to me. I hope I am wrong and we can laugh about this together in the Celestial Kingdom.
@TenthWardJenny
@TenthWardJenny 3 года назад
@@Hamann9631 Like I said, gaslighting! You know or should know the Church never presented or illustrated this form of "translation" until recently. You also know or should know missionaries have never previosly taught it to investigators. You are also being disingenuous by attacking my character rather than my complaint.
@Hamann9631
@Hamann9631 3 года назад
@@TenthWardJenny Art that the church puts into books isn't revelations and doctrine. You didn't say what method was taught before. The Preach My Gospel book doesn't tell how the translation was done? Was that in the newer editions? Did you do mind altering drugs when you were a missionary? When I was a missionary the how of translation was not in the lessons. Was the how in the older lesson from the 60's? What definition of "disingenuous" are you using? My comments were completely genuine. I don't see why a believing member of the church would trifle with such a thing as this. I don't see how a believing member of the church would be disturbed by this. There are people against the church who are willing to lie. It wouldn't be beneath a liar to claim to be a member (or anything else) to gain influence in other's minds.
@edmundoalarcon2000
@edmundoalarcon2000 3 года назад
Also the Cain is bigfoot theory episode would be awesome
@stephencholette1067
@stephencholette1067 3 года назад
Deuteronomy 18:10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth DIVINATION.... Divination goes on to be mentioned 32 more times, never in a positive light. Also to "Cast lots" means to gamble, much like rock, paper, scissors or drawing straws.
@archangel_one
@archangel_one 10 месяцев назад
Remember, the scoundrel (at the time) Joseph Smith was using that stone to call up spirits to find treasures. He would summon them, and they would show up where other spirits and the treasures were. This got him arrested as a "disorderly person" which was a person who told fortunes and found so-called treasure. If I understand correctly, his defense was a confession of the crime. This is the sin of wizardry or necromancy. Jewish mysticism is where we get witchcraft or wizardry from. We do not know if Joseph son of Jacob used his divining cup, someone, perhaps the pharaoh, probably gave it to him. Laban, Abraham's nephew, had a lot of gods and Rachael stole them. This does not make worshiping those gods okay. Technically, cleromancy was not used by Israel for the same reason that we do not say Jesus was practicing magic when He worked miracles. Urim and Thummin were to be used only by the priest. Joseph Smith was certainly dabbling in the occult and using magic with the seer stone. 1:00 seems to be inferring that black magic and witchcraft is okay. 2:30 Enoch did NOT see Hebrew letters since Eber had not even been born yet. Why would anyone believe that God was behind seeking after money and treasures? AND remember, Joseph failed to find those treasures, including the missing 116 pages. Is any of this of God? This begs the questions: Is the LDS practicing or sanctioning witchcraft? Are they using Smith's seer stone? Why not use the stone to find the Gold Plates, the missing 116 pages, or even their car keys? Is Saints Unscripted practicing black magic? I hope not, but this is a legitimate question, isn't it?
@xxxgabaxxx
@xxxgabaxxx 8 месяцев назад
Thanks for putting some logic into his arguments.
@archangel_one
@archangel_one 8 месяцев назад
@@xxxgabaxxx When they go out of their way to defend witchcraft, I always have to wonder if they are practicing it.
@thething7484
@thething7484 4 месяца назад
The missing 116 pages were predicted by God which is why Nephi made an abridgment and that’s what we have today, it was also revealed to Joseph that this was going to happen before it did.
@archangel_one
@archangel_one 4 месяца назад
@@thething7484 Joseph Smith made it up. He lied to them and knew that there was no way for him to reproduce an exact copy. If he was of God, if it was legitimate, it would have been easy. But then there is the other problem -- God just does not play these Treasure Guardian games, Satan does.
@sumguyfromutah
@sumguyfromutah 3 года назад
Betcha most of those quotes were somewhat true... except for the part where Enoch gets Hebrew letters on his stone. Wrong son! Enoch spoke Adamic. He was around before the LORD confounded the language of the people.
@BrendonKing
@BrendonKing 3 года назад
Whups.
@bradrjones1
@bradrjones1 3 года назад
If it happens in the bible it's nonsensical too.
@TenthWardJenny
@TenthWardJenny 3 года назад
After lengthy discussion with people on this channel, I decided to watch it again through their eyes. I am still just as stupefied at the Church, pivoting the state of my family, for eternity, on my willingness, or even ability, to believe Joseph Smith "translated(?)" the Book of Mormon by looking into a 'stone in a hat' that showed him (word by word) what to write. Before this, I could believe the words settling into his heart and mind through study, prayer and the holy ghost, (as I was originally taught) and as the HG seems to work today. But the stone? I just can't do it, it's too far! If I believe that, what can I not believe? Is there really a toy factory at the North Pole? Can reindeer really fly on Christmas? What stability of mind is left? What happened to the concept that "God works through natural means to bring about his righteous purposes?" And because I have critical faculties that resist surrendering logical and rationale to the extraordinary, I am to be the outcast, the "Natural Man"? Something is wrong here! There is no way for me to say, I can't believe this and still be in good standing? How can this be? There should be no wonder why the Church kept this a "dare not say", before the Internet. Shame on this video and its creators. Shame on you for intentionally encouraging people to surrender reliable cognition. This is the same mind bending that flies airplanes into buildings and you are lucky some of us are resisting.
@brettmajeske3525
@brettmajeske3525 3 года назад
Ok. I do not understand why using the Urim and Thumin are ok, but a Seer Stone is too far. According to David's research there is a long transition of Seer Stones being associated with Noah, Abraham, and Joseph (of the many colored coat). They are interesting curiosities. I depend on the witness of the Holy Ghost for my testimony of the Book of Mormon. I admit I find the linguistics and textual analysis fascinating, but that is not the source of my testimony.
@TenthWardJenny
@TenthWardJenny 3 года назад
@@brettmajeske3525 You know you are right, it calls all of that into question in a new way. I have always thought of th HG as a witness when no other evidence is available but when actual evidence exists and is available, that evidence must be reconciled. You are right, I need to reconsider those thing now too.
@mykingdom7121
@mykingdom7121 3 года назад
Brett Majeske Great comment!
@victorrene3852
@victorrene3852 2 года назад
It's not hypocritical or ironic because the Bible itself says not to practice these things outside God's word. Joseph Smith was into the occult and folk magic of the time. He used the stone to seek treasure. Even went to court for it. The Bible never says Joseph practice divination. Rather He emphasized that interpretation is of God.
@user-ts8sn5ts2z
@user-ts8sn5ts2z 3 месяца назад
It's a real stretch on your part claiming the Bible is full of examples that are no different then what JS did. The Bible clearly forbids divination and occultist behavior The Word of God does not support your claims.
@anthonyrippa686
@anthonyrippa686 3 года назад
You said that the criticism is this: "If it's in the Bible they (assuming you mean protestant critics (I won't include Catholics because they have a lot of mystical stuff)) consider it divine. If not, then it's superstition and magical." BUT ... isn't the latter what the Church teaches? That we are to stay well away from mystical and magical practices? That revelation doesn't work that way. That God speaks in a small still voice. And even the Book of Mormon itself says we should not seek God "through wizards that PEEP and mutter" (2 Nephi 18:19).
@KevlarX2
@KevlarX2 3 года назад
There is a huge difference in man using objects and practices, and God's servants using objects and practices that are given to them to use by God's authority. Moses used a rod to touch the water and make it part, turn to blood, etc. There was a pole with a snake emblem used by the wandering Jews who were healed by looking upon it. The walls of Jericho fell by the jews marching around it seven times blowing trumpets. Elisha sent a messenger to tell a man to wash in the Jordan river seven times to be healed of leprosy. The Bible talks about seers using seer stones. There was the Ark of the covenant. Blood over the doorways from an unblemished sheep that protected the jews from death of their first born. Many other things in the scriptures. It is not mysticism and magical practices when objects and rituals are used with the Lords will.
@anthonyrippa686
@anthonyrippa686 3 года назад
@@KevlarX2 I agree with you. Time for us to stop being so coy about magic.
@Hamann9631
@Hamann9631 3 года назад
@@davidjanbaz7728 So, christians use a mispronouncement of hell to blasphemously call power to their words? Wow. Actually, since The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a christians church, there are christians who say, "God says, yes.".
@Hamann9631
@Hamann9631 3 года назад
@@davidjanbaz7728 We don't believe the traditional christian version of hell. However we believe there will be a place for murderers, unchaste people, etcetera after final judgement. There will be a small number of people who will end up spending eternity with the devil after final judgement. We believe people will suffer for the sins which haven' t been forgiven in spirit prison. So we do believe in hell in those ways. Some of us have said we don't believe in hell. They are wrong.
@Hamann9631
@Hamann9631 3 года назад
@@davidjanbaz7728 And you are a christian too. There are many different fully christian sects of christianity.
@brianlee445
@brianlee445 10 месяцев назад
Those who practice magic shall not enter into New Jerusalem. Same as a lover of lies and the sexually immoral. Revelation of John
@TaylorYorgason
@TaylorYorgason 3 года назад
First.
@lynnanderson4011
@lynnanderson4011 Год назад
If you’re going to reference the Bible you might as well reference ’The lord of the ring’ or ‘The Hobbit’. The Bible are just folk stories taken literally, if Babe and his blue ox were a story back then they would be in the Bible too
@Steph-dz9jb
@Steph-dz9jb Год назад
Do the Jewish Mystical Tales say anything about Enoch or Jacob or Joseph defrauding their neighbors with fraudulent treasure hunting using their peep stone like Joseph Smith did? Where they brought up on trial for it as Joseph Smith was? It’s pretty clear that JS had to give up being a treasure seer and decided to start an entirely new line of work by starting an offshoot of the Christian religion.
@BrendonKing
@BrendonKing 3 года назад
There are "false traditions", and then there is "blasphemy". One is something that God has SPECIFICALLY FORBIDDEN WITH ZERO TOLERANCE, and the other is a false tradition.
@jasonm7973
@jasonm7973 3 года назад
Deuteronomy 18:10 I'm not surprised the same church who "restored the temple veil" that God tore in half, also condones and explains away the bedrock of their church being steeped in divination that the bible forbids over 200 times. Jeremiah 14:14 ESV And the Lord said to me: “The prophets are prophesying lies in my name. I did not send them, nor did I command them or speak to them. They are prophesying to you a lying vision, worthless divination, and the deceit of their own minds. Joseph smith was also known to give prophesies that did not come to pass disqualifying him of the status of a legitimate prophet of God. Martin harris was the town dupe and converted religions over 30 times in his life and also signed other documents recognizing various other people were prophets, could see into the future ECT. Not to mention the fact that the modern leadership is willing to accept blatant forgeries such as the salamander letter and present them as groundbreaking discoveries if it suits their agenda. You don't need secret handshakes to get into heaven people.
@BrendonKing
@BrendonKing 3 года назад
But I got ‘em just in case! 😂
@brendanwilsonvfx5705
@brendanwilsonvfx5705 3 года назад
Legit what Deuteronomy says right there is done in the very bible Deuteronomy is in. I think Deuteronomy is explaining things that don't have to do with the God of Israel. You can Either Discount Deuteronomy right there because those things do in fact happen in the bible (For God's Use) Or you Can Discount those Portions of the Bible that have these practices because of the Deuteronomy Verse. God works through Objects all the time, Hense the Bible, But! it goes south and dangerous when you leave God out of the Situation, or Dont Use it for God's Purposes. Hense why Joseph Smith would say "By the 'Gift' and Power Of God.
@BrendonKing
@BrendonKing 3 года назад
trevor anderson there’s nothing biblical about them. They were lifted straight from Masonry as well as the names and the arbitrary punishments that went with them.
@brendanwilsonvfx5705
@brendanwilsonvfx5705 3 года назад
@@davidjanbaz7728 Okay so this is ""my"" point of view thus far, sorry i didnt word that well. “Every man who lived on the earth,” Joseph said to them, “was entitled to a seer stone, and should have one, but they are kept from them in consequence of their wickedness, and most of those who do find one make evil use of it.” (Brigham Young’s journal, as quoted in Latter-day Millennial Star, 26:118,119) This is Joseph’s View on Seer Stones, and there's History of Seer Stones being used for not so good Uses as (Deuteronomy 18:10) explains, We Must not turn to our Own ways, But instead lean to God and be helped by and with gifts given to us by Christ to help us on our journeys along side of christ, Gifts From Christ, and Because of Christ. We could not receive blessings or gifts if not for his atonement and him helping us. Crystals, Gems can be used (For God's Use) Or you Can Discount the Portions of the Bible that have these practices because of what the Deuteronomy Verse says. God works through Objects all the time, Hence the Bible, But! it goes south and dangerous when you leave God out of the Situation, or Dont Use it for God's Purposes. Hence why Joseph Smith would say "By the 'Gift' and Power Of God. When I think about this Subject from the Point of View from the Witnesses of Jesus Christ Given in the Book Of Mormon. I Come to this Verse: Moroni 7 16/ or 7 13 (((for every """"thing"""" which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God. But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil;))) Many Cultures Have Felt and People Feel that Certain stones can give or help someone with the stone certain attributes, it’s felt that stone’s have abilities that can either Help or Harm us with their Powers. This is why they are so Dangerous, Like Joseph Smith and Deuteronomy Described Above. But also very helpful for becoming more Christ- like, or having help to follow Christ. Brigham Young Once Said - everything in nature has a spirit. “The spirit constitutes the life of everything we see. Is there life in these rocks, and mountains? There is. Then there is a spirit peculiarly adapted to those rocks and mountains.... There is a spirit nicely adapted to the various productions of the vegetable kingdom.”3 I Think About For Example (Rose Quartz: It’s Known for having the Quality of Helping People Be Really Loving, Compassionate, Serving, and Thoughtful of Others. These To Me Sound Like Very Christ like Qualities to have. And Can Help you obtain more christ like attributes from that Gift of God, (((Especially if Sanctified or Consencrated for God, so it can’t be used for evil.))) sanctified To set apart for sacred use; consecrate: The preacher sanctified the ground as a cemetery. To make holy; purify I Don’t see why this can’t be done for God’s Purposes.
@davidsnell2605
@davidsnell2605 3 года назад
For those interested in learning more about the qualms Jason raises in his original comment, feel free to check out the following episodes that may shed some more light on each topic: "Was Joseph Smith a false prophet?" ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-dd5OpiYxI-s.html "Did Martin Harris actually see the golden plates?" ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-rLfD9hqxMMg.html (There are also episodes on David Whitmer and Oliver Cowdery, and more are coming on the many other witnesses) "The Salamander Letter and the Mark Hoffmann forgeries" ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-zPiCkEEOa-U.html
@cultfiction3865
@cultfiction3865 3 года назад
Thanks for this. Unfortunately you have given out some inaccurate information here. Let me explain why. Deuteronomy 18:10-13 “There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, 11 or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. 12 For all who do these things are an abomination to the Lord, and because of these abominations the Lord your God drives them out from before you.” Now that was part of the old law given to Israel by Yahweh. Now even though we are not under that same law today God does give us an indication about how he feels about such practices. Now what you have done is mix up and confuse miracles with folk magic and divination and they are not the same thing at all. The key difference is this. Miracles use the power of Almighty God. Magical practices and divination use the power of fallen angels. Angels that are on satans side and not on Gods side. They have supernatural power too and can achieve magical acts. The urim and thummim were tools God used directly but it wasn’t divination. Divination draws on demons it doesn’t draw from God. In the New Testament is a story of a girl that had a spirit of divination and could foretell events and when the demon was cast out of her she lost that ability. I’m not familiar with the casting lots about Judas but in the case of Joseph, he used the claim that he used the cup to divine as a cover story. At the time he was hiding his true identity from his brothers. But that is not evidence that he was actually practicing divination. Most Egyptians did practice divination and magical arts since it was a heavily pagan nation so Jospeh likely used this as a cover story to mask his identity. But it says nowhere in the bible that he interpreted dreams in this fashion. What you are doing here is confusing miracles with magical arts. In reality they are as different as day is from night.
@johnchausow4857
@johnchausow4857 3 года назад
I think the main problem here is that you’re assuming what David presented in the video is be presented as fact. David was very clear that this was simply an interesting theory. You’re holding him to a standard he never set out to achieve.
@johnchausow4857
@johnchausow4857 3 года назад
david janbaz we can still look at interesting theories even if we don’t believe them to be 100% accurate. Also the Bible doesn’t tell all of what happened. It simply tells a small portion of what happened, like how the Book of Mormon doesn’t even cover “a hundredth part”. It’s possible Christ gave the apostles permission to cast lots or to use whatever craft or “magic” necessary for a very limited amount of time, similar to how polygamy has been allowed by God for short periods, or when Nephi essentially murdered Laman. Murder in that case was deemed justifiable under the circumstances. Moving on, perhaps God felt that with Christ being crucified, the “ox was in the mire”, so to speak. We don’t have all the facts, we can only speculate a little bit. That’s what makes these theories interesting. Speculation is not immoral or sinful so long as we do not commit other sins to do so.
@cultfiction3865
@cultfiction3865 3 года назад
John Chausow David said that the book was an interesting theory but he also falsely stated that Joseph used divination, that Jesus apostles used it and that the high priests of Israel uses it with the urim and thummim in spite of the fact that divination was a condemned practice. So it’s more than just a theory that is been spoken of here
@johnchausow4857
@johnchausow4857 3 года назад
david janbaz is encourage you to take another look at polygamy. Doctrinally speaking, it was the will of God and allowed when done under his direction and lead by the authority of his appointed prophets. We have no evidence that modern or ancient prophets sinned when following God’s specific direction to have multiple wives.
@cultfiction3865
@cultfiction3865 3 года назад
John Chausow I agree than in Old Testament times Polygamy was never a sin. King Solomon was Gods anointed king and had 700 wives and 300 concubines. Whether polygamy is wrong or right relates to the culture more than it does morality itself. It was Eve that brought original sin upon mankind and it’s the curse that Eve brought upon her offspring that her craving would be for her husband. Her husband would be the one that would take the lead more. It’s always been that way in the bible, modern sensibilities mean pretty much nothing in the context of thousands of years of history
@lynnanderson4011
@lynnanderson4011 Год назад
Haha oh wow… so the Mormons think it’s really cool and prophetic that Joseph in the Old Testament had the same name? Haha Joseph wrote the BofM which is why there’s Bible errors in it and nothing can be proved. He used several books to put together the BofM.
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